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American Morning

Millions of New York City Subway Commuters on Alert; Karl Rove Testifying for Fourth Time in CIA Leak Case

Aired October 07, 2005 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Millions of New York City subway commuters on alert yet again. City officials citing what they call credible terror threats in the coming days. But the Feds say they're not so sure. Two live reports are ahead.
Intercepted -- a letter from Osama bin Laden's top deputy to al Qaeda's leader in Iraq is snatched by the U.S. What does it say? We're live at the Pentagon with details on that.

And President Bush's main man, the man they call the architect, Karl Rove, testifying for the fourth time in that CIA leak case. And prosecutors say they're not ruling out an indictment aimed at Rove on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien.

M. O'BRIEN: Good morning to you.

We're glad you're with us this morning -- good morning to you.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And likewise.

Also ahead this morning, after calls, really desperate calls, to FEMA for help, a Katrina family in Mississippi found themselves forced to live in their home. I mean look at their home. They're surrounded by boxes of just stuff. And then, of course, lots of mold and -- anyway, CNN's Randi Kaye joined forces with General Honore and actually they ended up lending them a helping hand. We've got their story just ahead this morning.

M. O'BRIEN: The question was could they get into the trailer? They got them into the trailer, Randi Kaye and the general.

S. O'BRIEN: It was done and we've got the report just ahead.

M. O'BRIEN: We like to say Randi did, but I think the general had a little something to do with it, too.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, he did.

M. O'BRIEN: All right.

S. O'BRIEN: First, though, New Yorkers really getting on the subways this morning, going to work under the threat of a bomb attack. Local officials have taken pretty extraordinary measures to try to stop terrorism on the transit system. We've got full coverage of the threat in our CNN "Security Watch" this morning. Alina Cho at Penn Station for us. That's in midtown Manhattan. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon -- Alina, let's start with you.

You know, we've heard, actually, for a fairly long time, about the potential for attack on the New York City subway system.

What's different this time around?

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Soledad, good morning to you.

This is the first time that there has been a specific threat against the New York subways. And people here are taking that very, very seriously.

Here is what we know about the threat. The plot is said to involve the use of bombs, possibly hidden on baby carriages. And law enforcement sources tell CNN as many as 15 to 20 people may be involved in the planning.

Now, what does that mean for commuters, if you are here in New York?

Well, as you might expect, it means ramped up security. You may recall that New York began searching bags in July, shortly after the London bombings. And you are seeing a lot of that today, certainly here.

New Yorkers, though, are used to this kind of thing. Some people are jittery about this, some are not, but most say it will not stop them from using the subways to get to work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, well, you think twice, you know, should I take the car, should I take the train? But either you take the car and you go broke or you take the train and you just, you know, you pray.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's nothing you can do. You just hope that nothing happens and say a prayer and let it be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHO: Here at Penn Station, one of the busiest subway stations in the city, we should mention, we saw a lot of commuters this morning reading about the subway plot. But it doesn't appear, at this point at least, that a lot of people are too concerned about it.

New York's senator, Charles Schumer, called New Yorkers "a calm breed" and I can tell you as an avid subway rider, Soledad, and you know this, as well, that the subway is one of the most efficient and one of the most economical ways to get from Point A to Point B. And at this point it appears that many people this morning are taking it -- Soledad. S. O'BRIEN: I'm not sure we're a calm breed. I know we're a resigned breed. And, as you say, what else are you going to do and how else are you going to pay for that ride uptown?

Thanks, Alina -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, let's connect some dots here. From the South Bronx to the south of Baghdad, that's how this story goes.

Barbara Starr at the Pentagon with more on how a raid there is linked to what we're talking about here in Manhattan and New York this morning -- Barbara, fill us in.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Miles.

Apparently all of this may have actually begun in Iraq.

U.S. officials say it was some time in the last few days that they got the information from intelligence they gathered about the threat to the New York City subway system. That intelligence, whatever it was, which they're not saying, then, on Wednesday night, led them to a raid south of Baghdad in a place called Musayaf. They went there, they found three individuals that sources tell us they were looking for in Musayaf by name.

They found them. They believe they were part of an al Qaeda cell in Iraq that was, indeed, plotting attacks outside of Iraq, possibly in the United States.

Now, well placed U.S. military officials say this raid was conducted by both U.S. and Iraqi officials and also what they call another government agency. Around Washington, that's a code word for the CIA.

