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INSIGHT

Hugo Chavez Interview

Aired October 17, 2005 - 23:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST: South America's Socialist Santa Claus. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is spreading his oil wealth through his country and across the continent. What will all those billions buy him?
Hello and welcome.

Right now it is essentially Christmas in Caracas. Rising oil prices boosted Venezuelan economic growth to an astonishing 17 percent last year. The government is making billions of dollars and spending them on houses, education, medical care. It is also helping neighboring countries with their oil bills and their old debt. And yet poverty and unemployment persist in the kind of numbers that should worry any government. More than half of Venezuela's 25 million people were found to be below the poverty line. Then the government found a new way to measure the poverty line and the numbers suddenly got better.

Changing the numbers, changing the landscape, changing things in general is what Hugo Chavez is all about. On our program today, Hugo Chavez and his checkbook. In a moment, CNN's Lucia Newman will bring us her interview with President Chavez. First, her look at what he's up to.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A charismatic populist, like Argentina's Peron. A fiery leftist like Cuba's Castro. Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez is a man with a plan for an alternative to what he calls U.S. hemispheric imperialism. All paid for with Venezuela's vast oil wealth.

In La Vega, a hillside slum outside Caracas, the roof of this house has been converted into an adult literacy classroom where Elena Gutierrez (ph) goes every afternoon.

"I only studied until second grade. Now I'll be getting my high school diploma in November," she says.

Across the road Chichi Loco (ph), a 15-year-old, is no longer on the street. Instead, he's surfing the Internet, for free, at a community computer center.

"We can use it for chatting, but also for getting information for homework," he says.

Even at the government-subsidized supermarket, where prices are 30 percent below normal, President Chavez has installed computer booths.

Education, housing and social services for the have-nots, including an army of Cuban doctors in every slum, have made Chavez a hero to millions of poor Venezuelans, who also receive handsome government subsidies to offset high unemployment.

With world oil prices skyrocketing, Chavez, through Venezuela's state- owned oil company, has billions at his disposal. Now he wants to use it to make friends and influence people throughout the hemisphere by offering his neighbors cut-price oil with long-term financing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For every 100,000 barrels of oil, the Caribbean nations will save close to a billion dollars, which is very important to this country so beaten up by capitalism, by neo- liberalism.

NEWMAN: On his latest trip to Cuba to visit his close friend and ally Fidel Castro, Chavez also announced a joint Cuban-Venezuelan venture to provide free eye operations to 6 million people in the next decade.

This former oil company executive says petrol diplomacy isn't new.

LUIS PACHECO, FMR. PDVSA EXECUTIVE: Ever since Winston Churchill decided the British Navy should go from coal to oil, oil has been a geopolitical weapon. What is new is maybe the extent to which it's used and the amount of territory it is trying to cover.

NEWMAN: From Havana to Patagonia, Chavez is offering oil and health services to advance what he calls Alba, an alternative to the hemispheric free trade agreement promoted by Washington, referred to by Chavez as the empire.

For Chavez, oil isn't just energy. It's a revolutionary weapon to be used to counter U.S. influence and build what he calls Socialism for the new millennium.

Say hello to Telesur, a new cable television network funded by the Venezuelan government as an alternative to CNN. Kind of like a Spanish language Al Jazeera.

Telesur's news director, a Colombian, explains it will allow Latin Americas to see themselves through their own eyes. Right now they're broadcasting only a few hours a day from these cramped quarters.

(on camera): But that's only for starters. Telesur will move into these brand new studios with state-of-the-art technology, from where they'll be broadcasting 24 hours a day all over Latin America and the Caribbean.

(voice-over): Conservatives in the U.S. Congress and the White House predict it will serve as an anti-American mouthpiece to destabilize the region with anti-capitalist propaganda. Inside Venezuela, the capitalists, represented by the private sector, are raising red flags.

The president of the Industrialist Association says 40 percent of private industries have closed since Chavez took office seven years ago.

EDUARDO GOMEZ, VENEZUELAN CHAMBER OF INDUSTRIES: I think that's the problem, that we don't know exactly what the president wants except that he wants control of the country. There is a lot of uncertainty.

NEWMAN: Making good on his revolutionary agenda, this month President Chavez began expropriating large rural estates, including some owned by American and British companies. For now, Chavez has the support of poor Venezuelans, who make up the majority.

Opponents, though, like this former oil executive and economist, are betting it won't last.

