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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired October 21, 2005 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: There is probable cause to believe that high-level Syrian officials were involved in the Hariri assassination.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is worrying you? Why are you calling for a (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? What are you afraid of?

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: I haven't said I'm afraid or I'm worried. So relax.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome back, Mr. Ambassador. Are you enjoying it?

BOLTON: It's about what I expected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: The long-awaited report on who killed the former prime minister of Lebanon is now in and, of course, this being the United Nations, there are just as many questions about the report itself.

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

The Security Council approved the dispatching of German prosecutor Detlev Mehlis and a team to investigate the bomb assassination of Rafik Hariri last February. The report's conclusion: high-level Syrian and Lebanese officials are allegedly behind the plot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOLTON: It finds probable cause to believe that the assassination could not have been undertaken without the knowledge of senior figures in Syrian intelligence. It refers to lack of cooperation by Syria with the investigation, which is diplo-speak for obstruction of justice. It is a very hard-hitting report.

FAYSSAL MEKDAD, SYRIAN AMB. TO U.N.: I think this is a big lie. Nobody was involved in such a thing and it is really a pity that, I mean, some people are sitting and dreaming and writing reports. This is absolutely unacceptable and we have proof that such people were never involved in such a process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: A lot of attention paid to the conclusions but also two conclusions erased from a later version of the Mehlis report. An early version given to the U.N. Security Council and leaked to the press contained the names of the brother and brother-in-law of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, accusing them of involvement in the murder of Hariri. Then the names were deleted in the so-called final version around the same time Mehlis met with Kofi Annan.

The United Nations insists this is Mehlis's investigation, Mehlis's report, and that Annan did not influence the content.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DETLEV MEHLIS, U.N. CHIEF INVESTIGATOR: These names never appeared in the conclusions. They were being named by a suspect -- by a witness, I'm sorry. And the presumption of innocence stands, so that was basically the reason. But no one influenced me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: In a later statement, Mehlis said all of the editorial changes were his and his alone not due to any pressure from the secretary-general.

I asked Syria's ambassador to the United States for official reaction to the damaging conclusions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IMAD MOUSTAPHA, SYRIAN AMB. TO U.S.: Well, Syria has clearly expressed its dismay and dissatisfaction with this report. This report is flagrantly political. It's politicized and instead of actually providing evidence and revealing the truth, it used rumors, innuendo and tall tales to accuse Syria.

ROTH: So you think the United States and maybe France are putting pressure to get a result they want?

MOUSTAPHA: I'm not in a position to accuse anybody else. I hate people who accuse other parties without any evidence. What I want to say is the following. The report is not based on hard-core evidence and the truth. It is just a political report based on shady characters and doubtful witnesses.

ROTH: Well, you're likely to come across some shady people when you're talking about murder and sometimes police forces around the world build cases on people who are not exactly Joan of Ark or people who are --

MOUSTAPHA: That's fair, but you don't instigate against a country and you don't level accusations if you can't really substantiate what you are saying. The report is full of logical loopholes and contradictions. Anyone with honesty, fair-mindedness, can read this report. He or she doesn't need to be a legal expert to see how many contradictions there are in this report.

ROTH: Can you give us some of those contradictions you believe are existing in the report?

MOUSTAPHA: I'm not a legal expert, yet I can give you a few examples, but I assure you they are abundant.

As an example, at one point there is this superman who is a super- witness who knows everything, who has been to every meeting, who has seen everything happening, who actually gives full details about everything that happened, yet his name is never revealed, nobody knows who he is, and yet at another point in the same report another witness contradicts what he says.

You can read this report for yourself and see if this is true or not. What I'm trying to say is the following. At one point the report says that months if not years are needed before a case can be built to be represented to a court. And yet the report doesn't hesitate to level accusations against Syria. This is so unfair and it is so flagrantly politically motivated.

ROTH: Syria was heavily involved in Lebanon, the country perhaps feeling it has not gotten proper credit for going in and stopping a civil war, but it was entrenched in Lebanon and now this report is staying there is convergence of evidence pointing to senior leadership in Syria and in Lebanon as being behind the Hariri assassination.

MOUSTAPHA: Yet instead of listing evidence, they listed -- they just listed dubious tales, nothing that can stand a trial. What we are trying to say is, it's in our interest to reveal the truth. This report did not contribute towards revealing the truth. Actually it created more and more doubts in the minds and hearts of the people who read this report and it's a shame and we are disappointed.

