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Nancy Grace

Texas and Louisiana prepare for Hurricane Rita, as Houston evacuation creates highway gridlock.

Aired September 22, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, Hurricane Rita, category 4, bears down on Texas. Over a million people leave town, evacuating. With the Gulf Coast on high alert for catastrophic winds and rain in New Orleans, the rainfall pushes the levees to the limit. Will those levees hold? And when to evacuate those already evacuated? Tonight, can we avoid the casualties and the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, Hurricane Rita threatens to smash into the Southland, winds 150 mph, torrential rains pounding the South. Is it Katrina all over again?

And tonight, mass exodus. Over a million people in Texas and Louisiana evacuate, heading inland as Rita heads toward the Gulf, Rita predicted to pound Texas or Louisiana in the next 48 hours. In New Orleans, can those patched-up levees take the pressure?

Let`s go straight out to Jim Kosek, senior meteorologist with Accuweather. Bring us up to date.

JIM KOSEK, ACCUWEATHER SENIOR METEOROLOGIST: Nancy, only time is going to eventually tell as to whether or not these levees will be able to hold the ground. You know, you talk to one civil engineer, he`ll give you one answer. You talk to the mayor, he has another.

The end game is 2 to 4 inches worth of rain from these outer bands of Rita coming through New Orleans. If they could survive that, so be it. That would be absolutely terrific news. But what we want to take a look at is what we term a water vapor satellite. If you could actually slice the atmosphere in half and take a look at its profile, this is more likely what you would look at. What I want to depict is the green-shaded area. This is where we have the moisture. Obviously, you can see Rita down in the Gulf of Mexico. But I also want to take note of what`s happening across downstate Illinois, St. Louis area, into parts of Missouri here. Notice how there`s a little tail to that green splotch. This is little disturbance. And if could almost draw an imaginary line down the spine of the Mississippi River, this is a weak trough of low pressure that`s sandwiched in between one high over Georgia, another over Texas.

And storm systems follow the path of least resistance. That`s why we saw a little bit more of a northwesterly movement earlier in the day today. But what we have seen so far this evening is actually more of a westward jog to Rita. And this is an indicator that this little weakness along the spine of the Mississippi River may actually be giving up some ground.

If that truly is the scenario, we`re still very, very concerned about Galveston. Even though that seawall does get up there in terms of 17.5 feet, could easily be breached with an 18 to 22-foot storm surge if it heads more over more toward, oh, say Port Arthur. These are places that are less densely populated but would look almost like Pascagoula, Mississippi, after Katrina went through.

Now, obviously, we`ve spoken about this before, even on your show yesterday. Back in 1900, the Galveston hurricane, a category 4, when it eventually rolled on through, a 15-foot storm surge, they didn`t have the 17-and-a-half-foot seawall at the time. Residents actually walked down to the beach to see what was happening, hence, as many as 6,000 to 10,000 lives lost, depending on what kind of reports you look at.

Now, category 1 hurricanes really don`t do much damage, but keep in mind this is a 4. It most likely will be a 4, causing catastrophic damage when it eventually comes onshore. And the timeframe we`re looking at is during the early hours of Saturday morning.

And take note here, Nancy. Even by the time we get to Sunday, Monday, Tuesday of next week, it is not moving a lot, hence, an a-la-Allison-2001- scenario may be played out. And for those that don`t remember Tropical Storm Allison back in 2001, it was the costliest natural disaster in the history of Houston, with 15 to 20 inches worth of rainfall.

There will be -- and mark my words Nancy, there will be someone with 25 inches worth of rain over east Texas. It may not be Houston, although they`ll have massive flooding. It may be more toward the Arklatex (ph) and northeast Texas by Tuesday of next week. And you want to call detrimental, that would be an understatement -- Nancy.

GRACE: Jim, how large of a swath is the Gulf Coast going to take the hit?

KOSEK: Well, that`s a very good point because in 1961, when Hurricane Carla came on shore farther down the coast near Port O`Connor, that was a category 4 hurricane. This one also a category 4, but also a little larger. But there were six, seven, eight inches worth of rain over southwest Louisiana. New Orleans got just over three inches worth of rain.

Tropical storm force-winds with Rita are out 205 miles from the center. So that`s the radius. You do the math. This storm system is well over 400, 450 miles wide. So that`s the amount of swath that we`re going to be targeting with. But always keep in mind, it`s the right side of the storm system where we see the worst in terms of damage, Nancy.

