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Nancy Grace
Dyleski Arraigned; Michael Jackson`s PI Behind Bars
Aired October 27, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in a California courtroom. Sixteen-year-old Scott Dyleski, the only named suspect in the bludgeoning death of Pamela Vitale, wife of California defense attorney Daniel Horowitz, brought in handcuffs and foot shackles to court.
Today, formal charge, murder one. And sources revealed that, after he allegedly beat and stabbed Pamela to death, he went to his girlfriend`s house for sex. Bye-bye, insanity defense. And hello, state`s witness.
And tonight, Michael Jackson`s private eye behind bars, possibly facing new charges, wire tapping. Will audiotapes he made for a-list celebrity clients, including any and all of their dirty laundry, be played in open court?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Tonight, Harriet Miers backs out on a bid to become the next U.S. Supreme Court justice, under a storm of criticism, even among conservatives.
And Hollywood`s private eye to the stars, including Michael Jackson, Anthony Pellicano, what role, if any, did he play in kicking up dirt on Jackson`s young accusers? Did Pellicano`s alleged dirty phone taps include a-list high-power Hollywood stars?
But first, breaking news in the Pamela Vitale murder case. Sixteen- year-old Scott Dyleski, accused of fatally bludgeoning, stabbing the wife of high-profile criminal defense attorney Dan Horowitz, first appearance in court today, amidst shocking reports Dyleski had sex with a girlfriend just after murdering Pamela. And now, the court wants a gag.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID FLINN, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE: The complaint that was filed in this matter of Mr. Dyleski was filed on October 21st and alleges that you committed a felony in violation of Penal Code Section 187, murder, on October 15, 2005, in Lafayette, California, in Contra Costa County, and that you unlawfully and with malice aforethought brought murder to one Pamela Vitale, a human being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. Ted, you were there at the courthouse. Bring us up-to-date.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I`ll bring you up-to-date with some breaking news that we`re just hearing right now. According to some Bay Area television stations we`re working on, verifying this, as well.
Esther Fielding, Scott Dyleski`s mother, was arrested today for her possible involvement with covering up the murder after the fact. She`s being held, according to this Bay Area television station, on $500,000 bail, and was arrested reportedly about the same time that her son made his second court appearance today.
Scott Dyleski was in court for a short period of time today. The 16- year-old looked a lot like a 16-year-old, unlike the photos that we have seen from his high school yearbook, where he looks much older and deranged. Here he looked clean-cut. He had his hair cut.
He didn`t say much. He nodded a few times while the judge read the charges against him. He, of course, is facing first-degree murder.
He will be back in court next month, on the 9th of next month. This was continued today because they had another change of lawyer. He`ll be represented by the public defender from here on out, it looks like. His lawyer had to drop out because of a conflict of interest and, according to his receptionist, some financial issues.
But really, the big news right now, at this point, is Dyleski`s mother, apparently, also in custody now for presumably helping her son to cover up the murder of Pam Vitale. And of course, his mother knew both Daniel Horowitz, as you know, and Pam fairly well. They were neighbors.
So a shocking development. And we`re trying to confirm that. CNN`s trying to confirm that. But local television reporters` reports are reporting that tonight.
GRACE: Breaking news reported by Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent. The mother of Scott Dyleski, Ester Fielding, behind bars, arrested on helping to cover up evidence. You know, back to Ted Rowlands, Ted, one of my first questions today was, who was in the courtroom for Scott Dyleski today? Was his mother there?
I was immediately told no, but there was an empty seat reserved for her, but she never showed up.
ROWLANDS: Yes, that`s what we were told, too, that there was a seat there. And in fact, a pool cameraman was told that his mother has a seat in the courtroom waiting for her. But, apparently, if this report is true, she was being arrested about that same time and so obviously was not in court because she was being presumably booked.
And we are told that -- we are getting confirmation now that CNN is also confirming that Ester Fielding was taken into custody tonight and in is custody for accomplice to murder after the fact, meaning that she helped her son cover this up.