ROTH: There is no proof, I mean there are no conclusions. This is not a court, this report, yet when the report was submitted to the Security Council, originally it had names of Syria's president's brother, brother- in-law, as being implicated, then the names were taken out under the presumption of innocence says the prosecutor Mehlis. What do you make of this switch at the last minute to get rid of names?

MOUSTAPHA: What we make in Syria is the following. They really wanted -- really wanted to make it a report that is flagrantly anti-Syrian without any evidence whatsoever and they decided at the very last moment that was a little too much, and it will expose the report for what truly it is, a politically motivated report written against Syria without a single shred of evidence.

ROTH: Condoleezza Rice says the report is troubling. Syria should be held accountable. The United States will be moving it around at the Security Council. You aren't based there, but what is Syria's plan now when the circle might close on resolutions or any actions against Syria? Do you have the support of China and others to block such action?

MOUSTAPHA: What I want to say is the following. What has been said today and yesterday in the United States you say is exactly what has been repeated throughout the past year. The United States has made its mind about what happened in Lebanon and it has repeated this on a semi-daily basis. The report just repeated what the U.S. government has always said.

I am wondering why the United Nations invested all this time, resource, energy and money to end up with such a report that only repeated without any evidence, without any substantial evidence, what the U.S. administration has been saying.

As for your question regarding the United Nations Security Council, we believe in Syria that any country with fairness and integrity will read this report and will easily realize the logical loopholes in this report and will realize that this report is not based on any facts, hard-core facts, whatsoever.

ROTH: Okay, Ambassador Imad Moustapha, from Syria, with his government's point of view, reacting to the Mehlis report. Thank you very much for joining us from Washington.

MOUSTAPHA: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: Mehlis, the prosecutor, was granted an extension this week until December 15 for his probe by Secretary-General Annan. President Bush commenting on the report says he wants immediate action by the U.N. Security Council.

What is the impact of the report's conclusions, all versions of them?

Joining us from San Antonio, Texas is David Lesch, author of a book, "The New Lion of Damascus: Bashar al-Assad and Modern Syria." And in our Washington studios, Elie Najm, the leader, chairman, of the Council of Lebanese American Organizations.

Mr. Lesch, does this report mean the al-Assad government cannot survive?

DAVID LESCH, AUTHOR: It's in a precarious position. It's the biggest threat by far to the regime and to the person of Bashar al-Assad since he came to power in 2000, but we must not underestimate the resiliency of the regime and the resiliency of the president.

This all has kind of the air of a courtroom drama, so to speak, where the report itself is the witness and the Syrians are the defense right now, and they're going to try to peck away at various aspects of the report as the ambassador just did, pointing out certain inaccuracies, inconsistencies, therefore calling into question the reliability of the report itself.

ROTH: You were in Damascus in May. Has the government there misread the environment and the situation -- not exactly like Saddam Hussein, but in a different way, really thinking, as the report says, that leadership can authorize an assassination and get away with it without the world reacting?

LESCH: I think the Syrian leadership, not necessarily Bashar al-Assad but quite possibly the security services, who I always felt, along with its Lebanese allies, were behind the assassination of Hariri, apart from Bashar al-Assad. I think they've always felt Lebanon was their fiefdom and they could act with impunity. That's a very arrogant attitude and it's a very stupid act they engaged in with the assassination of Hariri, because they misread the reaction to the extension of President Emil Lahoud in his term in office and they should have recognized that in bringing France and the United States of all people together against Syria that an assassination of Hariri would do even more so to unite the opposition and it world public opinion against Syria.

ROTH: Elie Najm, in Washington, are you worried that countries on the Security Council may block United States or French efforts to go after the Syrian government?

ELIE NAJM, COUNCIL OF LEBANESE AMERICAN ORGANIZATIONS: I believe that it became obvious enough for the world that Syria was involved in the killing of Hariri, among other leaders and innocents, Lebanese innocents in Lebanon.

I don't believe really that anybody will block any Security Council resolution.

ROTH: What is your reaction to the report? I imagine this document is being viewed very favorably by your association.

NAJM: Yes, of course. Basically, it's about time that the Syrian terror act in Lebanon to be in the open. It's about time that the world is become well aware of what the Syrians have done to Lebanon and the Lebanese and as far as what you mentioned about the civil war, the comment you mentioned with the Syrian ambassador, really, there was never a true civil war in Lebanon. It was all orchestrated by the Syrians. The Syrians have fabricated every step of the way prior to 1975, of the war, and they really designed a way to get into Lebanon and to be able to control the country. And they succeeded.

ROTH: Understood. That's their view, that they don't get enough credit.

Go ahead -- David.

