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Nancy Grace
Nancy Grace for September 30, 2005, CNNHN
Aired September 30, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news, a little girl just 4 years old found wandering the city streets alone in the late night hours. The girl has gone unidentified for days. Please help us help police. Now the latest. Her mother missing, as well.
Tonight, a double murder in wine country. Two 26-year-old roommates stabbed to death in a Halloween night massacre. The man charged, one of the victims` best friend`s husband.
And the search tonight for 17-year-old Taylor Behl at Virginia Commonwealth University intensifies.
Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us this Friday night.
Tonight: a brutal double murder in the heart of prestigious wine country, beauty queen Leslie Mazzara and roommate Adriane Insogna fatally stabbed.
And tonight, the dark world of a 38-year-old photographer Ben Fawley, what with goth culture, bondage, torture. Does this guy have information on a missing 17-year-old girl, Taylor Behl? The Virginia commonwealth student abruptly went missing on Labor Day. No sign of her since.
But first, tonight, breaking news. This 4-year-old girl wandering city streets alone, and as we go to air tonight, we have just learned her mother also missing.
Let`s go straight out to correspondent and anchor Ali Velshi. Ali, what can you tell us?
ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s a story we`re hoping has a good end, Nancy. A 4-year-old girl was found wandering the streets of Queens, New York, early Sunday morning. Police thought it was a case of abandonment. They waited for someone to claim the little girl. She didn`t. So on Thursday, they put out these pictures of the little girl, and information started pouring in. She told police her name is Valerie. Her mother`s name is Monica. Monica works as a cook in a restaurant and that she looks like a princess. She also said that she had two daddies, and one of them is named Caesar (ph). She said that on Saturday night, she was sleeping in bed and Caesar took her out -- in her words, "He took me in the car and took me outside with no shoes. I was crying, and some people found me and gave me a sweater and everything."
Well, this is what they found out after talking to -- after letting this out in public. Her name is Valerie Lozada. She`s 4 years old, and her mother is 26-year-old Monica Lozada, born in Bolivia. They live in Queens. Police in New York, we are told, have a man in custody. He`s not in custody -- are interviewing a man, a man named Caesar, a man who is Monica Lozada`s boyfriend.
There are no arrests in this case. There are no charges in this case. Police say that they are looking for Monica Lozada and that homicide detectives -- well, we have heard that homicide detectives are involved in this. They are searching the home in Queens right now. where this little girl and her mother and this other man lived.
At the moment, we don`t know where she is. Police are looking for Monica Lozada. She is described as being 26 years old. She`s 5-foot-6. She`s 105 pounds, with long blond hair, a bluebird tattoo on her stomach. And the little girl described that she might have hurt her tooth because her face was swollen. Turns out that she just had some dental work, so police say her face may be swollen. She also has a scar on her left knee.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how you got lost, honey?
VALERIE LOZADA, LOST 4-YEAR-OLD: I got lost in -- when I was sleeping, he took me in the car, and he took me outside with no shoes. So I was crying. And some people find me, and they give me sweater and everything.
And she`s sick because she gots a ball.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has a ball on her face?
LOZADA: A ball in her cheek, only one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So it makes her cheek sit (ph) out a little bit?
LOZADA: And she says because she don`t talks. She don`t talks. She talks a little bit. She don`t talks a lot because she has a ball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Somebody let this little 4-year-old girl, barefoot, and from what I understand, wearing her little pajamas, out on the streets of New York in the early morning hours Sunday morning, basically Saturday night. She was wandering around.
To Philip Messing, "New York Post" reporter. Thank you for being with us. Philip, was she wearing her PJs?
PHILIP MESSING, "NEW YORK POST": Well, I do know that she was barefoot. She didn`t have -- she had no shoes on. And she later told police that a man in a black car let her out and said, Go to your mommy. And police have subsequently come to believe that this man is a man, Caesar, who is being questioned. And as of now, they`re terming him a cooperating witness.
And he has basically said that he drove the child and the mother, at one point, to Kennedy Airport, and it was his understanding that the child and the mother were going to be taking a flight to Miami to go back to Bolivia. The child`s story seems to conflict with the -- with Caesar`s story. And I think, right now, they`re trying to see what they have on their hands. Right now, they don`t know what they have. They just know that the child`s mother is missing and that she was found in under rather unusual circumstances.
