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CNN Live At Daybreak

Dam Danger; FEMA's Response

Aired October 18, 2005 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: From the Time Warner Center in New York, this is DAYBREAK with Carol Costello and Chad Myers.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning to you. Thank you for waking up with us. Welcome to the second half-hour of DAYBREAK.

Coming up in the next 30 minutes, e-mail traffic is shedding light into what was being said behind closed doors in the days after Hurricane Katrina.

And more signs of life returning to the French Quarter with the toll of the school bell.

But first, "Now in the News."

Private planes are returning to Reagan National. This morning they will start landing at the Washington-area airport for the first time since 9/11. Commercial flights have been back there for years.

The city of Taunton, Massachusetts braces for what could be a wave of water. They fear a rain-swollen river could burst this timber dam at any moment. About 2,000 people have already been evacuated.

Wilma is not slowing down. The tropical storm is gaining strength in the Caribbean and could become the season's 12th hurricane.

So where is it headed -- Chad?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, it is headed to the Yucatan Peninsula. And then it's going to make a right-hand turn. This is the official Hurricane Center forecast. And then it's going to slam into south Florida.

This is Category 1, Category 3, Category 3 all the way into Saturday morning. And then, probably Saturday afternoon some type of landfall.

Now, taking with that in mind, the cone goes all the way back from Cuba to all the way up past Tampa, even into Apalachicola, if this decides to turn left or turn right. And in fact, a similar storm named Mitch back in 1988 didn't make this turn at all. Continued straight, straight into Honduras, caused massive flooding, massive deaths throughout this area as the storm just became a very big storm because of the warm water here and then stopped right over land. And then never did hit the United States at all. So those are the options for us right now. This is the most likely option, according to the Hurricane Center, that's why they put that in the middle of the line there and then the cone gets wider around it.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COSTELLO: Hey, Chad, let's talk more about this dam in Taunton, Massachusetts, because at any minute that dam could break.

MYERS: Yes, it's...

COSTELLO: And it could flood a whole town.

MYERS: It's a wooden structure. You can see it there. It's probably holding back -- it's hard to get a gauge on it, but it doesn't look like it's holding back more than about six feet of water. But if that six feet actually is holding back an entire lake that's six feet high, then you literally have a wall of water that could come crashing downstream.

COSTELLO: Yes, people from the city of Taunton have already been told to evacuate. Most of them have, as we understand it. Taunton, by the way, is about 33 miles south of Boston, in case you were wondering.

We're awaiting a news conference from the mayor there, Mayor Robert Nunes. He's going to bring us up to date about exactly what is happening and what people should do. They have set up shelters, but I don't know if those shelters can accommodate everybody in the town.

Let's go right to reporter Steve Cooper from WHDH.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVE COOPER, WHDH-TV REPORTER (on camera): But this is one of those stories which sort of looks can be deceiving. Because, as you look behind us here, you see this Taunton police barricade that's all set up here on Whittenton Street. And just beyond us, not far, about 200 or 300 feet or yards beyond us, is actually where the dam that's been compromised is located. And that's where all the concern is right now.

And in fact, police sort of keep pushing people back and moving this sort of barrier setup a little further back because they are concerned about public safety this morning. You can see some of the cruisers that have now been positioned in place, as well as police officers try to keep the people back that are waking up this morning, saying, you know, what's actually going on here?

Well what's going on here is a couple of hours ago it sort of seemed like everything was OK, and that was sort of what we were going on. And literally, about an hour ago, mutual aid was called in.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: OK, we're going to break away from Steve Cooper's report because Mayor Robert Nunes is about to speak at the podium.

As you heard that reporter saying, emergency crews are on the scene, keeping a close eye on that dam. We do understand that most of the town has been evacuated, some 2,000 people. Special shelters have been set up.

Hopefully the mayor will begin speaking in just a minute to bring us up to date on this.

Chad, how much rain did that area of Massachusetts get?

MYERS: Literally 10 inches, Carol, from when it started to when it stopped. That was about a 96-hour period, almost four days. But upstream and upriver, all that water did get into these dammed-off areas. And some of the dams had to be a little bit released to let other dams downstream fill up. So this was the problem here.