LESCH: Yeah, the civil war was a product of many things. I have to disagree a bit with Elie. Certainly the Syrians are culpable, but as well the fractured Lebanese political system and in many of the anti-Syrian propaganda that has been thrown about in the last few yours and certainly since the Bush administration came to power, they conveniently forget that the Israelis invaded Lebanon in June of 1982, which accelerated the break down of society in Lebanon, created the environment in which, yes, pro- Syrian elements blew up the American embassy and U.S. marines.

NAJM: I'm sorry, but prior to '82, don't forget the so-called civil war started in 1975 in Lebanon and that kind of --

LESCH: Yes, and you have to look at -- I agree. I mean, Syria is culpable to a certain degree, but you have to spread the blame. It's not just Syria. You have to look at the Lebanese system, the PLO entering into Lebanon by 1971, which helped set the tenuous balance between the factions.

NAJM: Who armed them? Who armed the PLO?

LESCH: We have to look at the blame and spread it around accurately instead of just focusing on Syria, which is what many anti-Syrian elements and elements in the Bush administration have done in recent years.

ROTH: Elie.

NAJM: Well, we are not anti-Syrian. We are anti-dictatorship and anti-regime that kills over 20,000 people in the early '80s in Huma (ph) for telling people. So it's not anti-Syrian as far as Syrian people.

LESCH: And that's a fair argument.

ROTH: David, what about this new lion? Is he going to be now defanged? You've got this new book coming out, you may have to write some extra chapters. I mean, is he really --

LESCH: I've been writing extra chapters, especially with the Hariri assassination.

This is a personal blow to Bashar al-Assad, because he came to power - - in a sense, he wanted to make the family business legitimate, and right now at least the international public perception is that it's business as usual.

And he's put -- if this report is accurate or if it is even mostly accurate, it places him in a real difficult position, because either he is culpable to at least a plausible deniable degree, or this was a rogue operation and he has very little control of the government, which many suspected he -- helped him in any degree. And therefore, you know, he's out of touch. So there is a real disconnect between the observable political apparatus in Syria and the intelligence apparatus.

ROTH: And, Elie, you've got another report coming out by another U.N. envoy, Terje Roed-Larsen, about the backing of militias in southern Lebanon involved with the whole Middle East quest for peace there. What do you see as the way forward here? What happens as with the Larsen report and now the report by Mehlis?

NAJM: Well, I see this as a serious U.N. effort. The free world finally decided to help Lebanon and the Lebanese to see peace and Syria has always been arming those militias in Lebanon, including the Palestinians.

ROTH: Gentleman, I've got to hold it right there. This is still an ongoing story. Developments in the days and weeks ahead. I want to thank you both. David Lesch is San Antonio, Texas. He has a new book out on the "New Lion of Damascus" there, President Bashar al-Assad. We'll see what kind of animal he turned out to be, politically speaking, in the weeks ahead. Elie Najm, chairman of the council on Lebanese American Organizations in Washington, thank you.

NAJM: Thank you.

LESCH: Thank you very much.

ROTH: The prosecutor who led the Hariri death investigation, Detlev Mehlis, found himself being grilled Friday by the U.N. press corps. Basically, it came down to how do you put in high-profile names linked to the Syrian president in a report for Kofi Annan and the Security Council and then hours before broad distribution remove the names, claiming you never knew it would be released to the press corps.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES BONE, "TIMES OF LONDON": You're very good at determining when somebody's story doesn't make sense. Sir, you're story doesn't make sense. The changes were made, according to your own computer records, at 11:38, 11:55 a.m. yesterday morning while you were actually in the room with the secretary-general. Did you make changes while you were in the room with Kofi Annan?

MEHLIS: No.

BONE: Why does your computer say that the changes were made at that time? The crucial changes were at 11:55. There are other changes at 11:38 yesterday, while you were in the secretary-general. Why -- is that incorrect?

MEHLIS: I have no idea on the time. I can only tell you what I told you, if you believe it or not is up to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Corruptions is not a natural disaster. It's the cold, calculated theft of opportunity from the men, women and children who are least able to protect themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: It's corruption time on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE and other misdeeds. First, you just heard the cold, hard truth from David Nusbaum (ph) about corruption levels. He is from Transparency International U.K. This watchdog organization says corruption is found in poor and rich nations alike. 70 countries have severe corruption problems.

Here is the list they rate as the least corrupt countries. Singapore, number five; Denmark; then New Zealand; then Finland; and Iceland as least corrupt number one country.

