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INSIDE AFRICA

Interview With Rwandan President Paul Kagame; Interview With Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo

Aired September 17, 2005 - 12:30:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANAND NAIDOO, GUEST HOST (voice-over): The United Nations General Assembly as seen through the eyes of some African leaders. Did the continent get what it came for? We'll hear from Rwanda President Paul Kagame and Ugandan leader Yoweri Moseveni.

Nigerian President Obasanjo on the war against corruption in his country.

Plus, four years after its launch, just how is NEPAD faring?

And the United Nations experiment that's helping to cut the poverty rate in one Kenyan village.

This is INSIDE AFRICA.

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NAIDOO: Hello, and welcome to the program. I'm Anand Naidoo, in for Femi Oke.

The United Nations Millennium Summit concludes this weekend. Many African leaders attending had hoped that the gathering would have made decisions to alter the balance of power, and give Africa a greater voice at the U.N. But in the end, much did not change. Hala Gorani looks at reaction from some of the continent's leaders.

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HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some of the most powerful people in the world meeting at the United Nations. Many of them, like South Africa's President Thabo Mbeki, dissatisfied with what they've accomplished at this year's General Assembly.

THABO MBEKI, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: The only saving grace with regard to this miserable performance is that as it closed, the 59th General Assembly reaffirmed our commitment to strengthen the United Nations.

GORANI: A commitment to strengthen the United Nations.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: We have not yet achieved the sweeping and fundamental reform.

GORANI: But the failure to agree on what many see as much-needed reforms is one of the very reasons President Mbeki calls this year's gathering a failure. African nations were pushing for a new Security Council structure, one that would give them two veto-wielding seats. But because of opposition from current permanent members, including the United States and China, the issue was deferred to a later date.

President Thabo Mbeki minced no words in expressing his frustration when he addressed the General Assembly.

MBEKI: The actions of the rich and the powerful strongly suggest that these are not in the least convinced that the security consensus would serve their interests. Thus they use their power to perpetuate the power imbalance in the ordering of global affairs.

GORANI: But opponents of the expansion plan say it would further paralyze the U.N., preventing it from acting in a crisis. Even one African president took a shot at his colleagues for demanding permanent seats on the Security Council.

YOWERI MUSEVENI, UGANDAN PRESIDENT: Power relation in the United Nations are a reflection of the power relations on the ground. You can't be weak on the ground and then expect to be strong in the United Nations. Who'll listen to you? This is more or less a culmination of your power build-up, of the influence build-up, of your development. Let's do our homework first.

GORANI: Reform is not the only issue dividing the world body. The U.N. is now saying the so-called Millennium Development Goals of reducing poverty by half by 2015 will not be met, and members are at odds over what is responsible. Some countries say trade tariffs and Western farm subsidies hurt poor countries' trade with the West. U.S. President George W. Bush is now promising action, but only if other nations act too.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States is ready to eliminate all tariffs, subsidies and other barriers to free flow of goods and services as other nations do the same.

GORANI: In the end, it would seem that neither Africa nor the rest of the world was satisfied with the outcome of the gathering, sending a signal that on many of the issues confronting the U.N. today, the task ahead may continue to be a divisive one.

Hala Gorani, CNN Center.

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NAIDOO: Rwandan President Paul Kagame is one leader who's been very critical of the United Nations because of its reaction to the 1994 genocide in his country. He was in Atlanta this weekend. He shared his thoughts on this week's General Assembly with CNN's Hala Gorani.

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GORANI: Now, one of the solutions that some African countries are proposing is permanent seats on the U.N. Security Council, veto-wielding seats on the U.N. Security Council. But it seems as though permanent members, including the United States, have pushed back that debate. What would your message be to the U.S. with regards to that?

PAUL KAGAME, RWANDAN PRESIDENT: My message is - is very simple. In the governing the whole world, I think the international system has to be - ceased to be representative of all the parts of these world in which we're living. And therefore, the formula has to be found as to how to make this - the governing over this international system more representative, more participatory. So, a formula had to be found. Whether you involve two countries, or one or three or how many, is a question of representativity. And I think the United States has, like any other countries, has to take into account that there has to be more representativity in making decisions that affect everybody in this world.

GORANI: Are you very disappointed with the outcome of this summit as Thabo Mbeki, the South African president, says he is? Are you disappointed?

