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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired October 7, 2005 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: We will not tire or rest until the war on terror is won.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The idea that these terrorists and insurgents are fighting the presence of the multinational force -- they're terrorism is the reason why the multinational force has to stay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not aware that we were aware.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: It wasn't too long ago that this single issue dominated our program. Every week for years it seemed the country in question was Iraq.

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

Well, a funny thing happened. Diplomacy ended, the war began and other U.N. issues, like Iran and Oil For Food, popped up. For many in the United States the war in Iraq remained something far away, as long as you don't know any of the troops. A subway terror alert in New York City this weekend, allegedly related to al Qaeda arrests somewhere in Iraq is another annoying reminder for commuters.

This week, the leaders of the two countries that spearheaded the invasion -- liberation action -- deny their continued presence increases the insurgency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We were not in Iraq on September 11, 2001 and al Qaeda attacked us anyway. The hatred of the radicals existed before Iraq was an issue and it will exist after Iraq is no longer an excuse.

BLAIR: We've got to at every single level expose these elements that are trying to destroy a new Iraq getting on its feet and realize this is a battle now for the future of Iraq, for the future of the region, I actually believe for the future security of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: At the end of the coming week, Iraq votes on a new constitution. This past week, after pressure from the United States and the United Nations, Shiites in the parliament reversed course and dropped plans for election procedures which would have made it harder for Sunni opponents to block adoption on referendum day.

Wouldn't you be interested in hearing what is going on in Iraq from people that have really been there? I do.

Joining us is Jane Arraf, who was CNN's Iraq bureau chief and is now a fellow at the New York Council on Foreign Relations. Also with us, Peter Khalil, who was in Baghdad as the director of national security policy at the Coalition Provisions Authority -- remember the CPA? He was an independent civil servant there. He is now a Middle East and Africa analyst at the Eurasia Group. And rounding out our been-there-in-Baghdad team, David Enders, freelance journalists, co-founder of the "Baghdad Bulletin," the first attempt post-invasion to start up a daily English language news outlet. I always found reading the "Baghdad News" every morning at the Al-Rashid Hotel when Saddam was still in power to be very informative.

Jane Arraf, now that we have you here in person, you're not wearing a helmet, what is the situation in Iraq? We know it's difficult for journalists to travel there. Give us a current status report, please.

JANE ARRAF, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Gosh, I guess the situation would be much more complex, as you know, than what we get from TV or news.

ROTH: TV is not good for complexity.

ARRAF: You're absolutely right. That's the frustrating thing, because if you're there, obviously you get the car bombs, you get the violence, the political goings on, but you also get that texture which is so important, I think, to make a judgment on where that country is going. You see kids going to school in the morning. You see people opening up their shops. And an amazingly resilient country. Who knew it would be like this. But I think there is still a bit of hope there.

ROTH: David Enders, you're just back from Iraq again. What is your assessment?

DAVID ENDERS, FREE-LANCE JOURNALIST: Well, I think people are actually becoming a lot more depressed with the situation and I think have a lot less faith in the political process as a whole than they may have had two years ago. Certainly people are going to school, still opening their shops. But generally each time I go back I find more people I knew that have either left the country or are trying to leave the country or in some cases have been killed.

ROTH: Peter?

PETER KHALIL, EURASIA GROUP: Well, I think it's complex, Richard.

Obviously, if you believe the polling, the majority of Iraqis would like to see the coalition forces leave. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they support the insurgency. And I think the insurgency, if you believe the reports and the intelligence, is around 30,000 to 40,000 fighters, maybe a quarter of a million people supporting them. Even inside the Sunni minority, that's still a minority within a minority.

ROTH: All right, well, let's talk about what the president of the United States was talking about there in his speech. I mean, are the U.S. troops causing more terrorism, becoming a breeding ground in Iraq? Or are they helping to fight terrorism for those of us living in the United States and elsewhere -- Jane.

ARRAF: Oh, my goodness, that is such a big question, Richard.

You know, one thing that is interesting about being in Iraq is we've seen the evolution of the insurgency, and they're very, very clever. And the targets now, you can't say the targets now are just Americans. They are for the most part Iraqis, and it is something that has evolved and spiraled almost out of control.

But just going back to the constitution, I bet one of the mistakes we make is thinking that Iraqis are obsessed with the constitution or politics. They are not. Most of them don't care. Most of them don't know. They care about security, economics, and until those are fixed the constitution is a luxury.

