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On the Story

Correspondents Discuss Stories Behind the Stories

Aired October 22, 2005 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. I'm Carol Lin with a look at the headlines. Hurricane Wilma thrashing the Yucatan. The category two storm is whipping Mexico's Caribbean beaches and the thousands of people hunkered down in hotels and shelters. Also, the next named storm of the season has formed. So many storms have been named this year, they're going to the Greek alphabet and the next one is called Alpha.
Florida's entire west coast now under a tropical storm watch. The outer banks of hurricane Wilma are already dumping rain on the keys and the southern counties. Monroe, Lee and Collier Counties have all set evacuation plans in motion and with good reason. This is Fort Lauderdale, where torrential pre-hurricane rainfall has already flooded streets in low lying areas. In some places, it's already hip deep. Forecasters expect the storm to hit somewhere in Florida around dawn on Monday.

And hurricane - victims of hurricane Katrina and Rita worry that their plight is going to be forgotten as attention shifts to hurricane Wilma. It's ON THE STORY coming up next.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR, ON THE STORY: This is CNN and we are ON THE STORY. From the campus of the George Washington University in the heart of the nation's capital, our correspondents have the stories behind the stories they're covering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nic Robertson is back in Baghdad on the story of Iraqis tuning into Saddam Hussein on trial. Octavia Nasr talks about how that courtroom drama plays in the Arab world. Dana Bash is on the story of how the CIA leak investigation has the White House tied in knots. Jacki Schechner looks over the Internet to see how that story is churning up politics online.

Joe Johns is on the story of powerful Republican politician Tom DeLay in court and Kathleen Koch knows what lies ahead for those in the hurricane's path and how victims of Rita and Katrina are still struggling.

COSTELLO: And quite an emotional story that is. Welcome. I'm Carol Costello. With me here is Dana Bash and Kathleen Koch. All our correspondents will be taking questions from the studio audience drawn from visitors, college students and people across Washington. Now straight to Iraq. Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson was back there this week, lots on his plate with reaction to the Saddam Hussein trial. But over everything in Iraq, security, staying safe while getting the story. Here's more now, Nic's reporter's notebook. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You put on so many layers of defense just to go out and talk to people and then of course when you get on the street and you want to talk to people, you need to strip all this off. You need to take off the armor. You need to take off the protective eyeglasses. You need to be able to connect with people. You don't want to have barriers between you and them.

Here it's two, three, four, five, 10 times tougher to get people to talk to you and it is by teamwork. It is by having a good producer. (INAUDIBLE) who can speak Arabic. It is by having a cameraman like Gabe Ramirez who's relaxed in these situations. We've been told there are no helicopters coming. Haul all our bags back to the hut, then had to go out and shoot a story, come back, edit the story until 3 or 4 or 5:00 in the morning. And that's really tough. That's wearing on people. It's hard. It's difficult and having a good team and having a good team spirit helps you do it. That's the untold story about working in Iraq is so much harder for everyone.

COSTELLO: I think that's an understatement. Nic Robertson now joins us live from Baghdad and the audience has a lot of questions for you Nic, so let's get right to it. Tell me your name and where you're from and what question you have for Nic.

QUESTION: I'm Mary and I'm from Centennial, Colorado. I'd like to know if it's true that Saddam Hussein refused to admit who he was when asked to at his trial this week and how the Iraqis responded to that.

ROBERTSON: It certainly is true. The judge really took the sort of court really under his control and really made it clear to Saddam Hussein that this wasn't the time for him to be putting forward any issues. This was a time just to identify himself, not to make any political statements and the judge was really in firm control. The Iraqis we talked to about that and were watching it on TV really it breaks down into two halves in the country. The Shias who were persecuted under Saddam, very happy to see him in court, very happy to see him in the cage, wanting the death penalty to come quickly for him.

A lot of the Sunnis on the other hand and Saddam Hussein is one of those Sunni Muslims here, a lot of them in two minds, not wanting to see their former president on trial, feeling that they're being persecuted and losing out at this time. So sort of big divisions in the country over which way they view this whole trial Mary.

COSTELLO: Thank you Nic. Another question from our audience. Tell me your name and where you're from and your question.

QUESTION: Hi. I'm Sara from Altamont Springs, Florida and I was wondering how did your studies in engineering help you capitalize on your opportunities in Baghdad in Afghanistan.

COSTELLO: How did you know that Nic studied engineering?

