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American Morning

Dam in Danger of Breaking in Taunton, Massachusetts; New Trouble for Harriet Miers

Aired October 18, 2005 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Soledad O'Brien. Breaking news out of Taunton, Massachusetts. This dam is in danger of breaking. Officials say if that happens, it could flood the center of the city. We've got a live report from Taunton straight ahead.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR; I'm Miles O'Brien. A big change overnight for Wilma. It could become a hurricane in just a matter of hours and maybe make a hard right, right into south Florida.

S. O'BRIEN: And new trouble for Harriet Miers. Did the Supreme Court nominee tip her hand on Roe v. Wade? We're watching the fallout, on this AMERICAN MORNING.

Good morning. Welcome, everybody. That situation in Taunton, Massachusetts, really scary.

M. O'BRIEN: Tense times, a city of about 56,000 people. Some have already evacuated, and a tender dam may give way any moment.

S. O'BRIEN: And they've been trying to evacuate those holdouts, and some say they don't want to go. Big, big problem, tense moments, really, as you say. Taunton is just south of Boston, Massachusetts. You know, with the rain that they've gotten there, that water could break right through the dam along the Mill River.

Good morning. Dan Lothian is in Taunton for us this morning. Dan, good morning.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Well, indeed, a potentially dangerous situation, as you mention, south of Boston by about 35 or so miles, standing in front of the Taunton City Hall, which is the sort of command center for this potential disaster. Behind it is the mill river. We're downstream from the 100-year-old wooden dam, and the concern, of course, is that it will give way.

About an hour ago, officials saying that it was already being compromised and that it could buckle at any time. What that would mean is that water would flow into a development there, which would impact about a hundred or so homes and potentially flow right into the downtown area. The other concern is that there is an additional dam as well that officials believe that if that wooden dam gives way, the secondary dam will also give way, creating even more problems.

So some 2,000 people have been strongly urged to evacuate. Some have decide to do stay behind, but officials went door to door this morning with a bullhorn, encouraging folks to get out while they still can. Officials here at city hall saying that in light of the disasters we have seen in the past few months, they don't want to take any chances.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ROBERT NUNES, TAUNTON, MASSACHUSETTS: At about 2:00 a.m., the dam at Whittenton Mills changed. There is additional deterioration to the dam. As I special, the dam is deteriorating. There is an increase of water flow over the last hour.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LOTHIAN: Now, all of the schools in this area have been closed for the day. The downtown area here is also closed. What's going on at this point is that various teams have been activated, on standby, such as dive teams, recovery teams, in case they are needed. And also engineers are still monitoring that dam.

The latest information is that it is starting to let water through. That is both good news and bad news. Bad news because it shows that it continues to be unstable and could crumble any time, but also good news, say engineers, because it could be relieving some of the pressure behind that dam and may prevent it from collapsing altogether -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Dan Lothian, everybody is watching that very closely. Thanks, Dan.

Let's turn now to Southern California. This massive mudslide that took place on Burbank on Monday. It's been raining like crazy there. Residents said the river of mud -- look at that. Look at that! it came through like a freight train. Fortunately, though, police say nobody was hurt. No homes were damaged, though you can see a couple of cars got pounded by the rushing water. So it looks pretty bad there, but I guess it could have been worst.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Let's talk about another storm now. We are talking about the Harriet Miers nomination. Lots of focus now on some words that supposedly took place between Harriet Miers and Senator Arlen Specter. Could be very important to anybody who might be interested in how she might rule, which is pretty much everybody. Of course, they're focusing on Roe v. Wade, if that should come to the court.

Let's get right to our congressional correspondent Ed henry. He's live on Capitol Hill this morning.

Ed, I think it's fair to say, the parsing of words has been so specific and careful in this story, right?

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, absolutely. And after this private meeting yesterday with Harriet Miers, Senator Arlen Specter was unequivocal in telling myself and several other reporters that Harriet Miers told him that the Griswold was correctly decided.

Now what that means, the significance, is that conservatives are very much opposed to the 1965 case, Griswold versus Connecticut, which basically laid the foundation for Roe v. Wade, legalized abortion in America. As you can imagine, the White House was scrambling last night to insist that, in fact, Miers said no such thing to Arlen Specter, and they told me that Arlen Specter would be issuing a correction later last night.

But Specter's office did not actually issue a correction. Instead, they put out a very carefully worded statement, revealing that after he commented to the media about the meeting -- quote -- "Mrs. Miers called him to say that he misunderstood her, and that she had not taken a position on Griswold. Senator Specter accepts Mrs. Miers' statement that he misunderstood what she said." You see, unlike the White House, which insisted she said no such thing, in fact, Specter is saying she said it, I just apparently misunderstood what she said.