COSTELLO: Yes.

Mayor Robert Nunes, let's listen.

MAYOR ROBERT NUNES, TAUNTON, MASSACHUSETTS: We ready?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ready when you are -- sir.

NUNES: OK.

Good morning, my name is Mayor Robert Nunes. I am mayor of the city of Taunton.

The city of Taunton is still in a state of emergency. At about 2:00 a.m., the dam at Whittenton Mills changed. There is additional deterioration to the dam. As I speak, the dam is deteriorating. There is an increase of water flow over the last hour.

There will be no school in all schools in the city of Taunton. All government offices, courts, businesses in the downtown area will be closed. All streets in the downtown area are closed. We encourage the residents who live along the Mill River to evacuate. There is a shelter at Taunton High School at the Field House. And that shelter is being managed by volunteers of the Taunton Emergency Management Agency and the American Red Cross. Again, people will not be allowed in the downtown area.

The National Guard has been called and deployed and they are responding with personnel and equipment. We have the Taunton Police Department and the Taunton Fire Department managing this operation, and they are obviously on the scene, along with the Massachusetts State Police, the Bristol County Sheriff's Office. The Taunton Fire Department has activated neutral aide. Volunteers from the Taunton Emergency Management Agency and staff from the Massachusetts Emergency Management Agency are on the scene. Dive teams and divers are on the scene.

At this time, I would ask Chief -- Fire Chief Joseph Rose to say a few words -- chief. FIRE CHIEF JOSEPH ROSE, TAUNTON FIRE DEPARTMENT: Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

ROSE: My name is Joe Rose, I'm the Fire Chief here in Taunton. And I'd like to go over some of the measures we've taken to further ensure the safety of the citizens of Taunton.

We've widened the scope of our evacuation areas in the downstream portion of the river basin to include those areas now that we feel may be affected in the event that the dam deteriorates any farther. The Taunton Police Department is assisting in helping to evacuate those areas.

NUNES: At this time, I'd ask Matthew Belisle (ph), a dam engineer of Pyra (ph) Engineering, to just give us an update -- Matthew.

MATTHEW BELISLE, DAM ENGINEER, PYRA ENGINEERING: Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

We've inspected the dam over the last several hours, and the condition is continuing to deteriorate, as the mayor indicated. This deterioration is allowing additional flows to pass through the dam unregulated.

While this does increase the amount of flow itself, it also helps to lower the pressure behind the dam and remove the water. So it is not 100 percent detrimental to the structure. It is a deterioration, but it is helping to relieve some of the pressure on the dam itself.

NUNES: Questions.

QUESTION: How many people spent the night in the shelter?

NUNES: Approximately 53.

QUESTION: Is this now a question of what if or when?

BELISLE: At this point, there's an indication that the structure is slowing deteriorating with this different pieces patiking (ph). It's hard to say what will happen to the structure. But, as I indicated, additional flows are helping, so there could be some benefits to that.

QUESTION: What will happen if the dam actually fails?

BELISLE: If the dam actually fails, there will be a release of water into the downtown area and anticipated flooding.

QUESTION: How many feet in the downtown area are we talking about, approximately?

BELISLE: There could be a significant rise above the already swollen banks of the channel itself.

QUESTION: Are we talking about knee level, if you were to walk you know on the streets downtown (INAUDIBLE)?

BELISLE: The depth of flow would probably be sufficient to knock someone over. So it wouldn't be advisable to be in the downtown area. But...

QUESTION: Is the evacuation mandatory or is it just recommended? You said encouraged.

NUNES: It is strongly recommended. And we are encouraging the residents to evacuate along the Mill River.

QUESTION: Are you aware of anyone who has not left their homes?

(CROSSTALK)

NUNES: Excuse me?

QUESTION: Are you aware of anyone who has not left their homes? Are you going, trying to check to see if people are still there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people had opted to stay behind. But once we found the further deterioration of the dam, we had units on all night that were rolling and keeping an eye on the neighborhood. Those units were activated and went door to door, used speakers to encourage anyone we are aware of that stayed behind to move out because of the increased likelihood the dam could fail.

