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American Morning

Saddam on Trial; Iraqis Around the World Watch Court Proceedings

Aired October 19, 2005 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(WEATHER REPORT)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The trial of Saddam Hussein underway and then postponed. And update on that, as well, as we continue right here on a special edition of AMERICAN MORNING. A short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. It's the bottom of the hour. 8:30 here on the East Coast, 5:30 West Coast. And we just saw really a remarkable scene unfold in a Baghdad courtroom, inside the so-called green zone with security which rivals the kind of security you'd see around the White House in the United States.

Saddam Hussein and seven co-defendants went on trial. Hussein began very defiant and really remained defiant through much of the proceedings, indicating he still, in his mind, is the president of the Republic of Iraq. And also offered a plea to the judge on the charges which he faces, which relate to a 1982 incident in the town of Dujail, a Shiites enclave where upwards of 146, 150 men and boys were tortured and then hung.

Let's listen to his plea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, are you guilty or innocent?

SADDAM HUSSEIN, DEFENDANT (through translator): I said what I said and I'm not guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: Not guilty and not guilty were the pleas leveled by the other seven defendants, some of them high-ranking members of Saddam Hussein's regime, others low-ranking people who are Baath party officials, however, in that Dujail region and thus are a part of this whole indictment.

Let's take a look at some new tape which is just coming in. This is Saddam Hussein toward the tail end of this first session addressing the judge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HUSSEIN (through translator): ... the court should not take them. You can listen to follow up and investigate further. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: That clearly was the tail end of his address to the judge. We'll try to rewind that and get that for you in its entirety.

The judge in this case, who is an ethnic Kurd, Judge Amein, Rigzar Mohammed Amein, who is trained by American lawyers, a couple of whom we've been speaking with all morning long here. Was chosen for his even-keeled temperament, and he's put that on display today, even though he's been challenged repeatedly by Saddam Hussein, even over such mundane matters as could we see your identification. Saddam Hussein saying you know who I am. And the judge sidestepping the issue and moving on. So, clearly, he's walking a tight rope here, as we've said repeatedly.

By the way, what we just see now is, 30 minutes ago, the adjournment that we've been telling you about. And that's a key point. The defense attorneys for Saddam Hussein had requested an adjournment, upwards of 90 days. They got, I think, give or take about 45 days. November 28th is when we'll see Saddam Hussein and those seven others back in the courtroom, as they have some time to assess the evidence in this particular case.

I want to show you, just because it's difficult to know who is who as we show you that picture of the three-tiered dock there, that caged dock where defendants are. Wanted to give you kind of a program, if you will, of who is who here. Front and right, that's Saddam Hussein, of course. And he needs really no introduction, I guess, at this point.

To the right of him is a judge, a former judge under the Baath regime, Awad Bandar. And Awad Bandar is accused of actually meeting out the sentences of 143 of the Dujail people who were tortured and actually put to death.

Number four, Abdullah Ruwayyid. Abdullah Ruwayyid, local Baath party official, a Dujail resident. He was responsible for the Dujail area, where those villagers were massacred. And he is the father of the man seated to his right, Mizhar Ruwayyid. Mizhar Ruwayyid is a former Dujail Baath party official, as well, also responsible for people that part of the world.

And here's a little bigger fish here. Here is the Taha Yassin Ramadan, the former vice president of Iraq, former leader of the popular army here. And is implicated in other crimes, and we'll be seeing him again. Reported leader of the military action to crush the Shia uprising in southern Iraq in '91, immediately following the first Gulf War.

Upper right-hand portion of your screen, number six, Barzan Hasan. Another bigger fish here, half-brother to Saddam Hussein, head of the secret police, commanded forces that descended on Dujail as part of that retribution campaign for that assassination attempt that occurred there. And we will see him on trial for other cases, including the 1983 disappearance of thousands of members of the Barzani (ph) clan.

Number seven on this is Ayad Dayim Ali. Ayad Dayim Ali is somebody who is probably lower ranking in all of this and is a former Dujail Baath party official in that region. And then finally here, number eight, Mohammed Azawi Ali is a farmer who was in that region and is implicated, as well.

