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CNN Live At Daybreak

Hurricane Wilma Upgraded to Category 5; Saddam Hussein on Trial

Aired October 19, 2005 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: It is Wednesday, October 19. It's a day many Iraqis thought they would never see, but now that day has come. Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator for decades, but this morning he is a defendant.
ANNOUNCER: From the Time Warner Center in New York, this is DAYBREAK with Carol Costello and Chad Myers.

COSTELLO: Good morning to you. We'll get right to the Saddam Hussein trial in just a moment.

But first, Hurricane Wilma upgraded overnight to a Category 5. You heard it right, a Category 5 storm.

Let's get right to the forecast center and Chad.

Oh, you're kidding.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: No, Category 5 now. It starts at 155, Carol. They found hurricane-force winds inside a very small two- mile-wide eye there at 175 a few hours ago. Then they just found 166 a little bit ago as they flew right across and the through the center of that eye itself.

Notice the storm hasn't moved very much. Yesterday we were talking how the center of the storm was right under the "C" in Caribbean. It's only moved about this much. So if that's one day, that's one day, that's one day, here's another day, and then it starts to pick up speed as it moves on up into the westerly winds that are through parts of the Gulf of Mexico.

But here is the forecast. It is forecast to stay a Category 5 for a while. And storms have a very hard time maintaining this type of speed and this type of pressure for a long time. They get replacement cycle eye walls, and they start to get bigger eye walls.

This is literally the ice skater with one foot on the ground, arms completely in, going as fast as possible. Even the hurricane center says we do not expect any further strengthening. No further strengthening is probably even possible with this storm.

This is maximum what this storm can be. And for this late in the season, this is a very large storm. Rarely can we get a storm this large, this late. Maximum sustained winds, though, 175. And if you're writing it down, 17.2 and 82.5. If you remember 17.2, I said that number two days ago. Forty- eight hours ago the storm was at the same latitude. It actually took a dive to the south, and now it's coming back up. And as it moves off to the west, it's going to make a very close brush on Cancun, across the Grand Cayman islands, right over Pinar del Rio, into Mexico, and then you see that turn that we really don't even want to talk about. But it does look like landfall somewhere along the western Florida coast, possibly the Florida Keys.

Not out of the question that this storm doesn't turn harder and go through the Florida Straits and through the Bahamas. That would be a glancing blow, but a glance from a 4 or a 5 is still a pretty big hit.

So folks along the Florida coast need to pay attention to this storm probably for landfall on Saturday -- Carol.

COSTELLO: I think people have already gone to the grocery store, and they're buying extra water. And it's just -- you know, if you live in Florida, you just must be scratching your head and in a state of disbelief this morning.

MYERS: In a state of disbelief that this thing went from basically an 80-mile-per-hour putser (ph) yesterday, to 175 miles per hour overnight, yes. And that's a Hurricane Hunter in the storm. This is not an estimate.

You know, like the estimate of your gas bill and you don't really know whether you used it or not, this is a plane in there. And it measured it, and for a time they measured the lower pressure ever in the Atlantic Basin for a hurricane.

Now, they have to calibrate that number to make sure it was right. But even Mitch was not as low of a pressure as this storm is right now. And that was one of the biggest storms on record ever.

COSTELLO: All right. We'll get back to you. Thank you, Chad.

MYERS: You're welcome.

COSTELLO: Stay tuned day and night to CNN, your hurricane headquarters.

Some of the stories we're following this morning, you saw this dramatic emergency landing of a JetBlue plane with its nose gear stuck in a 90-degree angle last month. Now you can hear the audiotapes between the air traffic controllers and the amazingly calm pilot.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TOWER: JetBlue 292 has got a problem here.

PILOT: We're declaring an emergency in Palmdale.

PILOT: The gear is not retracting. We have 145 on board.

PILOT: We do request emergency equipment to be standing by at this time. This is an inbound emergency aircraft.

TOWER: LA 2-5 left, clear to land.

PILOT: Clear to land, 2-5 left, JetBlue 292.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Oh, I want them to fly my plane. Of course, as you know, those pilots landed the plane safely at Los Angeles International Airport. One hundred forty-five people were on board, no one got hurt. And the pilots got, well, what you could call a standing ovation.

