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Lou Dobbs Tonight
White House on Edge; CIA Leak Probe; Crime and Cover-Up; Able Danger Identified Mohamed Atta Before 9/11; Iraq War Veteran Paul Hackett Close To A Stunning Political Upset In Ohio This Summer; Canada Does Not Trust The U.S. Over Trade
Aired October 26, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, new developments in the CIA-White House leak case. There are reports tonight as well that the Harriet Miers' nomination is in even more trouble than the White House has feared.
And did the Pentagon stop dissemination of intelligence on Mohamed Atta a year before 9/11?
And tonight, a sudden reversal by the White House on a measure that was helping contractors pay less than the prevailing wage in the Gulf Coast rebuilding effort. We'll have that special report.
And outrage in Florida after Hurricane Wilma. Why residents are still unable to find bottled supplies, and why those residents who were warn for days before the storm hit to evacuate are now blaming the government for their deprivation and discomfort.
Tonight we begin at the White House, where there is anxiety and dread as all of Washington and the nation awaits word of whether there will be indictments of top Bush administration officials. CNN has learned that the special prosecutor in this case today met with a top judge in Washington.
Suzanne Malveaux, at the White House, reports on the latest developments in the leak investigation. Kelli Arena, at the District Court in Washington, reporting on the special prosecutor's choices now. And Bill Schneider, in Washington, reporting on the impact of this investigation on the president's image and his agenda.
We turn to Suzanne Malveaux first -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, there certainly was a collective groan here at the White House when they found there was not going to be an announcement on the CIA leak investigation. But there is also a collective strategy here to try to show Americans that they are pushing forward, moving forward on their agenda, despite this distraction.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice over): President Bush and his top aides look busy as Washington anxiously waits for possible indictment out of the CIA leak investigation. The two senior officials who may face charges, Karl Rove and Scooter Libby, seen shuttling between the White House and the offices next door. Both present for Mr. Bush's 7:30 daily morning meeting.
Across town, cameras chase special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald to try to capture his next move. One White House insider said, "The deeper we get the more nervous we become." While the investigation is very much on everyone's minds, no one is talking about it.
The White House strategy now is to focus what the administration can do as it waits for the next shoe to drop.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So we're continuing to focus on what the American people care most about. Those are the things that we can do something about. We obviously continue to follow developments in the news.
Mr. Bush's schedule is packed, and on a normal day probably would have made news. In the morning, a meeting with the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, a strategy session with congressional leaders, and a bill- signing. Later, a courtesy call with the prime minister of Macedonia, and a speech on the economy.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These pro-growth policies have worked.
MALVEAUX: Central to the administration's strategy is to pivot the spotlight to the positive. On the foreign policy front, the successful passage of the Iraqi constitution. But the American ambassador gave us mixed reviews.
ZALMAY KHALILZAD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: The insurgency and the terrorists remain a formidable challenge, strong.
MALVEAUX: On the domestic front, Mr. Bush deals again with hurricane recovery, traveling to Florida Thursday to comfort victims of Hurricane Wilma. Behind all this public animation, insiders say the White House is ready for the investigation's outcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And, of course, Lou, that outcome could not come soon enough for some people in the White House who simply want to move forward. But part of that strategy, of course, if there are any indictments they expect immediate resignations. The president to come forward making a brief statement, and then on, hopefully, they try to business as usual -- Lou.
DOBBS: This approach, this strategy, as you report the White House is employing, is there a palpable difference in the atmosphere with you, Suzanne, for example, while you were at the White House?
MALVEAUX: Well, what you feel a sense is that everyone is somewhat in this together because they're all waiting to see when the next shoe is to drop. You know that everybody simply is not able or not allowed to talk about it amongst each other. We're asking lots of questions, and people get a sense of anxiety and tension about that. There is a sense here that everyone is simply ready and -- ready essentially for the next stage of this, and that that's what they're preparing for. They just want to move on -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much. Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
Special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald today met with district court Judge Thomas Hogan. He's the chief judge in the District of Columbia. That meeting came after Fitzgerald met with the grand jury investigating the CIA-White House leak.
Kelli Arena reports from the District Court in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As usual, special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald didn't have much to say as he left the courthouse. And the suspense continues. He could make his case on Friday and ask jurors to decide on indictments then, or Fitzgerald may need more time and will ask to extend the grand jury. He's already done that once.
In fact, Fitzgerald met with the judge who would grant that extension on Wednesday. But it's unclear why.
ROSCOE HOWARD, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: Let's say that he has one more witness to put in. You can ask for a brief extension. You can ask -- you can ask the chief judge to bring a grand jury back for a very limited engagement. It could be one day. It could be a couple of days. But one more time.
ARENA: Another possibility, though legal experts say it's unlikely, the grand jury may have already delivered an indictment and it's being kept under seal.
HOWARD: It's unusual. I mean, it's rare that you seal it for the convenience of the parties.