And that is hard to believe, given her relationship, obviously -- she`s looking out for her son, but this is a pretty tight knit neighborhood. And they knew Daniel Horowitz. And as you`ve reported, Daniel Horowitz did a lot of pro bono work for this family. And they apparently were working together in some capacity.
GRACE: You know, Ted Rowlands, you`ve covered so many courtroom battles. I was wondering, given the nature of the crime -- I went in the crime scene, as you well know, and saw so much of Pamela`s blood, blood spatter up as high as I am, four, five feet tall on the wall. And I wondered, what became of all of the evidence?
Of course, not all of that evidence has been released. Do we have any idea, Ted, what evidence she allegedly helped get rid of?
ROWLANDS: We don`t know specifics, because we`re just obviously learning about the arrest. But I can tell you this, that one of the warrants was for Ester Fielding`s van, which was parked on the property. And in that van was a duffle bag. And in that duffle bag, according to the warrants filed with the court, was clothing and a glove, both with blood on them.
So if she was involved in this, possibly, that may come into play here. But we do know for sure that, in that van, on the property, was a duffle bag that they were very interested in, which had blood on it. And the autopsy -- or not the autopsy, but the crime scene forensics came back that the killer used gloves during the commission of the crime. That`s what the district attorney believes in his filings.
GRACE: Take a listen to what happened in court just a few hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLINN: Mr. Dyleski, am I pronouncing your name correctly?
SCOTT DYLESKI, ACCUSED OF MURDER: You are. Thank you.
FLINN: Dyleski, thank you, sir. The complaint that was filed in this matter of Mr. Dyleski was filed on October 21st and alleges that you committed a felony in violation of Penal Code Section 187, murder, on October 15, 2005, in Lafayette, California, in Contra Costa County, and that you unlawfully and with malice aforethought brought murder to one Pamela Vitale, a human being.
TOM MCKENNA, FORMER LAWYER OF SCOTT DYLESKI: Good afternoon, your honor. Tom McKenna appearing on behalf of the minor. I have to declare a conflict on this case based on my prior representation of a client on another matter. I`ve gone over that with my client. He understands. I need to withdraw from the case, and he has no objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to go straight out to Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent standing by there at the courthouse. It`s my understanding that Dyleski was double-shackled, hand and foot. Now, this courtroom that he was in, was it a regular court or was it a juvenile court?
ROWLANDS: The regular courtroom that is used for all arraignments. And he was behind a barrier, a glass barrier, and a wall, basically, which separates the defendants from the courtroom itself. And this is where defendants stay until trial typically. And then, once they`re in front of a jury, they`re allowed out of that sort of holding pen area.
But during the preliminary stags in this courthouse, at least, that is how they were treated. And that is how he was treated today. And as you know, he is being tried as an adult, tried as an adult, charged as an adult, even know he is 16.
They say that, because of the nature of this crime, that they are seeking the adult court. And they`ve asked and they`ve been granted to charge him as an adult, meaning he`s facing 26 to life if he is convicted of the charges that he now faces.
GRACE: And, of course, his birthday is Halloween eve. He will turn 17 years old in just a few days. Take a listen to Gloria Allred, who is now part of this case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: My client has an attorney. And she is not going to be discussing, nor will I be discussing, what her feelings are about this case at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last time I saw him, I said hello to him. And he sort of looked at me like he was totally vacant. And I thought, "Well, I know he heard me, but just staring at me like he`s never met me before."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So, Ted Rowlands, were special circumstances alleged today?
ROWLANDS: No, not yet. The charges are as they were when they were filed. And that does not have enhancement, a special circumstance. If the district attorney wants to, if the evidence warrants, the district attorney can obviously change the charges and add a special circumstance.
And if that was the case, then Scott Dyleski could face life without the possibility of parole. Because he`s a minor, he cannot face the possibility of the death penalty.
Now, Gloria Allred is involved in this case because now there is a girlfriend involved in the case. And she was identified in one of the search warrants filed with the court as well.