A terror threat in Baltimore led to the temporary closing of two downtown tunnels. Federal agents are questioning several people in connection with that threat. The suspected plot to bomb the tunnels had been under investigation for at least two weeks.

Schools in Taunton, Massachusetts, closed again today. Downtown also off limits while city officials watch a wooden dam that's threatening to break apart. Water levels have now stabilized, but city leaders say it's still too soon to know when people can return to their homes.

Another scare for refugees in earthquake-ravaged Pakistan this morning. Two moderate quakes shook northern Pakistan just 10 days after a massive quake killed tens of thousands. No reports of injuries or damage from the latest quakes.

Our top story this morning is in Iraq. Saddam Hussein's trial is expected to get under way any minute now. The proceedings are taking place in Baghdad's fortress-like Green Zone compound amid unprecedented security.

Hussein and seven of his former regime members are charged with crimes against humanity, but it's all happening way too fast for Hussein's lawyer, who says he'll seek a three-month delay. The trial's being conducted in Arabic, and we're getting the courtroom action on a 30-minute tape delay.

Octavia Nasr is CNN's senior editor for Arab affairs. She's at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta to talk about the impact of this trial on the Arab world.

Good morning, Octavia.

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR, ARAB AFFAIRS: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Of course we were expecting this trial to start sometime between 2:00 and 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time, but who knows why the delay.

NASR: No one knows why the delay. A lot of secrecy around this trial. We're not getting too much information.

But as you said, we believe the trial is going to start any minute now. And we will be getting a tape of the first 30 minutes as soon as those 30 minutes end. So we all are waiting, and we will bring that to our viewers as soon as we get it, of course.

COSTELLO: So from your observations, what are people in Iraq and other Arab nations doing?

NASR: Look, there's no doubt that for the Arab world that this is the trial of the century. Whether you are supportive of -- a supporter of Saddam Hussein or an opponent of Saddam Hussein, you do believe that this is the trial of the century.

A lot of questions around whether this trial is going to be fair. But also, a lot of cheering around just putting this man on trial. People can't believe their eyes.

You watch Al-Arabiya, the new Iraqi TV, and you can hear the anchors, the reporters, just disbelief. You know, not believing that the former dictator is going to be tried on crimes that he committed.

COSTELLO: You talk a little bit about whether people would think this was fair. This whole process is something new for the Iraqi people and for the Arab world. They've never seen a proceeding quite like this.

NASR: They've never seen anything quite like this. I think the closest they've gotten were the trial of Milosevic in The Hague. And that was a bit different from this -- the Saddam Hussein case, of course.

This is the big story. That's how it's being described, the first Arab leader to face charges for crimes he committed when he was ruling a country.

Actually, Al-Arabiya Television is calling their coverage -- they're saying not just Saddam Hussein is on trial, his entire era is going to be on trial. Very interesting to read between the lines and also to watch Arab television at this time, because this is a time of truth for them. You know, they're looking at this as a first, but perhaps also a changing force in their world.

COSTELLO: You know, I'm wondering, this proceeding will be much different from what goes on in an American courtroom. The presiding judge in this case will have extreme power. He will be able to grant permission to Saddam Hussein to speak, perhaps. And I would suspect that people in Iraq want to hear him speak.

I mean, what will that be like for them?

NASR: Well, many people want to hear him speak. But I have to tell you, in Iraq, if you watch the Iraqi television, if you listen to people on the street, there are more people who want to see him hang than speak in the courtroom.

It's amazing how people are starting to come out and express their opinions, express their feelings toward Saddam Hussein. There was a period of time where they were in disbelief. Some people even thought that he might come back to power. So they were scared to speak.

But now you see it in newspapers, you hear it on television. You know, people are demonstrating in the streets, saying, "Hang him. Hang him."

They don't care so much to hear from him. They just want to see justice served at this point.

But you're right when you describe the courtroom as different from what we're used to here in the United States. This is a totally different courtroom. You don't have a jury there. You don't have cross-examination.

So the drama is taken out of the courtroom. You don't have the drama that you see in the court system here in this country. For example, you have a presiding judge, as you said, who is the boss. He basically gives permission for people to speak.

So Saddam Hussein has the right to ask for the floor. But we don't know if the judge is going to grant him that or not. But some people say that he will get the floor, and people expect him to explode, they expect him to do the same thing that we saw previously in a hearing, in an investigative hearing, basically challenge the judge, challenge the court, call himself the president of Iraq, and basically just put on a show.