GRACE: Jim Kosek, senior meteorologist with Accuweather.

Very quickly, to Randi Kaye, CNN correspondent, standing by in Baytown, Texas. Randi, explain to me, isn`t that the area where all the oil refineries are?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That sure is. This is where the Houston ship channel runs through. That`s the 50-mile waterway that runs from the port of Houston to the Gulf of Mexico, and it`s lined with about 200 refineries and chemical plants. And they`re really concerned that they are going to take a big hit from Hurricane Rita.

These chemical plants, they house all kinds of things, many of them toxic chemicals, lethal chemicals, like ammonia and chlorine and phosgene. And it`s a real concern here because if Hurricane Rita slams into this area, these chemicals could be released and cause a massive toxic vapor cloud that could travel for miles, 25, 50 miles, possibly, wiping out anything and everything in its path.

Now, we talked with some of the chemical plants, Nancy, and they do tell us they are prepared, but they are certainly on high alert. They have completely shut down. All of them have closed their doors until Hurricane Rita passes through. They`ve turned off their valves. They`ve shut everything down. They`ve turned the flames down. They`ve shut the compressors off. And they`ve have tried to empty all the raw chemicals out of the systems -- Nancy.

GRACE: OK, wait. I don`t get it. If you`re storing all of these toxic chemicals, how does shutting down the refinery protect the citizens from a toxic spill?

KAYE: Well, they believe that if they shut them down and they take them out of the system -- in other words, they`re not active -- that that would certainly reduce the possibility that they could see a serious chemical leak. But they do leave about 20 people or so out of the 1,700 that work at the Shell plant we visited today -- they`re going to leave about 20 people there. Some of them are security, the others are environmental experts. And they are ready to go, if they do see a chemical leak. They all have their own security and their own emergency responders.

But again, Nancy, they`d have to wait for the winds to die down before they could even start to respond to a chemical leak.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KATHLEEN BLANCO (D), LOUISIANA: Rita is a powerful storm. It is a massive storm. Forecasters are calling for 20-foot seas or storm surge in Vermilion Bay. Vermilion Bay affects Iberia and St. Mary and Vermilion parishes. Hurricane-force winds will rip much of western Louisiana.

I`m urging people to head north. You cannot go into Texas. Texas is preparing. The hurricane eye is still entering Texas, but on the east side of Texas. We are on the east side of the storm, just as Mississippi was. We can expect serious consequences from this hurricane. We must move our people. Everyone in coastal areas south of I-10 must evacuate, and you should be leaving now. I still want you to pack thoughtfully and be well prepared as you do this.

This is a massive storm, a powerful storm. Forecasts call for a 20- foot surge, a storm surge in Vermilion Bay can swamp three parishes. Hurricane-force winds will rip much of western Louisiana. Rains are projected to be as much as 15 to 20 inches. Head north.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the governor of Louisiana, Governor Blanco.

Elizabeth, can you pull up that live shot of Galveston? Galveston the scene of the worst hurricane to ever hit U.S. soil, according to many, 1900. Death toll, 6,000 to 12,000 people.

I want to go now to special guest, the mayor of Beaumont, Texas, Mayor Guy Goodson. Mayor, thank you for being with us. Is Beaumont under a mandatory evacuation?

MAYOR GUY GOODSON, BEAUMONT, TEXAS: Yes. We issued a mandatory evacuation order effective 6:00 AM today.

GRACE: And how are you able to get everybody out?

GOODSON: Well, we had started a voluntary evacuation and put a great deal of information about the hurricane to the public through the major media outlets and our local outlets starting Monday of this week. We got a good response, we felt a very good response on the voluntary evacuation. But because of the movement, as you noted, in the storm to the east, we felt it imperative to go ahead and order the mandatory evacuation this morning, and people seem to be adhering to it. Certainly, there`s always those that don`t, and we`ll be trying to get those people out of the city tomorrow before the first, you know, tropical storm and gale-force winds hit.

GRACE: And Mayor, where are you?

GOODSON: Well, actually, I am standing in my home for the first time since 4:00 o`clock this morning. We have been up and at it all day.

GRACE: Well, I take it you`re still there in Beaumont? You`re not evacuating?