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)

COSTELLO: I didn't even know that about you Nic. ROBERTSON: Well, I'll tell you how it plays into the life here in Iraq. You know, when we're out, when we're imbedded or wherever, when we're working with satellite phone technology. We're sending our stories out through satellite telephones out through satellite modems. So what it means for me today is climbing up on the sand banks outside my cabin, getting on the roof of the hut, setting the satellite first, making sure we're getting the best signal, plugging it all into the computer so we can send our stories. So I guess it really comes into play, having the technical knowledge is so much an advantage these days in the media we're using. It's so - it's just almost a necessary function so it's great. I mean that background for me has stood me in good stead through Bosnia through Iraq today.

COSTELLO: Nic (INAUDIBLE) technology, but the safety issue has got to be foremost in your mind Nic. In your reporter's notebook, you said that you had to put on so much protection when you went out to talk to common, everyday Iraqis. How do you decide what area to go to and why do you have to take up all of that stuff when you're talking to these people, when it's still dangerous out there?

ROBERTSON: You know, if you come at people with helmets and eyeglasses and you can't make that eye contact and they - they're standing there in their doorways of their stores or out on the street and they're not wearing a lot of protection, you know, there's a real disconnect between you and the people, so I try and take my helmet off, the eyeglasses, leave it in the car. These days I've taken to wearing my flak jacket underneath my shirt. It's looks like I've got a couple of extra inches around my chest which (INAUDIBLE) is flak jacket I can assure you. But you know, by just those subtle things you can connect more easily with people. They don't feel there's a barrier between you and them and they can open up more easily and more readily. I mean it's already intimidating putting a camera in their face and trying to get them to explain their inner most feelings when perhaps they're worried that the insurgents might attack them for whatever they say. So you know, breaking down those barriers, that's really the key thing here Carol.

COSTELLO: And Nic, in covering the White House, what I always here from the Bush administration still is, all we hear from the media is the bad news from Iraq and there is good news that we are just not saying. You've been back and forth so many times now. Talk about the differences that you see on the streets in Iraq.

ROBERTSON: Well you know, just the last week where I was in Baquba the turnout in the elections was double what it was earlier in the year, but really the commander in that area, the U.S. forces commander had invited us in because he thought he had a good news story to tell. We listened to what he had to say. We listened to what Iraqi officials were saying. We listened to what Iraqi people were saying and he was right. Security has improved. People there think security has improved. It's by no means perfect.

There was a car bomb the day we left the town of Baquba. But I do sense in this particular area just northeast of Baghdad that there is better control of the insurgent situation, that the Iraqi police and Iraqi army are getting better. We went out with an Iraqi colonel, is now in control of his own area, is really highly respected by U.S. forces in that area. Indeed, they're beginning to get ready to draw down in that particular town. So there are some real indications there. There are problem areas, but what I'm seeing this time is some improvement. It's relative, but it's there in some areas and I'll be looking around the rest of the country to see if we can see it there as well.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nic, this is Kathleen. What are you hearing from the Iraqis in the streets about their impressions of the Saddam Hussein trial as it's just beginning and is there still, despite how obviously many in the country did despite him, is there still though a longing for the stability, for how at least organized their lives were, how normal they were when he was their leader?

ROBERTSON: Certainly, you'll find people that look back with nostalgia to that safety and security when Saddam Hussein was in power. It sounds strange or it sounds strange when you listen to people telling you that. But the majority of people weren't in fear for their lives. They couldn't have free and easy conversations. They couldn't discuss their real feelings, but they didn't feel in danger when they went out. Today people do feel that danger when they go out and go to work.

But it still falls into two areas. The Shias very happy to see Saddam Hussein on trial. The Sunnis less so and when you talk to them, a lot of them say the court is illegitimate. The government is too heavily influenced by Iran for example, that Saddam doesn't recognize the court. They don't recognize the court, that they want him back as a leader. But there's shades of opinion even in the Sunnis. I talked to two men watching the - working in the same store, watching the trial. One of them wanted Saddam back in power and the other one, his cousin said look, there are better people around now than Saddam. The country has moved on. We need people who can bring stability between the two communities, between the Sunnis and Shias in the country. So some people are moving on, but there are clearly people who really crave that security they felt they had before Kathleen.