COSTELLO: Yes, and that's where the drama will come in. Octavia, you stick around.

We're going to head live to Baghdad and check in with CNN's Aneesh Raman.

Aneesh, is there any sense that Saddam Hussein has been transported to the courtroom yet?

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we understand, Carol, from speaking to our own Christiane Amanpour, who is here, who is in the building where the courtroom is, that the reporters will only be brought in once Saddam is seated. They will not witness Saddam being walked in.

We also understand they have left the filing center. So we clearly are just moments away from this trial beginning.

We spoke to Christiane Amanpour earlier. She mentioned the security that you alluded to, massive. U.S. marshals in charge of it. They said that "It would be harder to get into this courtroom than it would to the White House today."

That is how extensive the security is. Two rings of fortified concrete walls around the building that houses this courtroom. We also understand a better sense of how the courtroom itself is laid out.

We alluded to the presiding judge. His name is Rizgar Mohammed Amein. He is one of five judges, the chief among them of this trial. To his right, and to the judges' right, is where the prosecution will be seated. There are six seats there. The name of the chief prosecutor is Jafar Al Moussaoui (ph).

In front of the judges is where some five clerks will be sitting. And then to their left, closest to the judge, is the seat where witnesses will testify. And then beyond that are 16 seats for the defense attorneys.

Now, we spoke last night to Khalil Dulaimi, Saddam Hussein's attorney. He said that Saddam was in good spirits, was expecting, of course, to be found innocent of all these charges.

We also asked him if Saddam Hussein would make a statement. Dulaimi said it was within his rights to do so, but it would of course be up to the judges as to whether that would be allowed.

Now, our understanding of what will likely take place today is that the judges will read the charges that Saddam and the seven other defendants face. Those include crimes against humanity for what took place in 1982 in that northern village of Dujail. In July that year, Saddam escaped an assassination attempt, had thousands of residents thrown in jail. Many were tortured, at least 143 were killed.

We then think that Saddam and perhaps the other defendants will acknowledge the charges. And then, as we've mentioned before, his lawyer will immediately put forward at least a three-month delay, a request for that based on the fact that he has had -- has not had enough time to review the evidence.

Also, all those involved in this process -- and we've mentioned how new this is for Iraq -- all of those involved are Iraq. The judges have had training outside of this country. The defense lawyers will bring that up as an issue. They will say they need training elsewhere as well in order to be at par with the proceedings -- Carol.

COSTELLO: A couple of questions for you, Aneesh. We will be able to hear what the judge says on this taped delay because we won't actually see the proceedings live because it's on a 30-minute tape delay. But will the judges' faces be obscured, or will they appear full-faced?

RAMAN: As far as we know now -- and my understand is that we will see the judges. We've only been given the name of the presiding judge. So it could be that he is maybe the only one we will see.

We don't know what else we'll be allowed to see in the courtroom. Of course no witnesses expected to testify today. That has been an issue, whether witnesses' faces would be shown -- Carol.

COSTELLO: The other question is, where is Saddam Hussein's family? I know his daughters are in Amman, Jordan. Will they be watching the trial from there? And are there, I guess, many friends of Saddam Hussein inside the courtroom watching the proceedings?

RAMAN: Well, as far as we understand, inside the courtroom is the press, is human rights representatives of various human rights organizations, two high-level aides to the country's prime minister, Ibrahim al-Jaafari. Also, Ahmed Chalabi. Americans will remember him. He is in the courtroom as well.

We don't think that there are any full representatives of Saddam Hussein. I'm not aware, though. And we'll hear from Christiane later in the day the better sense of who is present.

His daughters, we're not sure yet if they plan to watch. These proceedings, as you mentioned, will be broadcast at a 30-minute delay from as they actually happen in the courtroom. So we'll have to see whether or not we're able to see who else is in the courtroom, besides the defendants, the prosecutors and the judges -- Carol.

COSTELLO: And as far as preparing his defense, did Saddam Hussein have a large part in that? Or is he leaving most of it up to his lawyers?

RAMAN: Well, his lawyer did say that he consulted with Saddam. He spoke of their strategy last night, which interestingly enough, Carol, will focus not just on the legitimacy of this court, but according to Dulaimi will also focus on the legitimacy of the process by which it was created, namely the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

They will bring up instances in Falluja, in Najaf, where they say the U.S. military led to civilian casualties. In this trial it is unclear exactly how specific they will get.