GOODSON: We`re not evacuating. Certain key personnel here in the city -- fire, police and EMS -- are going to stay. We have kind of developed a unique relationship with our state and federal partners, and we are actually taking several hundred key personnel onto two of the MARAD, U.S. Department of Transportation Ready Reserve fleet ships that are sitting in the port of Beaumont. We`re going to put patrol units, fire trucks, EMS, every other kind of service that we will need to get back in business after the storm occurs. And these are the same ships that moved military cargo to the Middle East during Iraqi Freedom, Desert Storm, Desert Shield, Enduring Freedom. And we`re going to weather out the storm out there and be right back on the ground as soon as the storm passes through.

GRACE: With me, Mayor Guy Goodson, mayor of Beaumont, Texas. Mayor, please stay with us.

Very quickly, I want to go to Captain Steve Kozak, commanding officer with NOAA Aircraft Operations Center. Could you explain to us how the planes fly over, for instance, Rita to get the information?

CAPT. STEVE KOZAK, COMMANDING OFFICER, NOAA AIRCRAFT OPS. CENTER: Sure, Nancy. We have a Gulfstream jet that flies all around the hurricane as it`s in the Gulf of Mexico -- takes off from Tampa, Florida, flies down around Cuba, comes around the Yucatan, goes up around the Mexican coast, all of Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi. And we deploy GPS dropwindsondes. I brought one here with you. It`s kind of like a weather balloon. When it leaves the aircraft, out pops a parachute, and it transmits back to the aircraft all of the winds, pressure, temperature and humidity in the atmosphere. We record that data on the aircraft, and then we transmit it back to the National Hurricane Center, who includes that data in their forecast model runs.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Captain Steve, you drop that dropsonde, as you called it, into the hurricane and it`s not torn apart?

KOZAK: Oh, no. It`s very sturdy. It has a parachute on it. They`re very rugged, and they transmit data even in the eyewall. We can get winds all the way down to the surface of the ocean.

GRACE: Do you feel like you need to do that, as opposed to getting satellite information?

KOZAK: Oh, the data from here is much more accurate. Every time a low-level aircraft flies into the center of a hurricane, you know, we always report what the pressure is in the center. We determine that pressure from these dropsondes. When we get in the center, we drop one of these, as well.

GRACE: Could you hold that up again? A dropsonde. Everybody, with us, Captain Steve Kozak with NOAA Aircraft Operation Center. Now, have you ever lost a plane?

KOZAK: No, absolutely not. It`s extremely safe.

GRACE: OK, so you`re telling me flying over a hurricane and dropping things into it is extremely safe?

KOZAK: Well, you know, we`ve trained for that. The turbulence you receive isn`t much more rougher than what you`d experience on an airline flight, to be honest with you.

GRACE: Now, what can you tell me about Rita, as opposed to Katrina?

KOZAK: The two storms are very similar. They`re both category 4 hurricanes approaching the northern Gulf of Mexico. They`re both extremely large. Not only are they category 4, but hurricane-force winds are extending out 100 miles from each center. So basically, you`re going to have hurricane-force winds, if this continues, 200 miles on the coast.

GRACE: I want to go quickly back to senior meteorologist with Accuweather Jim Kosek. Jim, I was just thinking about what Captain Steve was telling us. How often have you seen two cat 4s hit the U.S. within one year?

KOSEK: I think it was actually back in the early 1950s, so it`s been quite some time. So this most certainly is a rarity, but it leads to the point that I wanted to bring up here, Nancy. This is in terms of cycles that we typically see happening. They occur in a decadal fashion. So last year, we saw a marked increase in the number of named storms across the eastern Caribbean, as well as the Atlantic base (ph). This is just an ongoing cycle.

So if you think we`re done with this stuff this year, you got to think again because this is what we saw back in the early `50s, also in the `60s. There were no global warming fanatics coming out of the woodwork back then. We have them now. And you know, who`s to say that whether or not that plays an important role or not. But you know, we didn`t have all this action back in the `50s and `60s. So I wouldn`t think that it plays so much of an important role, so I want these guys coming out of the woodwork that are fanatics about the global warming to pipe down and let`s just all get through this, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, everybody. Did you hear that, you global warming fanatics? Pipe down, according to the senior meteorologist at Accuweather.

We are battening the hatches, here waiting for Rita. When we come back, Captain John Corn (ph), Corpus Christi sector commander with the U.S. Coast Guard.