Now this episode is raising eyebrows among many conservatives I spoke to late last night. They were telling me they could not understand how Arlen Specter, an expert on constitutional law, who has been through many of the parsing of the words, as you mentioned, in so many of these previous confirmation battles, and somebody who also supports abortion rights, how in the world could he misunderstand what she said on such a significant case?

Former Bush speech writer David Frum, who has come out against this nomination, told me he believes Harriet Miers is trying to have it both ways, that the White House allies are spreading word privately to conservatives like James Dobson if she is on the high court, she will vote to overturn Roe v. Wade, then she is privately telling Arlen Specter, who supports abortion right, just the opposite, and they're having it both ways. Basically another stormy in an already confirmation battle -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Maybe it will get cleared up in the confirmation hearings that will take place eventually. All right, thanks, Ed -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Also in Washington, a case that could get messy, the CIA leak investigation, if it isn't messy already. The grand jury is meeting today. There is word the special prosecutor may be focusing on the role of Vice President Cheney's office, if not the vice president himself.

AMERICAN MORNING's Bob Franken live in Washington with more on all of this. All of a sudden this seems to be turning in the direction of Cheney's office.

Why are we hearing this now, Bob?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've been hearing it all along. Actually there is no all of a sudden to it. This has been quite the focus. We know there has been extensive questioning about the role of the vice president's chief of staff Lewis Scooter Libby. We know from her article on Sunday that "New York Times" reporter Judith Miller talks about her testimony. She says, quote, "Mr. Fitzgerald asked whether Mr. Cheney had known what his chief aide was doing, and saying the answer was no. My interview notes show that Mr. Libby sought from the beginning to insulate his boss."

Now, legal experts who follow these kinds of cases say there is a pattern here, that Fitzgerald, Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor, may be exploring a conspiracy charge, which reads: If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States and one or more of such persons do any act to affect the object of the conspiracy, then each can be charged." What that means is somebody does not necessarily have to actually have committed the crime to be charged under the conspiracy statute -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. Tell us about these conspiracy charges then.

FRANKEN: Let me use a hypothetical. Let's suppose somebody says, I am angry at Mr. Flabitz, I don't care what you do, get them, then the person he tells that goes out and commits a crime. Then the person who said the original thing who had not committed a crime could still be charged under the conspiracy statue. I emphasize, I believe I did use the word hypothetical.

M. O'BRIEN: OK. Bob Franken, thank you very much -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Let's turn to Iraq now, officials have noticed something a little bit strange. They say voter turnout for Saturday's referendum was, quote, "unusually high," and now results are being delayed while possible irregularities are being looked in.

CNN's Aneesh Raman is live with us in Baghdad this morning.

Aneesh, give us some specifics here.

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Soledad, good morning.

The allegations are of voter fraud, but Iraq's electoral commission say it is auditing a number of ballot boxes throughout the country, because is required to do so when a ballot question gets a vote above 90 percent. The charges, though, are that in the Shia, Kurds area people voted multiple times in favor of this draft constitution, sometimes upwards of seven votes from a single person.

Whether or not these charges come out to be true, the implications are incredibly serious. The Sunni minority turned out in large numbers to try to reject the constitution. Expectations were earlier this week that it would pass by a slim majority, that they would live under a constitution that they did not approve. And now, if it seems the constitution was ratified in illegitimate way, it would further isolate the Sunnis from the political process, and bringing them in is always seen as key to bringing stability here. So we wait now for the official word -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: So what happens? Would they have to redo the election if, in fact, it turns out there was voter fraud? RAMAN: These are huge questions that will have to be dealt with. If it does turn out that these the allegations are true, they'll to look at the specific areas, see by what margin these ballot question passed, see whether or not another election would see a wholly different scenario.

But nonetheless, it will further isolate immediately the Sunni community. They will undoubtedly call for another election. Even in doing so, they will say that election will likely be illegitimate, and so it will linger as a legacy perhaps on this permanent government that would come into power in mid-December.

S. O'BRIEN: Aneesh, let me ask you a question about Saddam Hussein's trial, which begins tomorrow. It involves a massacre, but not necessarily the most famous one that we're all aware of, right?