So that gives you a sense of who the players are in this particular trial. As we say, this is just one of a dozen cases which are sort of in the docket, in the system there. This one in particular, when you look at the other cases, if just you measured it by sheer numbers, is not one of the larger cases. And that is precisely why we're seeing it first.

This is, as you saw, lots of technical difficulties just getting this thing going. Just to get the sound system right. And so the strategy of starting with a smaller case may prove to be the wise one.

S. O'BRIEN: More manageable, more documentation, potentially, in this case. And as you well know, in the wake of the fall of the regime of Saddam Hussein, it's really opened the doors and opened the way for people who have been collecting evidence and documenting atrocities against the regime.

One of those men is Kanan Makiya of the Iraq Memory Foundation and he has been watching this trial as it begun -- as it began, and also as it was put on hold as well. Good morning. Thanks for talking with us. Give me a sense of your first thoughts when you saw Saddam Hussein in a pen along with his co-defendants?

KANAN MAKIYA, IRAQ MEMORY FOUNDATION: Well, it was a remarkable moment, one almost difficult to put into words. The sight of the man, close-up, there is shuffle with the guards that took place. This is a truly historic moment, and the opening shot in something that promises to be very large and of great consequence to the whole region.

S. O'BRIEN: Some people have said it's potentially a purple finger moment, meaning it's going to have that momentum and that definitive feel, as we saw in the elections as well. Do you agree with that?

MAKIYA: I very much hope and pray that it will turn out that way. Much depends, of course, on the full -- of the way in which the whole set of atrocity that the regime committed, how these are brought up. We only have a very small case here, as you've already pointed out. But the Dujail case -- it seems to me very important that the nature of the regime be exposed through this series of trials. And doing that requires a comprehensive view of the Karak (ph) system that was installed in place. Now, how that's going to be achieved by little trials on separate issues is something we have yet to see.

S. O'BRIEN: You've been collecting, as we mention in your introduction, and documenting evidence of the crimes that the regime really did upon the citizens of Iraq. Are -- is some of the evidence that you've collected going to be used in this specific trial focusing on the Dujail massacre?

MAKIYA: Most of the work we've done was on the Imfaal (ph) case. The Dujail has not appeared in the documents that we have studied.

S. O'BRIEN: So when you talk about your -- the nature of the regime being revealed, are you concerned by the focus on a small and what seems to be manageable case to begin with, that potentially you could -- the bigger atrocities could be lost?

MAKIYA: I understand the desire to start with something manageable, especially in an event of such magnitude, as you slowly work up the logistical details and sort out the problems of how the event is going to be state-managed, in a sense.

But we have to remember that this was a regime that terrorized 25 million people for the better part of 30 years. And many people were implicated in these crimes. And there are sort of layers and layers of complicity involved here. Targeting the top officials and even starting with them is somewhat jumping the gun, or putting the cart before the horse. We need a buildup of the entire system of crimes that led finally -- that were finally authorized by the people in court today.

S. O'BRIEN: It sounds like you're saying you're fearful that, first of all, some people will go without paying for their crimes. And secondly, that theoretically, Saddam Hussein could be put to death but never really pay for some of the crimes that he has committed and, I guess, leaving some of the victims without having a resolution at the end of the day? Is that your fear?

MAKIYA: What's more important is him being put to death or not is that the regime that he created and that created him is exposed for the region to see, for the whole Arab world, for the people of Iraq, and that is a regime much larger than the person himself.

S. O'BRIEN: Kanan Makiya, as we mentioned, has been collecting and documenting evidence of the torture and crimes of the Saddam Hussein regime. Thank you for talking with us. And I know over the next month and probably years we will be discussing this case and talking about some of the evidence that you have. Appreciate that.

MAKIYA: Thank you.

(NEWSBREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, we are going to check in on our two top stories once again. We've got Hurricane Wilma, now a category five, went from category one to category five very quickly.

And the Saddam Hussein trial, again, really remarkable, as Saddam Hussein on trial confronts the judges in front of him and also enters a plea of not guilty.

Ahead this morning, a profile of the man who struck fear in the hearts of so many.