But very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Stephen Poaches arraigned for the murder of mother-to-be Latoyia Figueroa, Poaches, the biological father of Figueroa`s unborn child, accused of strangling the young mother, dumping her body in a wooded area outside Philadelphia. When police arrested Poaches -- catch this -- he was wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying a .45-caliber automatic weapon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: You are seeing a live shot of Galveston, Texas. Rita expected to hit early Saturday morning, right now, 145 mph, category 4. It`s been decades since two category 4 hurricanes hit this country. As you know, the worst hurricane to ever hit U.S. soil hit Galveston 1900, estimated deaths up to 12,000 people. Galveston evacuating even as we speak.

Elizabeth, could you show me what`s left of the Amtraks out of Texas? Now, this is disturbing, everybody. You saw the traffic piled up. Nobody can get out. It`s stopped. The only Amtrak out of Texas is out of Dallas. It`s the green one. All of the red ones, forget about it. What`s wrong with them, Ellie? Are they not working? What? Are they...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s my understanding that the tracks are shut down.

GRACE: Tracks shut down. Only the green one out of Texas that takes you to Oklahoma City. That`s the Amtrak way out of town.

And Elizabeth, could you pull up that video of traffic, people trying to evacuate?

I want to go to "Newsweek" reporter Richard Wolffe. Richard, you`ve been observing this very carefully. Do they seem to be doing a better job evacuating at this time, Richard?

RICHARD WOLFFE, "NEWSWEEK": Sure, they do. They`ve been moving much earlier, and there`s much more coordination there between the state and local folks and the federal government. There`s more military assets on the move. Everything is moving much earlier and in much greater quantities.

GRACE: Now, Richard, do you think Texas seems to be in a better position to ask for help from the feds than Louisiana was? And if so, why?

WOLFFE: Well, they know each other personally. You`re talking about the governor of Texas, and a former governor of Texas is obviously now president. Governor Perry and Governor Bush know each other well. The staff know each other well. There`s also a sense that, you know, everybody`s seen what happened with Katrina, and they know the kinds of mistakes that went on -- bad communication, crossed messages, people thought they were talking to each other and they weren`t. So those kinds of things are much better. And of course, there`s a lot more people there in the region that can be moved from one state to another.

GRACE: Now, President Bush is not on vacation this hurricane, is he?

WOLFFE: No, he is not, and he is making a big show of being on the case. He`s traveling tomorrow. He`s going to be in Texas, getting there before the storm. He`s going to the military command in Colorado, as well. He`s going to look active. You`re going to see a lot of him both before the storm, and he`s going to stay in the region after the storm. So there`s going to be a lot of him in the next few days.

GRACE: Smart. Smart.

I quickly want to go to CNN correspondent, before the satellite goes down in Galveston, Texas, Sean Callebs, is with us. Sean, what do you see?

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you can look over my right shoulder, you can see the sea is certainly picking up steam. Right now, it is slamming at the base of this 18-foot seawall. And if authorities are right, sometime within the next 24 to 36 hours, the Atlantic is going to leap right over this seawall. It is going to swamp, flood a huge section of this barrier island. By virtually all models and all accounts, if Rita -- if the eye passes very close to here, a great portion of this island is going to be under water. Some areas are going to be under water as deep as 28 to 30 feet.

We were down there earlier. It`s called the western area of Galveston. And it is not protected by a long seawall like this. This wall is only so long.

It`s interesting. I heard you talk about how the preparations are going. And you have to also remember that Louisiana was basically down in a bowl, the New Orleans area. And here, they suspect that if the flood moves in, it will not only flood from this side of the ocean, but it`ll come in from the bay side, as well. And what they`re hoping is the flood waters will recede rather quickly. But it`s really unknown.

I mean, everybody is dealing with a what-if, what-if, what-if at this hour. All they know for sure, it is going to flood. They are going to get high winds, and Rita is going to pass, if not over this area, then certainly very close.

GRACE: All I know what is you just witnessed after Katrina, and that is one hard lesson to learn. Sean Callebs with us in Galveston. Also with us, Randi Kaye in Baytown, Texas. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR LYDA ANN THOMAS, GALVESTON: We hope the majority of the citizens will move on out today. And we will be having our patrol cars go through the neighborhoods, particularly on the west end of the island, which is not protected by the seawall. We`ll have our police forces down there with their loudspeakers, reminding people that they need to leave today because tomorrow will be too late. The roads to the west end will be flooded sometime tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Mayor Thomas of Galveston, Texas. Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

Straight to Jim Kosek, senior meteorologist with Accuweather. What time is Rita now expected to make landfall?