KAGAME: Well, I'm sure people, even myself, we're disappointed in a sense that sometimes we are not making headway as fast as we should and as effective as we should.

Yet, the issues confronting all of us, very complex issues, very difficult issues that affected the lives of people, and billions of lives of people on this planet. So, there should be forward movement on a number of issues that are discussed. We can't discuss it for the sake of discussing, and going on and on and on. And I think we should discuss with the aim of making conclusions on very important issues, and to be able to put practical measures in place that will deliver on what we're trying to achieve.

GORANI: Now, you've been recognized as a leader who has helped Rwanda move on from that shocking genocide that happened the mid-1990s, in '94. But at the same time you've also been criticized. I mean, groups like Amnesty International, for instance, and I'm sure you're aware -- and I just want to quote them so I make sure I get this exactly right -- that "the government continues to suppress political opposition of those critical of your government's policies, and that members, for instance, of the Democratic Republican Movement continue to be arrested and harassed."

What is your reaction to accusations that you're not letting democracy flourish in Rwanda as much as you should or could?

KAGAME: That's not true. I think the most - what I think this (INAUDIBLE) this organizations should recognize progress, really fundamental progress that has been made in Rwanda. Very - Rwanda is better off today than at any other time in its history. And progress is going to be -- to be made, and of course Rwanda is emerging out of a very difficult situation, which - in which it was put into by genocide, by the history of genocide that goes back decades. And we accept the criticism, so we want to discuss what issues we - people think we're not being right, but overall, I think we're scoring very high in .

GORANI: So .

KAGAME: . democracy, on human rights, on economic development, on issues of accountability. In the last 11 years, perhaps we have done more than any other country you can talk about in this region. So I think these organizations - their job is actually to make criticisms, and they think when it is your job .

GORANI: And it's criticism you accept?

KAGAME: . it becomes very easy. No, their criticism is debatable.

GORANI: All right, President Paul Kagame, thank you so much for being with us.

KAGAME: Thank you. Pleasure, thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NAIDOO: Still ahead, Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo reacts to allegations of corruption in his government. Don't go away.

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NAIDOO: Welcome back. One thing that came out of this week's General Assembly is that the goals the U.N. set for itself to reduce poverty will not be met, especially in Africa. In fact, the number of poor people on the continent is on the rise. Among factors blamed is massive corruption.

Nigeria is one country that's often singled out. President Olusegun Obasanjo tells CNN's Jonathan Mann how he is trying to tackle that.

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JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Mr. President, thank you so much for talking with us. Can I ask you about the demonstrations against fuel price increases, which touch a great many people and anger many people, coming at a time when Nigeria in theory should be getting a windfall from rising fuel prices?

OLUSEGUN OBASANJO, NIGERIAN PRESIDENT: Jonathan, I think you got it all wrong. We're getting a windfall, and that windfall is what I made to deal with the issue of infant mortality, maternal mortality, education, health delivery, water supply. Now, if I use that windfall in just burning up on the roads for those people who have three or four cars, how do I deal with the issues that are really issues concerning the ordinary people? And demonstration, marches, protests are part of democracy. Now, you have that in every, every democratic country.

MANN: Well, I am intrigued watching what's unfolding, because as someone who is - lives outside of your country, Nigeria exports so much oil but it imports - correct me if I am wrong -- more than half of its fuel, because of its refinery situation, and there are people in your country, who at least tell journalists, foreign journalists like myself, that the reason they think Nigeria is importing so much gasoline, so much fuel is because people in the government are getting rich off of it. Is there any truth to that?

OBASANJO: There is absolutely no truth to that. We had a problem, before this administration came in, of infrastructural decay, whether its physical infrastructure or human infrastructure, for many years.

Take our energy. We have installed capacity to produce 6,000 megawatts. When we came in six years ago, we could only produce 1,400, because those equipment have not been maintained, and no investment in power generation.

The same applies to refinery. And in fact, today for all our refineries, and there is none of them that is left than 20 years old. All of them are producing up to 75 percent or more. Now, for an old refinery, or an old equipment, you won't see that (INAUDIBLE) that what has happened is that we have not - if all our refineries produced to maximum, to optimum that they can produce, they would produce about 18 million liters of oil a day. We're now consuming about 30 million liters. So, even if all our refineries produced to their maximum capacity, we would still need to import 12 million liters of oil a day.