They are still gathering intelligence from that raid, trying to determine what these people may know about threats to the United States -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: So, Barbara, just clarify a point then.

Is it -- is the implication here that all of this was being orchestrated out of Iraq?

STARR: Difficult to say at this point. We don't know precisely where that original information, that original intelligence, came from about the threat to the New York City subway system. But wherever it came from, multiple officials tell us that information led them to this raid south of Baghdad. They are keeping the details, obviously, very closely held at this point -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, let's shift gears slightly here, as we talk about al Qaeda in Iraq.

There's an interesting letter that has come into the public domain here. I guess you could call them the killer Zs, Zarqawi and Zawahiri, corresponding with each other. And it really offers a kind of candid assessment that we haven't seen of where al Qaeda might be right now.

STARR: Well, Miles, this is a letter that U.S. officials, for whatever reason, are talking about in some detail. They say they have come into possession of this letter from Ayman al-Zawahiri who, of course, is Osama bin Laden's number two man, his top deputy, a letter he wrote to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al Qaeda leader in Iraq. And this is a letter in which he describes al Qaeda's strategy and al Qaeda's concerns.

And he makes, apparently, three key points in this letter. He talks about the fact that many al Qaeda leaders are lost; of course, captured or killed. He says that al Qaeda is resigned to defeat in Afghanistan. And he talks about the fact that al Qaeda's communications and funds are in big trouble. He even asks for money.

Now, U.S. officials say the intelligence analysis is absolute, that they are totally convinced this letter is genuine, that they tell us that is based on some of the language in the letter and how they came into possession of it, which they are not saying.

So the letter, they say, is genuine. But whether it reflects what is going on inside al Qaeda for certain, certainly remains another question -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, Barbara Starr, thank you very much.

Stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

Let's check some other headlines now.

Carol Costello in with that -- good morning, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Miles.

Good morning to all of you.

Now in the news, the chief nuclear inspector, Mohamed ElBaradei, says he's humbled and honored after winning this year's Nobel Peace Prize. ElBaradei and the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency, the IAEA, have been recognized for their efforts in limiting the spread of atomic weapons. ElBaradei spoke for the first time just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, IAEA DIRECTOR GENERAL: I want to basically send a very strong message, which keep doing what you are doing. Be impartial. Act with integrity. Speak truth to power. And that's what I'll continue to do. But the advantage of having this recognition today that it will strengthen my resolve. It will strengthen the integrity of the agency. The fact that there is overwhelming public support for our work definitely will hopefully help me to resolve some of the major outstanding issues we are facing today.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COSTELLO: And, by the way, ElBaradei's wife Aida told me on DAYBREAK they found out about the win by watching the announcement on CNN. And when they heard ElBaradei's name, there were tears and laughter at the same time.

President Bush is pushing vaccine makers to prepare for a possible bird flu pandemic. The president meeting with the heads of major vaccine companies later today to discuss ways to speed up vaccine production. In the meantime, the State Department is wrapping up an international avian flu conference. Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt said Thursday, "The world is woefully unprepared to respond to a pandemic."

Republican Senator Sam Brownback says he still has a lot of questions about Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers. A leading social conservative, Senator Brownback held a private meeting with Miers on Thursday. Brownback says he's concerned by the gaps in her record and says he might vote no on her nomination even if he were to get a personal appeal from President Bush.

And federal investigators are heading to the site of an explosion at a plastics plant in southern Texas. The blast sparked a fire, sending flames and heavy smoke into the air. At least eight people were injured, one seriously. The county commissioner says no toxic materials were released during that explosion.

Let's head to Atlanta now to check in with Chad -- good morning.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Carol.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, a family stuck living in a flood damaged home, even though the FEMA trailer sits right outside. We'll find out how CNN enlisted the help of Lieutenant General Russel Honore.

M. O'BRIEN: He might have come on his horse, I don't know. But he had the key. That's the important thing.

And a hero's welcome for a Reserve unit devastated by the violence in Iraq. We'll talk to their commander and ask him how they all got through it.

S. O'BRIEN: And much more on Karl Rove's new round of testimony in the CIA leak probe. We're going to check in with Jeff Toobin about whether Rove could be in trouble.

Those stories are all ahead as we continue, right here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Presidential adviser Karl Rove will testify once again before the grand jury investigating the leak of a CIA operative's identity. This is a fourth appearance and it's raised some speculation maybe Rove could be indicted.