KOSEK: Well, it`s actually not going to be until the wee hours of Saturday morning, Nancy. But the effects of the outer bands of rain -- we spoke about this -- the radius is over 200 miles for the tropical storm- force winds. So already very late tomorrow, very late tonight, first thing tomorrow morning, we`ll be seeing the rains on Galveston Island, Nancy.

GRACE: And back to Richard Wolffe, reporter with "Newsweek." Do you get the sense the feds are trying to make up with Rita for Katrina?

WOLFFE: Well, yes, I think they are. I mean, of course, they want to help people who are in the path of this fierce storm, and they want to get things right for people this time. But yes, sure, they`re aware of the criticism they face and those awful pictures we saw out of New Orleans. They don`t want it to happen again.

GRACE: And to Mayor Guy Goodson, the mayor of Beaumont, Texas. You`re going to ride it out in your home?

GOODSON: Oh, no. We`re going to ride it out on the MARAD ships I mentioned in the earlier part of the broadcast, down in the port of Beaumont. That`s what we`re going to be doing, is doing it down there, at that port.

GRACE: With me, Mayor Guy Goodson of Beaumont, Texas, Richard Wolffe of "Newsweek." Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve been in the same spot since about midnight, and every once in a while you`ll see a truck roll, a car roll a few feet, and then it stops again. You can see people right here -- look under here, you see this man pushing his van because he doesn`t want to run out of gas, and you can move it just as quickly that way as you can idling.

You can see people standing on the side of the road. They`re doing that to stretch their legs because the cars, they can pretty much leave them sitting for five or ten minutes at a time, that`s how bad it is.

This is one of those situations where they have been stuck, some for about 15 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing a live shot, let me get a closer look on that, people evacuating, people speeding along -- right now it looks to me like the roads are emptying out. It looks like a no-man`s land. Everybody hightailing it out of town, as they should.

Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

Very quickly to Jill Hasling, meteorologist with the weather research center. What does it mean that Rita is now at a cat. 4?

JILL Hasling, METEOROLOGIST: Well, it`s a very strong storm. The last time we had a storm this strong was Carla, in 1961, and we didn`t have as large a population, and we have a lot of things built up since then, so that it`s a good idea for a lot of people to evacuate and it`s good we started early.

GRACE: Back to you, Sean Calebs, in Galveston, Texas.

Sean, I still am being haunted by the nursing home, St. Rita`s, just outside of New Orleans, where so many elderly died in their beds and in their wheelchairs. What special precautions were taken for hospitals and nursing homes there?

CALEBS: Well, I talked with the city attorney yesterday and we spent part of the day riding around with a Galveston police officer today. Virtually, they went to all of the hospitals and they said they went to all of the nursing homes, to make sure everybody was evacuating.

And then secondly, they went to homes where they thought the disabled or the infirmed lived. They knocked on doors, asked if people needed any help. They went through some areas with bullhorns saying a very powerful storm is coming, if you need help getting out of this town, let us know. They also set up an area, I believe it was on Broadway and 45th, not really far from where we are now, where residents who didn`t have transportation could gather and then they would be taken out of this area on buses.

This is something that this community did, A, because of the past history, the punishing hurricane from 1900, but those images that you just talked about from about three-and-a-half weeks ago, still very fresh, very vivid in everyone`s mind. All those motorists going up the interstate today, we can`t imagine how agonizing that was. I mean, it`s near record heat here, even though it`s the first day of fall. People trapped on the interstate, basically going a mile an hour for 9, 10, 12, 15 hours at a time. Those people are going to be inconvenienced; they are going to be alive, and that`s something that is a lot different than what we saw when Katrina blew through the Louisiana area.

GRACE: Captain John Korn is with us, Corpus Christi Sector Commander of the U.S. Coast Guard. Welcome, Captain.

Where will the National Guard ride out the storm?

CAPT. JOHN KORN, U.S. COAST GUARD: I can`t answer where the National Guard will ride out the storm. The Coast Guard, we are riding out the storm in several locations with the intent to be able to come back in immediately after the storm passes to affect rescues and to assess the waterways and the infrastructure.

GRACE: What is the plan after the hurricane moves through?