According to the search warrant, Dyleski was with this girlfriend the night of the murder. And, in that same filing, Ester Fielding`s name was mentioned, Dyleski`s mother. Apparently, according to this warrant, Dyleski was told by his mother to stay at his girlfriend`s house the night of the murder, because she said the streets were all blocked off. Now, whether or not that factors into the accessory charges that she is now facing, we`ll have to wait and see when she makes her first court appearance, presumably tomorrow.
GRACE: To psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall joining us out of California, based on what Ted Rowlands is telling us and what we have confirmed as well, Scott Dyleski now accused of murder one. But also, as part of those facts, Bethany Marshall, that he went after bludgeoning Pamela to death over to his girlfriend`s house and had sex.
You know what? Bye-bye, insanity defense. And hello, state`s witness. There is no boyfriend-girlfriend privilege to the grand jury or a jury. She`s got to talk.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, Nancy, I know this seems like a complete mind-blower that this young man could kill somebody and then go to his girlfriend`s house and have sex. But if you understand the three part process involved in rage killings, it actually does make sense.
And part one is that the person develops the wish to kill somebody, usually after a series of unmanageable events in their life. And in this case, we know this man`s sister was killed in a car crash three years ago.
Second is the act itself. And I call this cruising for a bruising, because sometimes the perpetrator doesn`t yet know who the victim will be, but goes and kind of picks a fight in order to set the provocation for murder. And then, finally, there`s great relief after the act itself. And the perpetrator goes about life as if everything`s normal.
GRACE: You know, speaking of his demeanor, I want to go back to Ted Rowlands who was in the courtroom today there in California, what was his demeanor and who was in the courtroom?
ROWLANDS: His demeanor was the intent -- I mean, he seemed very alert. He looked very young. And he is very young, obviously. He`s just turning 17 this weekend. But he`s got a boyish look to him, much different than you see in that picture in his high school yearbook.
And he seemed like he understood everything and was intent. He nodded with the judge as the judge asked for clarification on the pronunciation of his name. And then, when the judge read the charges, he also nodded along.
Present in the courtroom was his attorney, that has bowed out of the case, a public defender who has now taken over the case, and then Hal Jewett (ph), who is handling the case for the state, and then a roomful of reporters.
As you know, this case has received a lot of media attention. And that was evident today in the courtroom. One of the other things that was decided today was that there is a temporary gag order until November 10th, when it can be hashed out in court.
But the judge granted a gag order in this case, at least until it can be argued in court by all the interested parties.
GRACE: Were there any members of his family there at all?
ROWLANDS: No. And as we talked about earlier, there was a seat waiting there for his mother, but his mother was under arrest, presumably at the time and didn`t make it. There was a neighbor, close friend of Daniel and Pam`s, who was there.
He was there and afterwards talked a little bit about just the crime itself and how it rocked this neighborhood. But no family members for Scott Dyleski.
GRACE: And no real words that mattered from Dyleski?
ROWLANDS: No. He didn`t answer to the charges. He didn`t say anything of note. And he`ll be back in court November 9th. Presumably, at that point, he`ll enter a plea.
But because the public defender just got the case, she asked the judge for more time. And, of course, as you might imagine, the state had no problem with that, because she literally just got the case.
GRACE: Before we go to break, Ted, I want to clarify one thing. The charge is murder one, and no special circumstances yet discussed?
ROWLANDS: Correct. But that could change, depending on the evidence. And, at this point, he`s facing a maximum of 26 years to life.
GRACE: Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent, standing by today. Scott Dyleski`s appearance in court, formal charges read out. No plea entered. We`ll all be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLINN: Mr. Dyleski, am I pronouncing your name correctly?
SCOTT DYLESKI, ACCUSED OF MURDER: You are. Thank you.
