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Nancy Grace

26-Year-Old Woman Vanishes in Georgia; Susan Polk Goes on Trial

Aired October 11, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to Georgia. What are the clues to solving a new missing person case, 26-year-old Sueann Ray vanishes from a local shopping center. Tonight, the reward climbs to over $100,000. Plus, we go live to Seattle. Baby-sitters are hired by parents every day to love the baby, take care of the baby, not kill the baby! Did a 13-year-old baby-sitter shake and beat a baby girl to death? And then: A 15-year-old girl falls in love and marries her 42-year-old psychologist, who then becomes her husband, who then becomes her murder victim, say California prosecutors.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, live to a Seattle courthouse, a 13-year-old baby-sitter on trial for shaking a 19-month-old baby girl to death. Confession? Thrown out by the judge. Tonight: Does the state still have a case?

And a California woman begins therapy at age 15, then begins a sex relationship with her 42-year-old therapist, who then becomes her murder victim, say California prosecutors.

But first, tonight, live to Georgia. An intense search for this beautiful 26-year-old mother, Sueann Ray, apparently missing from a local mall parking lot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDY CHASM, SUEANN RAY`S SISTER: She`s my only sister, and somebody took her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: First, let`s go straight out to Atlanta, "Journal- Constitution" reporter Don Plummer. Don, what`s the latest?

DON PLUMMER, "ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": Nancy, this is day 46 for this family since the daughter and sister has been missing. And the family has done everything they possibly can. Police have been searching for this woman. They have looked for her. They have passed out fliers. There has been actually very little activity until last week, when $100,000 was added to the reward. That has brought people forward, according to police. Today, when I talked to them, they said they have been having people come forward every day, and they say the pace of the investigation is speeding up.

GRACE: When you say the pace is speeding up, in what way, Don? Do we have a suspect?

PLUMMER: They won`t name a suspect. They have not had a named suspect or a person of interest up to this point. The last person to see Sueann Ray was her estranged husband, but the police specifically say that he is not a suspect, at this point.

GRACE: Let me go to Detective Sergeant Dan King joining us. He`s with the Woodstock Police Department. Have you searched her home?

DET. SGT. DAN KING, WOODSTOCK POLICE DEPARTMENT: We have searched the apartment that she was currently living in.

GRACE: And was she living with her daughter?

KING: She was.

GRACE: Where was she, at the time she was last seen, Detective?

KING: She was last seen in her ex-husband`s shop in his back yard.

GRACE: His shop is in his back yard, at his residence?

KING: That`s correct.

GRACE: She last seen there when?

KING: That would be Friday, August 26.

GRACE: August 20-what?

KING: The 26th.

GRACE: The 26th. And his name is?

KING: His name is Quentin (ph) Ray.

GRACE: Has he cooperated with you?

KING: He has talked to us on several different occasions and given us his statement.

GRACE: He gave you a statement. Has he taken a polygraph?

KING: No, he has not.

GRACE: Quentin Ray not a suspect, as of tonight. So the last time she was seen, she was there at his garage. Why was she there?

KING: She was there, from statements that we`ve gotten from different people, to get her vehicle fixed.

GRACE: Was it an oil change?

KING: We`ve heard different things -- oil change. We`ve heard the radiator coolant to be changed.

GRACE: OK. You know, it`s my -- were they separated? Were they divorced? Was it formal?

KING: They were separated. I don`t believe it was formal.

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you something, Detective. Had there ever been any domestic violence incidents during the marriage?

KING: The police had been called out a few times and some reports had been made, but it doesn`t rise to the level of domestic violence.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Calls were made to the police - - 911 calls?

KING: I don`t know if they were 911 calls or if they were calls directly to the precinct.

GRACE: Well, what were the nature of the calls?

KING: One of them was a vehicle that they had owned together that her husband had taken off the property.

GRACE: So they were having an argument about a car.

KING: Correct.

GRACE: What were the others about?

KING: The others were about an incident that occurred, apparently, the last place they lived, up in the north end of the county. And I don`t have all the details in front of me right now.

GRACE: Are all of these phone calls -- I understand that there are multiple phone calls to local police. Is it always her calling the police?

KING: I don`t have any 911 calls.

GRACE: OK. OK. Calls to local police, then, I should say, as opposed to 911.

Let`s go out to Sueann Ray`s sister. Rosie (ph), if you could -- there you go. Keep showing me this picture of Sueann Ray.

With me is Sandy Chasm. Sandy, thank you for being with us.

CHASM: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Tell me about this relationship between your sister and Quentin Ray.

CHASM: Well, they`ve been married seven years and separated for about six months. And they passed four months is when things got real rocky between them.

GRACE: All these phone calls to the local police -- what were the nature of those phone calls?

CHASM: They were actually called to 911.