We're back in a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Iraqis around the world watching Saddam Hussein's every move in court. For those whose loved ones were killed during Hussein's regime, it will be an emotional experience, certainly, and that's what AMERICAN MORNING's Kelly Wallace discovered at a mosque in Queens, New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Queens, at this Shia Muslim mosque, where 100 of the 5,000 members are from Iraq, we met Abdul Jabbar, who told us when he was 19 years old, his father was executed by Saddam Hussein's regime.

ABDUL JABBAR, FATHER KILLED IRAQ: Every time I talk about it, I feel like I'm going to cry any minute. So it really has been over 20 years, but the way it ended, and the way it ended for me is that the way it ended for me was not right.

WALLACE: The father of two, who came to the U.S. for school in 1980, says he will be thinking about his father a lot as he watches the former Iraqi dictator stand trial for the very first time.

JABBAR: I'm sure the emotion will come back but, you know, God willing, that this will, hopefully, they did not go for no good reason. Hopefully, this will help put a new chapter in Iraq, have these people actually live in peace for a change.

WALLACE: The director of the mosque also comes from Iraq, and also has a tragic story to tell. Shaikh Fadhel Al-Sahlani says more than 25 members of his extended family were killed during Saddam's reign.

(on camera): Did you ever think this day would come that you would see Saddam Hussein on trial?

FADHEL AL-SAHLANI, IMAM AL-KHOEI ISLAMIC CENTER: Not really.

WALLACE: Al Sahlani says his faith does not allow him to seek revenge. Instead, he says, he is looking for justice.

AL-SAHLANI: I keep this picture always with me.

WALLACE (on camera): Oh!

AL-SAHLANI: And I sometimes I just look to it and see the life, how it has been changed to this man. It is a lesson to anyone who misused the power. This man, he misused the power, and this is the reason.

WALLACE (voice-over): A conviction and a death penalty, he says, would bring grieving Iraqis enormous relief, but would it help bring an end to the insurgency? Jabbar says he doesn't know.

JABBAR: Hopefully, the, you know, people will come to their senses. I mean, that's what we're hopeful for. Is that going to happen? Nobody knows.

WALLACE: Holding out hope for a peaceful Iraq and the end of an era...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Goodbye, Saddam!

WALLACE: ... that caused so much pain.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: The trial got under way, and then put on hold until November 28th, which is when we expect to see Saddam Hussein back in court. That delay is what his lawyers asked for.

A short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. More now on Saddam Hussein on trial. He was in court today. You can see there in the pictures, as Saddam Hussein earlier this morning entered this penned-in area where he was being held in front of five judges hearing his case. Also, off to the side, out of the camera range, the prosecutors, the defense attorneys, who, at some points, began arguing with the judge.

Saddam Hussein in court, calm here, but at one point involved in a little bit of a shoving match with some of his guards, as they tried to escort him out. And he apparently did not want to be escorted. He -- this is the first public reading of the charges against Saddam Hussein and his seven co-defendants. His plea was entered, as well. His plea was not guilty, as it was with the co-defendants also.

Dr. Jerrold Post is a former CIA political profiler. He's the author of "Leaders and Their Followers in a Dangerous World," and he joins us this morning from our Washington, D.C. bureau.

Thank you for talking with us.

DR. JERROLD POST, FMR. CIA POLITICAL PROFILER: Pleasure.

S. O'BRIEN: What do you make of the appearance? Saddam Hussein's first time that we've seen him in court in a while. Smiling, seemed at times calm, a little more agitated at other times. What did you think?

POST: I was quite impressed that it was quite predictable that he would be in his sort of default position in his political psychology, namely that defiant Saddam who, at first, spoke about the illegitimacy of the so-called court, anything that came from aggression. And he's already beginning to put the United States on trial as not legitimate.

This is a man who we saw very briefly, when he came out of that spider hole in the mud hut when he was captured -- we saw that underlying broken self. But throughout his career, we've seen in place both this very grandiose Saddam and the Saddam in that psychological siege state. And that I think is quite predictable, that is the posture he'll hold to. He watched Milosevic for two years and will do his best to emulate that path.