JOSE TORO JARDI, ECONOMIST (through translator): What's happening is that Chavez is trying to export a revolution that's going to collapse first in Venezuela the day the price of oil falls, when he can't afford to buy the people's allegiance anymore.

NEWMAN: But until and if that money runs out, even Chavez's staunchest critics concede there seems to be no stopping him.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Caracas, Venezuela.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We take a break now. When we come back, we hear from the president himself. Lucia Newman's interview with Hugo Chavez, next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: Hugo Chavez came to power in a landslide victory, but his term in office has been plagued by protest. In the seven years Chavez has been president, there have been rolling national strikes, a recall, even a coup attempt. But Chavez doesn't just hang on. He goes from strength to strength. His approval rating is said to be around 60 percent and his supporters, the so-called Chavistas, consolidated their power last year by sweeping regional elections.

Welcome back.

Relations between Washington and Caracas have been frosty, particularly frosty since George W. Bush took office. Washington considers Mr. Chavez undemocratic. Mr. Chavez is even more outspoken in his views of the United States. Recently the Venezuelan president sat down with our Lucia Newman for a chat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NEWMAN: Mr. President, the Reverend Jesse Jackson has appealed both to you and to the White House to call for a detente on the hostile rhetoric and the insults between both countries as a first step towards trying to stop the deterioration, the further deterioration, of bilateral relations. Are you willing to do that?

HUGO CHAVEZ, PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): We are the ones being attacked. It all began with aggression against us by the U.S. government. I told Reverend Jackson I wish we could have the same relations we had when Clinton was president. I would be thrilled to recover that kind of respectable relationship with the current U.S. government.

NEWMAN: You say that the White House treats you without respect, but you too, every time you refer to the United States you talk about the empire, the world's most terrorist government. You know, it has to be a two-way street.

CHAVEZ (through translator): Each one of those statements of mine are my response to the imperial aggression. I am telling the truth when I say that the coup attempt against me, against Venezuela, which took place a few meters from here and which cost so many lives, that coup attempt was planned in Washington, D.C. We have proof.

NEWMAN: The government denies it.

CHAVEZ (through translator): They can deny it all they want, but we have irrefutable evidence, videos, files, witnesses.

NEWMAN: The fact is that the White House and many in Congress too see you as a threat to regional stability, as someone who is openly inciting not just Venezuela but many other countries in the region to be anti- capitalist, anti-American and anti-democratic. What do you say to that?

CHAVEZ (through translator): What is the cause of the profound destabilization we have seen in Latin America and the Caribbean? It is the economic model imposed by Washington. Savage capitalism, neo-liberalism, poverty, poverty, more poverty. That is the consequence of the capitalist model, especially in its savage neo-liberal phase. Those are the policies that have destabilized this continent.

Why the crisis in Bolivia, a country rich in natural gas and energy but with millions of impoverished Indians. Except that now the people are awakening now. No, me, Hugo Chavez, I'm just a (UNINTELLIGIBLE). What is in motion here in Latin America is a process of awareness with millions, not just me, calling for change, profound changes in politics, in economics, democratic changes.

NEWMAN: What would you propose, a model similar to that of your friend President Fidel Castro of Cuba?

CHAVEZ (through translator): Fidel is more than a friend. Fidel is like an older brother. But Fidel is Fidel and Cuba is Cuba and has its own characteristics. Venezuela is Venezuela and we are carrying out a social revolution of our own, a democratic revolution.

I was elected and reelected. I was relegitimized with a recall referendum. It's a profoundly democratic, profoundly Venezuelan model.

NEWMAN: You said that you're going towards Socialism, that you too are going towards Socialism. Exactly what is your -- what does that mean?

CHAVEZ (through translator): You see, capitalism is the road that leads to hell, and I hope that it's not too late for those who want to recognize that. Capitalism is destroying our planet, Lucia. Those deadly hurricanes, like we haven't seen in centuries, we are analyzing the causes.

The debate we are having now is how to build a new model, the democratic Socialism. We are opening Socialist alternatives, like I mentioned earlier, to return power to the people, to transfer resources to the people. We aren't giving resources to the private sector so they can charge I don't know how many millions of bolivars to the poor people who can't pay.

NEWMAN: Let me insist on this. Are you calling for an end to private property or at least to private enterprise?

CHAVEZ (through translator): Only as long as in our current constitution it has a social function. Only as long as private property doesn't affect society. If it affects society, then I am against it.

NEWMAN: But that's very subjective.