CNN senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin, is with us this morning -- do you think that's fair speculation?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's fair speculation as long as you label it as such. You know, grand jury investigations are sort of like icebergs. Most of what is important is below the surface. You know, we don't know who all the witnesses have been and we don't know what they've testified to.

So, you know, yes, we know what Fitzgerald has been investigating, but I think it would be wrong to, you know, predict an indictment at this point.

S. O'BRIEN: Still, four visits is highly unusual.

TOOBIN: It's very unusual and it's even more unusual because of his situation. In a normal circumstance when someone is under a grand jury investigation, as Rove clearly is one of the subjects of this investigation, the lawyer would say take the fifth.

S. O'BRIEN: Don't answer.

TOOBIN: Don't testify. Don't go in there even once. Don't -- let them prove their case. That's why the fifth amendment exists.

S. O'BRIEN: He can't do that.

TOOBIN: He can't do that. President Bush has promised that everyone will cooperate. So Fitzgerald has this tremendous advantage of sort of testing out all of Rove's defenses, seeing what his defense would be, if there was a trial. Plus, putting him in the grand jury all these times exposes him to perjury and obstruction of justice charges if Fitzgerald believes he's not telling the truth.

S. O'BRIEN: Is that an indication, though, that somehow there is a contradiction in his testimony? I mean is it a matter of bringing him back because someone else has said something completely contradictory?

TOOBIN: Certainly that's one plausible interpretation, that bringing him back means that more information has come in and Fitzgerald, the prosecutor, wants to sort out what's what. But it doesn't necessarily mean that. That's why it's just, you have to be careful about assuming why someone is there.

S. O'BRIEN: What -- give me a sense of the prosecutor. I mean do you think that he is going to wrap-up any time soon? Because he doesn't have to.

TOOBIN: Well, he doesn't have to, but the grand jury expires October 28th and, yes, it could be extended. But this investigation has been going on for two years. For a case that is not all that complicated -- I mean it is about a single leak and, you know, two years is a very long time. Fitzgerald is incredibly zealous. He is, after all, the man who put Judy Miller, the "New York Times" reporter, in jail for all those months. That's not something a lot of prosecutors would do.

But he's also very apolitical. I knew him when he was here in Manhattan as a prosecutor. You know, he is not someone who comes out of the political world. He's a sort of just the facts guy. But he's very determined.

And I think he's going to let the chips fall where they may, is going to be his rule. He's not a professional Republican. He's not a Democratic hatchet man. He's just a prosecutor. And if he thinks there's a case, he'll bring it.

S. O'BRIEN: Meaning it could wrap-up when?

TOOBIN: I think it will wrap-up by the end of the month. Prosecutors don't like to extend grand juries, don't like to have to bring in a new grand jury. October 28th, I think, given how much time has passed, we'll know one way or the other whether there'll be indictments. There's no guarantee that there will be any indictments at all. But I think we'll know by the end of October.

S. O'BRIEN: I know you hate it when I make you guess, but I'm curious to know if you think Judy Miller is going to be the only person who spends any time in jail regarding this sort of overall story?

TOOBIN: I do.

S. O'BRIEN: Really?

TOOBIN: I do. I think...

S. O'BRIEN: She's -- no one is going to go to jail?

TOOBIN: You know, even if there are prosecutions, I think the odds of jail time way down the road are very remote. And that's just -- it just shows how unpredictable these investigations are. If you had said, you know, at the beginning of the investigation, the only person who's going to spend any time in prison is some reporter for the "New York Times," people would have said you're insane.

S. O'BRIEN: Who didn't even write about the story.

TOOBIN: Who didn't even write about the story.

S. O'BRIEN: I wonder what the cost is at the end of the day? What did this whole investigation cost?

TOOBIN: These investigations cost, I mean, you know...

S. O'BRIEN: A lot.

TOOBIN: ... the Starr investigation, you know, you added it all up, it was close to $100 million. S. O'BRIEN: Yeas.

TOOBIN: This will be less than that.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes. But maybe not by much.

TOOBIN: But not by a lot.

S. O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, thank you.

TOOBIN: OK.

S. O'BRIEN: Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, it's all relative.

Still to come, red tape keeps a family stuck in a hurricane damaged home. They had a trailer in the driveway but they didn't have the key. So who do we call? We called General Honore. And he got the D.D. key in there, you know what I mean?

That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: FEMA is going to reopen the bidding on more than a billion dollars worth of contracts. Those deals for relief and cleanup were made without competitive bidding. We had told you about that.

FEMA has also been criticized for the amount of time it's taking to get displaced families into trailer homes.