ARENA: Then again, Fitzgerald may not seek any indictments at all. But lawyers close to the case expect Fitzgerald to bring some type of charges, and they say they probably won't have to do with divulging CIA operative Valerie Plame's name.
ROBERT RAY, FMR. INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Pat Fitzgerald may well decide that there's an important federal interest to be vindicated here simply by a prosecution in the area of obstruction of justice. Again, it remains to be seen, but it would not be unprecedented.
ARENA: Whatever decision he does make, legal experts say he'll be able to back it up by the thoroughness of his investigation. In fact, just this week, FBI agents were out again interviewing Valerie Plame's neighbors, asking if they knew she worked for the CIA before her name was made public.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: These are, without question, the darkest days of the Bush administration. The White House has throughout tried very hard to maintain an image of integrity and tight discipline throughout the presidency. With indictments now possible in the CIA White House leak case, that carefully-crafted image tonight is under significant threat.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): Ethics played no small part in getting President Bush elected.
BUSH: So when I put my hand on the bible, I will swear to not only uphold the laws of our land, I will swear to uphold the honor and dignity of the office to which I have been elected, so help me god.
SCHNEIDER: Message to voters afflicted by scandal fatigue? I'm not like Bill Clinton.
When President Bush took office in 2001, nearly two-thirds of Americans considered the new president honest and trustworthy. That number rose to more than three quarters in the months following 9/11.
At the end of 2003, the CIA leak investigation began. President Bush sounded all for it.
BUSH: If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action.
SCHNEIDER: Most Americans still considered President Bush honest and trustworthy when he took office for a second term last January. By July, President Bush's language was getting a little more lawyerly.
BUSH: And if someone committed a crime, they will no longer work in my administration.
SCHNEIDER: By last month, half the public said President Bush was not honest and trustworthy.
As the investigation reaches a conclusion this week, the president's response is...
BUSH: I'm not going to comment about it.
SCHNEIDER: The investigation has taken a toll, and not just on the president. Three years ago, nearly three-quarters of the public gave top Bush administration officials high marks for ethical standards. Now the public is split. Negative marks have more than doubled.
And Americans now believe Democrats would do a better job than Republicans in dealing with corruption in government. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The best principle of damage control is, make sure the worst information gets out first. And right now an anxious Washington fears the worst news may be yet to come -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider. Thank you very much, Bill.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: If there are indictments in the CIA-White House leak case, the charges may well have no direct connection with the actual crime, the crime of violating laws that protects the identity of our CIA agents. Instead, people could be indicted for simply lying to the grand jury investigating the case.
Bruce Morton reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN SR. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Do people sometimes get convicted not of the crime itself but of the cover-up? Well, yes.
Alger Hiss, then Congressman Richard Nixon's query as the House on American Activities Committee hunted communists spies, wasn't convicted of spying but of perjury, lying about it.
Various figures in the Iran-Contra scandal during the Reagan administration -- Oliver North, Rob McFarland, John Poindexter -- were convicted of cover-up charges, lying to Congress and so on. Though McFarland was pardoned, and North's and Poindexter's convictions overturned on appeal.
RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In one of the most difficult decisions in my presidency ...
MORTON: Half of Richard Nixon's White House staff -- well, it seemed like that anyway -- went to prison on Watergate cover-up charges, H.R. Haldeman, John Ehrlichman, Charles Colson and so on, and eventually Nixon himself resigned to avoid impeachment, not from the burglary -- there was no evidence he had advanced knowledge of that -- but for his role in the cover-up.
Bill Clinton?
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" is.
MORTON: Clinton was impeached for giving false testimony to the grand jury investigating Paula Jones' sexual harassment lawsuit and for obstruction of justice, though the Senate acquitted him.
Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life, not for betting on games but for refusing to admit he bet on games.
And Martha Stewart went to prison for making false statements about her stock dealings, not for the dealings themselves.
(on camera): And, of course, they nailed prohibition-era gangster Al Capone for tax evasion, not for any of the really heavy stuff he had one. Sometimes prosecutors take what they can get.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, we are still waiting to see what special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will take from this case. The CIA-White House leak investigation is just one of several investigations that are now under way in Washington.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is under federal investigation for the sale of stock in his family's hospital company one month before it fell in price sharply. And Tom DeLay recently stepped down as House majority leader after he was indicted on conspiracy and money laundering charges.
And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Has the leadership of both houses of Congress and senior officials at the White House ever before been under investigation simultaneously, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We will have the results later in the broadcast on your vote, and of course the answer.
Also ahead, outrage in Florida over shortages of essential supplies after Hurricane Wilma. A large outcry despite all of the residents being warned to evacuate south Florida days before the storm hit. We'll have a live report for you.
And a sudden reversal by the White House on a measure that was cutting the prevailing wages for all those working to rebuild the Gulf Coast, or at least potentially so.
