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Some Republicans Saying President Made Wrong Choice by Selecting His Personal Lawyer; International Relief Aid Starting to Reach Earthquake Victims in Pakistan

Aired October 11, 2005 - 08:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: See that picture there? That's a view from our cafeteria. Isn't that nice.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, you took the girls there, didn't you?

S. O'BRIEN: I did, yesterday. Six bucks for lunch and the best view in the city there in that cafeteria.

M. O'BRIEN: I think the best value view.

(CROSSTALK)

S. O'BRIEN: Like upstairs as per se, which is like $600 a person.

M. O'BRIEN: And we'd like to invite each and every one of you to join us there. So if you're in New York, come give us a call, we'll take you up to the cafeteria.

S. O'BRIEN: Not going to happen.

Welcome back, everybody. Just about half past the hour.

Coming up, we're going to talk about the CIA leak investigation.

M. O'BRIEN: Judy Miller has testified, but now there's more to this story. She, of course, is "The New York Times" writer. Didn't do a piece on that CIA agent leak, but, nonetheless, served jailtime. She ultimately has testified. But now she is going to have a private meeting with the prosecutor involved in all this. Not sure what that is all about, but Jeff Toobin knows, and so we are going to check in with him and ask him what is next for her and that investigation.

Before we do that, let's check in with the birthday girl, Carol Costello, with the headlines.

Good morning, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Miles. Good morning to all of you.

Now in the news, insurgents in Iraq launching a series of attacks today, just days before a referendum vote on a new constitution. And interior ministry source says at least 30 people have been killed in a suicide bombing in Tal Afar. The region was the site of a major U.S.- led military operation last month.

Also in Baghdad, a suicide car bomber killed at least four people. An Iraqi army convoy was the apparent target.

President Bush continues his latest tour of hurricane-ravaged Louisiana. The president and First Lady arrived in New Orleans on Monday. Today, they'll take part in a Habitat for Humanity home- building project.

A snowstorm in eastern Colorado being blamed for at least three deaths. Up to 20 inches of snow fell in some parts of the state. The westbound chunk of Interstate 70 has been closed all the way to the Kansas line. A winter storm warning remains in effect for the southern part of the state.

In search of the Great Pumpkin. Well, Linus, look no more. This pumpkin won the annual weigh-off in California. It was grown by a retired firefighter Joel Holland. He's won the competition five years in a row. His giant gourd earned him more than $6,000. Holland says the winning entry could make about 600 pies, but he doesn't plan to make any pies. He plans to carve it into a giant jack-o-lantern.

M. O'BRIEN: He is out of his gourd!

COSTELLO: Please! Please!

M. O'BRIEN: I'm sorry. It's my annual gourd joke.

Thank you very much, Carol.

International relief aid is starting to reach earthquake victims in Pakistan today; 42,000 now killed in the region. As many as five million left homeless.

Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon.

Barbara, we've heard about those eight helicopters. That seems like a pittance compared to the size of this calamity.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, that, of course, is just the first bit of U.S. aid flowing into Pakistan. And of course, aid coming from all over the world in the face of this really terrible tragedy that is almost unfathomable.

U.S. aid is, of course, continuing to arrive in Pakistan. Some of the latest pictures show it being unloaded. It is coming from many places where the U.S. military has stockpiles.

But one of the things they're doing now is essentially setting up what they call an air bridge, getting ready for a long-term flow of supplies into Pakistan. And to that end, today, two C-17 aircraft are arriving in Islamabad, each of them carrying about 100,000 pounds of very essential equipment, cargo unloaders, forklifts, generators, all communications gear, all of the things that don't sound very exciting, but are essential to setting up this long-term air bridge, this long- term situation so that aid can continue to flow in, be unloaded and then distributed to where it's most needed.

Pakistani officials telling the U.S. and others they still, obviously, are in desperate need of blankets, dry food, tents, all kinds of humanitarian assistance. And the U.S. now setting up a military humanitarian coordination center in Islamabad, where U.S. military officials will work to try to make all of this happen to help them -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Now, Barbara, this quake was centered significantly east of where Osama Bin Laden is thought to be hiding. Having said that, this might very well have, well, loosened up some things and potentially might bring he and some of his followers out of hiding. Another thought, all those helicopters flying over the region, with the people on their way to relief, will they get a chance to peek and look for Osama perhaps?