FLINN: Dyleski, thank you, sir. The complaint that was filed in this matter of Mr. Dyleski was filed on October 21st and alleges that you committed a felony in violation of Penal Code Section 187, murder, on October 15, 2005, in Lafayette, California, in Contra Costa County, and that you unlawfully and with malice aforethought brought murder to one Pamela Vitale, a human being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM MCKENNA, FORMER LAWYER OF SCOTT DYLESKI: Good afternoon, your honor. Tom McKenna appearing on behalf of the minor. I have to declare a conflict on this case based on my prior representation of a client on another matter. I`ve gone over that with my client. He understands. I need to withdraw from the case, and he has no objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Sixteen-year-old Scott Dyleski in court today, getting formally charged with murder one, in the brutal bludgeoning death of Pamela Vitale, the wife of our friend and colleague defense attorney Daniel Horowitz.
Straight out to attorney and managing editor of TMZ.com, Harvey Levin. Why no formal plea today? And what do you make of now the mom behind bars?
HARVEY LEVIN, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ.COM: Well, it`s stunning, Nancy. I mean, obviously, in this case, where you have a new lawyer coming on board who really doesn`t know the facts of the case, you don`t want to saddle that lawyer with a plea by the lawyer who`s leaving, so it made total sense that the lawyer get a couple of weeks to get up to speed, to read all of his search warrants and all the other information, and interview her client.
It`s really incredible about the mother. And, you know, what I`m wondering, Nancy -- the mother is now charged with being an accessory after the fact. What I`m finding absolutely bizarre, the girlfriend, he`s having sex with the girlfriend hours after the murder.
Don`t you think, at some point, she might say, "Gee, honey, why do you have blood and cuts all over you?" And that`s why this is raising new questions for me.
You know, she now has a lawyer. She`s being represented by a lawyer who now specializes in representing the girlfriends of accused murders, Gloria Allred. And, you know, she gets a lawyer. And I`m wondering, what was it that she saw?
I mean, it`s hard for me to believe that this guy was unmarked, because I`ve heard that he had marks on his face. So what`s going on there?
GRACE: Well, you know, clearly, she saw the marks. And that is why, I predict, she`s going to be a state`s witness. There is no privilege like attorney/client, husband/wife...
(CROSSTALK)
LEVIN: But let me ask you this, Nancy: What if she said, "Look, you know, if I saw something and I didn`t report it," what if she takes the Fifth?
GRACE: Well, I don`t think, under any stretch of the imagination, that by her seeing cuts on his arms or face that implicates her in a murder.
Let`s go straight out to Debra Opri. Harvey is absolutely correct. While it may defy common sense, I don`t think it makes her in any part a party to a crime.
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know I love you, Harvey. I just don`t know if you`ve been practicing recently. Just because he`s got cuts and scratches, he may have had a plausible explanation and she dismissed it as that, he was in a fight, or whatever.
But this girl hiring a lawyer, Gloria Allred coming into yet another case, I don`t want this case to become a media circus. I`m friends with Dan Horowitz. This is the last think I would want. As far as her turning state`s witness, absolutely, Nancy. She`s going to be the key witness, because she`s the one who saw him right after the crime.
GRACE: And, you know, Lauren Lake, come on, Dyleski went and had sex with his girlfriend, allegedly right after bludgeoning Pamela to death. You know he told her what happened.
OPRI: No, no, no.
GRACE: No, you don`t think he told her what happened?
OPRI: No, no. For what purpose, Nancy, to admit a crime? I think he had an excuse why he had the cuts and scratches. But, you know, if you think about what was going through this young man`s mind, I think it was a rage killing. I think, in terms of him releasing himself, showering, getting cleaned up, having a sip of water, leaving the crime scene and going to see his girlfriend, I think, in many ways, it might have emasculated him. But this is a question for your psych analyst. I`m a criminal defense attorney.
GRACE: Lauren Lake, what do you think of it?
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what I think of it is that he allegedly committed a crime. I mean, to quote one of my favorite hip-hop songs, "Hold up, wait a minute," OK?