S. O'BRIEN: You can see a -- sort of a power struggle going on between Saddam Hussein and the judge, who is trying to maintain control of the courtroom. And he made a point of underscoring that he is still, in his mind, the current president of Iraq. You have said that he's the most traumatized leader that you have profiled. What do you mean by that? Why does that mean in a profile?

POST: Well, in his case, the trauma started literally before birth. His father died during his mother's pregnancy with him, as did her first-born son. She both tried to commit suicide and abort herself with the pregnancy. When Saddam was born, would not accept her newborn son in her arms. He was raised for the first two years away from her. And when he came back, when the mother remarried, the new stepfather, both physically and psychologically abused Saddam, severely.

However, at age eight, he went to his uncle, who filled him with dreams of glory. So we've seen this grandiose overcompensation throughout his life: the grand palaces, seeing himself as one of the world's great leaders. But under this is a hollow core. This is a broken man underneath. But we're not going to see that broken man that we saw when he came out of that spider hole. We'll see that defiant self.

S. O'BRIEN: Do you expect that will change at all during the trial, if it goes on? I mean, obviously postponed now till the end of November. But as it goes on, do you expect that to change?

POST: No, I don't expect that to change. He will be playing to his radical Arab followers, he'll be playing to his posture in history. He sees himself as going down in history in the pathway of Nebuchadnezzar, of Saladin, of Nasser, and he does not wish to tar that reputation.

S. O'BRIEN: We heard a description of a moment by Christiane Amanpour that was not caught on cameras, as the guards were trying to lead Saddam Hussein out of the courtroom for a brief recess. And I guess they were trying to sort of escort him by holding him, at which point there was this momentary struggle where he did not want to be held and led out. And I guess eventually he won, in that he kind of stared down the guards. Does that description surprise you? And does their reaction surprise you?

POST: And I think it's quite predictable. And how the mighty have fallen is he there with seven other co-defendants before the bar of justice. But let's go back to that first court appearance he made, when he turned the proceedings upside down and was interrogating the judge as to his resume. And don't forget, Saddam is Iraq, Iraq is Saddam. Saddam was the foreign policy, the domestic policy and was the judge and juror.

It was he, in this current trial, after all, who was both doing the interrogation and made the decision to execute, in effect, these 150 people. So this is a man who is totally identified with Iraq and it is absolutely outrageous that anyone could presume to put him before the bar of justice.

S. O'BRIEN: Dr. Jerrold Post is a former CIA political profiler. He's also the author of "Leaders and Their Followers in a Dangerous World." Thank you -- Miles.

POST: My pleasure.

M. O'BRIEN: Thank you, Soledad.

Supplies of the bird flu drug -- we're call it the bird flu drug. Tamiflu isn't just a bird flu drug. Tamiflu is meant to alleviate symptoms of the flu.

Andy Serwer is here to talk about where -- you know, this is one of those stories where the social good and profit sometimes are, you know, conflicting.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: That's right, Miles. The Swiss drug maker Roche has agreed to discuss arrangements whereby other companies can manufacture this drug, even other governments. This even though the company has an exclusive patent. The company Roche is responding to sharp criticism that it's not doing enough to produce enough supply.

New York Senator Chuck Schumer has been at the fore of criticizing Roche, saying that he would strip the company of its patents here in the U.S. if they didn't comply. Roche is saying they're going to make the drug in the United States.

Meanwhile, as usual, there is an eBay wrinkle. The drug was available for auction on eBay until yesterday, when the company removed it, saying that it violated their laws. They're not allowed to sell prescription drugs online. Doses going for $174, which is much more than what Roche has been selling it for.

M. O'BRIEN: Single dose for $174?

SERWER: No, a course, which is ten doses, actually. But, still, three or four times more than what Roche was charging.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. Andy Serwer, thank you very much.

In a moment, today's top stories. We're going to get back to Hurricane Wilma. While you were sleeping, Wilma became a Category 5 storm. As a matter of fact, a record-breaking category storm. We'll give you an update on where she is headed and how strong she may stay or become. Say with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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