And the deadly bird flu spreads further in Europe. We'll have the latest for you on the threat of a global pandemic next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Two days after Hurricane Wilma, many Florida residents remain unable to find food, fuel or water. Many of those residents, those frustrated residents, are furious at government officials who before Wilma arrived declared that Florida was ready for the hurricane.
David Mattingly reports from Oakland Park, Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Hurricane Wilma crashed into Florida and left behind an estimated $10 billion in damage. Floridians desperate for basic supplies are waiting, waiting in line for hours, for gas, water and ice. MARCIA JENKINS, OAKLAND PARK RESIDENT: I come today and I got to the end of the line, and this is what happened. No more ice. They said wait till the next truck.
CLAUDIA PATTLE, OAKLAND PARK RESIDENT: It was mass chaos, mass chaos. We had lines going all the way around the corner.
MATTINGLY: There are some signs of relief.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any water?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no water yet.
MATTINGLY: But in some places like this Wal-Mart, supplies ran out. Power after millions were left without electricity has been restored to over 600,000 people. Governor Jeb Bush said that the response to disaster did not meet his expectations, but that now is not the time to point fingers.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I'm going to have a no criticize zone established as we focus on recovery. And if anybody wants to blame anybody, let them blame me. Don't blame FEMA.
MATTINGLY: The secretary of Homeland Security promised more help is on the way.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We're leaning forward in terms of making sure we have commodities. We're making it available from all across the country. We're going to have airlift capabilities to get that in here and get it out to people as quickly as possible.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: And as ice distribution continued today, some people were recipients of some very well-traveled FEMA ice, ice that had actually gone to Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina. It was not used but sent back to Georgia for storage, and then was brought down here to Florida, to Jacksonville, then to West Palm, and finally distributed today to people in Hollywood -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, despite what Governor Bush would suggest, criticism certainly will be there, and there will be no exemption for FEMA or anyone else much to the Florida residents. But the fact is the state of Florida told residents to prepare for the storm, to get out, to prepare with adequate food and water throughout.
I'm not sure I quite understand the level of blame that's rising. I understand their frustration, but it seems somewhat strident given all of the warnings and all that has been done.
MATTINGLY: That is a good point, Lou. The rule of thumb usually is to have three days of food and water and whatever essentials you might have. We are here in day two, seeing a lot of people already without supplies, suggesting they didn't stock up at all.
So very possible people are getting hurricane weary and not doing the proper planning that they should. Of course, we saw a lot of people today who should have still had water and ice before the distributions even need to occur.
DOBBS: And thank you very much. David Mattingly. We appreciate it.
There's also rising anger among many American tourists who are still stranded in Mexico after Hurricane Wilma hit. As many as 10,000 American tourists still are unable to leave Cancun. Many of those tourists haven't had a shower for a week. Some have been sleeping on floors or in gardens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY FLORES, U.S. TOURIST: Four days. But we had to learn the hard way not to go vacation on hurricane season. It was rough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Well, as you might expect, many of those tourists are very upset with the U.S. State Department, but U.S. consular officials say they're doing everything possible, their words, to help those stranded tourists. Some of those tourists, however, they can't expect to leave until the earliest sometime this weekend, if then.
Now a weather problem that we usually don't see for at least another month. Residents in parts of the East Coast digging out from a rare October snowfall. The remnants of Hurricane Wilma, combining with a Nor'easter, helping fuel major snowstorms along the East Coast.
Heavy snowfall fell from Maine to West Virginia. Some parts of Vermont received more than a foot and a half of snow. Western Maryland was hit with a foot of snow. Tens of thousands of people there lost power.
New cases of avian flu reported today in southern Europe. Wild swans found in Croatia have tested positive for the deadliest strain of the disease. Croatia is close, of course, to the borders of western European nations Italy and Austria. This new case is raising new fears that western Europe may soon see its first case of avian flu.
And in China tonight, authorities report their third avian flu outbreak in a week. More than 500 chickens and ducks have died in this latest outbreak, and officials say China's system to contain the bird flu may now be breaking down.
Seventeen countries have confirmed cases of bird flu as of tonight. Human beings have come down with the disease in four east Asian countries, and 62 people have died from the disease.
The White House tonight facing possible criminal indictments. Its latest Supreme Court nominee under attack. And it's facing new criticism of its hurricane disaster response.
Yet through all of this, the White House has somehow found time to launch an attack on the satirical newspaper and Web site "The Onion." The White House wants "The Onion," by golly, to stop using the presidential seal on its Web site for its parody of the Bush weekly radio address.
The White House says using the presidential seal implies that the president approves of "The Onion" content. "Onion's" editor in chief says, "I'm surprised the president deems it wise to spend taxpayer money for his lawyers to write letters to 'The Onion.'"
We'll let you know how that case come out.
Still ahead, the Davis-Bacon Act, it will be back in force on the Gulf Coast next month. The White House, in a decidedly anti-middle class, anti-American worker decision to waive Davis-Bacon has decided to rescind it. Employers will once again be required to pay the prevailing wage. Fair pay for honest work. What a concept.