QUESTION: Do you expect the water could take out homes and buildings?

BELISLE: Structures that are located within the flood zone could be damaged, but it all depends upon the rate of rise and the velocity of the water flowing through the channel.

QUESTION: And how large is the area that you think could be affected?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three miles, two miles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anywhere from the Mill River down to the Taunton River, the area could be affected. The worse case scenario would be a surge. But best case scenario would be like a bathtub in which we're praying the water would go out easily.

What we've done with the emergency management, with the fire chief, police, state police and all MEMA, we plan for the worst. One thing we learned from all of the disasters in New Orleans, we plan for the worst. We will take the steps to protect the people.

Having said that, we hope for the best. But because of our experiences shared here, and everybody with the command center that's been working all night, we've been putting in plans in place as we plan them, starting at the beginning, and that's what we're expanding. So we're preparing for the worst. We hope it doesn't happen. That's the whole planning behind this.

QUESTION: What is the thought behind the dive teams being here?

NUNES: Chief.

ROSE: In the event that the dam does fail and there is a surge of water, there will always be some residual water that will stay in the basin area. And the divers will be prepared to move into those areas and you need to you know rescue any residences and any observers that were caught in the surge and those sorts of things. And they're well equipped and well trained to operate in this type of environment. They train in it all the time, you know, in the water and in swift water moving type things, and that's why they're on standby.

QUESTION: Now obviously it's very early in the morning right now, a lot of people are sleeping, they don't realize that this situation has taken off to be something serious. Sir, are you going door to door or waking people up?

NUNES: Yes, we are going door to door, as the chief said. And all of you got the message out last evening. And with this early briefing, I'm sure people will be tuning in for the 6:00 news.

QUESTION: How high do you think that surge of water could be if the dam failed?

BELISLE: Again, it's very variable, depending upon the rate at which the dam fails. And we can't give an answer at that point. We've evacuated, or the town has evacuated an area that they feel could be impacted by that flood. But to give a depth of water at this point would be premature.

QUESTION: Is there anything that could be done on the other end to try to release any kind of pressure or anything like that?

BELISLE: Evaluations have been made to try to bypass some flows or hold back some flows in the upstream area, and those activities are continuing as we speak. But at this point, there are not any other alternatives that are feasible.

QUESTION: What are you expecting to happen to the dam in the next few hours?

BELISLE: I'm hoping that it will continue to stand. But there is ongoing deterioration and there is the potential for that to continue.

QUESTION: So there's nothing being done to the dam right now to stop this water from deteriorating the dam?

BELISLE: At this point, the structure is being monitored full time. And as I indicated, there are evaluations going on to what could be done to the structure if there is anything at this time.

QUESTION: Is it likely that the dam will fail?

BELISLE: I can't answer that question. We can indicate that it is deteriorating and there is concern.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like to add one other thing. On the newscast we asked you, encourage people, we do not want them coming down to the center of Taunton for sightseeing or anything else. We're setting it up to keep people out. And if anything everybody can say, we do not want people coming in to the center of the city. Thank you.

NUNES: Thank you.

There will be a press briefing at 10:00 a.m. here in the council chambers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standby.

NUNES: Thank you.

COSTELLO: All right. And you've been listening to emergency officials from Taunton, Massachusetts, along with the Mayor Robert Nunes.

I want to talk a little bit about this timber dam, Chad, and maybe you can help me with it.

MYERS: All right.

COSTELLO: There aren't very many of those in existence. The state of Massachusetts has 3,000 dams built of timber. And right now you heard the engineer there say that the major task now is balancing the pressure behind the dam with the water in front of it.

MYERS: Right. You can see that this is not -- I don't think this is a very new structure, to say the least. And there are some repairs there on the backside. Those little looks like clamps there, possibly go down. This looks like something that was built a long time ago, possibly for a mill. They called it the Whittenton Mill.

And I just went on Google Maps and I did put in Whittenton Mill. W-H-I-T-T-E-N-T-O-N and then put Mill, Massachusetts, or Mass., and you will find the letter E there. The Craftsman Incorporated Company is right there on that mill, right there on that street called Whittenton Street. And if you look behind it and go and click on the word satellite, you will be able to see. It's actually right here. It's going to be hard for you to see, but...