Last I heard, he is innocent until proven guilty and he has not had a trial yet. And so, therefore, we can speculate as to what happened, and what scars he had, and what the girlfriend saw, and what she didn`t see. But we don`t know yet if he alone acted or if he acted in concert with someone, if someone else was there, if someone else did the beating and he happened to be there.
This boy is hooked up in some type of marijuana growing ring with credit cards being stolen. We don`t know if this boy is acting alone or what`s going on in this case yet. And I think we need to wait to figure it out.
GRACE: One thing I do want to find out, Harvey, is when, if ever, special circumstances will be added to the charge that could result in life without parole?
LEVIN: Well, you know, my understanding, Nancy, is that this could be done, certainly up to the preliminary hearing. And the special circumstances that I think -- that, you know, that I know everybody is talking about right now, the felony of burglary, if he went there with the intent to take something out of the Vitale house.
That would constitute a special circumstance or felony murder. And he could get life without parole, if they decide to charge that. They don`t have to make that decision right now. They can make it at some point in the future.
GRACE: Well, also, under Paragraph 14, on special circumstances, if the murder was especially cruel or heinous, that also qualifies as a special circumstance.
I agree with you, Harvey. Felony at the time of murder and heinous act, cruel act, could be two possible special circumstances alleged that could result in life without parole.
On another note, tonight, we have not given up. Police still looking for 26-year-old Sue Ann Ray. Sue Ann Ray missing from Woodstock, Georgia, since August 26th. A flurry of phone calls between Sue Ann Ray`s estranged husband and his family right around the time she went missing. It caught police attention, but no sign of Sue Ann.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDY CHASM, SUE ANN`S SISTER: She`s my only sister. And somebody took her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The reward up tonight to $105,000. If you have information on this girl, Sue Ann Ray, please call 770-294-7231.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Scott Dyleski in court today, formally charged in the bludgeoning death of Pamela Vitale. To investigative reporter Diane Dimond, why a gag order?
DIANE DIMOND, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s a disturbing trend, Nancy. You know what happened at the Scott Peterson case. I can tell you first- hand what happened at the Michael Jackson case.
They do it to keep the court officials quiet, the attorneys quiet, the witnesses quiet, and those who represent the witnesses. And I think maybe it was directed at your friend and mine, Gloria Allred, in part.
It`s only temporary. But on the 10th of November, they`re going to come back and ask for it to be made permanent. I hope they don`t get it. It doesn`t make for a good open court system.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID FLINN, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE: The complaint that was filed in this matter of Mr. Dyleski was filed on October 21st and alleges that you committed a felony in violation of Penal Code Section 187, murder, on October 15, 2005, in Lafayette, California, in Contra Costa County, and that you unlawfully and with malice aforethought brought murder to one Pamela Vitale, a human being.
TOM MCKENNA, FORMER LAWYER OF SCOTT DYLESKI: Good afternoon, your honor. Tom McKenna appearing on behalf of the minor. I have to declare a conflict on this case based on my prior representation of a client on another matter. I`ve gone over that with my client. He understands. I need to withdraw from the case, and he has no objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Thank you for being with us.
Sixteen-year-old Scott Dyleski in court today, hearing formal charges read against him, murder one in the bludgeoning death of Pamela Vitale, the wife of our friend and colleague, Daniel Horowitz.
And now breaking news tonight, the mother of Scott Dyleski, also behind bars. That`s right, Esther Fielding behind bars on a $500,000 bond. For what? Accomplice to murder after the fact. Translation: Some sort of cover-up.
Straight back to investigative reporter Diane Dimond. So you`ve got the mother in the mix as well as the girlfriend. We do know, Diane Dimond, that one of the last search warrants of record was on the girlfriend`s home. So, clearly, they thought they could get something forensic from the home not just her testimony about what he said.
DIMOND: Well, right. If he`s at the girlfriend`s home and they`re having sex just hours after this murder, he`s likely taken his clothes off. They were probably looking for more of the bloody clothes.
