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One of President Bush's Most Trusted Advisers in Front of Federal Grand Jury; Every Body Talks; Children Help Children Cope with Hurricanes

Aired October 14, 2005 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Security is tight in Iraq. It is just hours before a crucial vote on the country's future, a vote that could determine the future of the U.S. military presence there. Tomorrow's referendum on a draft constitution is seen as a key test in the push for democracy in Iraq. Despite the security clampdown, insurgents today attacked four offices of a Sunni Arab party that last struck a last-minute deal to boost support for the constitution.
"CNN PRESENTS" will take a look at how the war in Iraq is really going. "THE IRAQ WAR PROGRESS REPORT II" airs Sunday at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, and then at 8:00 p.m., "THE IRAQ WAR: VOICES FROM THE HOMEFRONT." Chief national correspondent John King digs beneath the politics to find out what Americans really think about the U.S. involvement in Iraq.

One of President Bush's most trusted advisers is in front of a federal grand jury at this hour. Karl Rove is testifying for the fourth time about the disclosure of a CIA's operative identity. Rove has insisted he did not name the woman, but after a "Time" magazine reporter revealed him as a source, Rove is the most prominent member of the Bush team to find himself under public scrutiny.

Our national correspondent Bob Franken is at the courthouse in Washington.

Bob, good morning again.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

The last time he testified, Daryn, Rove, through his lawyer, told that special prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, he would come back as needed after "Time" magazine's Matthew Cooper testified under the threat of jail, if he didn't testify, that he had a conversation with Rove about which the grand jury had not heard. Rove was invited back, and his lawyer says there is no assurance that he won't be indicted. Here we have the grand jury's term about to run out, and Karl Rove could be one of the last people to testify.

Rove along with the vice president's chief of staff, Scooter Libby, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, had been the most prominent names mentioned, as special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has conducted what is almost a two-year investigation into whether laws were broken when the name of Valerie Plame, who was a CIA operative, undercover CIA operative, was leaked in the press and the fact that she was. Fitzgerald has been investigating whether the laws were broken. The attorney for Rove has said repeatedly said that he did not know she was undercover, and did not intentionally leak her name as such. That might be a law that's covered, although there's also a lot of discussion in legal circles about other avenues for the prosecutor, including various ways that there could have been an alleged coverup.

This is winding down. Unless Fitzgerald asks for an extension of the grand jury, we can expect to see a result if he does not within the next two weeks -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Bob Franken, live in Washington D.C., thank you.

Well, the whiff of scandal, Iraq, Hurricane Katrina, discord over Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers, it all could be contributing to the low approval rating for President Bush. An NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll shows that 39 percent of the Americans approve of the way the president is doing his job. There's also this startling number, just two percent of African-Americans approve of President Bush's performance. The president has a distinct walk, some call it a Texas swagger, but have the problems in the last couple of months taken some of the confidence out of his stride?

During a live interview on NBC's "Today" show this week, the president blinked 37 times while giving a response to one question. He appeared to fidget and pivot. The first lady, on the other hand, seemed to be statue still. Is the president trying to tell us something?

Patti Ann Wood is an author and an expert in body language, and she's here with me in Atlanta this morning.

Good morning.

PATTI ANN WOOD, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Good morning.

KAGAN: Got to challenge you on the whole body language thing, first off, because one person's fidget is just -- as I fidget in the chair -- perhaps that's just how people are. Do we not -- as a body- language expert, do you not bring your own bias to what you're seeing?

WOOD: Actually we interpret body languages as experts, get a baseline, and I teach interviews and interrogation techniques. Just like a polygraph test needs a baseline, a body-language reader needs a baseline. So when we're looking at the body language we're noticing a change from the way he usually is.

KAGAN: OK, I see what you're saying here. So let's look at some recent tape. Again, this was from earlier this week.

WOOD: Okay.

KAGAN: He was asked about hurricane Katrina, and we're looking for blinks.

WOOD: Yes, the blink rate, like a polygraph test for arousal, the blink rate. KAGAN: Let's listen in. Do we have that tape? All right, we don't -- let me ask the front end, do we have any of the tapes? Here we go.

WOOD: OK. All right, this is actually he's being asked during the debates about the war in Iraq and what he's going to do in this particular tape, I believe.

KAGAN: Right.

WOOD: And what you want to look at here is, before he answers the question, there is a long pause, longer than normal, so longer than normal pause is an indication he's trying to make up an answer. He also looks away a lot. His head goes down. And the other thing I want to you notice is a slight turning up on the one corner of his right corner of his mouth.

KAGAN: Some people call that a smirk.

WOOD: Smirk, yes, talking out of the side of your mouth. And body language is highly symbolic language. When you're trying to show one thing and you're really feeling another, it makes part of your face respond, because of the way the hemispheres of the brain work.

KAGAN: OK, we're a little at the mercy of whatever tape we have here. Roll a tape and we'll figure it out. The next, oh -- so this is a gesture that it's almost become, like if you watch "Saturday Night Live," any time he's imitated.