GRACE: Ali, right there, that`s a problem. Unless this little 4- year-old girl can hail a cab to JFK and make her way all the way back to Queens, I can hardly do that myself. Somebody`s lying, all right?
VELSHI: Whoever it is who dropped this little girl off or somehow abandoned this little girl made their biggest mistake there because this little girl looks believable. She`s articulate. And everything -- the other things she said have been -- have turned out to be true. That little ball on her mother`s face is dental surgery. She seems like she knows something.
GRACE: Yes, it`s very difficult, I learned in court, for children to have guile and deception and come up with a fantastic story, especially at age 4. Take a listen to this little girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOZADA: I got two daddies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have two daddies? What are their names. You`re lucky. What are your daddies` names?
LOZADA: Felipe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Felipe? Nice. And your other daddy`s name is?
LOZADA: Caesar.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you live in an apartment or in a house?
LOZADA: In an apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know what floor you live on? Do you go in an elevator to get to your apartment?
LOZADA: I go in the -- in a car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know if you -- do live in New York?
LOZADA: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No? Or you`re not sure?
LOZADA: I`m not sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Very quickly, I want to go to the man who may have saved this girl`s life. Joining us by phone, Branko Petrovic. He found 4-year-old Valerie wandering the streets. Sir, thank you for being with us.
BRANKO PETROVIC, FOUND 4-YEAR-OLD GIRL IN THE STREETS: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Tell us what happened when you found the little girl.
PETROVIC: Well, when I ran out on the street -- actually, my wife woke me up at night, telling me to check out what kid is crying out. And when I look on the window from our bedroom, I saw a little girl in pajama, barefoot, running on the sidewalk and crying.
GRACE: Oh, God!
PETROVIC: And I grabbed my pants and ran out. And I saw her knocking on neighbors` doors. And then two other ladies came out from the neighborhood and my wife behind me. And for first two or three minutes, she wasn`t -- she just crying, looking for her mom. And she was all in distress and fear. So we couldn`t even understand everything she said.
Then my wife brought blankets, some socks, some sneakers of our 7- year-old son, and we gave her some warm clothing and a few toys to calm her down. And we also tried to figure out if she`s maybe from our neighborhood, but we couldn`t recognize her. And one lady called police immediately. Then they took her out.
GRACE: I just cannot imagine who would put a little 4-year-old girl out on a city street, much less here in New York City, barefoot in her little PJs on a Saturday night like that! What did she tell you, Mr. Petrovic?
PETROVIC: She just was -- when she calmed down, she told us she`s looking for her mommy and that her father, by name Caesar, let her alone in the street from a car, and that she`s looking for her mom. And we just couldn`t believe that she is alone at 1:00 at night in a very cold night. She was shivering.
GRACE: Well, did she tell you anything about who dumped her off on the street?
PETROVIC: she said that it was Caesar, her dad and -- you know, then that was it. She was very, very stressed and all in fear.
GRACE: Sir, you may have very well saved this child`s life, you and your wife. Don`t tell me you were the first one in New York City to hear this child crying, to see her on the street, and nobody did anything until you took her in and called 911! I just thank God you saw the little girl. Mr. Petrovic, thank you for being with us.
PETROVIC: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: You know, I want to go straight out to Joe Lawless, defense attorney. Now, the little girl, 4 years old -- and I know a lot of lawyers will say a child is unreliable in court. But this little girl did not make this up out of whole cloth. She has named a name, Caesar. I guess that`s the mom`s boyfriend. We know that her real biological father is someone named Felipe. Haven`t found him yet. But this guy, apparently, as of now, not a formal suspect. I`ve been told -- is this right, Ali, that he is under questioning by police and...
VELSHI: That`s correct. They`re interviewing him.
GRACE: Is he being cooperative or not?
VELSHI: Well, you know, we have sources who tell us that for the moment, he`s there and he hasn`t done anything that hasn`t been cooperative. He`s offered some details. But that`s what we know right now. I asked if anybody thinks he`s leaving anytime soon, and nobody thought so.
GRACE: You know, back to you, Joe Lawless. Joe is a veteran defense attorney. The reality is, the mom is missing. While a lot of people are saying there`s no evidence of foul play -- I mean, where`s the mom? You think this mom left her little girl out, and the girl says Caesar left her out on the street?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think Caesar`s causing himself a problem by~ providing the kind of details that he is, Nancy. He`s saying he was taking the mom and little girl to the airport to catch a flight to Miami. That`s real easy to check. She either had a ticket or didn`t. That`s going to be on a ticket manifest somewhere. And then you combine that with little Valerie saying Caesar dropped her off.