KORN: After the hurricane moves through, we`re going to get, like I said, airborne immediately to get in there and see what type of search and rescue situation we have, whether it is similar to Katrina or Tropical Storm Allison, and just assess what we have. And then also get other aircraft in to assess the infrastructure and where we can reconstitute.

GRACE: How is the Coast Guard getting ready for Rita?

KORN: We`ve done quite a bit of things. We`ve moved resources and personnel to locations outside the projected path of the storm, so we can get back in, like I mentioned. We`ve done some pre-storm over-flights to get waterways assessments. We`ve got cutters and small boats ready to redeploy back into local ports and rivers. We`ve got liaison officers at all of the state emergency operation centers to help coordinate Coast Guard efforts and working with local officials to determine the need to assist hospitals with the evacuation of patients. Back in Port Arthur, we`ve helped the Jefferson County officials evacuate about 4,800 residents with special needs from nursing homes and hospitals.

GRACE: With us now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN senior medical correspondent.

Sanjay, thank you for being with us.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

GRACE: He is joining us from Houston, Texas.

Sanjay, what medical emergencies do you anticipate coming up?

GUPTA: You know, it`s going to be interesting, Nancy. I think actually over the next couple of days here in Houston, there is not going to be that much happening. This is a common misconception, that the hospitals become quite flooded with people. That typically doesn`t happen. In fact, here in Houston they`ve been preparing for this for some time, really since Allison.

The patients for the most part, Nancy, are going to stay here in Houston. They`re not planning on evacuating at this time. They`ve done some things, like for example the generators are above sea level, so they shouldn`t short out. They also have these special doors, these kind of amazing doors, Nancy. They`re like submarine doors, to basically keep the water from getting in. They learned their lessons about flooding again from Tropical Storm Allison.

So for the most part, things are just pretty quiet as far as the hospitals go in Houston -- Nancy.

GRACE: Sanjay, emergency triage units popped up all over the place following Katrina. Are there designated places there?

GUPTA: Yes, there are a few designated places for emergency triage units, but the hospitals, big hospitals, level one trauma centers, are going to remain open as well.

What`s sort of interesting to me is that you remember, Nancy, a lot of patients came from New Orleans to Houston. They were evacuated here. That`s probably not going to happen as far as coming from Galveston or Lake Charles to Houston, because Houston itself is considered at risk. So they`re not going to be a repository for a lot of evacuees, which I found interesting. Most patients will actually bypass Houston, go a little bit further north.

So Houston is in a funny place. They`re not going to evacuate, but they`re probably not going to take evacuees either for the most part at the hospitals.

GRACE: Dr. Sanjay Gupta is joining us from Houston.

Sanjay, what is your evacuation advice for the elderly?

GUPTA: Well, you know, I think the evacuation advice here in Houston is, first of all, if you are in a hospital, you`re probably going to be in a pretty safe place. So best not to try and leave the hospital.

For the elderly, I think along with everybody else, they`re recommending that most people try and move out of the path of the hurricane, further north, further west, for example, as well. The elderly, small children, healthy people as well. But, you know, as a previous guest just mentioned, it is hot down here. You`re going to be in a car for a long time. You need to make sure you have plenty of water, plenty of air conditioning. You`re going to be on the road much longer than you probably can imagine as things stand right now -- Nancy.

GRACE: And Sanjay, do you expect, realistically, that we will see the same medical problems in the aftermath of Rita that we did after Katrina?

GUPTA: Right now I remain optimistic and that`s because I have talked to a lot of medical professionals about this today. The big difference here Nancy, an important one, is that we shouldn`t see the degree of flooding that we saw in New Orleans. That basin-like topography of New Orleans really caused a lot of flooding. Those levees breaking caused a lot of flooding. Not to in any way belittle how much flooding occurred after Allison here, but I think it is going to be a lot less, so we shouldn`t see the degree of disease, the degree of injury, the degree of mortality because of flooding alone, hopefully not -- Nancy.

GRACE: And Sanjay, before you get away, I just keep thinking about what happened at St. Rita`s Nursing Home, just outside of New Orleans. There are patients there that are not being evacuated, they cannot be evacuated. What happens to them?