And President Bush's choice of Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court, it's under attack from one of the president's own former speechwriters. A surprising new advertising campaign. We'll show that to you here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Bush administration today decided to reverse one of its anti-worker policy decisions. The president today reinstated the Davis-Bacon Act which had been suspended for contractors involved in rebuilding along the Gulf Coast. We of course want to commend the leadership of Congressman George Miller for his fight to reverse the suspension of that important labor protection law.
In addition to Congressman Miller, senators Kennedy, Landrieu and Dorgan, as well as Jesse Jackson, all joined in the fight against this assault against American middle class workers.
And finally, it seems this administration has realized the importance of paying workers involved in the reconstruction a fair wage.
Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Suspending the Davis-Bacon Act prompted companies with federal cleanup contracts in the Gulf region to bring in outside workers, some of them illegal aliens willing to work for far less than the prevailing wage. In some cases, laborers earned less than $5.50 an hour. The White House, bowing to congressional pressure, agreed to reinstate the Davis-Bacon Act as of November 8.
Democrats have roundly criticized waiving the prevailing wage provision. REP. GEORGE MILLER (D), CALIFORNIA: American workers believe that their wages should be protected. They should not be undermined by the federal government. And that's what the president and a little right ring cabal of people were trying to do.
SYLVESTER: Republicans jumped on board and sent a letter to the White House, urging the president to reinstate Davis-Bacon before a congressional vote scheduled in two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the Democrats were joined by 37 Republicans led by Representative LaTourette and Representative LoBiondo that were going to vote to reverse his decision. So he had no choice. He knew that the votes weren't there for him to continue to cut these people's wages.
SYLVESTER: The reinstatement will not change the wages of those already working under contract. So far, the federal government has awarded $50 million in relief contracts. But it should make the contracting process from here on out more transparent and ensure displaced workers are first in line to rebuild their communities.
REP. STEVEN LATOURETTE (R), OHIO: When you don't hire people who live in the community, they don't pay taxes to support the schools and the fire service and all the things that you want them to do. So it's really a -- you create more problems than are needed. And again, we're thankful that the administration agreed with us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Today's decision means contractors will have to start submitting weekly payroll information that will confirm not only the wages that the workers are being paid, but also will provide oversight to make sure taxpayer money is not wasted and only legal workers are being hired.
And by the way, Lou, we asked Congressman George Miller, "Are you concerned that companies will try to rush to get new contracts before November 8, when Davis-Bacon is back in place?" And this was Miller's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILLER: No, I don't think that's going to happen. And if they did that, Lou Dobbs would kick their ass. And they would pay such a high price for that, that they would never, ever recover again from that kind of activity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
SYLVESTER: And that's your reputation, Lou, here in Congress, the give them hell attitude.
DOBBS: Well, I'll accept that. Quite a remarkable statement by the congressman. We appreciate it. Perhaps I might have phrased it more delicately.
Nah, we wouldn't phrase it more delicately. And good for the congressman for being straightforward. Plainspoken, we admire that here, don't we, Lisa?
SYLVESTER: We do indeed, Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.
Still ahead, a troubled nomination, a serious new setback. Why the Harriet Miers' nomination is in even greater trouble tonight.
And creeping anxiety and rising dread at the White House. We'll be talking about the latest developments in the CIA-White House leak case with three of the top political and legal analysts in the country.
And worsening relations between the United States and Canada? A bitter trade dispute pitting the United States against its neighbor to the north.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senate Republicans tonight voicing new concerns about the Harriet Miers nomination. They say they found a new example of Miers contradicting herself on the issue of abortion.
In a 1993 speech, Miers said a woman's right to an abortion was, in her words, "a matter of self-determination." Senate Republicans say this speech contradicts comment Miers made in the 1980s, when she said she supported an amendment that would ban most abortions.
Meanwhile, conservatives opposed to this nomination are opening up a new line of attack against this troubled nominee. A group called Citizens for Better Justice, led by former Bush speechwriter David Frum, are running ads sharply critical of Miers. These ads call upon the president to withdraw her nomination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even the best leaders make mistakes. Conservatives support President Bush, but not Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers. Judge Robert Bork says, I don't think she's qualified, and calls Miers' nomination a disaster on every level. And Rush Limbaugh says, I am totally behind the president
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: This is the first television ad campaign to target Miers. And, it is a strong one. And we want to remind to you tonight to vote in our poll -- has the leadership of both houses of Congress and senior officials at the White House ever been under investigation simultaneously before? Yes or no, cast your vote. And we'll have the results later in the broadcast. And, of course, with the answer. Joining me for what all is going on in Washington, and it is a great deal. John Fund, he's the highly-respected columnist at The Wall Street Journal. Jeffrey Toobin, equally highly-respected, and our senior legal analyst, David Gergen, former adviser to four presidents and well, we respect the heck out of you, too, Dave.