WOOD: Yes, that is a choppy motion. Sometimes for Bush, he's coached to do that. Here he's talking about a candidate that was kind of controversial. So the choppy motion, he was very aggressive. She's great. She's wonderful. So aggressively attacking the interviewer in this case.

KAGAN: And another kind of Bush standard is how when he stands his arms are a little bit out away from his body when he walks.

WOOD: Yes, and that is symbolically making him look bigger, making sure his guns in the holster can be quickly fired at any moment. So he does that in this particular thing, in the Matt Lauer interview. You can see how he's holding them, and it's almost defensive because they're so stiff. But it's interesting that Matt Lauer is uncharacteristically attacking. He's actually pushing against the president, pushing him for an honest answer to his questions, which I think is making Bush do a little bit more of the rapid blinking. Normal blink rate, when you're talking, is about 20 beats per minute. His, as you mentioned, went beyond 30, really unusual.

KAGAN: So could that be something as simple as I'm not comfortable with the person I'm talking to you, not that I'm lying, whatever?

WOOD: It can be nervousness. What you look for, deception is the timing of that cue? What was he asked when he did the rapid blinking, and does he show it anywhere else? If he doesn't show it anywhere else, that's deception.

KAGAN: Then he's uncomfortable on that particular topic.

WOOD: With that particular question. That's the critical piece there.

KAGAN: Very good. Do we have the video of President Bush slapping people on the back? And I hope we have that.

WOOD: Yes, he was...

KAGAN: This was also a part of the same NBC interview where he was going around the Habitat -- there it is. Now you hear from people who meet the president in person. They say this is a totally different interaction, that one on one he's very comfortable, very personable, and a very likable guy.

WOOD: He gets nervous when he gets on the air, which can happen to a lot of people. We would hope by this time he would show a little bit more leadership and be a little bit calmer on the air, and here, he is slapping people on the back. I wish he had a little bit more eye contact here to be a little more present with people, but again, you can -- your eye-blink rate can go up on the air. It's just by now we want him to be a little bit more sure of himself when we're going through such trying times. I think that's why people are aware.

KAGAN: Right. So, Patti Ann, let me ask you this. In these politically charged times, because there's people who feel very strongly about the president both ways, either that he's being attacked, or that they think he's a caricature. You hear both. Looking at body language, how does that advance the conversation?

WOOD: Well, I think why we are looking at it, because we can't trust the words anymore, and in truth, body language is a much more accurate detector of what's truly going on.

KAGAN: You would trust someone's body language more than what they have to say.

WOOD: Absolutely. You can give out 10,000 cues in each minute. You can't consciously control all of that. So, obviously, it's going to be a more honest indicator of what you really feel in

KAGAN: Is it something that somebody can be coached on?

WOOD: Absolutely, both in the giving and in the reading.

KAGAN: Very good. And clearly, you've been doing a lot of reading.

Patti Ann Wood, thank you for your expertise today. Thank you for stopping by.

WOOD: Thank you.

KAGAN: We're going to meet with a couple of really cool kids coming up. They're hurricane kids. They are helping other hurricane kids. What helped one elementary school class, what helped them cope, is now helping the youngest victims of Katrina and Rita. And we're going to talk with some of the young authors of "When the Hurricane Blew." These darling ladies joining me live just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: A hurricane's damage goes far beyond the physical splinters. Storms cause emotional trauma as well, especially for children. Now, one storm of the young victims are helping others with a book about their experiences. It's called "When the Hurricane Blew." I'm going to talk to a couple of the kids who worked on this book in a minute.

First, though, here is reporter Cynthia Reeves from Pensacola affiliate WEAR.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hurricane Ivan came ashore with 150 mile per hour winds on September 16th, 2004, and devastated our hometown in Gulf Breeze, Florida.

CYNTHIA REEVES, WEAR REPORTER: "When the Hurricane Blew" is a story tips, and games by hurricane kids for hurricane kids. It's written and illustrated by Shelley Mann's 4th grade class from Gulf Breeze Elementary School.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Students: Due to the Category 5 Hurricane Ivan, school is canceled for the rest of the week.

REEVES: Graham Kaplan (ph), who lost his Tigerpoint home, will never forget the day that turned his life upside down. At first, it all seemed like a grand adventure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then when I came back, everybody was talking about it, I felt kind of sad.

REEVES: The story details the frantic rush to evacuate and the frightening return back to unrecognizable homes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom bellowed, "Pack a bag. We're going to see Aunt Shelly in Texas."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A carpet of shingles led to my bashed and shattered front door.

REEVES: Then there were the days without power, the long gas lines and grumpy moms and dads.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had spent three hours looking for gas in a steamy car, with our legs melted to the seats, because dad was afraid of using one extra ounce of gas for the air conditioning.

REEVES: The story ends with a lesson learned, about the strength of community, about hope. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But most of all, I learned that community means hearts coming together to help each other.

REEVES: Their teacher is amazed after all they've been through, her students understand the importance of reaching out to victims of Hurricane Katrina.