GUPTA: That is a very disturbing situation. I think for sure certainly everyone knows that story. I think that for the most part all of the emergency preparedness plans have to work. What does that mean? It means the generators have to work. It means there has to be adequate water, there has to be adequate plumbing. Doctors need to stay and take care of these patients. It`s not going to be easy, but that`s what has to happen to make these patients get through this -- Nancy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The track of the storm appears to have taken a slight turn to the east. It is clear that wherever it makes landfall it is going to do extensive damage. The safest course of action is to evacuate now in a very calm and orderly manner. Evacuating may not prevent damage to your personal property, but it could save your life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

I want to go straight out to Galveston, Texas. Standing by, Sean Calebs.

So I understand that now that the town is basically a ghost town.

CALEBS: It really is. It`s amazing. You drive around here, just a couple of days ago the place was just full of life, and even yesterday a lot of vehicles going through here, we know the city leaders had a number of news conferences throughout the day as well.

Today we had to look for people who were staying. Earlier in the day, there were some hearty souls out with their surfboards having a good time, knowing they had about 24 hours to get off of this little barrier island.

But we did talk to one guy who is staying, I would say about a half-a- mile from here. He`s staying at a 12-story high rise and he is on the fourth floor. This guy is a building contractor. He knows a lot about construction. He walked me through why he thinks this building is going to be safe. But without question, he is gambling.

Now, do people really want to do that and what do they have to gain by staying here? I don`t think that there is anybody who is staying here for foolhardy reasons, because this island, if forecasters are right, is simply going to be overwhelmed by this water. It`s going to be very deep. A lot of structures are going to be severely damaged. And the winds and the storm surge is just going to be horrific.

GRACE: Well, with him in mind, Elizabeth, let`s pull up the hurricane shelter spots there in Texas for those of you that don`t want to evacuate. Reese Technology Center in Lubbock, Texas; Red Cross Shelters, Longview; Red Cross Shelters, San Antonio; First Baptist Church in Katy, Texas. Do we have anymore, Elizabeth? Those are the four that we know of here. Reese Technology, Red Cross Shelters, two Red Cross Shelters in San Antonio and the First Baptist Church in Kathy, Texas.

Back to meteorologist Jill Hasling, with the Weather Research Center.

Jill, Rita seems to be turning toward the east. Now, what does that mean for Louisiana and all of the areas already hit by Katrina?

HASLING: Well, it`s really too early to tell if this is going to be a significant turn and it is going to be good for Galveston because it would go east of there, which means it could blow some of the water out of the bay and the tides would be lower.

But when you have a strong hurricane like this, the eye does wobble, so it could just as easily wobble back to the west and we could be on the bad side of the storm again.

So we have hurricane warnings from Port O`Connor up to the Louisiana coast, and so it could go anywhere in that eye. You have a 26 percent probability for Galveston and a 26 percent probability for Port Arthur, so that means that it`s going to hit somewhere on the upper Texas coast or the western Louisiana coast.

GRACE: To Dr. Joseph Deltito, professor of psychiatry, do you believe that the Katrina victims can mentally -- I mean, if they save their skin, can they mentally withstand another hit this soon after?

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: Well, the human spirit is such that if you endure these types of hardships, if they don`t kill you, you usually come out stronger for it. So I don`t believe that people are sort of worn down and they can`t take a second hit. I think they`re better if they survived to be able to take somewhat of a second hit and I think, you know, the people are looking at the government, the government is responding, everything suggests that it will go better than the first time around.

Ironically, the best thing that has happened to the potential victims of Rita is that Katrina happened, so that now there is preparedness, scrutiny of preparedness, et cetera.

GRACE: And speaking of scrutiny, to Randy Keen, attorney -- Randy, are there legal repercussions, especially after what we saw happen in Katrina, for those that refuse to evacuate targeted areas?

KEEN: Are there legal repercussions?

GRACE: Yeah. If you refuse to evacuate and then, for instance, the Coast Guard or the National Guard tries to come and save you and somehow there is an accident during that, you cost somebody else a life because you refused to evacuate -- Sean Calebs just told us about a guy who is up in a high rise in Galveston.

KEEN: Well, Nancy, these folks have a right to stay or go, typically, unless there becomes a public policy reason to get them out.

If by staying they`re going to endanger a larger number of people, then there is absolutely no reason why they need to stay and endanger those folks. They need to get on out and follow the rules of the evacuation.

GRACE: Well, yeah, I didn`t have to go to law school to know they should leave. But the legal -- if any -- is there a legal repercussion? Everybody, Randy Keen is a judge. Randy, is there a legal repercussion if they sit on their thumbs and refuse to evacuate?