COSTELLO: But the really cool thing about that Nic, it's a democracy and they can talk about that now. Nic Robertson, we want to thank you for joining us live from Baghdad. Fascinating, isn't it? From Baghdad back to Washington and a president that has seemed distracted by the investigation into the leak of a CIA officer's name. Dana Bash back on that story right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: CNN is on the story. President Bush found his officials events this week interrupted by questions about the CIA leak investigation. Our White House correspondent Dana Bash is on that story. Take a look at her reporter's notebook.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is a White House with a lot of political problems. Anybody you talk to inside the White House will ask (INAUDIBLE) What changed a little bit this week is, as we get closer to when we actually could have an announcement, could had indictments, is in talking to some of the people who are closest to Karl Rove, to Scooter Libby, people who really know them, you hear a lot more candid talk about how they're feeling, about the personal toll it is taking on them. This is a White House that is known for their ability to control, to control stories, to figure out how to maneuver the press and how to shake the story. They have no control over this.

Two years ago, when the story first broke, the line from the podium, the line from the president was no one wants to get to the bottom of this as much as I do. Well, actually at this point, I think they really mean it.

COSTELLO: I love this story. I love political intrigue and boy are we in the right town. (INAUDIBLE) do our audience has questions for you Dana. OK, so let's get right to it. Who is (INAUDIBLE) your name, where you're from.

QUESTION: I'm Freddy from Bellmore (ph), Long Island, New York. Can any White House press secretary truly control the news cycle when you have the Internet and you have blogs where fact checking isn't necessarily number one on their hit parade and really, do we really want the White House press secretary, the White House to control the news cycle?

BASH: Absolutely not, no, we definitely don't want the press secretary to control the situation and as I was just talking about, the interesting things really in covering the White House for so long is that for a time, they were actually remarkably good give ins (ph) to kind of multimedia that we have now, at controlling things, at really staying around the corner of what could come next and being in a position to try to shape the story. And especially with this leak investigation, it is completely out of their control. It's a man, a special prosecutor and his team who have this airtight process going on. There are no leaks from them about the leaks investigation which is I guess kind of good when you think about it. But it makes it very difficult for them and it really, it's not just that. It's the fact that they have that plus the ongoing war in Iraq, which Nic was just talking about. They're still dealing with hurricane fallout. That was really - hit them hard and now they've got the Supreme Court nomination which is absolutely not going to plan at all.

KOCH: Dana, I was just filling in at the White House last week and I felt and tell me if this is correct, but that the atmosphere, it's in the briefing room have gotten much more tense, much more combative, again on these issues of the leak investigation, Harriet Miers. I mean reporters just writing and writing and writing. Scott just putting up that wall, building it higher and higher.

BASH: Oh, absolutely and he actually had a comment I think it was this week saying look, we get it. I have a job to do. You have a job to do, sort of like trying to sort of pull the humanity out of everybody but I'll tell you, what's really interesting, not so much in the briefing room, but in making phone calls to sources, you know to sort of - standard thing is you make a call and you ask a question and they sort of read from the talking points or they give you the line that they're supposed to give you and then after a while, you try to break them down and get them to be a little bit more candid. It's like they don't even bother any more with the talking points (INAUDIBLE) talk to because they just know what's the point, the sort of the wait and everything that they are facing has just gotten to them and there's a lot more candor when you talk to people. I mean I talked to somebody at the end of the week who said point blank about the Miers situation, the reason why this is happening is because nobody is in charge. It was stunning.

COSTELLO: Well, tell me what it's really like though when you're dealing with your sources and you're dealing with members of the administration. Is it contentious now, because the administration knows it can't control the message any longer. So they must be really frustrated so how are they treating correspondents?

BASH: Well, I think in the sort of public discussion (INAUDIBLE) in the briefing rooms it is contentious. But what's interesting is behind the scenes, it's actually not as contentious as you would think because they get it. They get that they can't control it and they get that there actually are legitimate criticisms of - there's legitimate criticism of what they are doing. And you would think that it would make it more contentious. You would think it would get their back up, but in my dealings with people at the White House, it's almost like a given and they have conversations like - I hate to say that it's like some people I've talked to - I've talked to really feel beaten down, but it is. And actually I talked to somebody, another person at the end of the week who just came out of the White House who said, look, the issue is people are tired. There's a very small inner circle of senior advisors to the president. Many of them have been there for a very long time. They're beaten down. They're tired and that's why things are slipping.

COSTELLO: Interesting. We have another audience member. Sir, what's your name? Where are you from?

QUESTION: Yes, hi. My name is Dick from New York City. Just to follow up on that, do you think the Supreme Court nomination process is getting just too political? I seem to recall that when Justice Ginsburg was up for her process, the questions, the whole atmosphere just wasn't as political and there just wasn't as much in fighting. My question is, do you see a difference between the Justice Ginsburg days and the Justice Miers days and if the standard is different, should it be?