Let's start with you, there was a great gnashing of teeth today in Washington because indictments were not handed down. What are we to make of this?
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: You talking to me?
DOBBS: Yes, David.
GERGEN: All right, what do we make of it? Isn't it wonderful when all of Washington can't predict with accuracy, five days in advance, three days in advance, what's going to happen? I think it's good, it makes all of us a little more cautious.
DOBBS: And John, are you surprised that Washington is on tent or hooks here because of this?
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: I think we're going to get an indictment. We're probably not going to get many indictments. In fact, Mr. Fitzgerald may have to extend the grand jury. I think that since there is no underlying crime here, we're talking about obstruction of justice, or lying to a federal investigator --
DOBBS: It's an indicator?
FUND: That is an important crime. But, it makes it more difficult for the prosecutor to make the decision to go for the charges.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, but wait a second -- we don't know that there is no underlying crime here.
DOBBS: Well, John Fund does.
TOOBIN: Well, John Fund thinks.
FUND: No one in the Justice Department who thinks the crime applies here. Find someone at Justice Department who thinks the crime applies here. It doesn't.
TOOBIN: This is why we have grand juries -- grand juries investigate these matters and then make their decision. But the only people with access to the grand jury are the Fitzgerald prosecutors, not spectators at the Justice Department.
FUND: Our computer follows Justice Department guidelines. I don't think any reasonable prosecutor would pursue this case. Now, obstruction of justice maybe. But, it's just like Martha Stewart. It's not what she did; it's what might have been done to cover it up. DOBBS: Well, obviously what was done here is whether illegal or not, you know, I think we have to start with unseemly and sees what lies behind it, irrespective of the feelings at the Justice Department. Let me turn quickly to David Gergen.
John is suggesting that there's no crime here. I can hear a wailing.
GERGEN: Underlying crime.
DOBBS: Well, underlying crime. To your point -- what's your sense of it, David?
GERGEN: I don't know whether there's an underlying crime. I've never thought that Karl Rove, based on what we heard so far, was guilty of an underlying crime.
I don't know what Scooter Libby is engaged in. Regardless of what we know, I think it's wrong to minimize the importance of perjury or obstruction of justice if those charges come down.
DOBBS: You didn't mean to imply that, John, did you?
FUND: Of course not. What I did mean to imply thought is this administration is, I think, going to be hoisted by its own petard because they went after Joe Wilson who did not tell the truth about what happened in Niger and I think they went too far. The irony is that there are no heroes in this case. Nobody acquitted themselves well.
GERGEN: But, there is not an equivalence between what Joe Wilson did and obstruction of justice. There just isn't. And John, with all due respect, I appreciate the fact that there may be no underlying crime.
It was only a few years ago that people went out and hung Bill Clinton when there was no underlying crime. But, he got impeached for not telling the truth.
To dismiss this is being, well, they'll have a hard time deciding what to bring the case or not. Let's wait and see.
FUND: No, perjury is perjury. I'm simply saying the prosecutor is going to have to be extra careful in deciding to file the charges because there is no underlying crime. It is going to make it a little more difficult because he's dealing with classified documents to prove his case, to bring the case.
TOOBIN: I think John is revealing that the Republicans are having a hard time with a party line on this investigation, because they've tried out, well, perjury doesn't matter. Like Kay Bailey Hutchison said on "Meet the Press."
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: But you know, Joe Wilson is a bad guy. Well, so what, if he's a bad guy. That's irrelevant. And they've tried attacking Pat Fitzgerald in certain circles. He's a very apolitical guy. It's going to be difficult to shift discussion, if there are indictments.
DOBBS: I've got two concerns.
First, if you will, the tactical level. The fact that we've got FBI agents out talking with the neighbors of the Plame/Wilson's. At this stage, two years in this investigation, to find out whether she was presumably known or not known. That is going to the issue of the underlying crime to me strikes me as a little late. I don't know how these things normally go.
TOOBIN: You might be cleaning up the last details of an investigation right before an indictment.
DOBBS: But, the other part is, and David Gergen, you spoke to the issue. I mean, this country went through a Whitewater investigation, we went through the sex crimes investigation, if you will, from Kenneth Starr, a special counsel. We are now two weeks, two months, two years into an investigation and we still have no sense whether there is an underlying crime.
We still don't know that. We are spending inordinate amounts time creating great public distractions when this country is faced with some of the most profound issues in its history right now. Every man, woman and child in this country has far, far more important things for its chief officials to be focused on, it seems to me, David.
GERGEN: That, I totally agree with. And these investigations go on and on and on, as you know in the Cisneros case, he's still under investigation five years after he left -- after Bill Clinton left office.
DOBBS: You hang that one up for the Democratic party. Good job Democrats, good job Republicans. Both parties are working in partisan interests, not in the national interest.