KEEN: They are going to be held responsible for their own decisions and what a hurricane leaves in its wake is death, destruction, a lot of bad stuff, looting and that sort of thing. They`re subjecting themselves to all of that.

GRACE: You know what, that`s a really good point. To David Wohl, also a veteran attorney -- David, regarding looting, a lot of people refused to evacuate after Katrina because they feared looting and the desecration of their homes. Do you think authorities have a better plan to handle than with Rita?

WOHL: Well, I would hope so, Nancy. I mean, looting was rampant in Louisiana, and I`ll tell you something, when they declared Marshal Law -- or they allegedly did, I`m not sure if that ever happened -- they can stop it real quickly, because they suspend civil liberties, they suspend the fourth, the fifth amendment, they suspend the constitutional rights.

And the other point you had, going to someone`s door and forcing them out, they can say, hey, you don`t have a warrant. They`ll say I don`t have one, I don`t need one under Marshal Law. I grab you, I take you out for your own personal safety, and that might be an option if the same thing happens as did in Katrina.

GRACE: And I want to go straight back to Jill Hasling.

You know, we`re down to a cat. 4, but I was looking at the definitions -- OK, that is not Jill Hasling. I was looking at the definitions and I don`t quite get the difference of significance between four and five.

HASLING: Well, you have winds greater than 155 knots when you have a category 5, and you`ll have higher storm surges associated with stronger winds, and the winds will stay strong further inland if you have a category 5.

When you see a storm weakening, that`s always better because you would have less winds, but a category 4 can still cause a massive amount of damage and leave piles of debris in coastal communities.

GRACE: And very quickly, Jill, can tornados also develop as a result of this?

HASLING: Yes, you can have tornados in the squalls of hurricanes. In 1967, Hurricane Beulah, which hit down on the south Texas coast, had 117 tornados in it. So you do have to worry about tornados when the squalls are moving through the area.

GRACE: Everybody, quick break. I want to remind you, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Take a look at 32-year-old Kimberly Morse. She suffered stab wounds in her own apartment before being set afire and dying. Morse`s murder was January 2000, North Providence, Rhode Island. Still unsolved. If you have info on Kimberly Morse, cll the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813-8389.

And on that note, Sunday, National Remembrance Day for Murder Victims, to remember thousands of people who lost their lives and their families that are suffering, vigils held across the country. For info in your area, call POMC, National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children, 888-818- 7662 or online, POMC.com (sic).

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: You`re seeing live shots from Galveston, now a ghost town, everyone evacuated. The devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina has been overwhelming, but the generosity of regular people one at a time can alleviate the suffering.

In just two days, Liberty Methodist Church in my hometown of Macon, Georgia collected over $6,000, filled two trucks with cots, diapers, personal items, even stuffed animals for children in those shelters, and they drove it themselves to Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, proof that every single person can make a difference. To contribute to this effort, 478- 788-5343.

Are we facing the same devastation from Rita? Very quickly to Maria Powell. Maria Powell has already been evacuated to the Houston Astrodome from New Orleans following Katrina. Now again.

Welcome, Mrs. Powell, thank you for being with us.

What did you first think when you heard Rita was coming?

MARIA POWELL, HURRICANE KATRINA EVACUEE: I was very devastated and angry, because I`m running from one state to another state. You can`t run all your life from it, but sometimes you have to think and get the big pictures of whether you want to stay there and try to ride it out or to leave.

GRACE: Are the buses helping you evacuate, Maria?

POWELL: Not in Houston, no. The buses are basically taking people from Galveston and other low counties within the area. They`re not really picking up from Houston, because I figure, you know, maybe they think that Houston is not being a direct hit, but once it comes to Galveston, that`s only like two exits off the Mile 8 from where we are right now.

GRACE: Where are you evacuating to now?

POWELL: Well, we were trying to evacuate to another part of Houston. I`m not exactly sure, because it`s my best friend`s nephew house that we are going to, but we`re trying to wait it out and hope that the storm will turn by morning.

GRACE: So many people evacuated from Katrina, now evacuating again.

You are seeing shots of people trying to leave the affected areas. I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but especially to you for being with us.

Coming up, headlines from around the world, LARRY on CNN. Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. Until then, goodnight, friend.

END