BASH: Well, I actually didn't cover the Ginsburg nomination, but I've studied it and I know. It seems to me that the biggest difference, maybe not so much Ginsburg, but just look at Roberts, the difference between the two nominations that the president has put up is the infighting within the Republican party. I mean another sort of stunning, I can't believe I'm watching this moment this week was to see the Republican chairman of the Judiciary Committee go back in the face of the Republican White House saying, you sent us up answers to a questionnaire. It's not sufficient. The Miers nomination is a situation where the White House is trying to figure out how they can keep Republicans, moderate Republicans, conservative Republicans, all happy at the same time and it's not working out. They're just discovering they're different people now. COSTELLO: Dana Bash on the story, thank you. From the White House to the hurricane, amidst concern for those in the path of Wilma in the coming days or is it that victims of Katrina and Rita might be left behind? CNN's Kathleen Koch is back on that story after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We're on the story. Millions of people are watching and waiting for Wilma. We're giving you regular updates here on CNN. Our correspondent Kathleen Koch is a veteran of covering hurricanes. She was one of the reporters covering Katrina as that storm devastated where she grew up, along the Gulf of Mexico and she knows what Wilma may bring. Here's Kathleen's reporter's notebook.

KOCH: I've made a personal commitment to the people of my town that I won't let them be forgotten.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's my high school. It's incredible. (INAUDIBLE)

KOCH: Are they bringing you food and water?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They just brought me water. Somebody had some gas. They were going to go all the way down to (INAUDIBLE)

KOCH: I think that being from a town that was virtually destroyed by the hurricane can help you and at the same time, also, can make it difficult for you as a reporter to do your job. It can help you because it gives you special insight, things, what was there and what was left, what it really meant to the people. And I think it makes it difficult because it's hard to control your emotions. It's hard not to be swept up in what's happening, because again it matters so much to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE : The place we grew up in (INAUDIBLE) it's gone.

COSTELLO: You're emotional already.

KOCH: It's hard to listen to.

COSTELLO: I know, but our audience has a lot of questions for you. And I'm sure that one of the questions you'll be answering is, you were so close to this story and it must have been so difficult to report in a factual way without letting your emotions get in the way. We're going to ask you if that was even possible. But don't answer that question yet. Let's go straight to our audience. Sir, your name and where you're from.

QUESTION: Hi, I'm Shel (ph) from Brookline, Massachusetts and I am wondering, how do you maintain your professional objectivity and impartiality during interviews, especially when you have a strong personal opinion? What do you actually say to yourself to maintain your cool?

KOCH: Well, I think in this case, it was just so important to really to get the message out to the rest of the world about what was happening and to not lose your cool and to note become too emotional and I think CNN handled it very well as far as my personal story about my hometown and letting me just go there, tell that story, just string together my experiences and then everything else that I did was sort of separate from that, so I could sort of compartmentalize, keep my emotions in because my job was so important, I really had to very calmly and coolly convey to the rest of the world what was happening, what was working, what was not, not succumb to the urge to just scream that things weren't working, that someone needed to do more, because if I lost my cool, then I couldn't do my job as a reporter.

So you just have to say, look, I have a duty. These people are counting on me, my classmates that I ran into in the street, who had nothing left, they fed me. They wouldn't take anything from me. They had nothing. They had the shoes on their feet and the clothes on their backs and they'd all lost their homes and they said, we don't want anything from you. Just get out, get the message out. You have the power. You have the ability, just let everyone know so what's happening isn't working and the people need more.

COSTELLO: I really would like Dana to ask her question because we were talking about it before the show and it moved me, her answer moved me. So....

BASH: I think it was just that I was just ran into somebody in Washington who was talking about the fact that she has family - her sister is in the town where you were and that she was trying to find her sister and couldn't find her and she got in touch with you and said, please, can you find my sister and you were able to do that.

KOCH: It was - that was one of the tougher things to deal with in addition to me trying to do my job and control my emotions, is that whenever people were able to reach out to us, it was really difficult and it happened a lot. We were getting pummeled with e-mails and with phone calls by my siblings, by my parents, by friends and by total strangers like Kiki and Kiki said, can you find my sister Karen and my brother? I haven't heard from them. They live in (INAUDIBLE) and here what his job and here is where his house is and can you get there?