And as Randi Kaye reports from Ocean Springs, Mississippi, just getting the trailers to the people doesn't mean the job is necessarily done.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Gena Heffner needed a lifeline. Her home was flooded, carpeting and cabinets gone. The Heffners evacuated and since returning home, Gena and her husband have been sleeping on the floor. Gena has been calling FEMA every day.

GENA HEFFNER, HOME FLOODED: Many, many, many hours, tracing and retracing, and asking and begging and trying to prove my daughter's medical condition.

KAYE: Their home is too toxic for 2-year-old Hannah. She has a hole in her heart and needs daily medical care in a sanitary environment. Doctors suggested Hannah stay with friends. Her big brother is with his grandfather. But Gena has to start work again -- no job, no health insurance. She says that would be a death sentence for Hannah.

HEFFNER: Hi. I missed you. KAYE: Meanwhile, a perfectly clean FEMA trailer has been parked on the Heffners' property, locked, without any utilities, for 10 days. FEMA never gave the family the keys.

HEFFNER: And you say OK, I could have somewhere to live, but then you can't get in.

KAYE: Tired of waiting on FEMA, Gena e-mailed CNN.

I showed the e-mail to Lieutenant General Russel Honore, the man in charge of humanitarian efforts here.

(on camera): Her critically ill child is being passed back and forth between two families and a hospital.

GEN. RUSSEL HONORE: I need the name and the address.

KAYE: I have it all.

(voice-over): The general was anxious to help.

(on camera): If she could get into this trailer, they'd be fine.

RUSSEL: We're going to get her in the trailer. Just give me the damn numbers.

KAYE (voice-over): Armed with my Blackberry, General Honore worked the phones.

RUSSEL: Yes, it would be good if somebody would just go knock on her door and see how she's doing.

KAYE: FEMA did more than check on her. Within two hours, Gena had the keys and her trailer all its utilities.

HEFFNER: It's very, very small and that's fine. Everything, that's just fine. I just needed somewhere for my family to live.

KAYE: When FEMA first delivered the trailer, they left a note warning installation and hookup could take a few days, apologizing for any inconvenience. So why 10 days?

SID MELTON, FEMA: And it looks like there may have been some disconnects here and there, and that was one of the trailers that had rolled out there and didn't get followed up behind. And it was just a mistake that happened. And, you know, we're sorry that it did.

KAYE: The wait is over. The Heffners are moving in. They have a home, even if it is temporary.

(on camera): There is so much demand for these trailers here in Mississippi that it could take more than six months to fill all the current applications. The woman across the street told us she couldn't even get through on the phone line to even ask about ordering a trailer. Another guy told us he has a trailer, but couldn't get anyone to come out and hook up the utilities, so he had to do it himself.

Now, FEMA is delivering more than 300 of these trailers every day and the problem seems to be with the contractors hired by FEMA to hook up the utilities. They just can't keep up with the pace.

Randi Kaye, CNN, Ocean Springs, Mississippi.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: So why can't they deliver them with the keys, just out of curiosity?

Most FEMA trailers are going to large trailer parks, which are going to be called FEMA-villes -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, no they're not, are they?

M. O'BRIEN: I don't know. That's what they're saying.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, bloody.

M. O'BRIEN: FEMA villes.

S. O'BRIEN: Maybe they'll come up with another name.

M. O'BRIEN: I don't want to live in a FEMA ville.

How about you?

S. O'BRIEN: It sounds like a really bad idea.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, right.

S. O'BRIEN: They might want to rethink that one.

Still to come this morning, more on that New York City subway terror threat. City officials say it's specific, but is it credible? We'll take you live to Washington for a CNN "Security Watch."

That's coming up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Get the latest news every morning in your e-mail. Sign up for AMERICAN MORNING "Quick News" at cnn.com/am.

Still to come on the program, a happy homecoming for an Ohio Reservist unit hit especially hard in Iraq. Probably more of a bittersweet homecoming, in many respects. We'll talk to their commander about what it meant to finally come home, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.

Just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.

M. O'BRIEN: Coming up, we'll meet the commander of a Marine battalion just home from Iraq after seven months. A hero's welcome there in Ohio. What a terrible price his battalion paid, however. Dozens of fatalities this summer. A terrible roadside bombing.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, injuries, too.

M. O'BRIEN: Injuries. Ten percent of the battalion affected by this thing. And so they're coming back to the embrace of their loved ones and the sadness that there are comrades who didn't come with them. So we'll talk to the commander.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, really a tough reality there.