CHAVEZ (through translator): It depends on how you see it. A private company that wants to make lots of money by contaminating a lake or a river, we have to be against it, and right now we are in a war against large states, huge holdings of fertile land, of hundreds of thousands of acres that are not being properly used while hundreds of thousands of peasants don't have a single acre and they have nothing to eat and can't produce. That private property is obscene, and in Venezuela it's against the constitution. It is illegal and immoral.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Hugo Chavez. Well, as you just heard in that interview, Mr. Chavez regards Fidel Castro as an older brother, one of his best friends. And just like Fidel Castro, Mr. Chavez is open about his wish to extend Socialism beyond his country's borders.

Joining us now to talk a little bit about the two leaders is someone who has met them both, our Havana bureau chief, Lucia Newman.

Lucia, thanks for being with us. Thanks for making the trip to Venezuela.

Is Hugo Chavez essentially Fidel Castro with a checkbook?

NEWMAN: Hi, Jonathan.

Well, if you ask Hugo Chavez, he says that there's one big difference. For now, at least, Jonathan, he says he's not a Communist, even though every day he seems to sound more and more like his bearded Cuban ally, I have to say. And it is true, though, that Hugo Chavez has a lot more money than Fidel Castro.

Back in the '70s and '80s, when Fidel Castro wanted to export his revolution, he used to send commandoes out to many parts of Latin America to help train leftist guerilla groups. Now President Chavez is trying to export his brand of revolution by giving away or certainly lowering the price of his oil. And he's certainly making a lot of friends by doing that -- Jonathan.

MANN: Let me ask you just on a personal level about the comparison between the two men. They even seem similar physically. Big barrel- chested men with big ideas, big visions for the future. Did you find them similar?

NEWMAN: Well, obviously, Fidel Castro is a lot older, a lot slower, a lot grayer than he was. But back when he took power, he was a lot like Hugo Chavez is today. Both very, very charismatic figures, there is no doubt about that. Even their worst enemies have to concede that they are charismatic, that they draw crowds, and that they manage to really seduce a lot of people, especially the poor.

Certainly that is what Hugo Chavez is doing now. He's only been in power, though, seven years. President Fidel Castro, as we know, has been in power more than 45 though -- Jonathan.

MANN: Let me ask you about the impact that Chavez's ideas are having, because there are knowledgeable people outside the country and inside it would seem that say that this windfall, all this oil money, is masking the fact that Chavez and his Bolivarian revolution are destroying the economy. What's your impression having visited?

NEWMAN: Well, look, you know, it depends on whom you ask. You talk to any mainstream economist, Jonathan, and they'll tell you that while on the one hand they applaud Chavez's social programs, they say, as do most people, that they are long, long overdue in a country like Venezuela, where there is so much poverty. They also warn that he needs to incentivate long term employment. He needs to incentivate local industry. And that what's happening is quite the contrary.

In fact, we heard from the head of the Industrialist Association that more than 40 percent of industries and local businesses have had to shut down since President Chavez took office. I also spoke while I was in Venezuela to a lot of cattle farmers. They're very concerned, too. They say that President Chavez is exporting, or exchanging Venezuelan oil for cheap Argentine meat, which they're bringing into Venezuela instead of selling Venezuelan meat.

And then, of course, we've got this whole issue of the expropriations of large land holdings. A lot of people are concerned that in Venezuela the same thing is going to happen that has happened here in Cuba. And that is that they're going to turn the country-side into one large government- run cooperative, where nobody owns anything, so nobody really has any incentive to produce -- Jonathan.

MANN: Our Havana bureau chief, Lucia Newman. Thanks very much for this.

We take a break. When we come back, are there limits to what Hugo Chavez can accomplish? A reality check, when we return.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): A far-fetched Fatwa. Back in August, American television evangelist Pat Robertson suggested that the United States should assassinate Hugo Chavez. Robertson quickly apologized, but a few days ago he returned to the same subject.

PAT ROBERTSON, U.S. TV EVANGELIST: This man is setting up a Marxist type dictatorship in Venezuela. He's trying to spread Marxism throughout South America. He is negotiating with the Iranians to get nuclear material. And he also sent $1.2 million in cash to Osama bin Laden right after 9/11.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Welcome back.

Pat Robertson is not taken entirely seriously in the ruling circles of the United States. Hugo Chavez is taken seriously in Washington and elsewhere. But that doesn't mean he's liked.

Joining us now to talk about that is John Walsh of the Washington Office on Latin America, a non-profit organization promoting democracy, human rights and social justice in the region.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Let me ask you first of all, Hugo Chavez is clearly trying to buy a certain amount of influence outside of Venezuela through the region. What does he intend to do with that influence? What does he really represent?