COSTELLO: Yes, try to do that for us.

MYERS: Here's Whittenton Street right here. Now Taunton itself is still well south of here. But there's a small lake back up here. And I assume that this line right there is the dam, because it is the only dam right there on the street. As we move in, let me get a pen so that I can point with something smaller than my big finger. There is the dam right there. A lake back behind it. When this dam, if this dam fails, it will flow into this part of the river, into the Mill River.

Now if I take you down. I'm going to bring you down toward Taunton, that there are homes on both sides and businesses on both sides of this river. A fairly good floodplain through here as well. That's what all the trees are in the floodplain.

Back on down, and then we get farther and closer in to downtown. Downtown itself, downtown Taunton still down here to the south. The river comes in and then finally joins the Nix (ph) River here. And as soon as it joins the river that's coming out of the north here, as soon as you get that joining going on, the rest of that flooding will be absolutely no big deal.

Let me zoom out, and it's going to be fast, because this is how it happens on Google Maps, but Taunton itself right there. Go over to the word map. The downtown area right there, the flood threat right up there. And as it floods right on down through into northern downtown Taunton right into the river itself. As soon as it hits the bigger river, that little bit of surge, what, the -- maybe even if it's four or five feet, the surge on the lower part of the river will be less than a foot -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Right. But worse case scenario, emergency officials were saying if the dam burst, it could unleash a wall of water up to six feet high and flood neighborhoods, including downtown Taunton, which seemed to be...

MYERS: Correct.

COSTELLO: ... what they were most concerned about. They're telling people to stay out of there.

MYERS: Yes.

COSTELLO: In fact, they're concerned that sightseers will go there, because the force of the water could actually knock you over if you're there at the point where the dam bursts.

MYERS: Absolutely. It's not a straight river. You can tell how you know how of a meandering river that is. And that tells you that it's not very steep. When you get a river that meanders back and forth, like the Mississippi, you don't get a very steep channel. And so this water may be in this little channel for a while. So that's what they're concerned about.

COSTELLO: Yes, and the dam itself, I guess it's buckling in places. But it was inspected two years ago, and it came back only in fair conditions, which is interesting.

MYERS: And it looks like they are trying to open more gates or let more water through. That's what they were talking about when they said and we're letting the water out, we're letting water through, trying to release the pressure from the backside, trying to lower the lake level so that there's not as much pressure on the top.

COSTELLO: Well, we're going to keep monitoring this.

MYERS: We certainly will.

COSTELLO: But this is what's happening in Taunton, Massachusetts this morning.

Let's talk about FEMA now, because, as you know, FEMA came under heavy criticism in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. Now we're getting a first look at some of the internal confusion that FEMA was dealing with. Memos and e-mails show, in many cases, that resources were in short supply in the days right after the disaster.

We get more on the notes from CNN Homeland Security correspondent Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Feuding and fumbling over the response to Katrina documented in many of the e-mails obtained by CNN. FEMA had Mike Brown's deputy chief of staff cast scorn on the creation of an interagency crisis group by the White House. "Let them play their little reindeer games as long as they are not turning around and tasking us with their stupid questions."

When Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff designates Brown principal federal officer, putting him in charge of the relief effort, Brown perceives it as a step down.

"Demote the under secretary to principal federal officer," FEMA Press Secretary Sharon Worthy wrote Brown. "What about the precedent being set? What does this say about executive management and leadership in the agency?"

Brown's one-word response, "Exactly."

Brown's whereabouts are unknown at times. When FEMA's lead official in Mississippi is told that General Russel Honore, in charge of the military response to Katrina, needs to speak with Brown very badly, he responds, "Not here in Mississippi. Is in Louisiana, as far as I know."

FEMA's scramble for supplies and personnel is evident. "Food is also critical. Need MRE and/or heater meals, if you have any," one FEMA official writes. "Know Florida is providing law enforcement. Need all you can send. Have used Dixie Company body bags (250) got more?"

Several e-mails indicate the media was a factor in decision making. August 31, Brown writes about Bay St. Louis. "CNN asking where's FEMA. Would like to air drop or do something there."