GRACE: They were calls to 911? Thank you for clarifying that. What were they about?

CHASM: Well, I know I have actually called once to 911.

GRACE: About?

CHASM: Quentin was pushing my sister.

GRACE: Detective, did you know that?

CHASM: I did. I was aware of that.

GRACE: OK. You told me this was -- none of these calls were domestic.

KING: Well, I was aware of the call to 911. I haven`t yet had my hands on that tape yet to listen to it. We`re still...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK. Didn`t you just tell me they were not 911 calls?

KING: Pardon me?

GRACE: Didn`t you just tell me they were not 911 calls?

KING: I said I didn`t have any calls to 911. We`re still investigating it and trying to get the tapes.

GRACE: OK. Well -- OK, back to the sister. Sandy -- ma`am, is it Casm or Chasm?

CHASM: Chasm.

GRACE: Thank you. Sandy Chasm, the 911 call that you personally made when he was pushing her -- when was that?

CHASM: That was the end of June.

GRACE: In the end of June, and she went missing August 26. To Don Plummer, reporter with "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution." Don, the day that she went missing, did she have any type of altercation or argument with her husband that day?

PLUMMER: There is a report that they had argued about him picking up their daughter, their 6-year-old daughter, Charity (ph), without her knowledge. However, the police haven`t confirmed that for me. There are also reports that they had had prior altercations of various kinds. But again, I`m not getting that from the police, I`m getting it from other sources.

GRACE: Well, are your other sources credible?

PLUMMER: I believe they are. They`re people who have direct knowledge about the case.

GRACE: What happened to the little girl? Did you say she was 6?

PLUMMER: Yes. She is 6 years old. And that evening, Sueann was planning to enroll her in cheerleading at the Woodstock Elementary School, and in fact, had talked to another mother and made an appointment at 7:00 o`clock to do so. She never showed up for that appointment, and that`s one of the things that eventually made people suspicious about her disappearance.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: She was up getting her car worked on by her husband at his automobile shop in Jasper (ph). That was the last place that she was seen.

CHASM: The van was found at the Wal-Mart parking lot, back indeed perfectly straight, and she can`t back anything up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, let me go back to Detective Sergeant Dan King with the Woodstock Police Department. She had this appointment at 7:00 o`clock. She never made it. What time was Sueann at her husband`s house?

KING: We don`t have an exact time. That`s one of the things we`re trying to do now, is get a timeframe.

GRACE: OK, it`s my understanding she made a cell phone call from his location while she was waiting on him to get there for the oil change, or whatever it was. Is that correct?

KING: I really don`t want to get into the facts of the case. I don`t want to put out some of the facts that we have.

GRACE: OK. Let me go to Sandy Chasm. Did she make a cell phone call while she was there?

CHASM: I believe so, yes.

GRACE: To a friend?

CHASM: Yes.

GRACE: Do we know the time of the call?

CHASM: I`m going to say around 6:00.

GRACE: OK. So Don Plummer, she`s alive at 6:00 o`clock, on the phone, waiting at his house. At 7:00 o`clock, she miss as meeting, correct?

PLUMMER: That`s my understanding, yes.

GRACE: Don, where was her minivan found?

PLUMMER: Her minivan was found about a dozen miles away, south, at a parking lot of a Wal-Mart. It was backed into a space about as far away from the Wal-Mart store as you can get in that parking lot. It was found two days -- three days later. I`m sorry.

GRACE: Hold on. Let me back up. It was found -- hold on. I`m showing a map, Don. Let me take a look at this.

PLUMMER: Right.

GRACE: Woodstock, Sueann`s home, Canton Wal-Mart. You said it`s about 15 miles, correct?

PLUMMER: It`s 12 to 15, I believe, from Jasper, which is where her husband`s home is.

GRACE: And Don, also, you said the car was parked as far away from Wal-Mart as possible?

PLUMMER: Well, it was on the other side of the parking lot, and it was backed in on an outside space.

GRACE: OK. Sandy Chasm, your sister -- what do you have to say about her backing in, like she`s coming out of the bat cave?

CHASM: She doesn`t do it. She cannot back in to save her life.

GRACE: You know, it`s funny, people`s driving habits. I love to back in, so I can always scratch off when I leave. But a lot of people would never think to park that way. Had you ever seen her reverse into a parking spot?

CHASM: No, never.

GRACE: And Detective King, I don`t know if you can comment on this, but what was the condition of the inside of the minivan?

KING: I really don`t want to get into anything that...

GRACE: OK. I understand that. I know you don`t want to jeopardize the case.

KING: Right.

GRACE: Don Plummer, do we know about the inside of the minivan?

PLUMMER: Well, we were told that the inside was clean. There was no damage to the vehicle. There didn`t appear to be any signs of a struggle or injury inside the vehicle.