Sometimes, defendants talk way too much and get themselves in even deeper and deeper. it sounds to me like that`s what Caesar`s doing right now. And I think this little girl`s very believable.
GRACE: You know, I think she is, too.
Everybody, if you can help us figure out what has become of this little girl`s mom -- just recently, we learned the name of the little girl. Let`s take a listen. Elizabeth, can you play that back?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how you got lost, honey?
LOZADA: I got lost -- when I was sleeping, he took me in the car, and he took...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your daddy?
LOZADA: And he took me outside with no shoes. So I was crying. And some people find me, and they give me sweater and everything.
And she`s sick because she gots a ball.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has a ball on her face? Like a...
LOZADA: A ball on her cheek. Only one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So it makes her cheek sit out a little bit?
LOZADA: And she says, because she don`t talks. She don`t talks. She talks a little bit. She don`t talks a lot because she`s -- she has the ball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Not only is this girl without her mother, the mother may have met with foul play. Ellie, what`s the tip line?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tip line is 1-800-577-TIPS.
GRACE: It`s 800-577-TIPS. Back to Ali Velshi. Ali, you told me that police are searching the little girl`s apartment. We`re talking about Valerie, Lozada. Mother, Monica Lozada. Please tell me it`s pursuant to search warrant.
VELSHI: Yes. We do know that -- certainly, we`ve got reports that police were getting a search warrant earlier. We understand that the place where Valerie and Monica and Caesar lived together is being searched right now. And the sense I get from following this is that this is active. They are doing things to try and find out everything they can. They got a break last night when they identified who this little girl is, and since then, they`ve been very active in trying to get as much information as they can. Bottom line, though, is we can`t find Monica, and that`s what`s important.
GRACE: Yes. To Lauren Lake (ph), defense attorney. You can only do a search warrant with -- I mean, you can only do a search of an apartment with a search warrant signed by a judge, exigent circumstances, such as a crime going down at the moment, or consent. The mom`s gone. The little girl can`t give consent. So let`s just pray they got a warrant. Do you think she`s met with foul play?
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I do. Something has happened here. I mean, let`s be honest. This girl is well cared for. They said her toenails and her fingernails were polished. Her clothes were clean. But she had no shoes on. And you see little Miss Valerie, she knew it was wrong to go outside with no shoes on. She said, He took me with no shoes.
So even though sometimes you can say that children may be unreliable, Miss Valerie is telling it like it is, and she is giving specific facts. Caesar`s in trouble, and he needs to get a lawyer and get his little self together because...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m going to remind -- I`m going to play this back for you when he tries to hire you to be his defense lawyer, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Again, Caesar, not a formal suspect, as we speak. And if your heart`s not already breaking, when they got the little girl, she said, I got lost in my sleep.
LAKE: Yes.
GRACE: She was grabbed up in her sleep.
LAKE: That`s foul play right there. You don`t get lost in your sleep!
GRACE: Everybody, quick break. We`ll all be right back, as we try it find out more about this little girl, Valerie Lozada.
Very quickly, "Case Update." Lawyers for dentist Barton Corbin, accused of the 1990 murder of his then girlfriend, Dolly Hearn, asking, demanding the judge to throw out the indictment. Dolly`s death thought to be a suicide until Corbin`s wife years later, Jennifer, also found dead. That was 14 years later. Now Corbin is facing murder charges in not one but both cases. Now, his lawyers say the charges should be thrown out because the state waited too long to indict. Corbin says both women committed suicide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOZADA: I got two daddies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have two daddies? What are their names. You`re lucky. What are your daddies` names?
LOZADA: Felipe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Felipe? Nice. And your other daddy`s name is?
LOZADA: Caesar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This little 4-year-old girl, Valerie Lozada, is bilingual. She speaks English and Spanish. She has stated that her mom, Monica, looks like a princess, with long blond hair. Here`s a shot of her. Please help us solve the mystery. Why was this 4-year-old girl abandoned in her PJs and barefoot on a New York City street?
Very quickly, to "New York Post" reporter, Philip Messing. What can you tell me about the mom and this Caesar person?