And so whenever we were working and we were working sometimes, 17, 19 hour days, we would then leave, instead of going back and sleeping I would go and look for people and sometimes we found them and we had good news. And sometimes we couldn't get down the streets. The debris was taller than an 18 wheeler. We couldn't get down there and in sometimes the worst case scenario was we just couldn't even make the effort. We ran out of time and it would get too dark and we'd have to leave and I had to do that in the case of a very dear neighbor of mine and we never made it to the home and one of his daughters ended up finding him dead in the home the next week and that was the hardest thing for me, because these were girls who I had babysat for and this was one of my neighbors and the wife begged me to get there and we couldn't get there.

COSTELLO: And we keep telling her, wasn't your fault, nothing you could have done.

KOCH: But you got to try.

COSTELLO: That's right. Another question. Ma'am, what's your name? Where are you from?

QUESTION: I'm Susan (INAUDIBLE) from Altamont Springs, Florida. We're worried about hurricane Wilma right now and in covering the hurricanes, I'm wondering what recommendations you would have in terms of logistical support in both the evacuation efforts, in the recovery efforts.

KOCH: Well, I think people just need to please take it very seriously. I think that's one thing we all learned in Katrina, but so many of the people in my town had survived Camille and they had this Camille survivor syndrome where they thought they were hurricane proof. Their homes were hurricane proof. They'd ridden out the worst that could be. So people need to take it seriously. They need to evacuate, but don't evacuate and just think, well, maybe I'll be back in three days. That was the mistake a lot of people I knew made. They didn't take all their records with them. They didn't take clothes and underwear for a week. They didn't take enough food. They didn't take just vital records that they might need in a worst case scenario like in my town. You'd come back and everything is just gone. Your house like you saw in this videotape is just a slab. So just hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. And FEMA has gotten the message. They're doing a much better job in Florida. They did a better job in Rita. They're pre-positioning communications teams, handing out satellite phone, 300 of them in the state of Florida so that people are not in the situation that they were in in New Orleans and along the Mississippi coast where the worst case scenario did occur. But no one - they couldn't reach out. They couldn't communicate.

COSTELLO: Kathleen Koch. Of course, updates on Wilma whenever there is news and at the half hour. From hurricanes to politics, Tom DeLay said his court appearance is just for political show by the prosecutor. Our Joe Johns is back on that story from Texas. We're on the story from there here in Washington, Baghdad and also elsewhere. This week from Beirut, Russia and Kashmir. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Painstaking detective work by this team of U.N. investigators concludes what many Lebanese have suspected all along, that Syria it's now officially claimed, played a decisive role in the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The government ordered Yandovka sealed off and all its birds destroyed after test results indicated some were infected with a deadly H5N1 strain of bird flu. In six days, 300 birds died. Yandovka will remain under quarantine for three weeks and its villagers will be closely monitored for bird flu symptoms.

RAM RAMGOPAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As winter descends on the Himalayan mountains, the Pakistani Army is deploying more and more foot patrols carrying food and supplies to some of the hardest hit and remote villages of (INAUDIBLE). International relief officials are calling it one of the toughest relief operations in history.

(END VIEOTAPE)

LIN: More of ON THE STORY in just a moment, but first a quick update on hurricane Wilma. The storm is weakening, but it's still causing big problems for Mexico and it's still a threat to Florida. Our severe weather expert Chad Myers standing by at the CNN weather center. Chad.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hi, good evening. And the whole area here now finally taking a little sigh of relief. The winds have shifted direction and they've come down a little bit from Cancun, but significant and dangerous damage there in Cancun and even in the downtown area. The hotel zone, obviously that we know about there as well, the eye though emerging from the Yucatan into some warmer water.

We have a couple of computer models I want to show you, one that actually takes it very close up into Fort Myers. This here, that's tomorrow night and then wow, bang, by Monday afternoon and evening, completely gone. The storm really starts to speed up. The official hurricane center forecast, right now the winds are sustained at 100 miles per hour and a little after midnight, late tomorrow night and into early Monday morning, still offshore, but by Monday afternoon on another side of the state. Carol.

LIN: It's a fast one. All right, thanks very much Chad.

MYERS: You're welcome.

LIN: That's what's happening right now in the news. I'm Carol Lin. Now back to ON THE STORY, too many hurricanes. That's what victims are thinking as they worry if their own needs are going to be forgotten.