Also today, New York City police checking bags for bombs, checking strollers, too. They are acting on a specific threat against the New York City subway system. In D.C. the FBI is looking at the same intelligence saying well, there's no immediate threat. It's kind of contradictory.

The possibility of terrorism on the New York City subway is in our CNN "Security Watch" this morning.

That brings us right to Jeanne Meserve.

She's in our Washington bureau.

Hey, Jeanne -- good morning to you.

It sounds like they are completely contradicting each other. Either it's a specific threat, meaning it's credible, or it's not credible.

Which is it?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they both say that it's very specific, but they differ on the matter of credibility.

The clearest evidence of the disconnect is New York officials were bolstering security on mass transit. The Department of Homeland Security was saying it had no plans to raise the nation's terror threat level.

Federal officials were well aware of the threat information and say that they passed it on to state and local officials in recent days. But a U.S. official characterizes the intelligence as being of doubtful credibility, in part because of additional information collected overseas. And they note that the information was not corroborated. "Not viable," is how more than one official has described it.

Though U.S. officials seem surprised at New York's decision to go public with the information, a Department of Homeland Security official says the department respects the decision, characterizing it as something done out of an abundance of caution -- Soledad. S. O'BRIEN: You know, and that, I guess, kind of confuses me, as well. They are surprised by their decision to go public. Any indication of why, then, in New York they would go public with this information? It seems like they're sort of not on the same page.

MESERVE: Well, it may be a matter of where you are and what kind of judgments you make. As I mentioned last hour, in 2001 there were threats against California bridges, then California governor Gray Davis went public with it. He was criticized by some federal officials. He said, listen, I feel it's my obligation to keep my citizens safe, to keep them informed, so they can make intelligent judgments.

But, you know, some other people feel you shouldn't alarm the public unduly. You should wait until you have very specific and very credible and corroborated information. There are difference places or different people or different levels of government, reached the tipping point. And as I said, it may have something to do with geography.

S. O'BRIEN: Jeanne Meserve for us this morning. Jeanne, thanks.

MESERVE: You bet.

S. O'BRIEN: You want to stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

There are other stories making headlines this morning. Hey, Carol, good morning.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Soledad. Good morning to all of you.

Now in the news, the chief nuclear inspector Mohamed ElBaradei speaking out the first time since winning the Nobel Peace Prize. ElBaradei and the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency, the IAEA, were named the recipients of this year's prize earlier this morning. The Nobel Committee says it hope the honor will strengthen the United Nations and help stop the spread of nuclear weapons. ElBaradei shared that sentiment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, IAEA DIRECTOR GENERAL: I think my message to the Nobel Peace Committee, which I conveyed to Mr. Lunchtsdad (ph), who just called me, is to say thank you. Thank you for precisely giving prominence to the role of the agency. Thank you for supporting the calls, which is not very fashionable today, which is nuclear disarmament.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: ElBaradei will officially receive the prize at a ceremony in Oslo, Norway, on December 10th.

Now to Iraq. Six American marines have been killed in separate attacks in Iraq's Al Anbar Province. Military officials announcing the fatalities within the past hour. The marines died in two separate roadside bombings on Thursday.

Presidential adviser Karl Rove has agreed to testify again on the leak of a CIA operative's identity. But this time, he's expected to take the stand without protection against indictment. Any charges in connection with the investigation would have to come within weeks. The grand jury dissolves on October 28th.

Firefighters are making some progress against two wildfires that have destroyed more than 10,000 acres in Southern California. In San Diego County, fire officials are battling a 4,000 acre blaze in a rugged area along the U.S.-Mexican border. It's now about 30 percent contained. and the woodhouse fire outside of Los Angeles is now about 70 percent contained. Fire officials hope to have the 6,400 acre blaze fully under control by this weekend, but as you know, that all depends on the wind.

M. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Carol.

Hundreds of Ohio-based marines are enjoying waking up at home this morning. The Marine Corps Reservists of the 3rd Battalion and 25th Marines returned to a hero's welcome in Ohio on Thursday, yesterday. The battalion served seven months in Iraq. Eventful months they were. Forty-eight of their comrades died. At North Carolina's Camp LeJeune on Monday, Vice President Cheney acknowledged their sacrifice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The loss to our country is irreplaceable, and no one can take away the sorrow that has come to the families of the fallen. We will honor their memory forever, and we will honor their sacrifice by completing the mission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: Colonel Lionel Urquhart is the command of 3/25. He joins us from Cleveland. Colonel, good to have you with us. I want to pick up on the vice president's point there. That last point, we will honor their sacrifice by completing the mission. How close -- well, let me back up. What is the mission right now?