MANN: Well, I approach the subject gingerly, because you are a head of state, and you have been good enough to talk to us, but there are allegations of corruption that have been made about you, and you're taking them seriously.

OBASANJO: Yes. I take it seriously.

MANN: The allegations, and once again, I stand to be corrected, are that you have been - and these are the allegations -- received commissions on oil payments, and that there is money hidden overseas in your name or on your behalf.

OBASANJO: If you get that, Jonathan, anybody who says that, tell him to discover where that money is, and to make it public, and I will .

MANN: I don't mean to accuse you. I do mean to ask you, though, if you have taken steps .

OBASANJO: Yes.

MANN: . on this.

OBASANJO: Yes.

MANN: What exactly is your government doing to try and disprove this?

OBASANJO: (INAUDIBLE). You accuse me?

MANN: No, no, sir. Let me -- let me - let me make it clear. I have read these accusations and read that you have in fact, asked your own government agencies to look into this.

OBASANJO: OK. Then what more do you do in my own case? What else would you do? We have such in our own country agencies that when you make allegation, you pass it on to, and I - I even instructed this against this, I say, carry out clerical (ph) investigation, clerical (ph) investigation. You can't do more than that, and you tell me any leader in the world that have done that.

MANN: Let me ask you about another - and this is -- this is more recent news, and I'm wondering if you are troubled by this -- that police in Britain have now announced that they've arrested the governor of a state in Nigeria.

OBASANJO: Yes.

MANN: Do you know - do you know this - this information that I'm giving you now?

OBASANJO: I got this information yesterday.

MANN: Can you tell us about what you know and how serious you think it is? Because once again, it also, fairly or unfairly, raises the question of corruption within high - high in government?

OBASANJO: Well, the fact that the police arrested this man, no matter his position, is in fact an indication that our anticorruption measures are working. Now, in the history of Nigeria, up to the life of this administration, nobody so highly placed have been arrested and been charged. Is it because they haven't committed offence? That's because we are leading and we are telling the world that this is what we are doing. Like the example that you have mentioned, that I was accused, and I say, well, I am open for investigation. Go ahead.

Now, if I do that, all our friends will know that, well, nobody, nobody, no sacred cow, and that is what has happened, and that is what is happening.

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NAIDOO: Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo talking to CNN's Jonathan Mann.

Still ahead, NEPAD's progress in South Africa and a UN test village in Kenya. Stay with us.

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NAIDOO: Hello again. In 2001 -- excuse me -- the New Partnership for Africa's Development, or NEPAD was launched by African leaders to help lift the continent out of poverty. Now, four years on, at least in some countries, critics say there is no sign of NEPAD in poor communities. Alphonso Van Marsh reports.

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ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the well-paved road between South Africa's money capital Johannesburg, and its gambling haven, Sun City, lies in oasis of poverty, with ranging unemployment, where water and electricity are unreliable, and where car repairman Sidney Mokgalane can only watch the rich drive by.

SIDNEY MOKGALANE, AUTO BODY MECHANIC: Every day (INAUDIBLE) there's limousines, presidents pass, ministers. Sometimes (INAUDIBLE) people on Fridays and Saturdays. It's too much (INAUDIBLE).

VAN MARSH: But no stops, Sidney says, by the people of NEPAD, the New Partnership for African Development. NEPAD's mandate since 2001: To help people like Sidney rise from poverty and bring development to areas like this and across the continent.

(on camera): A lot of the families who settle into these neighborhoods were originally drawn to jobs in the mines, but today many of those families say that South Africa's path of development doesn't stop here.

HASSEN LORGAT, ACTION AGAINST POVERTY: Even (INAUDIBLE) really owned by the people, it needs to start doing some very basic things.

VAN MARSH (voice-over): Hassen Lorgat is with the Global Call to Action Against Poverty.

LORGAT: It has to mean something to the poor and the working people of Africa.

VAN MARSH: He is among critics who say the organizations spends a lot of time talking about development plans, not as much implementing them.

LORGAT: We always meet NEPAD people in the conference. It seems that there is this insatiable desire for NEPAD to be selling itself to others.

VAN MARSH: Take this week's NEPAD's subcommittee meeting at a five- star hotel, chaired by South Africa's government point person for NEPAD issues.