GERGEN: I think that part of it is absolutely right. We've been engaged in too many days now with speculating about whether somebody's going to be indicted or not. It's gone on and on and on. These cases almost have the Dicken-sian quality, and people die before they're over.
And I do think we get awfully distracted from questions about jobs and competition and some of the deeper issues, and that is a major -- I think that's been a major, major problem with a lot of these investigations. We are criminalizing way too much in my judgment.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin.
TOOBIN: I'm going to dissent a little bit from that. This was an investigation that was called for by George Tenet, the head of the CIA.
DOBBS: Who some reports suggest is the one who told the vice president the identity of --
TOOBIN: That wasn't criminal for him to do.
DOBBS: No, there is nothing wrong with that. But I'm looking at the irony of the process.
TOOBIN: And if there is perjury that was committed or obstruction of justice, good. It should be investigated.
FUND: I trust Patrick Fitzgerald. I think he's one of the finest prosecutors. One of the reasons why we're in this mess is, I think he realizes how difficult bringing prosecutions in this case will be. That's how good a prosecutor he is.
I think one administration official is going to be indicted. But, I don't think we want to blow this out of proportion. Somebody did something wrong. That doesn't mean there was a conspiracy.
GERGEN: We don't know what he's going to charge yet. I think we should wait and see.
DOBBS: And I'm struggling, I don't know about you, Jeffrey, with the concept that, if individual crimes were committed, to what extent it matters if there were a conspiracy?
FUND: I think the administration got into a whole lot of trouble on this. I don't think there was a coordinated conspiracy to discredit and destroy people.
TOOBIN: We shall see.
DOBBS: On those words. Words to etch in stone.
TOOBIN: Keep me wrong if you say that.
DOBBS: David Gergen, thank you for being here. John Fund, thank you for being here. Jeffrey Toobin, thank you for being here and uttering words that will be memorialized for some time to come.
TOOBIN: Way out on the limb on that one.
DOBBS: We'll see. All right, thank you very much.
The United States today ordered China to prove it's taking steps to crack down on counterfeiting and piracy, all in of that, by the way, costs this country about $250 billion a year.
The United States was joined by Japan and Switzerland in calling for a review under the rules of the World Trade Organization. The group wants detailed information about the number of prosecutions and convictions related to intellectual property theft.
U.S. software companies alone say they lost $3.5 billion last year because of Chinese piracy. Intellectual theft costs, as I said, this country about a quarter of a trillion dollars. And it's good that we have the WTO to fall back upon, since the U.S. government apparently seems to lack the resources to deal with a national interest.
The United States tonight is also locked in a bitter trade dispute with Canada. A dispute that is raising new questions about Canada's reliability as an American ally. This dispute, and we're not making light of it, is over the lumber trade.
And it follows Canada's threat to divert oil away from the United States to China. It also comes after disagreements over the war in Iraq, border security and missile defense. Kitty Pilgrim has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Protesters in Canada call Condoleezza Rice a war criminal. She was also under fire on the issue of trade. Canadians said the U.S. can't be trusted.
REPORTER: How are other countries around the world going to be able to trust the word of the United States on anything?
PILGRIM: She called for a little perspective.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think the word of the United States has been as good as gold in it's international dealings and it's agreements. I think it's extremely important not to speak in apocalyptical language about this issue.
PILGRIM: U.S.-Canada relations have deteriorated so badly that President Bush on his last trip to Canada quipped he was surprised Canadians were waving in a civilized way when his motorcade passed.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave, with all five fingers, for their hospitality.
(LAUGHTER)
PILGRIM: Lumber is only four percent of trade.
But meanwhile, the United States supports Canada's industries: 85 percent of Canadian exports are bought by U.S. customers; some $250 billion worth from machinery, furniture, building materials and farm products.
The United States is also Canada's biggest customer for oil, but Canadian officials recently gloated about the possibility of selling oil to China, clearly to aggravate the United States.
Prime Minister Martin in a New York speech earlier this month said the United States has to pay back the $4 billion in duties it collected on Canadian lumber.
PAUL MARTIN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: This is nonsense. More than that, it is a breach of faith.
Countries must live up to their agreements. The duties must be refunded. Free trade must be fair trade.
PILGRIM: It is fair -- the World Trade Organization ruled in favor of the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the Canadian prime minister is grandstanding for the public.
He has said the U.S. is out to humiliate Canada, while Canadian elections are expected early next year, and with the Canadian voters it serves political purpose to push back on the United States about trade, so the climate will likely stay tense for a little while longer -- Lou?
DOBBS: I am shocked and dismayed to learn that our neighbors to the north have government officials who play politics just like ours do down here in the barbarian south.
PILGRIM: And the thing they don't point out is that the lumber trade is subsidized, but they don't mention that.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: It is -- I think that was pointed out pretty well at the WTO.
But I think it's humorous that Paul Martin and company would get so excited over what is three percent of a trade deal and one in which the Canadians are doing very well, thank you.