GRACE: Any fingerprints? Even hers?

PLUMMER: That I don`t know. I only know that the police have said that they have not been able to develop any suspects yet.

GRACE: Let`s go out now to a very special guest. Joining us, Sueann Ray`s father, Danny Jenkins, is with us. Sir, thank you for being with us.

DANNY JENKINS, SUEANN RAY`S FATHER: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to again stress that this Quentin Ray, her husband, is not an official suspect. Danny, so far, do you find it very difficult to believe that all this time passed and nobody has heard from her?

JENKINS: It`s impossible. If she was able to call, she would have called.

GRACE: When did you first realize she was actually missing?

JENKINS: I was in a sales meeting Monday morning the 29th at 9:00 o`clock. Sandy called me and she says, Dad, have you heard from Sueann? And I said no. I got up, and I went and filed a police report immediately because I knew.

GRACE: You knew what?

JENKINS: I knew something was wrong.

GRACE: Has she ever gone that long without telling anybody?

JENKINS: No, never. I don`t think I`ve ever went two days without talking to her.

GRACE: You know, I got to tell you something. That is my worst nightmare, to get a phone call. And you know it. You know it when you get it. I knew when I got that phone call. I knew immediately.

What went through your mind, Mr. Jenkins, when you got that call?

JENKINS: I had probably the most emptiest feeling I`ve ever had in my life because I knew my little girl was gone and I will never get to hug her neck. I`ll never get to kiss her. It`s the worst feeling that any dad, any parent, can ever have.

GRACE: We`re going to be right back. We are trying to find the whereabouts or anything we can find out about Sueann Ray. She`s just 26 years old. She`s got a little girl waiting on her mommy to come home. With us tonight, her family, a reporter from "The Atlanta Journal- Constitution," our panel of lawyers and Detective Sergeant Dan King. Reminder: That reward is now up to over $100,000 for the whereabouts of Sueann Ray.

Quickly, tonight`s "Case Alert." Breaking news. Remember that suitcase murder case we told you about, a body washing up in three separate suitcases? Well, tonight, a source tells us a New Jersey grand jury is set to indict Melanie McGuire (ph) on murder one. Thirty-nine-year-old William McGuire`s body, dismembered, packed into three separate suitcases and dumped into the ocean. McGuire pleads not guilty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER HARVEY, NEW JERSEY ATTORNEY GENERAL: On May the 5, 11, 16 of 2004, on each of those dates, suitcases -- a suitcase washed up on the shores of Virginia Beach, Virginia, just near the Chesapeake Bay bridge and tunnel. The suitcases contained body parts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sueann Ray`s family and friends have spent their days posting thousands of fliers on store windows and on utility poles in Pickens and Cherokee County. Sueann has been missing since August 26.

CHASM: You know, she`s my only sister, and somebody took her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandy Chasm believes her sister was abducted, and Woodstock police sergeant Dan King tells us they, too, suspect foul play.

KING: Based on the fact that it`s out of character for Sueann Ray to disappear for any length of time, not have any contact with her family...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Can you help us, help police find Sueann Ray, just 26 years old, a little girl waiting on her mom to get home?

I want to go straight out to Detective Sergeant Dan King with the Woodstock Police Department. Detective, is it true that she had just gotten a little dog and that someone wrapped the dog`s chain around its neck and killed it and left it there in the doghouse for her to find about a month before she went missing?

KING: We had heard that from different people, but we have not been able to confirm that yet.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that indicate to you that there is someone who has an emotional involvement in this case, that is trying to scare her or terrorize her in some way?

KING: I don`t know. Normally, I would say yes, but I don`t have enough information on that incident to even comment, if that...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK. Well, let`s see what -- if we can find out about it. Sandy Chasm, Sueann Ray`s sister, is with us. Did she just buy a little puppy?

CHASM: Yes.

GRACE: And where`s the puppy now?

CHASM: The puppy is buried.

GRACE: OK. What happened to it and when?

CHASM: I don`t know exactly what happened to it, but I was the one that actually found the dog, and the chain was wrapped around its neck and she was just laying in her doghouse like she was asleep.

GRACE: I want to go back out to Don Plummer, the reporter with "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution." He`s been on the case from the very beginning. What is being done to find Sueann Ray?

PLUMMER: Well, I believe everything is being done by the family that they possibly can. They`ve put up a Web site. They`ve distributed over 50,000 fliers. They`ve searched themselves. They`ve taken extraordinary measures to try to find their family member.

I am not certain what steps the police have taken, beyond having opened a case. I know that they have interviewed certain people. They`ve interviewed prior acquaintances of Sueann Ray`s. They`ve interviewed her family. I know they`ve interviewed her estranged husband. I`m not certain beyond that because, as we`ve heard this evening, they will not comment on the specifics of their case, quite rightly, so that they don`t give up something. But we also don`t know exactly where to go. I mean, this is...