I think it`s really, really significant, Nancy, that this mother has now been arrested. You know, any small town -- and I`m not saying it disparagingly -- but a police department, like the one we`re dealing with here is going to tread very lightly in pressing charges against a 16-year- old.
They`re going to tread even more lightly when they start charging the mother for doing something after the fact. I think maybe Ted Rowlands has it right, that they found in her car a glove and some clothing that appeared to have blood on it. You know lab testing is going on right now. If she was trying to get rid of some of that evidence, boy, they`re going to come down on her like a ton of bricks.
GRACE: Like a hammer. And, Harvey Levin, also, apparently in the affidavit used for her arrest, it states she told her son, Dyleski, not to come home that evening because of police presence and the traffic was blocked. You know, that can be interpreted in a lot of different ways.
LEVIN: Yes, you know, that feels a little thin to me to turn somebody into an accessory after the fact, because I think the reality is, it probably was an area that was completely blocked off. And we don`t know that, if Scott did it, we don`t know that the mother knew at that time. We don`t know when...
GRACE: Well, if she stashed those bloody items in her van, I guess she did know.
LEVIN: That`s a whole other...
GRACE: And then you`ve got her telling him not to come home because of police.
LEVIN: That is a whole other opera. If indeed she did that, if she stashed blood clothes, a glove in the duffle bag, classic accessory after the fact. I think merely though saying, "Don`t come home tonight," it`s not like saying, "Go to Ecuador." I don`t know that that alone is enough, but if she stashed those clothes, if she was involved in that, if she told him to do it, she`s in big trouble.
GRACE: I`m going to go back to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Bethany, a lot is being made as to whether this is a premeditated murder or a rage murder.
The fact that gloves were worn, the fact that it is alleged he had been watching her home, waiting for this, apparently, equipment used to grow marijuana, hydroponic equipment, a lot of that goes toward premeditation. And the reality is, with that number of blows, 39 blows and stabs, during that time, certainly, he had time, if he`s guilty, to form intent to kill.
MARSHALL: I think he had intent to kill, if he really is the perpetrator of this crime. I said earlier about a cruising for a bruising. Some guys develop a wish to kill. It incubates over time, and then they literally pick an elaborate fight as a provocation to carry it out.
And that`s the only explanatory theory I can come up with, when I think about the fact that he had this hydroponic growing equipment that he was looking for, but then, when she was there, he viciously and savagely attacked her, with probably very little provocation.
It didn`t take much for him to lash out. And then, the fact that he had sex with his girlfriend, again, people who commit premeditated homicide are often very relieved after the act.
GRACE: And very quickly, before we switch gears to another high- profile case out in California, Debra Opri, if special circumstances are going to be alleged which could result in life without parole...
OPRI: It will.
GRACE: ... as a sentence, when does that happen?
OPRI: My guess is it`s going to happen within the next one to three weeks. But let me tell you something about the media circus. This is not a case -- we are all friend with Daniel Horowitz, you especially Nancy. This is not a case that we should be pushing to a media circus.
Gloria Allred`s involvement, it`s just -- it`s just time to see this as a decent trial. Let this kid get a fair trial, and let`s put this all to rest.
GRACE: Everybody, switching gears, but leaving on the headline that Dyleski in court today, formally charged with the murder of Pamela Vitale. At one point, fingers were being pointing toward Daniel Horowitz of killing his own wife. The bloggers were going wild talking about how Daniel was implicated.
Well, tonight, the only other person implicated is Dyleski`s own mother, now behind bars.
But switch gears, I want to go straight out to Diane Dimond, investigative reporter on the Pellicano story, private eye to the stars.
Now, explain to me, who did this guy, Pellicano, work for? Why is he behind bars? And what`s coming up?
DIMOND: Oh, boy. That`s a long, compound question.
GRACE: In a nutshell.
DIMOND: But, basically, he was the -- he called himself the sin eater in Hollywood. He is a private eye to the stars, was something else he called himself.