MESSING: Well, it appears that she did have some surgery on her mouth, and she may have had two teeth taken out before this thing unfolded. And they`d been together for about three months. And beyond that, it`s his claim that he dropped them off and they went to parts unknown, against the child`s claim that he was the man that abandoned her. And they`re sort of in a quandary because of the little girl being 4, no matter how compelling she is to us, as people watching this, when it comes to court and whatever, just as a matter of law, it`s really hard to get a 4-year-old to testify against somebody and say this is solid enough evidence to bring a charge against Caesar.
GRACE: Well, you know, you`d be surprised who juries actually are willing to believe. I guess it`s also pretty difficult to cross-examine a 4-year-old little girl.
Hey, to forensic psychologist Michael Nuccitelli. If the mother has been harmed, why not the little girl?
MICHAEL NUCCITELLI, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s really confusing, I mean, just to think about this entire situation. I`m sitting here thinking about, you know, the fact that she had no socks on. So what that tells me is that she was picked up out of bed in a rush, in a definite, in a -- trying to, you know, get out of there as quickly as possible.
GRACE: And to Ali Velshi, CNN reporter. Do you think whoever dropped this girl of was counting on her being able to give the police so much info?
VELSHI: I got to tell you, whoever this is, that would seem pretty stupid because I`ve seen two minutes of this little girl talking, and it would strike me that she`s pretty smart. It doesn`t matter to me, not being involved in the legal side of things, whether or not she`s allowed to testify. She`s been able to give the police tips that have turned out to be correct so far. If she can help people find her mother, that`s what matters.
GRACE: Everybody, please help us tonight. Valley Lozada, 4 years old, walking barefoot on the streets of New York. Her mother, Monica, missing.
Very quickly to "Case Alert." Modern-day Bonnie and Clyde, George and Jennifer Hyatte -- remember them? Well, they`re back at the same courthouse they blasted out of a month ago. Jennifer Hyatte, former prison nurse, allegedly shot and killed a veteran law officer, Wayne Cotton Morgan. Why? To free her hubby, George Hyatte, then at the courthouse. The couple on the run before finally surrendering to police at a Columbus, Ohio, motel. Both now charged with first degree murder.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ever seen him before?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, but he looks creepy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you see in this face?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little wild, a little intense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Napa police say it`s the face of a killer. Twenty-six-year-old Eric Copple, a Napa resident with no prior record, was charged Wednesday with the stabbing murders of 26-year-old Adriane Insogna and her roommate, 26-year-old Leslie Mazzara, back on November 1, 2004.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Straight out to "Inside Edition`s" chief correspondent, Jim Moret. Even if the police have the right guy, I don`t know what could the motive be?
JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": That`s the big question, frankly, because it`s every indication that Eric Copple knew both of these people. In fact, he married one of their friends just a few months after this killing, and one of the victims` moms actually spoke at their wedding. If that doesn`t give you the creeps, I don`t know what does.
But we do know that these two young women were brutally stabbed. Police said there was a big break in the case when they discovered that there were cigarette butts which matched the DNA of blood left at the scene, and the cigarettes were a very unusual brand. This person, apparently, according to police, felt they were closing in on him and actually turned himself in on Tuesday night.
GRACE: That was some good police work. They got DNA off a cigarette butt?
MORET: They sure did.
GRACE: Where was the butt?
MORET: Butts were just outside the house, which leads police to believe that whoever committed these murders -- and they believe that it`s Eric Copple -- was watching this house very closely.
GRACE: OK. Now, let me get this straight. Copple, in his 20s, married one of the best friends of Adriane Insogna, correct?
MORET: Yes. That`s absolutely right.
GRACE: and the murders went down four months before they were married?
MORET: The murders went down around -- on November 1. They were married in February.
GRACE: So this guy, at his own wedding, watched the dead girl`s mother read a passage at his wedding and he went ahead and kissed the bride?
MORET: He even went to memorial services for these people. That`s the type of cold-blooded killer police are describing.
GRACE: Well, they better come up with a lot more than a little spit on a cigarette butt.
MORET: Frankly, nobody in the community can understand what could have happened. They say that this person kept to himself, didn`t appear to be working, but they simply have no motive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VIRGINIA CHA, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi everybody, I`m Virginia Cha, here`s your HEADLINE PRIME NEWS BREAK. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger got a bird`s eye view of the two fires burning around Los Angeles. Favorable conditions are helping firefighters get the upper hand on the 21,000 acre blaze outside Chatsworth. So far, fire officials say they`ve saved 2,000 houses.