COSTELLO: We are ON THE STORY here on the campus of the George Washington University in the nation's capital. In Texas, one of the most powerful politicians in the country, former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay was photographed and fingerprinted, we should say mug shotted, because that's what he was. And he was also inside the courtroom at the end of the week. DeLay and two political (INAUDIBLE) accused but deny scheming to launder campaign funds. Congressional correspondent Joe Johns is on that story. A look inside his reporter's notebook.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The mug shot was pure genius quite frankly on Tom DeLay's part. It looks like a class photo. It does not look like the broken man sitting in front of a camera that you'd expect to see in a mug shot. You could use that almost anywhere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R), TEXAS: I committed no wrongdoing whatsoever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: There's the chase of trying to get the picture of Tom DeLay going to be booked. DeLay did an end run, went to a different place to be booked. All of this we guess was to try to avoid that so- called perp walk picture of him going to justice. It didn't happen. We didn't get that picture that would have stayed with him for the rest of his political career. He's going to try very hard to protect his image and protect his political career. It's a lot different from Washington, D.C. It's about as far out of the beltway as you can get. There's concern in the Republican party about the image of the party right now, but there is hope they feel because the mid-term elections are not until next year. They still have an opportunity to turn this around, but they don't like what they see right now.

COSTELLO: Joe Johns in Austin, Texas and you talk more about Tom DeLay and can you imagine that conversation. Mr. DeLay, for your mug shot, we want you to smile and look nice and I want to know more on that Joe. But let's take an audience member's question. Sir, what's your name? Where are you from and what's your question?

QUESTION: Hi. I'm Rich Daly (ph) from (INAUDIBLE) Rhode Island. Do you feel that Tom DeLay's strategy of aggressive confrontation with the prosecutor, his smiling mug shot, does that the potential to be a successful one or will it go down as just another example of his arrogance?

JOHNS: Well, Rich, to tell you the truth, when you look at it, there's sort of two strategies there. On the one hand, he's going after the prosecutor. That could be risky because when you go after the prosecutor is sort of going after a giant and filling him or her with a terrible resolve if you will. On the other hand, the strategy is sort of aimed at the Republicans in the House of Representatives to say, hey, I'm still here. I'm still viable. I might get off. Hold my job open for me. So he's speaking to a lot of different people out there as well as the public at large. They don't know what to make of this. Everything we've heard so far has been about legal process. We haven't gotten to the merits yet. That might not come until next year.

COSTELLO: Joe, you've covered Tom DeLay for so long. What - talk about his demeanor in the courtroom and was it any different from the Tom DeLay you've known, the defiant Tom DeLay that we all know?

JOHNS: Right. Well, I got to tell you, the truth is that I personally was not in the courtroom simply because myself and my producer were racing off to try to get this sort of secret squirrel interview that was supposed to be happening at about the same time. But from what I could tell from what I've read, he was confident. He was calm. He was not jittery. He was Tom DeLay. He was once again sort of showing that campaign side of Tom DeLay that we've seen ever since this indictment came down, the same Tom DeLay you see in that mug shot, the person who was very confident, to look at that and try to look through it, it suggests to you this is a person who's trying to project an image that he doesn't feel he's guilty and that is what he's been saying all along. He's been claiming that this is a politically motivated prosecution Carol.

KOCH: Joe, it's Kathleen. When you're facing charges in a state like Texas, does Tom DeLay have to play the game any differently in that state? Do different rules apply? JOHNS: Well, not really different rules I mean innocent until proven guilty as you know. He'll have his day in court. He'll have to deal with these charges one way or the other. Obviously he's trying to get them dismissed. So the thing that's different here is how rough and tumble it is. You know, in Washington, D.C., a lot of lawyers try to be philosophers. A lot of lawyers try to be intellectuals. They try to be very dignified when the cameras come around. People here are sophisticated, the lawyers certainly are, but it's very rough and tumble. They get in there and they throw punches. They take punches. They say nasty things about each other. It's really a grudge match. It's pretty amazing to watch. You can get these attorneys on the phone too from time to time and they'll tell you what they think. They don't split hairs. They tell you what they think.

COSTELLO: Joe Johns, thank you, live from Austin, Texas. We'll be watching your reporters.

We're going back to the Iraq story, how the Saddam Hussein trial is viewed elsewhere in the Muslim world. Our senior Arab affairs editor Octavia Nasr on that story right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We are on the story millions of us watched as former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein walked into his trial this week. How does that story and that image of the former Iraqi president play in the Muslim world? Our senior Arab affairs editor Octavia Nasr is keeping watch. Here's Octavia's reporter's notebook.