We also asked Dulaimi if he would bring up past interactions with the U.S. He said that they would not in this first trial. Instead, they would focus on the case at hand, which is namely Dujail.

We do not know to exactly what extent Saddam was involved. One can imagine only that he was kept abreast, of course, of all the developments -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, from what I understand, the defense attorney will also bring up Iraq as under occupation now by U.S. forces. And perhaps there is no law under which Saddam Hussein can be legitimately tried.

RAMAN: Exactly. I mean, Saddam Hussein says he is exonerated from any charges because he feels he is not only still the president of Iraq, but the former Iraqi laws are still in place which excuse him from any essentially wrongdoing.

And a lot of Iraqis have said that the best might be to wait for this trial until this constitution takes place, until there is an Iraqi law under which this trial is happening. This of course -- the statute for the Iraqi special tribunal was originated by the CPA, the Coalition Provisional Authority, led by Paul Bremer immediately after the fall of Saddam Hussein.

There is a statute, though, that is in place. It was passed by Iraq's transitional national assembly. So it essentially is endorsed, if not rewritten a bit by Iraq's governing -- governing politicians at the moment.

But a lot of Iraqis had said that that was a concern, that it was best to perhaps wait until next year. That, of course, balanced, Carol, by the very urgent desire among the vast many Iraqis who want to see Saddam Hussein face justice as quickly as humanly possible -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Aneesh Raman reporting live from Baghdad. And I know you're going to stick around for us. So we'll get back to you.

And as you heard Aneesh say, Christiane Amanpour is inside the courtroom. And she's going to call us when she can, because as you might imagine, security is very tight inside the courtroom. She has to leave the courtroom in order to call us, and I believe she has to be escorted out each time.

So when we get Christiane on the phone, of course we'll -- we'll get her to you as soon as we can.

Mike Newton teaches law at Vanderbilt University. He helped the Iraqis establish the special tribunal. He also helped lead the training in international criminal law for Iraqi judges and remains an advisor to the tribunal. He joins us from the Vanderbilt campus in Nashville, Tennessee.

Good morning, sir.

MIKE NEWTON, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: So, all the work you've done on this, and all the teaching you've done, to see it actually be put into place this morning, what goes through your mind?

NEWTON: Well, it's a red letter day both for the rule of law and for the people of Iraq. And particularly for those who have, in some cases, given their lives to see this come about.

COSTELLO: I would suspect for the presiding judge in this case this is a nervous time, a proud time. I mean, what is going through his mind?

NEWTON: Well, I think you have to understand, these are patriotic people. These are patriots who have really put their lives on the line to see that the rule of law is demonstrated to the Iraqi people and to the broader Arab world.

I think he's focused on the job at hand. He's focused on the rules and on the elements of crimes and on the job he's got to have at hand. I think he's very focused on that.

COSTELLO: But just the measures he must have gone to, to protect his own life to be able to do this, I mean, that's going above and beyond.

NEWTON: Well, as I say, these are patriots who have -- who have sacrificed. They've been in personal danger themselves. They've seen colleagues and translators and other people as part of this process under great threat.

If you remember, just last year a judge was murdered, along with his son. So these are people who have really, really demonstrated their belief in the rule of law and their dedication.

One judge told me one time that they want this trial to be the doorway through which this body of law is transmitted to the broader Arab world.

COSTELLO: Tell us about the proceeding itself, because it will be very unlike a trial here in the United States. What is the process that we'll see today?

NEWTON: Their process is built on what's called an inquisitorial model, which is focused as we -- we have an adversarial model, where a defense and a prosecution do battle, and the judge is sort of the neutral arbiter. The inquisitorial process is much more truth-based from early on.

So there's an investigative judge, and everything that that investigative judge has been able to assemble about the case has already been provided both to the judges and to the defense attorneys. So, as was commented, there's a little bit less heat and light and smoke at the moment.

COSTELLO: Well, you know, Saddam's defense attorney saying that he was just informed that this proceeding would take place three weeks ago, he has not had time to prepare.

Do you believe that?

NEWTON: Well, the -- the packet of defense materials was signed for by a member of the defense team in August of this year. As I understand it, there was a lot of turbulence on the defense team. And you may recall that Saddam actually fired his lead attorney and named Khalil Dulaimi.