Anthony Pellicano represented everybody from Elizabeth Taylor, to Tom Cruise, to Michael Jackson. And that`s where I ran into him, back in 1993 when I first started covering the Jackson case.
He went to prison not long ago, because there was a complaint that he was harassing another female reporter. Gee, that sounds familiar.
Anyway, they went to his office to talk to him about it, and they found C-4 explosives in the safe in his Sunset Boulevard office. And that`s what they charged him with, illegal possession of these explosives.
But, Nancy, while they were there, they looked around. They saw in the computer files -- get this -- two billion pages of wire tap transcripts. He is a self-avowed wire-trap expert.
GRACE: Hold on. Ruh-roh.
DIMOND: And he had allegedly tapped everybody.
GRACE: You know, Diane, note to self: Never store your wire tap conversations with your C-4, your explosive materials. How about John Connolly? John is joining us. He is a "Vanity Fair" contributing editor. And he is actually writing a book on the case.
John Connolly, C-4, dirty wire taps, what the hey?
JOHN CONNOLLY, "VANITY FAIR" CONTRIBUTING EDITOR: Well, Anthony is a complex guy. He also had two live hand grenades there. And I believe he also was tape recording illegally some of his clients, including their attorneys. And that`s what I`ve been told recently by people in California.
So the legal community right now is a big concern about what`s going to happen to Anthony.
GRACE: Now, Diane Dimond just told us two billion -- not million -- two billion, what was it, pages of wire taps?
CONNOLLY: Well, they`ve got a lot of them. I don`t know if it`s billions. That`s some of the numbers that have been bandied about. But they do have a lot of them. And a lot of people have been called before the federal grand jury, a lot of people I`ve spoken with already.
GRACE: Like who?
CONNOLLY: I really shouldn`t tell you who they are, but they are people who have been victimized by Anthony Pellicano. And they were showed transcripts of conversations they had with their lawyers, which were in the possession of Anthony Pellicano, among those two billion pages.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But, why, why, John? Why would a guy with a very successful private eye agency risk it by having somebody climb up the phone pole outside of your house at 3:00 a.m. in the morning and tap into your phone? Why was he doing this?
CONNOLLY: Technology changes all of that. He didn`t have to leave his office to do it. He had somebody who, I believe, is going to be indicted from Pac Bell. He had a corrupt police official getting him inside information. He did not have to leave his office. They had five computers going on constantly with information coming in from outside sources.
GRACE: Who were some of his clients, John?
CONNOLLY: Some of the biggest. The biggest, we all know now, who has been some controversy, is Tom Cruise, Stallone. Arnold Schwarzenegger, as a matter of fact, hired him back in 2001. I wrote a piece about Arnold -- not a very flattering piece...
GRACE: Michael Jackson seems to stand out to me. Kevin Costner, Tom Cruise, Elizabeth Taylor...
CONNOLLY: Kevin Costner, Michael Jackson, the list goes on and on and on.
GRACE: Ovitz. And that does not mean they, as his clients, had anything to do with the wire tap. He was actually tapping his own clients. But what was the purpose, John, for what?
CONNOLLY: Well, I think you`ll agree as a lawyer, if the other side knows what I`m planning to do as an attorney, that`s a huge leg up. And that`s why this is so aggrieved to the legal community.
GRACE: So the big issue right now is whether dirty laundry of all of these Hollywood a-listers is going to be played within a grand jury or even a trial jury.
Shifting gears, very quickly tonight, please help us. We want to find Tara Grinstead. Tara is a 30-year-old high school teacher, a former beauty queen from Ocilla, Georgia, last seen Saturday, her car parked in her driveway, her house locked. Nothing missing but her pocketbook and her keys.
Right now, there`s a $10,000 reward in the case. Take a look. If you have info on this Georgia girl, Tara Grinstead please call the Ocilla police, 229-468-7494.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: My office phone was crackling and popping. And I thought that was kind of weird. But then I started telling people things on the phone that would come back to me through strange sources.