COL. LIONEL URQUHART, CMDR., 3RD BATTALION, 25TH MARINES: That's a good question, Miles. The mission that we had when we were over there was to disrupt the insurgency in the western part of the country. And we did that successfully, which allowed the Iraqi security forces to go ahead and stand up a credible force.

M. O'BRIEN: Do they have a credible force there?

URQUHART: They had a credible force to serve with us. In our part of the country, we had a battalion that helped us maintain security in the city of Heat (ph). Approximately 120,000 citizens of that city. And they did extremely well. The marines were impressed with their abilities, and the locals were -- felt comfortable enough with their abilities to start providing tips on where weapon caches were and where insurgents were.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, when you describe the mission as that, it's difficult to see the end game. Because insurgencies have a way of persisting for many, many years. What are your thoughts on that?

URQUHART: That's correct. Insurgencies will persist unless there's an alternative for the people of Iraq. And with a stable security force, we found that wherever we go in that province, they'd much prefer a security force that they can depend on to -- they want to live a normal life like the rest of us, Miles. They want to raise their family, they want to feel safe and secure. They're never going to feel that way with the insurgents running the country, they know that.

But right now, they're looking for an alternative and that alternative is a stable Iraqi government, a stable security force.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about how there could be a stable Iraqi government there. You've seen it up close, and you've seen the kinds of rivalries, which are so deep-rooted there, based on religious and ethnic differences. And it goes back, really, you know, thousands of years in some cases. How do you rectify that? How do you make a country that does just what you say out of something like that?

URQUHART: How do you make a country out of that, Miles? That's really -- unfortunately, that's not my expertise.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, it's not a marine job, is it?

URQUHART: But, you know, what we're talking here are two different things. Our job is to provide the stability so that people who are knowledgeable in that area can go ahead and assist the Iraqi government in establishing a credible base where the people can feel confident enough to trust that government and to support the government, and that's what you need for a government to succeed. If you don't have the support of the people, obviously, you can't make progress.

M. O'BRIEN: Your experience there, in a very personal and profound way, was anything but stable. You lost a lot of, you know, people who you love, people you went to war with.

URQUHART: That's correct.

M. O'BRIEN: As you walk away from it, as you look back on it, do you see anything but instability?

URQUHART: When we walked away from it, Miles, when we left the country, we saw stability just in a short time we were there. From the time that we arrived in March, the city of Heat had no stability. There was no government that functioned. There were insurgents that used that as a base. They ambushed convoys, they murdered people, they used it as a staging area to train terrorists to move further East towards Baghdad and Fallujah.

When we left, the people were out on the streets, the government was functioning, they had improved the water situation there for their people, they had improved the road conditions. The people didn't turn out for the January election in Al Anbar Province. In Heat, it was roughly 40 people voted in January. And we took polls. Now, obviously, October 15th will be the truth-teller. But we took polls and thousands indicated they are going to vote, and that is a significant change.

M. O'BRIEN: Colonel, final thought here. You're back in the embrace of your family, and there are many in your battalion -- many families who don't have that benefit. So, obviously, it's a very bittersweet homecoming. And I know you've had an opportunity to talk to a lot of these families. As you look them in the eye, what do you tell them? Do you tell them it was all worth it?

URQUHART: Miles, when I looked them in the eye, I didn't have to -- I didn't have to tell them that. When I looked them in the eye, they were already thanking me. Their sons joined the Marine Corps because of the tradition the Marine Corps in defending the rights of freedom that we have here in the United States.

And being away from the United States, coming back, the Marines and sailors of 3/25 appreciate those freedoms even more. And the families are proud of the service of their sons and husbands. And talking to them, they were thanking me. I didn't have to answer questions for them. They understood the risk. Their sons understood the risk. Their husbands understood the risk. But to us, the freedoms and the way of life in America are worth those risks.

M. O'BRIEN: Boy, some tough conversations there, I'm sure. Colonel Lionel Urquhart, semper fi, thank you for being us.

URQUHART: Thank you. Thanks, Miles. Semper fi, as well.

M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: 20 minutes before the hour.