RAMAN: Yes, it happened in 1982, July 8th to be specific, in the northern village of Dujail. Saddam survived an assassination attempt there, and we have rare video that actually shows Saddam arriving in Saddam that fateful morning. You'll see the crowds alongside his convoy. These were orchestrated trips that Saddam often did to showcase that he really a man of the people. The villagers were forced to come out, show allegiance. Dujail was a Shia village, right in the middle of the Sunni Triangle. And it was during that day that he passed through one of the main roads, and six men emerged, fired upon his convoy. Saddam was unhurt, he escaped that assassination attempt, and immediately the interrogations began. Saddam himself questioning people.

Here is some video of Saddam doing just that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): No one's loyalty is taken for granted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAMAN: Now you can understand the fear that were in the eyes of those that were being questioned. Thousands of residents were thrown in jail. Over 140 were killed. I recently went to Dujail and talked with the survivors there. And, Soledad, the reality of what happened is still very palpable today. Almost all of them have one family member who was killed, have a number of them who were tortured and imprisoned. The area where the gunman is shot from is essentially barren. It was wiped out by Saddam.

This case, though, not in terms of numbers, the biggest of the alleged atrocities, but the prosecutors say it is one of the easiest to prove, and that is why it is first -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Aneesh Raman in Baghdad for us. Aneesh, thanks for the update -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: In California, police this morning say they know how Pamela Vitale died, but they don't know who did it. Pamela Vitale is the wife of a prominent lawyer, Daniel Horowitz.

Thelma Gutierrez is live now from the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Officer in Martinez, California.

Thelma, the case is wide open, isn't it?

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it sure is, Miles. And Contra Costa sheriff officials say that they have interviewed a number of people, but so far they have named no suspects in the murder.

Now the latest, autopsy reports have confirmed that 52-year-old Pamela Vitale died as a result of a blood forced trauma to the head. Her husband, defense attorney and TV legal analyst, Daniel Horowitz, had come home about 6:00 p.m. on Saturday night. He discovered his wife's body at the entrance of a mobile home where the couple were temporarily living. He immediately dialed 911.

Now, the couple was living in the mobile home while building a 7,000-square-foot mansion high atop a mountain just east of Oakland.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY LEE, CONTRA COSTA'S SHERIFF'S DEPT.: No one is under arrest. We have nobody in custody right now. This is still a wide- open investigation. We are looking at all possible theories and motives. We're not focused in one area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTIERREZ: Now investigators did say that they did interview one person, a tenant who lived on the property there by the name of Joseph Lynch. Now the couple had petitioned for a restraining order against Lynch about four months ago, saying that they believed he was dangerous.

Horowitz did tell CNN that they did not pursue the TRO, because they believed that this might actually make matters worse with their tenant. Now, CNN contacted Lynch yesterday. Lynch said that any allegations that he might be connected with the murder are absolutely ridiculous, and he told me that he and Pamela Vitale were friends and that he had absolutely nothing to do with this. Also, officials here say that Lynch has been very cooperative, and he is just simply one of many people that they're talking to -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Thelma Gutierrez in Martinez, California, thanks very much.

Still to come in the program, the CIA leak case. Did someone in the White House try to steer "New York Times" reporter Judith Miller's testimony? We'll ask Miller's lawyer about that.

S. O'BRIEN: Also ahead, a he said/she said. Arlen Specter says he knows what Harriet Miers thinks about a controversial court case. Miers says the senator got it wrong. Senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin will weigh in for us. M. O'BRIEN: And a post-9/11 first, private planes returning to Washington's Reagan Airport, just a stone's throw away from the White House and Capitol Hill. We're live ahead on that story on AMERICAN MORNING.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Back now to the CIA leak investigation. It looks like the special prosecutor may be focusing his investigation on Vice President Dick Cheney and his top aides. Joining us this morning from Washington D.C. is Robert Bennett. He's the attorney for the "New York Times" reporter Judith Miller.

Nice to see you again. Thanks for talking with us.

ROBERT BENNETT, ATTORNEY FOR JUDITH MILLER: Good morning.

S. O'BRIEN: Judith Miller has a notebook, and in that notebook is written Valerie Plame. She says now she cannot recall exactly who gave her that name, which is a critical piece of information. How does she explain to you and to everyone why she can't remember this?

BENNETT: Well, you have to see where the name is placed in the book. It's an isolated reference. There's no context to it. We don't know when she put it in there. It could well have been after there was a lot of buzz about who Mr. Wilson's wife was. So her explanation is perfectly credible. And if anybody took the time, which they don't, to focus on where it was in the book, they would understand that Judy is being very honest when she says she doesn't recall.