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Our job is report what we see, what we hear and our job is to bring in all the different points of view to the tables. The Arab media are calling it historic. They're calling it the trial of the 21st Century. The Iraqis have a vision. Folks are calling it the trial of the century for the dictator of the century. We watch televisions. We monitor what sites on the Internet, newspapers and talk to people on the Saddam Hussein trial. We're monitoring Al Jazeera, Al Arabiya, and a variety of other local TV stations just to see what else they're saying that we're missing.

In the middle east, they use a lot more experts of different views (INAUDIBLE) yesterday for example used a psychiatrist to talk about Saddam Hussein and his behavior in court before going to plea. I read most major newspapers all the way from London to Qatar to the U.S., to Beirut, Damascus, Cairo, you name it. It's taking everything in and being able to deliver it in a simple and effective way.

COSTELLO: And Octavia Nasr joins us now from the CNN center in Atlanta. Our audience has a lot of questions for you Octavia, so let's get right to it. Tell me your name, where you're from and you're question.

QUESTION: Hi, I'm Jessica. I'm my Centennial, Colorado. I was just wondering if you've noticed any concerns among Iraqis regarding the legitimacy of the new referendum and its impact on their traditional lifestyle. NASR: Absolutely. Leading up to the trial, this was the talk all over the Arab world, not just in Iraq. They were wondering about whether this trial is going to be fair, whether it's going to be legitimate. The interesting thing as soon as the trial opened, the attention was on Saddam Hussein himself. People could not believe their eyes. They could not believe - they described it as surreal. They call it drama. They called it unreal, unbelievable, un-thought of, unread of, because you have to think in the middle east, even the idea of a former president, a former dictator, a former ruler, that's just unheard of in the middle east. So that shifted to the surreal view of seeing this man in the defense pen (ph).

COSTELLO: Another question. There you are. Tell me your name, where you're from and your question.

QUESTION: I'm Marcia from Potomac, Maryland. If the U.S. pulls out the troops soon, say after the next elections, do you think that that would improve or worsen the situation with the insurgency?

NASR: Well the people on the ground are very concerned about the U.S. pulling its troops too soon or too late. You hear both sides of the story. If you read Arab media, you hear people say that the U.S. should pull out its troop immediately because their presence in Iraq is making things worse. And then you have the other side saying the U.S. has to continue its presence in Iraq until the Iraqis themselves are capable of ruling the country and protecting the country and themselves. So two different views. It's hard to get one, two people to agree on one thing it seems in the middle east.

KOCH: Octavia, it's Kathleen. Some very disturbing video came out this week of American soldiers apparently burning the bodies of some Taliban who had been killed. How is that resonating in the Muslim world?

NASR: Not very well, just like everything else, you know, any time they see that the U.S. is misbehaving or behaving inappropriately, you have concern. You have dissent. You have people complaining but this story for some reason didn't play as high as other stories that we've seen before such as the Abu Ghraib scandal. It may be because this was a busy week for the Arab world. You had the Saddam Hussein trial. You had the constitution referendum in Iraq. You also had (INAUDIBLE) in the U.S. and a score of other things happening. Lebanon was a big story in the middle east, so they probably didn't have time to focus on it. Maybe next week we'll see more on it, but they cover this. They were upset about it, but not as much as other stories.

COSTELLO: Octavia Nasr from the CNN center in Atlanta. Thank you very much. We will see you back on the story. From the Muslim world, we're back to U.S. politics and how political uproar over a leak investigation is showing up on the Internet. Our Internet reporter Jacki Schechner is back on that story right after this.

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COSTELLO: We are on the story here in Washington. What has this town talking and waiting. It's the CIA leak story. Who leaked the name of an intelligence operative and whether the White House was involved. We are on the story online with our Internet reporter Jacki Schechner. Jacki, what are you seeing?

JACKI SCHECHNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Carol. Well, my big story this week has been the CIA leak investigation in the Valerie Plame affair. And it's actually been sort of challenging for me, because I cover what the blogs are talking about and a lot of times in an instance like this, where there's not a lot of facts or there's little bits and pieces of facts, there's a tremendous amount of speculation. How do I cover that? How do I put that on the air?

For example, the "New York Times" on Sunday came out with their account. Judith Miller wrote her account. I went to blogs like Tom McGuire (ph) just one minute, who's been pretty obsessive about following the story. Another one's been Jeralyn Merritt at talkless.com, Arianna Huffington at the huffingtonpost, another one who's been following this one incredibly diligently. But what happens is names come up along the way and there's speculation into how these people were involved, guys like John Hannah (ph), Steven Hadley, Jennifer Millerwise for example and I can't go out there and say that they've done anything, even though the blogs are speculating that they may possibly involved in some scandal this way.