Another wildfire is burning in the hills near Burbank. So far, it has charred 500 acres.
Judith Miller spent her first day out of jail testifying before a federal grand jury. They`re looking into whether someone at the White House leaked the identity of an undercover CIA operative. Miller was released from prison yesterday after spending 85 days behind bars. She was let go after the source she had been protecting, Vice President Cheney`s chief of staff, told her she could testify.
The army is closing its fiscal year by missing its enlistment target by the largest margin since 1979. They`d hoped for 80,000 recruits, but will fall 7,000 recruits short.
And that`s the news for mow. I`m Virginia Cha. Back to NANCY GRACE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RICHARD MELTON, NAPA POLICE DEPARTMENT: We`ve had admissions. We`ve had things that were said in the admissions that we have not released to anybody, and then we have other physical evidence, DNA, that we feel like it`s consistent with what our beliefs are. So we feel absolutely sure that Eric Matthew Koppel (ph) is the suspect in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Chief Richard Melton from Napa PD, speaking to the CBS "Early Show." Welcome back, everybody. Inexplicable double murder on Halloween in prestigious Napa Valley. Let me go straight out to the best friend of one of the victims. Kelly McCorkle is with us from Columbia, South Carolina. Kelly, what can you tell us about your friend?
KELLY MCCORKLE, BEST FRIEND OF MURDER VICTIM LESLIE MAZZARA: Well, I can tell you that Leslie is one of the most amazing people I have ever met. She just loved life, she loved people, and it`s just a tragedy that the world has to be without her.
GRACE: Was she happy there in California?
MCCORKLE: Oh, she loved it, and she loved Napa Valley. Had some great friends and loved her job. She loved working at the winery.
GRACE: Everybody, you`re seeing shots of Leslie Mazzara, just 26 at the time of her stabbing death, a beauty queen. She was stabbed in her own bed. Kelly when you got the news, what was your first thought?
MCCORKLE: I didn`t believe it at all. I was totally taken by shock. And I immediately just began to call her cell phone over and over and over again, thinking she would answer and that they had the wrong person. And it just broke my heart.
GRACE: Kelly did she have any relationship with, be it just a casual friendship, with the defendant?
MCCORKLE: You know, I never heard her talk about him at all. So, you know, she never mentioned his name, but I`m sure, you know, if it was Adrian`s (ph) best friend`s boyfriend or fiance, that she had to have at least probably met him once or twice.
GRACE: Do you know if there was any sign of a struggle or sex attack in the home, Kelly?
MCCORKLE: I`m not sure of all the details. I do think there was some type of struggle. I`m not sure about the sexual assault.
GRACE: Jim Moret -- that does makes sense. Didn`t police find the assailant`s blood within the home?
JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION" CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: They did, which indicates that there was a struggle in the home, but no information at all about a possible sexual attack. But it was the blood that they were able to match, supposedly, with saliva, from the cigarette butts to establish a DNA link.
GRACE: Well, OK. What in the hay is the motive, unless this guy was a stalker that went into the home, if it`s even him. You know, they had a very unconventional way -- everybody, you are looking at video of Leslie Mazzara, age 26 at the time of her death. She was a South Carolina beauty queen.
I want to quickly go to Casey Jordan, criminologist, former criminal profiler. Police used an unconventional method here. They cast a wide net and took DNA from over 200 men that knew one of the two girls.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST, FMR. CRIMINAL PROFILER: Yes, and that`s one of the largest voluntary DNA collection samples that I know of. The only other one I know that even approaches that is one from Massachusetts that went to about 175.
But for that many people to come forward and voluntarily give their DNA was very important in breaking this case, because we know that Mr. Koppel did not voluntarily give his DNA, and did not return calls when the police continually tried to contact him to get him to cooperate and come in.
GRACE: That was the case of the novelist, where practically everybody in the whole town, every man, was asked to give his DNA and most of them complied willingly. Joe Lawless, right there, right at the inception of the case, we haven`t even gone to a jury yet -- you got a problem. This taking DNA from over 200 people ...
JOSEPH LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I mean DNA -- I think the DNA in this case is going to make or break it.