Another official responds, "I am afraid we have built expectations over the years that might not be achievable for this catastrophic event."

(on camera): The Department of Homeland Security says some of the e-mails are not consistent with the facts and that they give only a small glimpse of a much larger picture. Expect chapter and verse from Michael Chertoff when he is quizzed about the e-mails before a congressional committee on Wednesday.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Something good out of Katrina now. Back to school is a sign that life is slowly getting back to normal in New Orleans. Cathedral Academy has become the first school to reopen in the French Quarter. Most of the students are coming from other hurricane-ravaged areas. And they've been forced to learn some hard lessons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SISTER MARY CECILIA GOODRUM, TEACHER: It's overwhelming to read some of the worst experiences. It's watching my house float away. Watching a tornado come down my street. How the kids were at another school. Hearing the noises of the wind. So that says it. That's a different type of first day of school here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SISTER MARY ROSE BINGHAM, PRINCIPAL: Just sometimes they just need you to hold their hand or give them a hug. That's what they need the most.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Many of the school's classrooms were damaged by wind and rain, so some classes are being held in the auditorium.

You're watching DAYBREAK for a Tuesday. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: There is a state of emergency declared in Taunton, Massachusetts. Taunton is about 33 miles south of Boston. A dam there, the Whittenton Pond Dam, has buckled in some places and there is a danger of its breaking altogether.

Now if it breaks, water could surge into the streets of Taunton, especially the downtown area, and be as deep as six-feet high. Of course that dam damage because of all the rain that we've had in the past several days.

Let's go to reporter Gail Huff from Boston's WCVB.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GAIL HUFF, WCVB-TV REPORTER (on camera): Good morning.

They have extended the state of emergency here in Taunton. There is concern that the Whittenton Pond Dam may break. As many of you know if you've watched over the past couple of days, the dam was buckled. It is a wooden dam, but overnight it showed even more deterioration. That's why they sent even more people out to do some evacuating. So they've evacuated homes all along the Mill River. Now this morning, obviously very concerned about flooding in the Mill River basin and also downtown Taunton.

Routes 44, 140, 138 coming in to Taunton are now closed. We are told that the National Guard has been put on to assist here in case of flooding. Again, they have extended the state of emergency. They have canceled school in Taunton this morning all because of further deterioration to the Whittenton Pond Dam. You're looking here at videotape of that dam.

There are two dams on the Mill River that feed out of Lake Sabbatia. Both of those dams are at risk. But we are about a quarter mile up from the dam that has really been compromised the most. It's down river from here that people are most at risk of very serious flooding.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: That was Gail Huff from WCVB, one of our affiliates in Boston. She's reporting live from Taunton.

You know I want to talk a little bit more about this dam, Chad, because I'm wondering how you could fix it, because wouldn't you have to wait until the water goes down or it stops rushing as fast?

COSTELLO: Yes, but there are other dams possibly upstream that although that they let water out, they could be shut at some point in time. Either manually, if there is a gate, or with a barge or something in front of that dam, something to hold the water from coming through the sloughs. And if the water doesn't get through the sloughs gate, then that entire dam there that's being held back by the wooden dam, that whole lake would basically go away. It would drain down. There would be no pressure on that dam. And then you could either repair it or take it out or replace it, whatever.

COSTELLO: Yes. Well supposedly they were supposed to build some sort of spillway to protect against this very thing. They hadn't built the spillway as of yet. Maybe they will after this -- well this scare is over, we should say.

But again, there is a state of emergency in Taunton, Massachusetts. That's 33 miles south of Boston. The mayor says there is no school. All government offices are closed. All businesses are closed. Some streets are closed. The residents have been urged to evacuate, although, as you know, Chad, some people opt to stay.

MYERS: Always, always. And there are a lot of earthen dams everywhere across the country. And when you get 10 to 12 inches of rain, Carol, those earthen dams are going to be compromised at some point. And you have to always watch them. And that's what the Army Corps of Engineers does. That's their job and they do it well in a lot of spots.

COSTELLO: They certainly do.

We're going to take a short break. We'll be back with more of DAYBREAK after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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