GRACE: OK. Let me go back out to Detective Sergeant Dan King. Have you searched Quentin Ray`s home?

KING: We have.

GRACE: You have? Was that yes or no?

KING: Yes, ma`am, we have.

GRACE: Was that pursuant to a warrant, or did he consent?

KING: That was pursuant to a warrant.

GRACE: And let me go quickly back to Danny Jenkins, Sueann Ray`s father. You told me that you had never gone over two days without talking to your girl. Right?

JENKINS: That`s right. That`s right. Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: So this is highly unusual.

JENKINS: Oh, it`s -- it`s so unusual.

GRACE: Sir, do you know if her cell phone has been found?

JENKINS: No, I don`t -- I don`t -- that`s -- I don`t know. I don`t know if it has or not.

GRACE: Detective King, was there any activity on her cell phone after 7:00 PM, when she had that appointment?

KING: Again, I don`t want to comment on the facts of the investigation (INAUDIBLE) the case.

GRACE: OK, everybody. We`ll all be right back.

To "Trial Tracking." The two grandmothers of 4-year-old Valery Lozada, the little girl found on a New York City street, met today to decide Valery`s fate. Valery`s mother, Monica Lozada, found dead last week in Pennsylvania in a landfill. Her boyfriend, Cesar Ascarrunz, accused of murder. Now both of Valery`s grandmothers want custody. Her paternal grandmother seeks custody on behalf of Valery`s biological father, who is currently in a Bolivian jail on drug charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARINA BERNAL, GODDAUGHTER OF PATERNAL GRANDMOTHER: Dad wants her to stay, you know, with grandmother or a family member. And you know, there`s no dispute. There`s -- you know, the -- you know, the grandmothers are friends, and it`s a -- you know, a family thing, and they just, you know, want the best for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN POLK, ACCUSED OF KILLING HUSBAND: My recollection is that I stabbed him five or six times. I was on my back the entire time. He was aggressing the entire time. He was biting my hand and wrestling for the knife, and I thought I was going to die. So I did -- it was horrible, but I did what I had to do to survive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are switching gears to a California courtroom. I want to go straight out to KTVU reporter Gasia Mikaelian. You`ve got to help me with that! Tell me...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Am I close enough?

GASIA MIKAELIAN, KTVU: You know, you`re awfully close, Nancy. Gasia Mikaelian.

GRACE: Tell me exactly what`s happening in the courtroom today. This is a case that has stunned many court watchers. This girl -- she was a girl then -- started seeing a psychologist at age 15. They then became lovers. He then became her husband, and now he`s her murder victim, according to California prosecutors. What happened in court?

MIKAELIAN: Well, what`s really in question here is what happened between the time the two became doctor/patient, then lovers, then husband and wife, up until November of 2002, when he died in the family`s pool house. There`s a lot of time in between, and what the prosecutors and defense attorneys disagree on is exactly what led to the killing.

In this case, of course, as always, prosecution went first, outlined their case, tried to paint Susan as a cold-blooded murderer. They said that she planned the killing of her husband, Felix, and that it was done so over the issue of money. The two -- no secret here -- in the middle of a nasty divorce.

She went to talk to him in the family`s pool house just outside of the main complex one evening. Things got ugly somehow, and the two had a confrontation. Again, the prosecution will have you believe that she killed him in cold-blooded murder. The defense, however, says that Susan, in this case, suffered years and years of abuse at the hands of her husband -- the two, again, meeting when she was 15 years old, extremely impressionable, and that the relationship grew from there and that he was very intimidating, very abusive.

Today, while the defense was doing their opening statement, they showed photographs of what they said was abuse inflicted upon Susan at the hands of Felix and said what happened that night was simply Susan protecting her own life by taking that of her husband.

GRACE: Gasia, tell me, what were the defensive wounds on her body, if any.

MIKAELIAN: Well, the prosecutors say that she really didn`t have many defensive wounds at all. They point to the autopsy conducted on her husband, Felix, that said he had 27 stab wounds in all, including...

GRACE: Whew!

MIKAELIAN: ... stab wounds to his stomach...

GRACE: Ouch!

MIKAELIAN: ... to his chest, and also to that of the hands and feet, as you`ll see when someone is fighting someone off. Again, they say Susan had very few defensive wounds at all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And this is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Bitter cold and rain are hindering efforts to get much-needed relief to the victims of the massive South Asian earthquake. And the severe cold is making things even worse for the millions left homeless by the quake who are now living in tents or even in the open air.

Attorneys for recently indicted Congressman Tom DeLay have subpoenaed the Texas prosecutor behind the case. And they hope to show he behaved improperly by having contact with several grand jury members. DeLay stepped aside as House majority leader because of the indictment. Ronnie Earle denies any political motives.