GRACE: Yes.
LAWLESS: Because you`re right. This is ...
GRACE: You get that suppressed, you`re up the river without a paddle.
LAWLESS: Well, absolutely. And because this is a case, there`s no motive, there`s no connection other than the fact they knew each other. The DNA puts him in the room and you go with the admissions. Then you have a link, you have a murder.
When you have voluntary sweeps of an entire community, as a criminal defense lawyer, I have a problem with that because there are some people who just for reasons of privacy might not want to give a sample. When you say no to something like that, you run the risk that in the eyes of the police, that makes you a suspect.
LAWLESS: I understand that Koppel -- and this is what`s interesting about him to me. Here`s a guy, who if you believe what appears to be, he`s a stone cold killer. He conducted a surveillance, but then at some point, when he believes he`s a suspect -- and I have to believe it`s some kind of guilt feelings inside -- he goes in to talk to police voluntarily. I mean, this is -- it`s remarkable case from the perspective of what really went on in his mind.
GRACE: Well, Jim Moret, do we know exactly what his so-called admissions are?
MORET: Well, the police said this. They said that his admissions were tantamount to a confession and they were videotaped. That`s all they`ve said. But he went in, and he didn`t go in voluntarily to talk to them.
He went in to turn himself in because after the police revealed that they had cigarettes and it was a specific brand of Camel Turkish Gold cigarettes that Eric smoked and that they believed the killer smoked, they think that`s what prompted him to go in, because he thought he was going to be caught.
GRACE: Yes, Lauren Lake, you got a problem when you try to explain to the jury as a defense lawyer why your client smoked 25, 30 cigarettes outside this young girl`s window, all right, and they find his saliva on the cigarette butts.
And when it comes to the sweep of DNA of these 200 men, hey, take my DNA. I`ve got my toothbrush right here. I`d be mad at you if you if you didn`t. So he`s got a problem. He`s dammed if he does, dammed if he doesn`t. If he refuses to submit to DNA, he`s a target. If he submits, then it may match.
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly. And I mean, even if it matches though, Nancy, I mean, truthfully, it seems like we`ve got this big Perry Mason moment going on, the Hail Mary pass that`s going to be caught. But what we know is that Hail Mary passes can be caught and they also can be dropped.
And the prosecutor and the police better make sure they`re dotting their Is and crossing their Ts because after you study the chain of that evidence, the preservation of it -- it`s been a year since this case started. Where have the cigarette butts been?
And then you get into court and we all know how forensic evidence can be blown to smithereens under cross-examination because we saw that in OJ. So it`s not all cut and dry the way it seems.
GRACE: Not yet. You`re right. And I`m still concerned about the 200 people, mass DNA. And very quickly to Casey Jordan, how do you think police went about interrogating this guy?
JORDAN: Well, I think that they were a lot lucky and very strategic. But mostly, they were diligent and that`s the key here. Because it has been 11 months since these murders and they really did not have him on their suspect list, but he was on the list of people they were trying to contact and probably just do general interviewing.
They did know that the saliva on the cigarettes matched the blood inside the crime scene, probably from defensive wounds, but they don`t know who the DNA belongs to. When they did that Hail Mary pass, as Lauren calls it, and they said that they took a holdback, a piece of information about the brand of cigarettes, which were a very unusual brand of Camel cigarettes that had only been on the market for a few months.
They put it out that they knew their suspect smoked those cigarettes and he basically thought the jig was up and went in and made his admissions, because he thought they had him nailed to the wall. And, in fact, they were trying -- they were just betting and they were lucky.
GRACE: Well, two words of advice, since nobody asked. Number one, the kooky Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, they`re ones that said the Pledge Of Allegiance is unconstitutional because the mentions God. They`re going to be reviewing this case if there`s a conviction.
So, prosecutor, cross those Ts, dot those Is, and also, please play the wedding video for the jury, where this guy saw the dead girl`s mother and then he put a wet one on the bride. Please play that for the jury.
Quickly, we at Nancy Grace want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at one-year-old Jaylan Simmons, last seen Sioux City, Iowa, July 26th. If you have info on this sweet child, Jaylan Simmons, call Sioux City Police, 712-279-6960 or go to beyondmissing.com. Please help us.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do we believe she`s gone off on her own? No. Do we believe she`s being held against her will at this point? Yes. But there`s just simply no evidence of a murder or anything other than Taylor will come back safe and sound.