GERALDINE FRASER-MOLEKETI, S. AFRICAN PUBLIC SERV. MIN: We're working towards .

VAN MARSH: Despite four years of planning, NEPAD's communications department in South Africa, the group's home base, told CNN it has no active development programs up and running in this country. But they say they are busy with plans to open a South African Internet school next month.

South African authorities say, be patient.

FRASER-MOLEKETI: I'd actually wonder whether Rome was built in a day, not in South Africa. Our democracy is but 11 years old. And very clearly, we need to ensure that we join into the various NEPAD programs that will be in order to expand it throughout our country as we do throughout our region.

VAN MARSH: At this meeting, NEPAD launched a survey asking South Africans how the group can better serve them. But the questionnaire is 88 pages long, with questions like "To what extent is your country's macroeconomic policy framework sound and supportive of sustainable development?"

This may be beyond some South Africans like Sidney. He says NEPAD could instead start a project here that might help him give his 5-year old daughter a better chance in life. But he is not optimistic.

MOKGALANE: I want (INAUDIBLE) go to school and finish up, and - and be sometimes a doctor or anything, I don't know.

VAN MARSH (on camera): Do you think she'll wind up living here?

MOKGALANE: Yeah.

VAN MARSH (voice-over): Alphonso Van Marsh, CNN, Bapo, South Africa.

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NAIDOO: To help African countries improve the living standards on the continent, the U.N. set up case studies, giving small villages education on health, agriculture and energy. Gladys Njoroge looks over one Millennium Village in Sauri, Kenya.

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GLADYS NJOROGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A bountiful harvest, unlike any farmers like this hardworking mother of two have ever seen before. In just a year, a United Nations experiment in Sauri, Western Kenya, has helped farmers here double their maze yields.

Monica says she has food to feed her family, seed for the next year, plus enough left over to make a profit.

"They've given us capital," she says, "just like when you want to start a business, you're given a loan. So they've given us a loan to start a business. We now have the strength to be self-sufficient."

More than half of the 5,000 villagers couldn't afford three meals a day. Inaccessible health care could be a death sentence. Many have died from malaria and AIDS.

These are the factors, says economist Jeffrey Sachs, that qualified Sauri village as a test case.

JEFFERY SACHS, DIR., MILLENIUM PROJECT: The idea being that every village in this continent by 2015 ought to be a place where there is connectivity, where there is a clinic, where there is a school, where farmers are earning a livelihood.

NJOROGE: The goal is to reduce the number living in poverty in half by investing what amounts to $70 U.S. per person over the next five years. However, development experts are skeptical about the survival of the project once the U.N. moves on when current funding expires. They point to what some called a sluggish peace at which African governments are tackling the U.N. goals, set at the turn of the century, of reducing the number of poor people by half by 2015.

DOROTHY MCCORMICK, UNIVERSITY OF NAIROBI: Five years on, we should be at least one third of the way there. And yet, we have goals where we have actually backtracked in the five years. So, to say that we will make, for example, the child mortality goal, we have to not only turn it around, but we have to catch up with what has happened in the last five years. And that will take a lot.

NJOROGE: While Kenya has made strides by introducing free primary education, people here, as in most rural areas, were too hungry to learn.

GEORGE OUMA, PUPIL: And I've been seeing some students, children even (INAUDIBLE) children can carry out their (INAUDIBLE). But long time, it was very important.

NJOROGE (on camera). This classroom has now been converted to a temporary green store, thanks to better farming methods. And scenes like these ones are being replicated in many homes in this village, due to an unexpected bump of harvest.

(voice-over): In the past, projects like this have had initial success only to fail when the dollars stop funding it. The coordinator here insists this project is different.

PATRICK MUTUO, PROJECT COORDINATOR: We have learned from past mistakes, and we're trying to capitalize on those mistakes and the good points, so that we're trying to make this one not to fail.

NJOROGE: Failure that so far has left millions mired in poverty.

Gladys Njoroge, for INSIDE AFRICA, Sauri, Western Kenya.

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NAIDOO: The Millennium Village Project in Sauri is also applying science-based interventions in schools to help alleviate poverty. A 13- year old student from Kenya's Sauri primary school, Paul Alexander Oloo, recently sent Secretary-General Kofi Annan an e-mail thanking the U.N. for its work in the village. The secretary-general replied.

That is our look inside Africa this week. I'm Anand Naidoo.

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