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Let's take to the skies, shall we? Skilled pilots, high performance planes competing in Tucson, Arizona this weekend. It's the fourth annual Tucson Aerobatic Shootout. One little detail here. No room for people on these planes. Yes, they are remote controlled airplanes. The event is invitation only. Twenty of the world's best being called to show off their skills at maneuvering these fairly large-scaled small models. That's a model of the extra 300. I've had a little time in the real plane.

S. O'BRIEN: You know, it's hard to tell how big it is.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is. It is.

S. O'BRIEN: How big is it?

M. O'BRIEN: It's -- wingspan about five, six feet, OK?

S. O'BRIEN: Oh.

M. O'BRIEN: But no room for a real person.

S. O'BRIEN: So those are fake people they're putting inside? I mean, there's shots of people in there.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, they're just dummies, so to speak. Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: The smart guys are on the ground. And a lot of people would say, when it comes to aerobatics, the smart people are ones on the ground.

S. O'BRIEN: Are always on the ground.

M. O'BRIEN: Always on the ground. I would quibble with that. The fact is, with aviation fuel the way it is, I may be shifting over. Yes, all right.

S. O'BRIEN: With the dummies?

M. O'BRIEN: With the dummies, yes. Careful.

S. O'BRIEN: Exactly. Treading steadily.

Still to come this morning, big jobs report for September, is what I'm trying to say.

M. O'BRIEN: Who's the dummy here?

S. O'BRIEN: Just come out. Andy's going to break it down for us in "Minding Your Business." Watch out!

M. O'BRIEN: Plus our conversation with Fantasia. No singing, just a conversation. The "American Idol" champ will talk about her new book, her tough years as a teenage mom. She really is -- she absolutely mesmerized me, Soledad. Mesmerized me.

S. O'BRIEN: Girl can sing, I'll tell you that.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, forget the singing. She's got an amazing story. She really does.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, the book's good, too.

M. O'BRIEN: That, too. See you in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: It's the stuff that dreams are made of. A teenage high school dropout with a baby enters a talent contest and becomes a superstar.

(MUSIC)

M. O'BRIEN: That's the story of Fantasia Barrino, who shot to fame when she won a recording contract on "American Idol" in 2004. But Fantasia says, well, life is not a fairy tale. As a matter of fact, that's the title of her new autobiography. She joins us this morning to tell us about her life.

Fantasia Barrino, good to have you with us.

FANTASIA BARRINO, "AMERICAN IDOL" WINNER: Good to be here.

M. O'BRIEN: As I told our voters before, we are Fantasia household. So it's really -- my kids are very jealous that we're doing this right now. You -- your story is remarkable. High school dropout, teenage mom, unable to pay for diapers. You know, on and on it goes.

BARRINO: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: And one of the things you talk about -- you're very candid about being raped as a teenager. What -- that experience. A lot of people wouldn't be able to come back from it. How did you?

BARRINO: I had to, you know, for my child. For my mother. You know, I'm a mother. I have to -- I have to be strong and raise up a standard to say, you know, I'm going to protect my child and not allow her to go -- I want to sit her down and tell her, you know, the ways of the world and what can -- I want to be the best mommy I could be. Yes, I've been down. Yes, that happened to me, you know? It happens to a lot of women.

And I come out and talk about it because a lot of people hold it in. They hold it in and they never come out with it, they never say anything about it. And that is what kills them. You know, that haunts them all their life. They feel like, I can't go outside, I can't go here, I'm not beautiful, I don't want another man, I don't want this, I don't want that. Life is over for me. I don't -- bump it. I'm not even -- you know, life is over for me. And that's how I was starting to feel, but, until, you know...

M. O'BRIEN: How do you stop that, though?

BARRINO: You know, you got to want to change. You got to want different. You got to want to come out.

M. O'BRIEN: Another struggle that you've had to deal with is you know, through all of this and dropping out of high school, you missed a few important lessons, like learning how to read well.

BARRINO: Oh, yes.

M. O'BRIEN: To get to a certain age in this world and have a daughter who you expect to teach and mold, and you can't read her a story, what was that like?

BARRINO: Depressing. Very depressing. Every chance I could, I would go off and shed a tear because I would say, gosh, you know, I have a child. And she comes to me and says, read this, or, you know, I want to read this. And it's like, dang, I can't sit her down, I can't read it. You know? Something's got to give. You know, I can't preach to her, go to school, go to school, learn, learn, learn. And she says, well, you didn't do it. You can't even read, Mommy. You know, it's like, that, for me, was a tough situation until I came out with it.