SHELLEY MANN, 4TH GRADE TEACHER: So the fact that they can slip their self into the shoes of another child, you know, points west, it really says a lot about the power of the heart of the child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whenever there's a bad thing, you can always find something good out of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like, if we can get through it, they can get through it, too.

REEVES: Cynthia Reeves, Channel 3 News.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Great advice. And I now have two of the book's authors and illustrators with me. They are in Pensacola, Florida. Sara Papantonio and Courtney LaCour are 5th-graders this is year at Gulf Breeze Elementary School. Ladies, good morning.

SARA PAPANTONIO, GULF BREEZE ELEMENTARY: Good morning.

COURTNEY LACOUR, GULF BREEZE ELEMENTARY: Good morning.

KAGAN: Sounds just like class. Sara, let's start with you. When Hurricane Ivan hit last year, what happened with your family?

PAPANTONIO: Well, I just remember us all evacuating, taking all our dogs, all our cats and animals, and just staying together as one family.

KAGAN: And then, Courtney, you guys didn't have school for like 19 days?

LACOUR: Yes, about.

KAGAN: It must have felt really good to get back to school.

LACOUR: Yes, it did.

KAGAN: And so then you hear this year about Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita coming in. Were you feeling bad for the kids in New Orleans and Alabama and Mississippi as they were facing that, and in Texas?

PAPANTONIO: Yes, ma'am. I felt really bad for them. Because I thought we had it bad, and they really had it much, much worse. And we're really happy that we're helping them.

KAGAN: Well, this book is a big help and -- as we look through it. I thought some of the great parts, Courtney, were the tips that you guys give. And these are not just ordinary tips. These are specific, from kid to kid. One of the tips from before the hurricane, you say make sure you grab your favorite stuffed animal.

LACOUR: Yes, ma'am.

KAGAN: And why was that important?

PAPANTONIO: Because it just helps you comfort, be comfort, and like, bring a little piece of home with you.

KAGAN: And Sara, another piece of advice before it is to get a television that uses batteries.

PAPANTONIO: Yes, so you can always know what's going on and how people are, and how is your family and how is your home and everything else.

KAGAN: Some of the pictures we're looking at now, there are some hurricane-specific puzzles that you guys put together in the back of the book.

LACOUR: Yes, ma'am.

KAGAN: Yes, the word search has great words to look for that have things that are related to the hurricane, things like flashlight and generators and water and ice and shelter. Was that fun to put together, the puzzles, as well?

PAPANTONIO: Yes.

LACOUR: Yes it was, because we knew that the book, it would be a lot more fun if it had games and tips in it.

KAGAN: See, something a kid would know. You also have tips for after the hurricane and on that list, ladies, you say, be patient with your parents.

LACOUR: Yes, because they have a hard time cleaning the yard and picking up after the house.

PAPANTONIO: And so much stress that we just need to try to help them, and just stay on track.

KAGAN: And you also talk about keeping a journal, both before and during. How did writing your story help?

PAPANTONIO: Well, keeping a journal, it's just memories. You can just remember it always and then tell your grandchildren. That's what our base on the book was about.

KAGAN: Very good. The book is lovely, and great pictures. And are you making sure that they get sent to some of the kids that live to the west?

PAPANTONIO: Yes. LACOUR: Yes, we are.

KAGAN: And have you heard from any of the kids?

PAPANTONIO: Ma'am?

KAGAN: Have you heard from any of the kids that have seen your book yet?

PAPANTONIO: One mother, and she said she got it the worst in I think Katrina. She said thank you for writing the book, and she wants to purchase a lot of them.

KAGAN: And people can get that, I think, barnesandnoble.com. They can go online and get. I just have one more question for you. How cool is your teacher Shelley Mann, Ms. Mann?

PAPANTONIO: She's amazing.

LACOUR: She's one of the best teachers we've ever had.

PAPANTONIO: She's so energetic and happy and always cheering us on and she's making all of these faces.

KAGAN: Was that a big help last year, when you guys were going through all the hurricane stuff?

LACOUR: Yes.

PAPANTONIO: Yes.

KAGAN: That's a teacher you'll remember the rest of your lives. So thanks to Mrs. Mann for helping with the book and helping us meet you. And good luck with the book and to you and all of your classmates, as well.

Thank you.

PAPANTONIO: Thank you very much.

KAGAN: That is Sara and Courtney, Gulf Breeze Elementary School. Mrs. Mann's class last year, fourth grade. But fifth year this year, right?

PAPANTONIO: Yes.

KAGAN: We're growing up. OK. Once again, the book is called "When the Hurricane Blew." Congratulations to the kids at Gulf Breeze Elementary School. Thanks for being with me, ladies.

PAPANTONIO: Bye!

LACOUR: Bye!

KAGAN: Bye! Severe flooding in the Northeast is the big weather story today and it's raining again. How bad is it going to get? We'll take a check of the weather when CNN LIVE TODAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER UPDATE)

(MARKET UPDATE)

KAGAN: Ahead in our next hour, how rude are Americans? And what are some examples of rude behavior that really drive you up the wall? You're going to find out what a new poll says coming up.

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