ROTH: David, what have you seen on the ground? You have gone in areas where some of the larger corporate media members can't for safety reasons or whatever. What do you see when you're out on your own that perhaps others don't?

ENDERS: Well, I think that there is generally a sense amongst the great majority of Iraqis that the United States military presence is causing a good deal of the military resistance and military actions against both the United States and Iraqi security forces, and that essentially for things to start taking a positive shape, withdrawal needs to be talked about seriously.

ARRAF: Can I just say though, because I know that's an easy excuse, but when you really look at it, a lot of the attacks are in places where there are no American forces. They're in places where there -- that was a reason, that was an excuse. I don't think it is any more.

KHALIL: And they're purely against civilian targets. I mean, we've seen so many suicide bombings against, particularly against Shiite civilians, women, children, religious pilgrims. So I think I would agree with you, Jane, I don't think that's as much of an excuse any more.

ENDERS: Well, that's true, there certainly have been very wide attacks on Shiite civilians and very prominent attacks. But also with that you have sustained attacks against the Iraqi military and especially the Iraqi police, who because of those they haven't been able to set up any real civil order in a lot of places.

ROTH: Is there going to be a civil war?

KHALIL: Well, if I can jump in here, I think the political -- this is why the political process is so important from the Iraqi perspective. I know it has a domestic element here in the United States and it has to do with this administration's popularity, but in the Iraqi context, I think if -- actually, I'm counter-intuitive on this. A lot of people are saying there is going to be civil war because of this constitution. I think if it fails, it is more likely that you will see violence within Shiite militia against other Shiite militia, Kurds moving away, and I think the violence will be a lot worse than it actually is now.

Look, I think even if it does pass, the violence will continue as is. Clearly Zarqawi doesn't believe in the governing structures that are being set up.

ROTH: So, Jane, is this constitution a luxury, is it something that is really required at this point? Why the attention on it?

ARRAF: I think it is required. Part of why the attention on it is it's a goalpost, a signpost, and the U.S. administration can use it the same way they used the first election, saying, look, there is progress being made. And in some ways that is legitimate.

ROTH: But are they putting too many of these goalposts in the way or too early, too soon, while the country is still on its walking feet?

ARRAF: There is still a lot to be done in that country, and many people there would feel a constitution is a luxury, that they're not there yet.

ROTH: And how safe is it for journalists? I mean, are we really saying anything about what goes on in Iraq because of the threat?

ARRAF: I think we are. I think people like David, who go out there, I think the CNN people who are out there every day, and particularly the Iraqi journalists, are risking a lot to bring viewers and readers a picture of what is going on.

The security restrictions are immense. I think we're seeing less of what is going on in Baghdad than we are in other places.

ROTH: So did the CPA and the Americans pretty much handle everything properly in the last few years since the war?

ARRAF: You know the answer to that.

ROTH: No I don't. You were there, you tell me.

ARRAF: I think the consensus is there were some serious mistakes made. Most people would say disbanding the army -- I've been there watching Iraqi army generals suddenly thrown out of work, dressed up in their suits, trying to talk to 20-year-old soldiers at the gates of the convention center. Disbanding the Ba'ath Party. I mean, these are things that we are seeing being rescinded, and I think there is a consensus that they shouldn't have been done.

ROTH: Peter?

KHALIL: I'll make two points on that and they're important points, and I've heard the criticism of disbanding the army. But if you look at the old Iraqi army, there was something like 400,000. The majority were conscripts, the majority were Shiite Iraqis. And certainly most of those have not joined the insurgency, quite clearly. They're not former Ba'athists.

With regards to the Ba'ath Party issue or de-Ba'athification, I think that is a problem. There were 2.5 million members of the Ba'ath Party, a majority were Sunni, and you can't just simply purge all of the government sectors of all of those people. There are a lot of people there with skills, technocrats, doctors, engineers and teachers and so on, who really just joined the Ba'ath Party to further their career.

ROTH: David?

ENDERS: Well, yes, and I think also with the reconstruction efforts, the same thing that happened with de-Ba'athification just happened on a larger level, locking Iraqi technocrats out of the process and just not listening to what they had to say.

I had some Iraqi colleagues who were educated in the United Kingdom at some of the same places the coalition advisers were coming from, and they were being paid $1,000 a month for their services and didn't feel like particularly they carried any weight in talking about what was going on.

ROTH: So the American generals who come back to brief Congress, sometimes they tell a more rosy picture to the journalists, and to the Congressmen they say we're still going to take time. How long is this all going to go? I know in the media some people want instant results, but what do you see going forward -- Jane.