So, within the inner workings of the defense team, where the information goes and where the packets go, those are a matter for the defense. It's very clear that if Mr. Dulaimi feels unprepared he has every right to ask for an extension to be better prepared, which, you know, we'll see -- we'll see how judges rule.

COSTELLO: Well, that certainly happens in American courtrooms every day.

NEWTON: It sure does.

COSTELLO: The other thing, the judge will probably read the charges against Saddam Hussein. Many people are waiting to see whether Saddam Hussein will be able to speak. Is that -- would that be something that we'll hear today?

NEWTON: Possible. I would think not likely. There is a specific rule -- remember, it's not just Saddam, of course. There are seven other co-accused in this particular case, as was pointed out. So if everyone spoke, there would be a long delay and really no purpose served by doing that.

Having said that, there is a specific Iraqi rule of criminal procedure that prohibits people accused from speaking in undue length or about extraneous matters, or raising allegations against other persons who are not there to defend themselves. So there's a specific rule of criminal procedure for them that keeps it on focus.

COSTELLO: Oh, but wait, Mike. You remember the last time Saddam Hussein was in court. He just took it away. He said whatever he wanted to, and he seemed to have free reign. So how would the judge reign him in, in case that happens again?

NEWTON: Well, that was really an early pretrial motion in front of the investigative judge. And that was simply a hearing to -- with one investigative judge. This is a slightly different context, because this is the real trial with the full panel of judges. And there's business at hand.

At the earlier investigative hearing it was simply one investigative judge whose job was to find the truth, to interview Saddam, to have a back and forth with Saddam. That's not the purpose of this hearing today.

COSTELLO: Well, I'm just trying to figure out if Saddam -- well, Saddam Hussein thinks he's still the president of the country, right?

NEWTON: Yes.

COSTELLO: Still the leader. So perhaps he'll act like that, perhaps he'll take it away. I mean, how can you keep him quiet? I mean, can we expect them to take him from the courtroom in cuffs?

NEWTON: It's possible. I don't think it's likely, because I don't think the judges will let it get that out of control.

Again, the purpose today is to begin the trial process in a very focused way, to read the charges, not just against Saddam, but against all the accused. And to begin an orderly trial process.

It's interesting that, you know, there are a lot of people, pundits out there, who've said, well, this is a show trial. I think it's important that the judges maintain control in order to prevent the defense from making it into a circus or a show trial.

COSTELLO: Mike Newton, I know you'll stick around. Mike Newton from Vanderbilt University, joining us live from Nashville, Tennessee, this morning. We'll get back to you, sir. Thank you.

NEWTON: OK. Thank you.

COSTELLO: For more information on Saddam Hussein's trial, be sure to log onto our Web site, CNN.com. There you'll find details on the charges and an inside look at Hussein's regime from the pages of "TIME" magazine. All that at CNN.com/Saddam.

Still to come on DAYBREAK, a look at the markets, including oil prices. Plus, more coverage of the Saddam Hussein trial.

But first, here's a look at what else is making news this Wednesday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: International markets, well, they're lower across the board this morning. Take a look at that.

Tokyo's Nikkei down 222 points. The London FTSE lower by 45. The German DAX down 66.

In futures trading, oil is down a dime, at $63.10 a barrel this morning.,

All right. We understand that the Saddam Hussein trial has begun. Remember I was telling you that the -- it's on a 30-minute delay. Well, the 30-minute delay has happened, and we're able to see the first frames of that tape, so let's head to the tape right now.

The tape is not ready. I'm sorry.

So the trial has just begun. In 17 minutes -- is that correct -- we'll be able to see the first frames of that tape. I apologize to you.

So our coverage of Saddam Hussein's trial does continue. At 5:40 you'll be able to see from inside that very secure courtroom the proceedings.

Want to talk right now, though, about Hurricane Wilma, because it has now been upgraded to a Category 5 hurricane, and people in Florida, well, they're very nervous this morning.

So Chad, tell us more.

MYERS: It probably won't stay at a Category 5 the entire time, Carol.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COSTELLO: All right. We'll get back to you.

We're going to take a short break. And we're going to have more on the Saddam Hussein trial. And, of course, more on Hurricane Wilma.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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