STARR: Well, I suppose if a helicopter looked down and saw, you know, know, the anecdotive, a 6'6" tall man in a long, white robe, they might go down a little bit and have a further look.

But in actuality, what you say, Miles, is exactly right. When you look at the map, the epicenter of this earthquake was a good bit to the east. It was in a place referred to as the northwest frontier. This, of course, is closer to the Indian border, the disputed Kashmir area. It is long thought that Bin Laden and his top followers are far to the west, along the Afghan-Pakistan border. We've talked to military commanders who have looked at that border region. They say they don't really see a lot of destruction there. So it's not very clear whether there is any impact on Bin Laden at all.

If they ran into him, they'd sure be happy, but nobody is counting on it -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, Barbara, thank you very much -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: The latest now on the investigation into the leak of that CIA operative's identity. "New York Times" reporter Judith Miller is meeting privately today with special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who's leading the inquiry obviously.

Joining us this morning to talk about that is CNN's senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin.

Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

S. O'BRIEN: Why a private meeting? I mean, she's already testified. She's been called back in. She served 85 days in jail. Why a private meeting?

TOOBIN: Prosecutors use the grand jury for more formal purposes when they really want to get someone's story on the record, when they think they might not be telling the truth. If you simply have a follow-up meeting that is not going to be very long or very substantive, it's fairly common just to meet with a prosecutor and an FBI agent. And the impetus for this meeting apparently is that Judith Miller discovered more notes of an additional interview with Scooter Libby, Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, who is also a subject to this investigation. So it's not all that surprising that they wouldn't need the formality of a grand jury just to collect the information on this one meeting.

S. O'BRIEN: Has it surprised you that, though, that the investigation has gone on as long as it has.

TOOBIN: It's gone on a really long time. It's almost two years, and much of the investigation has been taken up with Patrick Fitzgerald, the prosecutor's fight with Judith Miller, and earlier Matt Cooper, to get their testimony in front of the grand jury. So many months were lost there. But since the grand jury expires October 28th, even though technically it could be extended, I think Fitzgerald will really want to wrap this up at the end of the month.

S. O'BRIEN: Because they could -- I mean, what are the downsides and the upsides to extending that October 28th deadline? I mean, the upside, obviously, you get more time and it's a long, and involved and complicated investigation. But what are the downsides?

TOOBIN: Well, the downsides are justice delayed is justice denied. Prosecutors take seriously the idea that they're obligated to get their investigations done in a reasonable amount of time. And two years for an investigation that is not like the Enron case. There are a very limited number of cast of characters here. It really should be over soon. And I think Fitzgerald, who is a long-term professional prosecutor knows that.

S. O'BRIEN: You've spoken about Karl Rove who's going to testify for the fourth time. The president has sort of said I have no comment, no one is supposed to be talking about this case. Does it surprise you that he's back for the fourth time?

TOOBIN: It's very unusual to testify that many times, but what apparently is happening here is as, say, Judy Miller comes forward with another piece of information, they're asking the subjects of their investigation to comment on it.

S. O'BRIEN: So not such a surprise.

TOOBIN: Well, but what is so unusual here is that the subjects are cooperating. In a normal grand jury investigation, the people who would be under investigation never in a million years would they testify on the grand jury; they'd take the fifth and not cooperate. Here, Fitzgerald has a tremendous advantage. The people he's looking at, he can either preview their defense, examine what they might say if they were actually prosecuted or possibly see if they commit perjury or obstruction of justice in the course of the investigation, thereby, exposing themselves to another level of prosecution.

So Rove and Libby, who are forced to cooperate because President Bush has said essentially they'll lose their job if they don't. Even though they're among the more powerful people in the country, they're actually in a weaker position than a normal defendant. S. O'BRIEN: What do you think, as a former prosecutor yourself, is the biggest thing going through the prosecutor's mind, Fitzgerald's mind? Do you think it's -- I've got to come up with indictments? Is it I just have to wrap this up before the deadline? What's his biggest pressure right now?

TOOBIN: You know, I think Fitzgerald is someone who is largely immune to political pressure. He is not a political person. He came up through the prosecutorial ranks. He is not someone who I think, you know, is worried about pleasing one side or another. I think he's nervous about how long this has taken. I think that's something sincere, committed prosecutors worry about.