ARRAF: What I think is really interesting is that you are starting to see what many people would feel is a more balanced picture from these army generals and other military people who are saying for the first time, look, things aren't that great. Look at the constraints we're working with. You're hearing that off the record. You're seeing it on the record.

ROTH: What are you hearing from the American soldiers that you were embedded with?

ARRAF: A wide variety of things. For a lot of them, they never believed there was WMD, but they do believe that somehow they are keeping America safe from terror.

Now when it gets to the point when they're spending their second and third and fourth deployments there, that's getting really tricky. Their families are saying enough. You're not going back this time. And we're starting to see that happen.

ROTH: David, are you going back? Is it -- when does it become too dangerous for you?

ENDERS: Well, I'm supposed to go back later this month and it's getting to that point where it is close to too dangerous.

ROTH: Final point, Peter, on the future?

KHALIL: I think it really depends on the political process over the next couple of months. I think if the constitution passed and they keep rebuilding the Iraqi security forces and focus on the quality of those forces rather than the quantity of those forces, there may be a chance to realistically handover responsibility to the Iraqis.

ROTH: OK, for this snapshot look at Iraq, and we could go in many other directions, thank you all very much. With me here in the studio, Jane Arraf, formerly with CNN in Baghdad and throughout Iraq wearing a helmet, now without the helmet, now with the Council on Foreign Relations. I may need a helmet after the program when Jane gets a hold of me. Peter Khalil, at the Eurasia Group, thank you. And David Enders, freelance journalist, bound for Baghdad again, also here in New York with us. Thank you.

It took the United States military to arrest Saddam Hussein and ready him for a war crimes trial. Coming up, one man's attempt to bring to prosecution another national leader suspected of mass murder.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLA DEL PONTE, WAR CRIMES PROSECUTOR: Of course it is always what I am thinking, when are they coming, and particularly in view of the completion strategy. I need Karadzic and Mladic before the end of the year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: When does a war crimes prosecutor begin to sound like a broken record? When it's Carla del Ponte still hoping someone gives up Bosnian Serb war crimes indictees Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic of Bosnia War infamy.

Elsewhere on the international justice trail, Belgium is seeking the extradition of the former leader of Chad. Hissene Habre has been living in Senegal for the last 15 years. An international arrest warrant issued last month charges Habre was responsible for mass murder and torture, acts carried out by his secret political police from 1982 to 1990.

No extradition treaty exists between Senegal, where Habre is, and Belgium. The Senegalese government appears to be leaving it up to its own internal judicial system to decide whether Habre could be turned over, though that method hasn't achieved success before, say advocates of extradition. The United Nations is urging action by Senegal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: I think the indictment of the court ought to be respected and countries around the world should cooperate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: On Friday, a press conference was held in Senegal by political prisoners who say they were tortured under the rule of former Chad leader Hissene Habre. They urged extradition.

A lot of the attention on this case has been stirred up by the lengthy crusade of one Human Rights Watch official. He's Reed Brody, and we know because he has stirred up action before on this program. Reed is on the line from Dakar, Senegal right now.

Reed, how long have you been pursuing Hissene Habre? Tell us about this journey of yours.

REED BRODY, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Well, we've been working with Habre's victims for the last six years. We filed the case with them here in Senegal in 2000 and a Senegalese judge indicted Hissene Habre for war crimes, crimes against humanity and torture before the Senegalese courts ruled that they could not try to case in Senegal. And then we helped the victims file the cases in Belgium. So it's been six years that I've been working with the victims.

ROTH: Now we have video of you looking through paperwork and files I think related to your pursuit. Tell us what Hissene Habre is guilty of in your view.

BRODY: Well, he's alleged to have murdered thousands of Chadians, to have engaged in systematic torture, three different campaigns of ethnic cleansing. The documents that you see there are the files of his political police that I happened to stumble on in Chad.

Those files, which include death certificates, daily lists of dead prisoners, surveillance reports, notes to Habre about every little thing, detail how Habre planned and executed the repression of the Chadian people. Those documents include the names of more than 12,000 victims of arbitrary arrest and other crimes and they include the names of 1,208 different people who died in detention in the jails of Jurmana (ph) alone.

ROTH: What is the reaction of the Senegalese government to your efforts? Will they turn him over to Belgium?

BRODY: Well, I hope so. I think this is a chance for Senegal really to break the cycle of impunity in which tyrants pillage their treasury, brutalize their people and then just retire with their bank accounts to seaside villas.