The man seen on videotape being beaten by several New Orleans police officers says he doesn`t think the incident was racially motivated. But the 64-year-old retired school teacher denies police claims that he`d been drinking.

And for a third time in a month, parts of L.A. are without power. The lights went out on about 1,000 customers this morning. Some had electricity by noon. But hundreds are still in the dark.

That is the news for now. Thanks for joining us. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back for more of NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN POLK, ACCUSED OF KILLING HUSBAND: I was lying there. And just for this instant, I thought of myself as that 15-year-old girl. And I thought, "No, I`m not going to die here. I`m going to live."

And I kicked him as hard as I could with the heel of my foot in his groin. And at the very same time, I reached up and his hand just loosened on the knife. And it was a very small knife. And I just took it out of his hand. And I said, "Stop. I have the knife." And he wouldn`t stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. First, she was his patient. He was a psychologist. Then she became his lover, although he was married with children, then his wife. Now he has become her murder victim, according to California prosecutors.

The defense says it was all about self-defense. Let`s go straight out to the defense attorney joining us tonight. You know him well, Daniel Horowitz, defense attorney out of the California jurisdiction.

Welcome, Daniel. Daniel, your girl was in Montana, correct? She had moved out of the home?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She was moving to Montana, Nancy. She actually had bid on a condominium, and she was looking forward to moving there and getting on with her life, getting out of an abusive relationship.

GRACE: Well, hold on. I just asked you, was she in Montana?

HOROWITZ: Well, she was and then she returned to finish up the divorce proceeding, and then she was planning to move out there again.

GRACE: So they were not yet divorced?

HOROWITZ: Correct.

GRACE: OK. How much money would she have made as a divorcee as opposed to a widow? I mean, I`m looking at their digs. And they`re pretty sweet.

HOROWITZ: Exactly, Nancy. She would have made a lot more money had he been alive. Spousal support is the best example.

GRACE: But the judge just cut her spousal support. I mean, she just got a smashing blow. The judge not only gave her husband sole custody of their remaining teenager -- they have three boys -- but they cut her alimony and all of the monthly payments, right?

HOROWITZ: No, not really. Yes and no, Nancy. There are two myths that I`d like to correct. Myth one -- let me start with the myth one, which is the...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. I got to clear one thing up.

Rosie, is that their home in California -- is that their pool, Rosie? OK.

Go ahead.

HOROWITZ: OK. Myth number one: There were never 26 stab wounds. Their own prosecution medical examiner said there was 26 injuries, but only five significant stab wounds. That makes a big difference in analyzing things. But this myth of 26 stab wounds made it very difficult for us to get witnesses to come forward because they wrote her off as a rage killer.

Now, as for the divorce, Nancy, it was a temporary order. It was ex- party. She was not even present. And the judge ordered an independent financial examination of Felix Polk`s earning capacity and assets. When that came in, the numbers would have been readjusted and she would have gotten back pay, essentially.

GRACE: Dan? Dan?

HOROWITZ: And also, a corrected number. Yes?

GRACE: You know what? I`m going to go to the KTVU reporter on this one, Gasia.

Could you tell me, had her monthly payments just been slashed?

MIKAELIAN: You know what? We don`t have the exact amount of the monthly payments. All that we`ve been told so far in the courtroom here is that it was, indeed, over money. Just how much, we don`t know just yet.

GRACE: Daniel, tell me the truth: What had the payments been slashed to?

HOROWITZ: The truth is -- well, they`d been slashed, but not really, Nancy. Yes, the number had been cut. But she was not cut back. Remember, the payments she was getting were for the house, for child support, and spousal support. Now what was temporarily cut...

GRACE: Hold on. Wait, wait, Daniel. Hold on.

Ellie?

HOROWITZ: See, you`re positing it -- go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, I`m just trying to find out what the slash was. What was it, Ellie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the information we have says her support payments were cut from $6,500 a month to between $1,500 to $1,700 a month.

GRACE: From $5,500 a month...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: $6,500.

GRACE: ... $6,500 a month -- thank you, Ellie -- to $1,700 a month. All right. When did that happen, Daniel?

HOROWITZ: That happened when she was in Montana just a few weeks before this incident. So the prosecution theory is just what you`re setting forth. She was angry at getting her money cut.

But, Nancy, she wasn`t angry. We have her diary. We have her writings. She knew that the money was going to be put back up.

You know, Nancy, that ex-party proceedings where there are not two sides never end up being the final word. There`s always two sides to an argument.

GRACE: OK. I understand that. I understand.

Let me just get a few facts, Daniel, before you start your closing statement, OK?

HOROWITZ: You got it.

GRACE: She was in Montana. How did she get back to California, plane, train, automobile?