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GRACE: As each day passes, it becomes less and less likely that we`ll find 17-year-old Taylor Behl alive. Please help us. The Virginia Commonwealth University student went missing on Labor Day. Still with us, Jim Moret, chief correspondent at "Inside Edition." He`s been following the case closely. Jim, what`s the latest?
MORET: The latest is, police revealed an inventory of items seized from Ben Fawley`s apartment. Ben Fawley is the person you remember who was originally a person of interest. No longer called that, but clearly still a possible suspect in this case. He`s in custody on 16 counts of child pornography and he was a friend of Taylor Behl`s.
This is what they recovered, some of the items. They recovered skateboards, sex toys, women`s undergarments, a box with bones -- very unusual things to recover from this person`s house, but we already know he`s a very unusual person.
GRACE: Yes, well, you know, you got me at the box of bones. You really didn`t have to say anything else after that, Jim Moret. I have got what we call a return. When a search warrant is effected in a car, a home, a apartment, police under the law must fill out a return what they take from the home. And man what a return this is. Very quickly, to criminologist Casey Jordan, a box of bones?
JORDAN: Yes. I hate to say that my gut reaction was to remember Jeffrey Dahmer, who used to keep animal bones and play with them. It isn`t a good sign that he`s unusual. You know, the entire list, the entire inventory needs to be taken in its totality and looked at.
There could be explanations for some of the items on the list. But when you look at the array of things which raises eyebrows, it does not bode well for this man.
GRACE: Joining us now, a very special guest. Taylor Behl`s father is with us, Matt Behl. Matt, welcome. What can you tell us tonight?
MATT BEHL, TAYLOR BEHL`S FATHER: Well, nothing really new, other than what`s been reported in the media regarding the finding of my daughter. The Richmond police have been in constant contact with me, and let me know updates every day.
GRACE: You have got to be beside yourself. On my way over to the show tonight, I called my dad on the phone and I remember him and my mom working so hard to put me through school. And your girl, 17 -- this was her first year at school, living out all her dreams and your dreams.
BEHL: First ten days of school. It`s -- I`m sure that on a lot of parents out there, when they first send their 17-year-old child or 18-year- old child off to school, go through a lot of heartaches. And to have your daughter missing after ten days is pretty tough.
GRACE: Matt, what can you tell me about Taylor? I`m just -- I know she had a fling with this guy. What she was thinking with a 38-year-old man and she`s 17, I don`t know, but 17-year-old girls, they do things. My question to you is, was she a trusting person? Could someone have, like, lured her into their apartment if she knew them?
BEHL: Absolutely. Taylor was a normal 17-year-old child, young woman. She made some mistakes. She made a bad choice. Ben Fawley, bad choice. Skateboarding at 10:00 at night, bad choice.
GRACE: Well, I doubt anybody on this panel tonight would volunteer that there`s not something in their background that they didn`t think was exactly a good choice, especially at age 17. What kind of person is Taylor?
BEHL: She`s a very engaging girl. She thinks she`s a lot more mature than her 17 years of age. That may have been part of the problem. She may have been too trusting to somebody that`s more than twice her age.
GRACE: To forensic psychologist, Dr. Michael Nuccitelli, Michael, taking a long look at this guy, Fawley, 38-year-old amateur photographer on disability, not working. He had plenty of time to collect sex toys, bondage equipment, a yearbook.
I`m anxious to find out, was this somebody`s college yearbook? Was he looking through it to look at girls? He`s not an official suspect. What about that Web site? Michael, that`s a whole case study itself.
MICHAEL NUCCITELLI, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Clearly, this is a strange character. The other piece is, from my readings on this case, is that he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
GRACE: You know his nickname is Skulz, right? Did you look at his Web site?
NUCCITELLI: Yes, I did. Well, I haven`t checked out the Web site but I do know that somebody has previously diagnosed him with bipolar disorder, and that in and of itself is going to make him a strange chap. But if he`s not taking medication for the bipolar, if he`s not getting treatment, certainly somebody who is not getting treated for manic depression can do something very serious, such as hurt another person.
GRACE: Joe Lawless, I only have a few remaining moments. Put on your game face. You`re the defense lawyer, not me. What`s your defense of this guy? Did you see this return? Hello, bones in a box.