JOHN M. WALSH, WASHINGTON OFFICE ON LATIN AMERICA: Well, I don't think Hugo Chavez has made any secret of what he'd like to do. He'd like to challenge U.S. supremacy and U.S. hegemony in the region, which he sees, and I think he has many Latin Americans convinced of the same, that the United States has meant propping up corrupt leaders and dooming millions of Latin Americans to poverty. And he says he has the answers to that and he wants to claim the mantle of the Latin American leader who will stand up to the United States and who will solve the issues of the day for Latin America, which are for most people poverty and inequality.

MANN: Is he succeeding?

WALSH: I think in some respects he is succeeding, and the first is he has an enormous reservoir of goodwill built up in Venezuela, not simply because of what he says and has done but because of what happened before he came on the scene and what actually propelled him on to the scene, which was disastrous economic management and corruption on a huge scale that did plunge and keep the majority of Venezuelans in poverty.

So there is in a sense no going back and that helps Chavez immeasurably, and I think a lot of -- you hear a lot of wishful thinking of, well, when the oil prices drop, he's going to be in big trouble. Well, what is the option? And I think a lot of people in Venezuela and elsewhere in Latin America say I'm poor and this is the first leader in my lifetime who has ever even acknowledged me. So I think he has enormous credibility built up on main issues where his competitors and the United States, to put a point on it, doesn't.

MANN: Is there a downside? Are his opponents inside Venezuela, are other countries near Venezuela, likely to be disadvantaged by all of this?

WALSH: Well, I think in contrast to how the United States-Venezuelan relations have been, which is very rocky and marred by extreme rhetoric on both sides to be sure, I think you see a much more pragmatic approach in the region, not only among Caribbean countries who are jumping at the deal for concessionary terms on oil, but even and especially I would say with Colombia, which shares a very long and very porous border with Venezuela, has a lot to fear in theory from Chavez's leanings politically, but also --

MANN: Let me -- forgive me. I've got to interrupt you on that very point, because he is accused of supporting the FARC in Colombia, a terrible guerilla organization. He's accused of supporting Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua. He's accused of supporting extremists or radical groups in other countries as well, but Colombia is an sufficient place to start.

WALSH: Well, Colombia is a good place to start, and I think if you look at the relationship between President Uribe, who is as unlike President Chavez in Venezuela as you can imagine and a staunch U.S. ally, how pragmatic he has been, especially since a flare up in a border dispute months ago, realizing that so much of both of their countries economies are tied together. The relationship is not one that can be taken lightly, and they're working on it, I think, in a much more constructive manner than some people in Washington would have expected.

MANN: What about his shopping trips? Venezuela is buying a lot of conventional weapons and now there have been reports that have been confirmed, at least in official circles in Argentina, that it's shopping around for nuclear technology as well. Is it a country that just as it's flexing its muscles politically and ideologically, is it about to start flexing its muscles militarily, do you think?

WALSH: I think the arms issues and even the nuclear energy issues are laying down a marker, and this is what Chavez talks about and this needs to be taken seriously, and should give everyone pause who hasn't taken Chavez seriously. He wants to be a major player and this is a bid to say these are the trappings of power of a major player.

Armaments that can intimidate and nuclear energy, which in the case of Venezuela's abundant cheap oil seems almost beside the point. But those are the trappings of power, and in the case of Venezuela, again, U.S. criticisms have rung hollow in Latin America given that the United States is bankrolling the Colombian military to billions of dollars over the past several years, and Chavez claims that that threat is what justifies renovating his own armed forces.

So it's a very touchy issue and it's a very tricky one to criticize Chavez's foreign policy when it's in many respects for the United States it's the pot calling the kettle black.

MANN: It sounds like you're saying he's not a perfect figure but on the whole he may be a force for improvement in that part of the world.

WALSH: He's certainly not a perfect figure. There are a lot of ways where he -- both in terms of domestic politics and foreign policy, has -- is troubling. On the other hand, for the United States and other countries in the hemisphere concerned about what Chavez is saying and doing, the problem is the field has been left wide open to his brand of populism because of a lack of response to the major issues of the day in Latin America, those being poverty and inequality especially, and fueled by high oil prices. Chavez certainly has the field to his own so far.

MANN: John Walsh, of the Washington Office on Latin America. Thank you so much for talking with us.

WALSH: Thank you, Jonathan.

MANN: That's INSIGHT for today. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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