HOROWITZ: Truck. She drove her truck.

GRACE: She drove a truck. And why did she go back to the home?

HOROWITZ: She went back to the home because, while she was gone bidding on this condominium, she was planning to come home anyway. Did she come home early...

GRACE: For what? For what? That`s my question. For what?

HOROWITZ: Oh, to move, to get her belongings, to move and go to Montana. She would close on the condo. When it closed, she was getting ready to move out and move there.

But she did come home early, which I think is what you`re getting at, because the child support was cut and the custody was changed while she was away. However, don`t think for a minute that she didn`t believe that she would get it fixed.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK. You`ve made that point about 50 times. I get it.

HOROWITZ: Good.

GRACE: She got her payments slashed by more than half. But she was going to try to...

HOROWITZ: Temporarily.

GRACE: Yes, I heard you the first 10 times. But she was going to try to get that money back.

To Gasia with KTVU, Gasia, was there a kitchen in this guest cottage?

MIKAELIAN: I was inside this afternoon. Her son, Eli, allowed us inside before the jury went in. If you could call it a kitchen, it`s a very, very small kitchen. It was about the size of what we would consider a decent sized bathroom.

GRACE: OK. Daniel Horowitz, where did the knife come from?

HOROWITZ: We don`t know where the knife came from, Nancy. We do know that he ate after he came home. You would not eat in that little kitchen. You would more likely eat in the larger room where this took place.

GRACE: OK.

OK, to Lisa Wayne, if that knife that she says he pulled on her came from the house, she`s in a lot of trouble. Why? Because the knife had to be brought from the house out to the cottage.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, it might be problematic. But, you know, I think what we`re missing here, to me, a big fact, is that the law of self-defense applies equally to whether you`re a man or a woman.

And it seems to me in this case that the facts are so apparent that this is a guy who had an emotionally overreaching relationship with a child at 15. He`s her doctor, takes advantage of this woman. And, you know, you need to be in the woman`s side on this...

GRACE: They had been married over 20 years. I`m on the side of justice.

WAYNE: But, you know, that doesn`t mean she wasn`t emotionally abused, Nancy.

GRACE: Twenty-seven stab wounds?

WAYNE: And those are the kinds of women -- you know what? That means -- the law of self-defense says, if someone is an initial aggressor, you have a right to stab them if you believe that you are in fear of bodily injury or death. It doesn`t say how many times.

It means you have a right to get that person off of you. And that`s what self-defense is. And it seems it`s very clear this was a self-defense case. And women have that right, just as well as men do in this country.

GRACE: Gasia, what were the defensive wounds on her body?

MIKAELIAN: Again, prosecutors this morning said there were not that many defensive wounds to be seen. But when it comes to the question of self-defense -- something else that was brought up in the courtroom today - - the fact that she didn`t tell anybody what happened immediately after it happened, no calls to 911, calling a close family friend, saying, "Oh, my goodness. I can`t believe it," fill in the blank.

According to prosecutors, she cleaned her clothes, drove her husband`s car to the public transport station, didn`t tell anybody about what happened until the son made the gruesome discovery.

GRACE: Which son was this, the teenaged?

MIKAELIAN: I believe it was Gabriel, one of the three, not the middle one.

GRACE: I want to go straight out to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Do the word "rage killing" mean anything to you, Doctor?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, well, psychologically. I don`t know legally. But a rage killing would be in the heat of passion, when one is out of control...

GRACE: Twenty-two stab wounds?

SAUNDERS: Well, if we believe that -- we could believe Mr. Horowitz and say it was five. If it was 22 or 26, then it was in the state of rage.

GRACE: Well, Gasia, how many wounds were there?

MIKAELIAN: Well, again, we`ve heard either wounds or stabbed up to 26. But I`m sure there are some people who would argue whether they are wounds or slashes. Perhaps we`re splitting the hair just a little bit.

Suffice to say that the gruesome pictures I saw in the courtroom this morning, which were put on by Mr. Horowitz, really did paint the picture, so to speak, of what happened inside that small pool house.

GRACE: Well, Gasia, did you see the wounds on the body in the photos?

MIKAELIAN: Yes, we did.

GRACE: Well, how many stab wounds were there?

MIKAELIAN: Well, I couldn`t count, because they`re showing very close pictures of perhaps the face, perhaps another part of the body. Again, when we`re talking about wounds to the chest, to the stomach, to the hands, to the feet, we don`t get one big picture. We see several smaller ones. I didn`t have a chance to count.

GRACE: So can you tell me yes-no, Gasia, there were knife wounds, as opposed -- there could be stab or slashing, you said, to the head and face, to the hands, to the arms, to the chest, to the stomach, to the feet. Did I just hear you say that?

MIKAELIAN: That is what I`ve read in previous reports, yes.