LAWLESS: Well, first of all, I don`t think I`d want to have a client whose nickname was Skulz under any circumstances. I was ...
GRACE: I couldn`t wait to blurt that out in opening statements.
LAWLESS: Somehow I think you might find a way to get it out in the first ten seconds. I think he was smart enough to come forward and talk about the relationship, because -- and I don`t like to assume that Taylor`s missing, particularly with Matt on the panel. But if something did happen to her, he has a reasonable explanation for the presence of DNA.
Hopefully -- as much as I know you`d like to prosecute a guy like this, and if I were a prosecutor, I`d like to prosecute him -- hopefully there`s not going to be any reason to and Taylor will turn up. But the evidence against this fellow if they can link him to anything that happened to Taylor, could be damning.
GRACE: And very quickly, Lauren Lake, what about these stolen tags? Police seem to think they play a big part in the case.
LAKE: They do, but they need more. We need more evidence, Nancy. Right now, we just have a weird guy. And weird is not going to get a conviction.
GRACE: Yes, a weird guy who places himself with a girl the night she went missing, claiming he had sex with her.
LAKE: Yes, he likes pornography and he`s weird, but we saw with Michael Jackson that weirdos that like child pornography can be found not guilty by juries if the evidence isn`t there.
GRACE: Yes, OK. You know, Matt, can you tell me about the fundraiser very quickly? I want people to hear about it.
BEHL: There`s a fundraiser at Jammin` Java, which is a coffee house in Vienna, Virginia. It`s this Sunday, October 2nd, and it begins at 1:00. Three bands, like to have a lot of people come out and help raise some money to -- for the reward fund to bring Taylor home.
GRACE: Again, Fawley not an official suspect. He has apparently admitted to having sex with the girl the night she went missing. Taylor Behl -- the fundraiser at Jammin` Java -- if you have any information, 877- 244-HELP.
Very quickly to tonight`s all points bulletin: FBI law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Keir Sanders wanted in connection with the murder of both his grandparents, W.B. and Alma Crawford (ph) in Mississippi in 1985. Sanders, 41, 5`10" 150 lbs, brown hair, blue eyes. If you have info on Sanders, call the FBI, 601-849-5000.
Local news next for some of you. We`ll all be right back and remember, live coverage Monday of the Wisconsin hunting murder trial. 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Eric Bernholtz, just 23. An American hero.
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GRACE: Man, what a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives. Breaking news in the Natalee Holloway case. The prime suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot, admits outright that he lied about the night the 18-year-old Alabama beauty, Natalee Holloway, went missing.
QUESTION: Did you have sex with her that night?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: That`s, first of all, that`s none of your business.
QUESTION: Did anything else happen that night?
VAN DER SLOOT: No. Well, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, yes, he did, in his statements, Joran says that, yes he had sex with her. And it`s also at his home.
GRACE: A beautiful co-ed, 17-year-old Taylor Behl, missing from Virginia Commonwealth University, her freshman year. Can police get clues from stolen car tags, skateboarders, and an amateur photographer more than twice Taylor`s age?
This guy has a rap sheet, including assault. He admits he had sex with her that night.
Here are the things seized from his home: a gym bag with spike bracelets. You know what? You gotta have your spike bracelets. Of course, you can`t get past pasted two dildos. Knife, tissues and tampon wrappers. Before you wonder why those were seized, remember, DNA, DNA, DNA.
It`s a parent`s worst nightmare. You leave your child with a baby- sitter. You come home, the baby`s dead. Where is the defense going to go except blame the parents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do think the parents were a little irresponsible in this case, in leaving their infant with a 13-year-old. I don`t think a 13-year-old has --
GRACE: Hey, hey, I baby-sat when I was 13. Are you calling me irresponsible? Just a mere ten years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were just special, Nancy.
GRACE: Police believe they`ve discovered the body of 19-year-old Pamela Kinney. When Pamela disappeared August 14, her family found me on vacation, begged us to help find their girl. Night after night, we showed you Pam`s picture. We didn`t find Pam fast enough. There is a $6,000 reward for information leading to an arrest and conviction in this beautiful girl`s case. Now, an angel.
I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but as always, our biggest thank you is to you, for being with us this week. Inviting us into your homes.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world and a special good night and thank you from the control room. Good a night, everybody. And good night from two precious guests here on the set. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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