But I don't think he is worried about saying, look, I don't have a case to prosecute or, if he's prosecuting one of the handful of most powerful people in the country. I mean, he's not going to bring a case unless he thinks he has it. But he's not going to bring one just to prove he wasn't wasting everyone's time.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, the deadline is October 28th. Fast approaching.

TOOBIN: Unless it's extended.

S. O'BRIEN: Unless it's extended. Then it's not.

TOOBIN: Then it's not.

S. O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, thanks. If it's extended, we'll be talking with you again.

TOOBIN: There you go.

S. O'BRIEN: Miles?

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Still to come, some last-minute tips. You know, there's actually a rush going on right now to file for bankruptcy.

S. O'BRIEN: As sad as it is, that's true.

M. O'BRIEN: Isn't that sad? Because the new rules go into effect, making it a lot harder. Andy -- not Andy. Andy's not in today. Gerri Willis is here to tell us a little bit about that, coming up.

S. O'BRIEN: Also, more on that conservative uproar over the Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers. We'll take a closer look at why some of the president's biggest supporters are turning on him now. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: The president's choice of Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court has shaken his political base to its conservative core. Some Republicans are saying the president made the wrong choice by selecting his personal lawyer.

AMERICAN MORNING'S Kelly Wallace joins us with more on this story. Good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Well, in presidential politics, I guess if your friends are upset, Soledad, you might...

S. O'BRIEN: It's a bad thing.

WALLACE: That's a bad thing. You might have little bit of a problem on your hands. And some conservatives are outraged. Some are saying after all they have done for this president and his reelection, he has really let them down. Some are saying it is something they won't soon forget.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL MAHER, HOST, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": So what do you think of your boyfriend George Bush now? I mean, seriously. I mean, this...

ANN COULTER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I'm not very happy.

WALLACE (voice-over): That's an understatement. The grumbling over Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers from conservatives is getting louder and louder.

COULTER: That is the one thing Bush keeps telling us about, or that, you know, he knows her heart. She's not qualified for the position. This isn't, like, you know, best employee of the month.

WALLACE: Ditto from conservative Robert Bork, the former Supreme Court nominee who lost in a bitterly fought battle for confirmation back in 1987.

ROBERT BORK, FMR. SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: It's a slap in the face to the conservatives that have been building a legal movement.

WALLACE: In a poll last week, 77 percent of conservatives gave new Chief Justice John Roberts an excellent or good rating. That number dropped almost 20 points to 58 percent for Harriet Miers.

PATRICK BUCHANAN, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: We were prepared to fight for a great judicial conservative to alter the direction of the Supreme Court, and we were given a blank slate.

WALLACE: It's not just concerns over Miers' legal qualifications -- the White House lawyer has never been a judge -- but ironically, questions about where the evangelical Christian convert stands on social issues have outraged some of the president's most loyal supporters, conservatives who are critical to his reelection.

A prominent anti-abortion rights activist, Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family, tried to put some doubts to rest, publicly backing Miers but refusing to reveal exactly what he learned about her during conversations with White House adviser Karl Rove.

DR. JAMES DOBSON, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: If I have made a mistake here I will never forget it. The blood of those babies that will die will be on my hands to some degree.

WALLACE: Still, Dobson's endorsement is not enough for some conservatives, already disappointed with the president's efforts to curb illegal immigration and control government spending.

BORK: I think it is the final straw. People -- the conservative movement was banking -- they said at least he's going to choose a judge like Scalia and Thomas. That's what he said he would do. There's no evidence that this a judge like Scalia or Thomas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And the president did an interview this morning. And he asked -- he was if he is surprised by the sharp criticism coming from some conservatives. Well, he said that he's not surprised. He expected some criticism, Soledad, by picking someone outside what he called the judicial monestary, someone who's never served on the judiciary before. But he says once people get to know her, know her qualifications, he's confident she will be confirmed.

O'BRIEN: It's going to be hard to get to know her and know her qualifications, because a lot of what she can't talk about, in any kind of Senate hearing, is going to be information that's private. She won't be able to reveal it. So could this nomination be yanked? I mean if -- as you started, your friends don't like who you picked, you run a real problem.

WALLACE: You know, it's interesting. It depends on whom you ask. And you listen to a lot of the -- some of those conservatives who are angry, who have been talking. Some say they think the conservative -- the criticism is so sharp; coming, again, from the president's base, the president's own friends. That, ultimately, they think this nomination will be pulled and that Harriet Miers will not go forward.