As far as worst countries: Haiti, fifth worst; then Myanmar; Turkmenistan; Bangladesh; and Chad; Africa the worst continent for corruption overall.

Despite promises, U.N. staff members still are unprotected when it comes to blowing the whistle on corruption or misconduct inside the United Nations. Draft rules remain that, just in draft form. No policy yet on whistle blowers, even as U.N. misconduct has increasingly been revealed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA DIXON, U.N. DIRECTOR OF INVESTIGATIONS: When -- if action is taken against a staff member for retaliation for cooperating with us, there have been occasions where we have pushed management back. As I said, we have no enforcement power. And it requires a policy of the organization, written rules and regulations, that provide sanctions for retaliatory acts. We don't have that power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: One former whistle blower of sorts is now planning to sue the United Nations and former U.N. refugee chief Ruud Lubbers. Cynthia Bersak (ph) had claimed Lubbers sexually harassed her. Lubbers resigned under pressure. She says now she was the target of retaliation. The United Nations says her job is not in jeopardy.

If you're talking about corruption, don't for get the Oil For Food woes of the United Nations. On Friday more arrests as investigations focus in on the people who did business with Iraq's government while the multibillion dollar program was online.

Oscar Wyatt (ph), a noted wealthy Texas oil executive, was arrested Friday and charged along with two Swiss businessmen in connection with secret kickbacks, that action taken by the U.S. government. Other probers announced more Oil For Food developments. A New York City district attorney office said on Thursday a Virginia oil trading company pleaded guilty to paying more than $400,000 in kickbacks to Iraq.

The man who led the U.N. inquiry into Oil For Food told the U.S. Congress this week that reforming the United Nations is not impossible but some countries are going to have to change the ways of other U.N. members. Volcker has a large final report on Oil For Food fraud by private companies this Thursday. He was questioned earlier this week by Senator Norm Coleman, who way before Volcker started his work was calling for Kofi Annan to resign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR NORM COLEMAN (R-MN): I think it would be fair to say that you've got a culture of corruption that's tolerated.

PAUL VOLCKER, U.N. INVESTIGATOR: Well, you had -- I don't know if it's fair to say the United Nations has a culture of corruption. They had some corruption. There is no doubt about it, but it certainly had a culture in action, let sleeping dogs lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROTH: Welcome back to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.

Monday night coming up it's time for the annual Human Rights First dinner. We thought it would finally be a good time to take you inside last year's dinner for a preview of sorts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL POSNER, HUMAN RIGHTS FIRST: The world now needs an organization called Human Rights First. There are so many threats to human rights and so many challenges, we thought the name signified the fact that we're going to fight back.

As an organization with a global focus, we are also very mindful of the increasing threats against local human rights defenders, like the brave women we honor tonight.

The theme of our dinner this year is Women Fighting for Human Rights in Their Own Societies.

Mehrangiz Kar from Iran is one of a handful of extraordinary women activists in that country who for 25 years have stood up to a very repressive government. She is now in exile.

SHOHREH AGHDASHLOO, ACTRESS: Although she was constantly harassed by Islamic lawmakers while living in Iran, she never gave up defending women's rights, not even when she was imprisoned.

MEHRANGIZ KAR, HONOREE: They say in Islam men and women are not equal.

I was determined to do something to ensue that women in Iran are seen, that our voices are heard, for this is the only way that our rights can be recognized under the law.

POSNER: We chose Helen Mack. Her sister was murdered in Guatemala. She was determined to get justice in that case.

LUCRECIA HERNANDEZ MACK, MACK'S NIECE: Myrna Mack was my mother. She was assassinated, a victim of an intelligence operation planned and executed by the army.

POSNER: And she came to us and we stuck with her for 14 yeas until there was finally a judgment holding an officer accountable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Helen, a business administrator with no legal or political training, was determined to bring the killers to justice and to put the state's policy of terror on trial.

HELEN MACK, HONOREE: This journey began as one woman's effort to find justice for her sister, but it has become much more. I came to see that people supported Myrna's case because some measure of justice in her case represented a victory for the tens of thousands who suffer a similar fate.

L. H. MACK: I admire you in so many ways and I am blessed to have you as the grandmother of my children. And as my second mother. Thank you.

POSNER: In a world where the moral authority of the United States has eroded, it has become more important than ever for groups like ours to support, amplify and protect these critical voices.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: One final personal note. DIPLOMATIC LICENSE has lost one of its former viewers. My father died last week, so no cute sign off this time, just a thanks, dad. Jerome Roth, oboist, father and teacher. Thanks everybody for watching.

END

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