GRACE: OK.

Dr. Saunders, what does that say to you about the nature of the stabbing?

SAUNDERS: If there were that many stabs rather than slashes, as people were struggling, then it was probably done by somebody who was out of control. But a lot of things can happen in a struggle.

GRACE: Yes. You know, you`re right. A struggle with a knife could lead to multiple slashings or cuts as opposed to stab wounds to the chest and stomach.

But, very quickly, Daniel Horowitz, I`ve only got about 20 seconds before we go to break. Level with me. What were the defensive wounds to her body?

HOROWITZ: She had two black eyes, Nancy. She had bite marks and scratches on her hands.

GRACE: Wait, are you telling me a man bit her and scratched her?

HOROWITZ: I`m sorry to say he did.

GRACE: It sounds like a fifth grade schoolyard fight between two girls.

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, first of all, there were five significant stab wounds. The rest were, as you said, her fighting him off and him on top of her trying to get the knife...

GRACE: I thought he pulled the knife on her.

HOROWITZ: Yes. But what happened is, first, he dragged her to the ground, punched her in the face, was on top of her, about to stab her, she kicked him, grabbed the knife, saying, "Get off, get off." There are no knife wounds anywhere that should have killed him. We have two medical examiners, one in the top of the United States saying those wounds were not...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, I`ve got to go -- Daniel, I`ve got to go to a hard break. But when we come back, I want to hear more about the defensive wounds. And if she wants to win this case, there`s got to be more than biting or scratching, OK?

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLK: And I hope that people will not be prejudiced by the charge that`s been brought against me and that they will listen with an open mind to what I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLK: And I hope that people will not be prejudiced by the charge that`s been brought against me and that they will listen with an open mind to what I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Forget the charge. I think it`s the 22 stab wounds that is probably going to get to the jury.

We`re talking about a California case. A woman drove a truck all the way from Montana to California to get her furniture and then, very quickly after, her husband was dead.

Back out to Gasia Mikaelian -- I`ve been working on it in the breaks, Gasia -- with KTVU. What`s the most damming evidence the state has? And what`s the defense`s best shot?

MIKAELIAN: Well, from what we could tell inside the courtroom today, I think it`s going to be up to the prosecutors to prove that, not only did she act in cold blood, that she didn`t do anything about it.

If they`re trying to refute the self-defense claim, they need to prove that she did not call 911, did not tell a friend. If it`s self-defense, you would ask for help. And in this case, that doesn`t happen.

GRACE: You know what`s amazing to me, though, Gasia, is -- Dr. Saunders was saying, in a struggle with a knife, that may have been how he got all cut up. But wait a minute. If you`re hand-to-hand struggling and rolling on the floor, why is she not cut up, too? Why are all the cuts to him?

MIKAELIAN: And that`s a good question here. I mean, it certainly is uneven. But what exactly happened -- only the autopsy and the woman inside the courtroom are able to tell us.

GRACE: OK, Daniel Horowitz, do you have more defensive wounds other than the scratching and biting you say this man inflicted on the woman?

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, you`ve got two black eyes. But remember this: She kicked him in the one place where men are more vulnerable than women and she got the knife away. The rest of the time he`s on top of her trying to get it from her.

Five stab wounds, Nancy. Why are they exaggerating and trying to make it more, if she really did what they said? It`s because it`s defensive on her part and they need to make her into a crazed woman, instead of what she was, a victim who survived.

GRACE: Daniel, Daniel, did she have a single knife wound?

HOROWITZ: No. And, Nancy, let me tell you...

GRACE: OK. That`s all I wanted to know.

HOROWITZ: ... we always feel bad when women are victims. When they`re dead, we mourn them. But when women survive, it`s always, "How could a woman win?" That`s...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, that`s not what I`m asking, Daniel. I just want truth and justice to win out in this case. And you know what? Maybe you`re right. We haven`t heard all the evidence yet.

Daniel Horowitz, thank you for being with us.

We are switching gears, very quickly, and going live to Seattle for the shaken baby case.

Rosie, do you have that picture of the tiny tot`s killer? Remember her, Sabine Bieber? We just brought you this trial live. In this case, Sabine Bieber charged with death by cough medicine on an infant.

Who could forget the Louise Woodward case, the au pair hired in a northeastern city? A jury found her guilty in the death of baby Mattie Eappen.

And now a 13-year-old baby-sitter on trial for shaking a 19-month-old child to death.

Very quickly, I want to go out to Barney Burke standing by. Barney, what happened in court today?

BARNEY BURKE, REPORTER, "PORT TOWNSEND LEADER": Well, Judge Roberts gave the defense much of what they`ve been asking for since the sitter was charged with second-degree murder back in January. She ruled out two videotaped statements where the sitter allegedly confessed to shaking the baby. And the judge also, however, allowed the sitter`s 911 call and some other statements to police to be admitted as evidence.