Others believe, no, this president, as we know, is loyal. You heard him in an interview earlier today. He is sticking by her. He thinks she will be confirmed. And so, again, even people close to Harriet Miers thinks it is very unlikely that she would go ahead and voluntarily withdraw her nomination.

(CROSSTALK)

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Kelly, thanks.

Miles?

M. O'BRIEN: Coming up, we're "Minding Your Business." Gerri Willis will join us and she'll have some tips, for those of you on the financial ropes. The issue is bankruptcy. In about a week's time, it it's going to get a lot harder to file for personal bankruptcy. She'll tell us -- Gerri, that is -- what to do if you think you might need to file for bankruptcy. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: All right, October 17th is a big day if you're thinking about filing for bankruptcy. Truth be told, if you're thinking about it, you might want to do it before then. Gerri Willis is here to explain how things are changing.

GERRI WILLIS, CNN FINANCE CORRESPONDENT: Changing and making it harder for people to file for bankruptcy. That's the reality here. That fresh start bankruptcy where all of your debts are forgiven, much more difficult for people to get now.

But I've got some ideas if you're trying to beat that deadline, Miles. A number one, find the skeleton form. Let me show you this. Two pages.

M. O'BRIEN: Two pages. You call this a skeleton form?

WILLIS: If you're an attorney, you call it a voluntary position, but, you know, the shortcut.

M. O'BRIEN: In other words, get this thing in and fill out the two-page form and do it now, right?

WILLIS: You can find this on uscourts.gov. It's, you know, the second page is just signatures. It's that easy. It gets you locked into filing all the documents, which is going to take you some time, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: So if that -- if you do that, you're grandfathered in on the old rules, correct?

WILLIS: No.

M. O'BRIEN: You're not.

WILLIS: No, you are not grandfathered in.

M. O'BRIEN: It's just the beginning.

WILLIS: The problem with the Monday deadline is that it's going to be very difficult for people to meet when they have to file all the forms. Because let me tell you, the other things you have to file when you put in the complete documentation include everything about your financial life, including the debts you owe, all your creditors, their names, their addresses, your credit cards, all the data about them. How much money you make, where you live.

All of these details, every financial detail of your life, you'll have to have. And if you do that all at one time, it's going to take more than a few days to get together.

M. O'BRIEN: Right. So you might not have enough time to do all that?

WILLIS: So the short cut, get the skeleton form, and you'll be able to file, get it in under the wire, meet the deadline.

M. O'BRIEN: OK. Now, as time goes on, this is going to become a complicated thing. It's going to cost more, as a matter of fact, because the lawyers are going to be more involved, right?

WILLIS: That's right. And the people who are really making out on this are the bankruptcy attorneys. Their fees have gone up as many as 13,000 people filing each and every day.

I want to tell people something very important about filing bankruptcy right now. In many states, you could stand to lose your house if you use a fresh start bankruptcy.

M. O'BRIEN: Really? But that always was sacrosanct, wasn't it? You could keep your house?

WILLIS: Not so much, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Really?

WILLIS: In some states, as we know -- a lot of corporate chieftains moved to Florida because you could keep your house there, for example. But it's critical for you to understand the details in your individual state. They're different state-by-state-by-state.

M. O'BRIEN: Protect the house. That is number one.

WILLIS: Protect the house. You got to do it.

And make sure that you understand there's a double whammy here for hurricane victims. You had your house is blown away. Now, you've got to make sure you get that bankruptcy filing in on time.

And, of course, Miles, a little bit of advice here if you can avoid bankruptcy at all, do it. Because it affects your credit for seven years. And it's really not just getting a new loan, it's if you look for a job, it will affect you, as well, because employers use credit histories, too.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, we're talking about if people are up against the ropes. If you're in the hurricane region, though, aren't they giving you a little grace period?

WILLIS: Well, you know, they're giving -- you know, you don't have to go through the training and a few things, but it's still very difficult. And go get some expert advice.

M. O'BRIEN: Gerri Willis, thank you very much -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, we're going to meet a 9- year-old boy who swam from Alcatraz to San Francisco and raised thousands of dollars for hurricane victims. We'll chat with him live, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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