President Wade of Senegal has said on a number of occasions that he has no objection to the extradition of Hissene Habre. We know, though, that Habre has taken the many millions of dollars that he stole from the Chadian treasury and used it to good effect here, placing himself under the protection of the very powerful religious leaders, buying up influence within Senegalese society.

We hope that President Wade has the courage to go past that and comply with Senegal's international legal obligation under the International Torture Convention, which is either to prosecute Habre, which Senegal decided not to do in 2000, or to extradite him so he can get a fair trial in Belgium.

ROTH: Can you describe the reaction you get there? You said you have been working on it for six years. Are there people who can't believe -- what's this Human Rights Watch special counsel doing here in this old case? Or are you getting better reaction as time has gone on?

BRODY: Well, in Chad, of course, the reaction is one of total joy. It's not just the Chadian victims who have been working on this, but I think the entire Chadian society wants to see Hissene Habre prosecuted in a country that's really split on north-south Muslim-Christian lines. Habre had thousands of victims in every camp, so there is near unanimity in Chadian society. And the Chadian government has actually supported the prosecution and has supported the request to extradite Hissene Habre to Belgium.

In Senegal, I think the feeling so far is less clear. A lot of people don't know what Habre's crimes were. There is a sentiment that you shouldn't send an African to Europe to be prosecuted. But as you mentioned, today a number of victims came and gave a very widely attended press conference, including a Senegalese man who was in Hissene Habre's jails and whose compatriot was killed in Hissene Habre's jails.

So I think the Senegalese people are starting to see who Hissene Habre was and why it's important that he be brought to justice.

ROTH: What is the impact of the Pinochet case here in your pursuit?

BRODY: Well, it was really Pinochet that began this. It was after our work on the Pinochet case that we were contacted by the Chadian victims, who said, you know, we have our own Pinochet here. And in fact they have somebody who probably killed a lot mere people than Pinochet.

The Pinochet case showed us that these great legal principals, the Torture Convention, the idea that a former head of state doesn't have immunity and can be tried for heinous crimes no matter where he is found -- the Pinochet case showed us that those principles could actually be put into practice and could be used on behalf of victims to achieve justice where justice previously had seemed out of reach.

ROTH: Reed, finally, I think on your wall, in your office in New York, you have a world map with pictures of other dictators. Who are some of the other people you would like to see behind bars or in a court?

BRODY: One by one, Richard. But I think we could take people like Mengistu, of Ethiopia, who is now in Zimbabwe, Ralph Sedras (ph) and Prosper Avril (ph) of Haiti. Osama bin Laden is on my wall. Saddam Hussein is on my wall. I think -- it's a big list unfortunately.

ROTH: All right. They can run but they can't hide, say people like Reed Brody of Human Rights Watch, senior counsel there. Thank you very much, Reed Brody in Dakar, Senegal, here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. Thanks, Reed.

Hissene Habre can't be brought to the fledgling International Criminal Court. His alleged crimes were committed long before that court began. But five men elsewhere in Africa may have something to worry about.

Uganda confirmed Friday news first revealed at the United Nations Thursday by William Swing (ph), the U.N.'s Congo rep, that members of the Lord's Resistance Army, known for its butchery and abduction of thousands of children, now face arrest warrants by the ICC, the International Criminal Court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is true. I can't give you details because I don't know how much the ICC has put on the public record. I know they have issued arrest warrants for five people and these notifications went out last week to the DRC government, Uganda government and I believe the Sudan government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Good to see you again.

MOHAMAD ELBARADEI, NOBEL WINNER: Congratulations, Richard. Thank you very much.

ROTH: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Mohamad ElBaradei, the winner of this year's Noble Peace Prize, awarded Friday, along with his organization, the International Atomic Energy Agency. But did you hear him congratulate me in that interview last year? That's because he knew even then that DIPLOMATIC LICENSE has an uncanny way of foreshadowing peace prize winners.

Long time viewers know this, but if you appear on this program, you win the peace prize. You can't have one without the other, though I see people raising eyebrows in Oslo at that thought.

ElBaradei is now right in the middle of the nuclear proliferation puzzle with Iran, but he leaped to prominence during the tense run up to the Iraq war. For the longtime Egyptian diplomat, a moment in diplomatic history at the United Nations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELBARADEI: My experience in nuclear verification shows that it is possible, particularly with an intrusive verification system, to assess the presence or absence of a nuclear weapon program in a state, even without the full cooperation of the inspected state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: And in the end, on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, ElBaradei and Hans Blix were proven right.

That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth, in New York. Thanks for watching.

END

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