So let's bring in a couple of the bloggers now and talk about how the blogs cover a story like this and how they think the mainstream media is doing in covering a story like this. I've got Garrett Graff of fishbowldc. He's also now an editor at "Washingtonian" magazine. And you might best remember Garrett as being the first blogger credentialed to attend a White House press briefing. That was earlier this year.

And we've also got John Aravosis a big liberal blog, americablog.com. John has been following this story and other big stories that have to do with the White House. He is best credited for breaking the Jeff Gannon story. Guys are both familiar with D.C. media. John, let's start with you in particular. I think it was your blog that called this story the gift that keeps on giving. How do you think that the blogs have done in handling the story and then in comparison, the mainstream media.

JOHN ARAVOSIS, AMERICABLOG.COM: I think both have done a pretty good job. I mean the mainstream media we've been concerned at least in the left blogosphere that they've been ignoring this story for a couple years. This was a story we were all worried about two years ago in terms of whether someone in the White House basically committed treason by outing a CIA agent during wartime. Having said that, I think in the last month - no, maybe it was the last three months - the mainstream media has really gone crazy on this story. I mean that in a good way. I mean there's been a real competition, a healthy competition in the media to get the story, to get the details and that's something that at least again from the left we feel has really been lacking over the last five years in the Bush administration.

SCHECHNER: Now Garrett, you cover the blogs and you're also a blogger. How do you think the blogs have played into this story and again the mainstream media coverage. One of your posts today says is Judy ruining your life? What do you think this is doing to the mainstream media?

GARRETT GRAFF, FISHBOWLDC.COM: Well, I think it's been very interesting to see how the blogs are covering this, because I think that they're keeping a lot more pressure on this story than we would otherwise have. I mean here in Washington there has always been a very active rumor mill on this story as it has been with the scandal throughout recent history. But what we're seeing now with blogs is the spreading of that rumor mill from the Charlie Palmer steak house lunch table here, all the way across the country.

SCHECHNER: Carol, you had a question?

COSTELLO: One of our audience members has a question. Stand up sir. Give me your name, where you're from and the question.

QUESTION: I'm Steve (INAUDIBLE) from Easton, Maryland and I just - I was wondering about blogs. It seems to me that they're just an opportunity for an individual to express their own opinion and I wonder, if they're really newsworthy or are we perhaps overemphasizing the value of a blog?

SCHECHNER: I'll let the bloggers answer that. They're best to do that. John, why don't we start with you? What do you think?

ARAVOSIS: It depends on the blog, just like it depends on the news show. I think, I don't want to speak for myself totally, but I mean I know we - Garrett obviously made some news during the Gannon story. We made some news during that. Blogs do do some original reporting. There's also a lot of commentary. I think it really depends on the blog and it really depends, even the blog from day to day. We could have a week where we're not breaking anything major on my blog, but then we've done some original reporting where we've actually broken some pretty big stories. So I think sort of like anybody in the media or anybody who's a writer, it depends on who they are as to whether they're something special or not. But I think you're right in the sense that, I don't know how many millions of blogs there are out there now. It's not as if all of them necessarily are worth talking about on CNN. Of course not.

SCHECHNER: Hey, Garrett, how about you?

GRAFF: I completely with John. I think that what we've seen is that blogs are capable of part time journalism, that there are times that there are certain stories we saw it with the tsunami and we saw it with Jeff Gannon actually, with the London bombings, with the Katrina and Rita, that there are times when blogs are capable of very good journalism. But there are, the majority of blogs, the vast majority of blogs are commentary and opinion and they're very happy to just do that.

SCHECHER: Well, that's what I do. I help sift through that and Carol with that, we'll send it back to you.

COSTELLO: And you do an excellent job, Jacki Schechner, thanks to you and also thanks to our bloggers.

We're looking ahead, what's on the story for us next week right after this.

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COSTELLO: Let's take a quick look ahead on the story. Dana, what's on your agenda?

BASH: Well, after two years, we expect that if there are indictments in that CIA leak case, it could happen this coming week.

COSTELLO: Kathleen.

KOCH: I'll be keeping an eye on official Washington and Fem.'s response preparations for hurricane Wilma. What about you Carol?

COSTELLO: As I will. (INAUDIBLE) anchor chair in New York and of course we'll be talking a lot about Wilma and Fem.'s response, so it should be very interesting. Thanks to my colleagues and our audience here at the George Washington University and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We'll be back each week Saturday night and Sunday afternoon. Straight ahead, a check on what's making news right now.

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