We're good pals, good neighbors. We'll have politics in both countries, see how it all works out. I'm sure it will work out well for all.
Kitty Pilgrim, thank you.
Still ahead here, Able Danger -- it's a controversy that is only beginning to take shape. 9/11 Commission member, former senator Slade Gorton says Able Danger did not prove its case that 9/11 could have been prevented. My guest tonight says that is nonsense.
And Paul Hackett, veteran of the Iraq war, almost won a seat in the House of Representatives, now running for the Senate. And he's outraged by President Bush's war strategy. He's our guest here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former 9/11 commissioner, former senator Slade Gorton joined me as a guest last night on this broadcast. We talked about the secret Pentagon project, Able Danger, that Congressman Curt Weldon claims identified Mohamed Atta a year before Atta's involvement in the September 11th attacks.
Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer was one of the top members of Able Danger. There was no mention of Able Danger or its warnings in the 9/11 Commission report. And Gorton discussed why, in his opinion, that was the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SLADE GORTON, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: We learned about Able Danger from Colonel Shaffer, who briefed four of our staffers on it in Kabul, Afghanistan, eight or nine months before our report came out. We immediately followed up on it. We got all of the Able Danger materials from the Department of Defense and they had nothing to do with Mohamed Atta or with any of the other conspirators.
So Able Danger was -- it got very interesting, it didn't identify Mohamed Atta a year beforehand. Unfortunately, no one identified Mohamed Atta beforehand.
Able Danger was simply irrelevant to our report and still is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Colonel Anthony Shaffer's attorney Mark Zaid joins me now.
Mark, thanks for being with us.
MARK ZAID, COL. ANTHONY SHAFFER'S ATTORNEY: Thank you.
DOBBS: What is your response to what Slade Gorton said there?
ZAID: Well, I think the first thing is that someone should remind Senator Gorton he's no longer talking on the Senate floor where he has immunity from defamation, because he's going perilously close to crossing the line with his attacks on Tony Shaffer who, by the way, is -- his statements are being supported by half a dozen or so more career civil servants within the military and the defense contracting community.
So it's just nonsense with his statements that, in fact, he's talking about things he just doesn't know, and that's the problem.
He doesn't know because the Defense Department never gave the 9/11 Commission the crucial information.
DOBBS: Never gave them the information.
Dr. Eileen Pricer (ph), Captain Scott Philpott, both DOD, and J.D. Smith (ph), a defense contractor -- did any of those individuals who support your client, Colonel Shaffer -- have any of them made any progress in communicating with the 9/11 Commission, with the government here?
ZAID: Well, Shaffer spoke to them in October of '03, as the senator said, and then they asked the DOD for more information. When the DOD -- what we didn't know at the time was that the Defense Department had destroyed millions and millions of the documents that the Able Danger team had come up with, so it's no surprise that the commission then didn't have the information.
Then, Scott Philpott goes to them in July of '04, only about a week or so before the committee's report was issued, so it was too late to do anything.
Where the senator fails to address is the issue that if the commission had gone back to Shaffer in January of '04, when he tried not once but twice to talk to them and said one sentence, "Mr. Shaffer, we're not finding any documents that support your claims. Can you point us in the direction we should go?"
If they had done that, Shaffer could have gone back to his office at DIA and obtained the info.
And J.D. Smith, my other client, actually had a copy of the chart -- the chart that everyone is looking for -- with Mohamed Atta's name and photo, had it hanging in his wall. That chart then was destroyed several months later, and the DIA destroyed Shaffer's documents.
DOBBS: I'm unclear about who would take a picture, a chart off a wall for an active DOD project without their permission or knowledge?
ZAID: No.
By this time, Able Danger actually had ceased by late 2000, early 2001.
And the copy of the chart that J.D. Smith had was a draft copy that he had just kept as a memento. And when he moved his offices, the paper the chart was on was so frail it just fell apart and was destroyed. That didn't happen until the summer of 2004.
If the commission had actually followed up and done its due diligence, the chart would exist today in their hands and what Senator Gorton says was irrelevant probably would have been featured prominently in their report.
DOBBS: As another member of the commission, Tim Roemer, has said on this broadcast, he never saw the chart, no one has ever been able to produce the chart, he would have loved to have seen the chart.
ZAID: Absolutely.
And I can tell you also that Senator Gorton is not necessarily speaking for the entire 9/11 Commission.
I know of meetings with at least one commission member -- and it's not who you just referenced -- who does not agree with what Senator Gorton is saying.
DOBBS: Well, let's find out, what is the next step here? Because Congressman Curt Weldon, who is doing an outstanding job of advocacy for truth here and trying to get to the truth, and Senator Specter holing hearings on the Judiciary Committee on this very issue -- what happens next? How do we get to the truth?
ZAID: Yes.
And the Defense Department has been blocking the Senate Judiciary from pursuing their investigation. I had to testify in the place of my clients because DOD wouldn't allow it.