S. O'BRIEN: Is it possible that more than one source filled her in on Valerie Plame?

BENNETT: Judy does not remember talking to anyone else about it, although she recognizes that once this story started to break, there probably would have been a number of people that would make reference to her in some sense.

I've been through the book word for word. And the only information in the book on this issue is -- involves the source that has become the focus of everyone's attention.

So she's very credible on this point, and her critics just don't know the facts.

S. O'BRIEN: That source, Scooter Libby, in fact, on September 15th, apparently sent a letter to you, and to Judy really.

BENNETT: To Judy.

S. O'BRIEN: Let me read a little bit of what this letter says: "The public report of every other reporter's testimony makes clear that they did not discuss Ms. Plame's name or identity with me." How did you characterize and how did Judy really feel when she got to this part of the letter?

BENNETT: Well, I think we both felt it was a very foolish thing to put in a letter.

S. O'BRIEN: What do you mean?

BENNETT: Well, I mean, I would never permit a client to put something like that in a letter, and I don't know that his lawyer even knew he was writing that in a letter. It sort of put us on the spot for the precise reason we're talking about it.

Once Judy got the personal waiver from Mr. Libby, she was going to go and tell the truth, no matter what the consequences.

S. O'BRIEN: So you saw that part of the letter as almost like, maybe threat's too strong of a word, but pushing in a certain direction for her testimony?

BENNETT: You know, I think you're going to have to ask Mr. Libby why he put it in. You know, another explanation is -- I don't know if this is accurate -- is he could of felt that there was nothing to hide and, Judy, you should go forward and testify.

Remember, he did not identify Mr. Wilson's wife in Judy's conversations by name, nor did he suggest to her that she was a covert agent.

So -- but I'm not comfortable interpreting something that Mr. Libby wrote. We were -- we didn't like receiving that in the letter. We thought it complicated things. We thought it was somewhat presumptuous that he would start characterizing what he thought she would testify to, but we really didn't draw any conclusions beyond that.

S. O'BRIEN: We started this morning by talking about reports that say there is a focus on the vice president and some of his aides today. Do you think if anybody was going to be indicted, couldn't they have already been indicted, I mean, well before the grand jury is dismissed?

BENNETT: Well, prosecutors don't usually indict -- and I was one, a federal prosecutor -- they don't usually indict before the grand jury expires. They usually take the full time of the grand jury. So no, I'm not surprised at all, and I don't know that there will be indictments. It's -- Mr. Fitzgerald, to his credit, is keeping this very tight to the chest and is not talking about it.

S. O'BRIEN: Bob Bennett is the attorney for Judith Miller of "The New York Times."

Thank you for talking to us. Appreciate it.

BENNETT: You're welcome. S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning,another case of red tape, tying Katrina victims up in knots. We're going to tell you just how many Small Business Administration loans have been approved so far. That number might shock you. Andy's up next with that. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Federal foibles post-Katrina continue. Andy Serwer here tracking the Small Business Administration. When last we spoke about this particular agency, all of one loan had been approved. Actually they hadn't even cut the check.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: And now we're up to how many?

SERWER: We're up to 58 checks.

M. O'BRIEN: Fifty-eight out of how many applications?

SERWER: Fifty-three thousands.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, and here's the application. Andy has the application here.

SERWER: I printed that out. It's 19 pages of gobbledy-gook, it really is.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, I mean, I think a lot of small business people see this and say, you know, I'm going to do a root canal instead.

SERWER: Yes, or go bankrupt. It's very difficult stuff. We did talk about this. It was September 30th, Miles, when we checked in with the SBA where they had cut that one check. The SBA on their Web site says they like to get this relief out within seven to 21 days of an application. Let's not forget that Hurricane Katrina came at the end of august. It is now October 18th. That's a long time.

Loan applications, 53,000. Approved, 1,049. Checks sent, 58 total for $533,000. That's how much.

They're requiring three years of tax returns and a title search. Obviously, so many of these business owners don't have that.

And they released this from the SBA yesterday. I really enjoyed this. This came from them. "We've decided to have a new expedited process for disaster loans under a hundred thousand that can meet specific criteria." This is opposed to unexpedited disaster loans, I guess, which is what they typically do.

So the SBA, when we asked them before who this loan went out to, they didn't know and they never returned our calls, so we're still waiting on them for that.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's get back on them.

SERWER: We will.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, Andy Serwer, thank you very much.

SERWER: You're welcome.

M. O'BRIEN: Still to come on the program, take a look at this. That's what you call a private aircraft there, on a runway. Is that news? Well, it's where it is that counts. This is a turning point in aviation security. We'll tell you why that's a big deal in Washington, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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