You know, now, every chance I get, I'm picking up something, I'm reading it, you know? I wasn't a strong reader, but I'm getting stronger every day. Every day for me is a chance. And I'm learning and I want to get my degree so that I can sit down and tell a young lady, look, I dropped out, I did, but look what I'm doing. It ain't worth it. I'm going back. I'm going back.

M. O'BRIEN: If you're looking for a book on what it's like to go through the "American Idol" process, this isn't it. This is about much more. You have a much bigger story to tell, don't you?

BARRINO: It's -- you know, like I said, from the show, I used to say -- been through a lot of things. And people say, well, what actually happened? What have you been through? Because from what we see now, you got it going on. But it's always good to let people know, well, yes, I'm here now. But you got to understand what I came through, what I've been through to bring me to this point and to make me the strong woman that I am today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: Now, a little later in that, she sang for me.

S. O'BRIEN: She did?

M. O'BRIEN: But the publisher won't let us air it. It's some silly contract deal. But you know how -- see how small her voice was? She belted out "Summertime," she knocked me off that couch, practically.

S. O'BRIEN: She's great.

M. O'BRIEN: And I would do my interpretation, my imitation of that...

S. O'BRIEN: Please don't!

M. O'BRIEN: But -- yes, I had a feeling you'd say that.

S. O'BRIEN: Think of us, Miles. I'm begging..

M. O'BRIEN: In the interest, though, of the harmony among anchors, I will refrain from my "Summertime" rendition.

S. O'BRIEN: God, she's such -- she's such an inspiring -- I mean, her book is good. I read it.

M. O'BRIEN: So impressive. So impressive. S. O'BRIEN: And you're right, it's -- she's so much more than what everybody immediately thinks of, which, of course, is "American Idol." She's that and a whole lot more. That was a great interview.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, enjoyed it.

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, we're going to talk business news. That big jobs report for September, hot off the presses. Andy's going to crunch the numbers for us, as he minds your business, just ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: That new jobs report we've been talking about all morning is out. With a breakdown of the numbers, Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business." Good morning.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Let's get right to it, Soledad. 35,000 jobs net lost in the economy in the month of September. The first time we've lost jobs since May of 2003. How could it only be 35,000?

S. O'BRIEN: You're saying the estimates are going as high as 400,000?

SERWER: That's correct. But what we have to remember here, and what seems to have occurred, is there were job gains. Very strong job gains in other regions of the country that offset job losses in the Gulf Coast region. Gulf Coast, no doubt, many tens of thousands, over a hundred thousand people, have lost their jobs. There's no question about that.

But it shows the strength of the economy that in other parts of the nation, there were a lot of gains. We saw losses in trade, retail and leisure. That's definitely all about the Gulf Coast. It's also possible the numbers are not complete. It's only been a few weeks. So that's another issue.

Another positive, though, Soledad, is the numbers were revised for August and July. Seventy-seven additional -- 77,000, excuse me, additional jobs were created in those two months. So real positive stuff there. The unemployment rate did tick up from 4.9 percent to 5.1 percent, but that was expected.

Now, it's very interesting. Economists, people on Wall Street, are sorting through these numbers as we speak, trying to get a handle on them, what do they mean? There's two different scenarios right now that are being bandied about. One is....

S. O'BRIEN: One's the good news and one's the bad news.

SERWER: How can you guess?

S. O'BRIEN; I'm not an economist, but even I can figure it out.

SERWER: Right. But you can do the job. On the one hand, it's positive, so that would be good for the stock market, good for the economy. And the other hand, it's so strong that it's potentially inflationary, meaning interest rates might go up because of this. So, you know, this is something we're going to have to sort put. But I think the bottom line is, the economy is strong in other parts of the country. That offset job losses in the Gulf.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, that's some good news then.

SERWER: Yes, it is.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Andy, thank you.

SERWER: You're welcome.

S. O'BRIEN: Coming up in just a moment, more on that subway terror alert in New York City. How serious is the threat? A live report's ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Millions of New Yorkers on their way to work this morning, perhaps with a higher level of fear in the wake of that announcement of a terror plot which was aimed at the New York City subway system. We'll have live reports on what this all means, and we'll tell you how the federal government says it may not be that big a deal. That's coming up on AMERICAN MORNING -- Soledad?

S. O'BRIEN: Good morning. Welcome, everybody. We are reporting this morning from upstairs and downstairs. I'm up in the studio, but Miles is right downstairs where the commuters are just getting their commute underway.

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