We're hopeful that somewhere within the grand canyon of the government and in the defense contractors that additional information, and especially the documents, someone will find some copies.
We do know that there is at least another person coming forward soon who will say the same assertion that Shaffer and Philpott and Price and the others have been.
So what's their motive? What exactly did these people have to gain by lying? Even the Defense Department says that they're credible witnesses, but unfortunately there is no documents. But we know in this town, just because there's no documents -- hey, 18 minutes off the Nixon tape disappeared. Do we think there wasn't anything on those 18 minutes? We just have to find it.
DOBBS: Mark Zaid, we thank you for being here representing Colonel Anthony Shaffer. We will continue along with you to try to get to the bottom as best we can of this remarkable controversy on able danger...
ZAID: Thank you.
DOBBS: And who knew what a year before 9/11.
Congressman Curt Weldon as we just mentioned, leading an investigation being and a remarkable advocate for both your clients and for the truth here. Thank you.
Still ahead, Marine Corps Major Paul Hackett who wants to be the first Iraq War veteran to win a seat in the United States Senate. He's incensed over the war in Iraq and he is solidly against the president's strategy that he's employing in that war. He's our guest. He comes to us tonight from Cincinnati, Ohio. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Iraq War veteran Paul Hackett came awfully close to pulling up a stunning political upset in Ohio this summer. Hackett, a Marine Corps reserve major, came within 4,000 votes of beating his Republican opponent in a special congressional election in a heavily Republican district.
Hackett sharply criticized the president's handling of the Iraq War. Now Hackett has announced he's running for the U.S. Senate, a seat currently held by Republican Mike DeWine. Paul Hackett joins us tonight from Cincinnati.
Paul, good to have you here.
PAUL HACKETT (D), OHIO SENATE CANDIDATE: Thank you, sir, for having me.
DOBBS: You have jumped into it, a remarkable showing in the congressional battle.
HACKETT: Thank you.
DOBBS: You have said this is a matter of principle which are, if you will, if I can ask you to identify three -- quickly -- three defining principles for Paul Hackett and the reason you're running for the Senate.
HACKETT: Well, I'm running for the Senate because I believe in some pretty core American principles, fundamental principles -- freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from religion, freedom from want, freedom from fear. I mean, those are core fundamental American principles and freedoms that I think represent the Democratic party and represent, frankly, all Americans, and that's what my fight is about.
DOBBS: Well, Sherrod Brown who is now in the primary with you, three days after you announced, he said he's going to run, a seven- term congressman up from Ohio. How is that battle going to shape up? What issues will differentiate the two of you?
HACKETT: Well, let me say this: my battle is not with Sherrod Brown, and, frankly, my battle isn't really with Mike DeWine. My battle is for Ohioans and Americans and to the fact that I do not represent the status quo, and I'm not happy with the status quo, that is where my battle is going to be waged -- against the status quo and on behalf of working Ohioans and working Americans.
And if that differentiates me from my opponents, then I'm happy with that. And if Ohioans are happy with the status quo, if they look in their checkbook and they think that they are better off today than they were five years ago, I don't think they're going to vote for me.
DOBBS: Well, in Ohio, a complicated political scene there, in part, because Sherrod Brown was a supporter of yours in your congressional race, now you are rivals, competitors, if you will, for that opportunity to run against DeWine. You focused on the war in Iraq. What would you do differently today. Senator Kerry said we ought to bring home 20,000 troops over Christmas if everything goes right. What do you think?
HACKETT: Well, this is what I think specifically about the war in Iraq. It has been woefully mismanaged by this administration. I cannot look at what has taken place in Iraq under this administration's management and point to one objective success.
Take a look at the security situation on the ground in Iraq. It's worse today than it was six months ago, than it was a year ago, than it was two years ago. Look at the infrastructure, it's worse off.
DOBBS: In fairness, elections have been held, the first time in the country's history. They have just approved a constitution. Those are not inconsiderable achievements.
HACKETT: But is that what the American people signed up for when we gave authorization via our representatives to go spread democracy at the business end of an M-16? I don't think so. Most Americans do not agree that that is the appropriate use of our military. Our military has been misused and mismanaged in this fight over in Iraq. The righteous fight was in Afghanistan.
DOBBS: Paul Hackett, we're going to continue the conversation as we advance toward the primary next year and as we advance toward the general election. We thank you very much, Paul Hackett.
HACKETT: Thank you, Mr. Dobbs.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight, and a preview of what's coming up tomorrow. Stay with us.
And we'll have the answer to that important question as to whether or not we've seen the likes of these investigations in Washington, D.C. before. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll: 70 percent of you -- almost 70 percent say this is the first time the leadership of both Houses of Congress and senior officials of the White House have been under investigation simultaneously.
And you are right. We have the smartest audience in television. Thanks for being with us. Join us tomorrow night. Salman Rushdie will be my guest. Please be with us. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now with Heidi Collins.
Hi, Heidi.
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