GRACE: You know, I heard today, Anne Bremner, joining us from Seattle -- Anne Bremner, high-profile attorney in that jurisdiction -- that the state is actually thinking of dropping the case after the judge ruled out the confessions?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, exactly. And court recessed for the bulk of the day today. And for the prosecutor to talk again to the medical examiner to see if she correctly has ascertained what that testimony will be. But the rumor is that there could be a dismissal in this case, and the case has barely started.

GRACE: Well, Anne, as much as I want to see the case go to trial -- of course, this is a bench trial -- there you see the mom just in tears, today at the end of the courtroom day, after the judge threw out the confessions.

BREMNER: Awful.

GRACE: This mom of this little girl held up the picture at the baby- sitter. And this mom must be beside herself. She comes home, the baby`s dead, and now the case could get thrown out?

BREMNER: Well, and I think that`s what was played out today, Nancy, was this cannot be happening. She wanted to show the picture and say, "Remember my baby." You know, she wants justice.

And she`s looked it in the face today, I think, in her own mind and is hoping against all odds that this case will continue. It could be a plea bargain. Bryan Hershman`s here, too...

GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you what, Anne. I would take the case to trial...

BREMNER: Sure.

GRACE: ... and lose before I threw it out, that prosecution.

BREMNER: I would, too.

GRACE: But very quickly, the police screwed the whole thing up. They did not give the girl her Miranda rights when they took her into custody. Of course, the statement`s going to be thrown out.

BREMNER: Well, and it`s like that song, you know, you have trouble and it`s tailor-made. I mean, it`s a case that is -- that exclusion came from mistakes made in the investigation. And the prosecutor was involved during that process, as well.

GRACE: Everybody, we`ll all be right back out of Seattle. But to tonight`s "Case Alert."

"All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Roberto Ramirez, wanted in connection with the January 2005 Chicago murder of 21-year-old Melissa Dorner.

Ramirez, 25, 5`6", 180 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have any information on this man, Roberto Ramirez, call the FBI, 312-421-1333.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Seattle shaken baby trial 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Stay with us, as we remember Staff Sergeant John Glen Doles, just 29, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Nineteen-month-old Freya Garden lost her life, prosecutors say, as a result of shaken baby and a severe blow to the back of the head. According to them, it all happened while she was in the care of a 13-year- old baby-sitter.

Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for being with us.

I want to go out now to a special guest joining us, the defense attorney for the 13-year-old girl, Bryan Hershman is with us.

Has the state offered your client a plea deal?

BRYAN HERSHMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Informally this morning, they told me they would put something on the table with no additional jail time and my client has turned it down. She says she`s not guilty.

GRACE: Why are you saying jail time? We all know she goes to juvie jail. In that jurisdiction, it`s called Echo Glen. It kind of looks like a gated community.

HERSHMAN: Hardly. I think something that`s missing here -- and I couldn`t help but hear your conversation with Anne Bremner...

GRACE: Go ahead.

HERSHMAN: You`re saying that, as a result of these confessions being thrown out, as it were, that the state is thinking about dismissing charges. And that`s not accurate.

You went so far as to say that you`d sooner take it to trial. Prosecutors have an obligation, an ethical obligation, to not take cases to trial that they can`t prove, where there`s insufficient evidence.

My client hasn`t confessed to anything. These statements that were thrown out are only part of the problem. The other key element to the state`s case is medical testimony. And arguably, they don`t have any of that, either.

GRACE: Did she have -- or did the baby have hemorrhage petechiae in her eye?

HERSHMAN: Yes.

GRACE: OK. That`s a red flag of alert to shaken baby syndrome.

HERSHMAN: It`s also a red flag, Nancy, of cardiovascular resuscitation -- cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

GRACE: Earlier in the preliminary hearing, you had somebody say it`s also a symptom of a stroke. Do you want to say this 19-year-old baby had a stroke?

HERSHMAN: No. She was -- they performed CPR on her for 30 minutes. And the medical examiner will testify for me on this point. He acknowledges children can get -- children -- can get bilateral retinal hemorrhages from CPR.

GRACE: Well, I have to agree with you, Bryan Hershman, that there is going to be a conflict in the testimony. But I would rather a finder of fact make that decision, as opposed to the state unilaterally throwing out the case.

HERSHMAN: I don`t know if the state`s going to do that, number one. And number two, I assure you that the deputy prosecutor in this case, as a very competent lawyer, will not walk away from this prosecution.

GRACE: Well, I hope you`re right, Bryan. Bryan Hershman is a veteran trial lawyer defending this case. Sir, thank you for being with us.

But I want to thank all of my guests, Anne Bremner, all the others. My biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. Larry`s on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off again for tonight. And I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END