And so my husband and I devised a little red herring, to talk about a supposed Anthony Pellicano special I was working on, and, oh, it will be on in the next couple of days. And not 20 minutes later, I got a call from my legal department staying, "Are you working on an Anthony Pellicano special? Oh, we have to know about this."
And I said, "No, where did you hear from this?" Well, it was from one of the attorneys` offices, one of the attorneys that hired Anthony Pellicano.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Are a lot of celebrity a-listers in hot water? Apparently, they may be.
Pellicano, his name is well-known throughout Hollywood. A lot of people are shaking in their boots. Did he tap their phones? And will those phone conversations be aired in open court.
Now, Diane Dimond, you little minx. You did a sting on Pellicano.
DIMOND: Well, you know my husband is also in the news business. And so he said, "Look, if we think Anthony Pellicano`s tapping your phone, let`s trap him." And we did.
And he got a man named Howard Weitzman (ph), a very high -powered defense attorney out in Hollywood, to call my office, to call the lawyers in my -- my employer`s lawyers to say, "You know, wait a minute. We know what she`s doing. You`d better make her stop."
This is the way Anthony Pellicano works, or worked when he wasn`t in prison. He did it for Elizabeth Taylor. He did it for Tom Cruise. He did it for Michael Jackson.
When they feel someone is going to come out with something negative about them, they call their entertainment attorneys. They call Burt Fields (ph), or Howard Weitzman (ph), or Ed Mazery (ph), or Marty Singer (ph), any of the big, big entertainment lawyers, and they say, "I want to know what`s going on. Put somebody on it."
Well, it was Anthony Pellicano that they most often put on it. And I don`t think that they were, you know, operating in the dark. They had to know how Anthony Pellicano got all this top-secret information.
He had a wire tap patent. Burt Fields (ph), the entertainment attorney, helped him get that patent. They knew what he did.
But in the end, they all said, "Well, we never ordered him to do it." All of official Hollywood is shaking in their boots right now, Nancy, because if Pellicano is indicted, some top lawyers, and maybe even some of their top clients, might also be indicted.
On the other hand, Bruce Robertson, a private investigator, a lot of these celebrities don`t even know where their checkbook is. They don`t even know how to go to the grocery store and buy a quart of milk.
Really, do you really think they knew about the wire taps, or was it more their lawyers? Now, I don`t put a lot past lawyers, Bruce. So why do celebrities or their lawyers hire somebody like Pellicano?
BRUCE ROBERTSON, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, Pellicano had a lot of gravitas. He had a great repetition. He was an icon in Hollywood. So, of course, when you have a case that involves allegations, you`re going to want someone to prove them, disprove them. You want someone to dig up dirt. That`s why private investigators are hired in these kind of cases. Private investigators provide the attorneys with the ammunition to win cases.
GRACE: So, to John Connolly, "Vanity Fair" contributor, what was Pellicano`s strategy when the 1993, the original molestation charges, came up about Michael Jackson?
CONNOLLY: Interesting enough, I`ve been privy to -- somebody was tape recording Pellicano back then, unbeknownst to Anthony Pellicano. And I`ve been privy to some of those tapes.
(LAUGHTER)
In fact, my name is mentioned and so is Diane.
GRACE: I`m a little hurt. I don`t think I was mentioned.
CONNOLLY: No, you weren`t.
GRACE: Darn.
CONNOLLY: And the strategy back then was to get as much information - - negative information about Jackson out, so that therefore they could use nothing if it went to trial. It was a pretty good smart idea. I don`t think Pellicano came up with it by himself. He`s not that smart. It probably was his attorneys. But it was a pretty good strategy.
When you hear him trading information with tabloid journalists, and paying off tabloid journalists, and asking them to help him find witnesses, I mean, it was so corrupt, it was just amazing. It really is.
GRACE: Was he allegedly swapping out information on his own clients?
CONNOLLY: Oh, absolutely. According to these tapes I`ve heard and the transcripts I`ve seen, it`s clearly he was doing that. He would say, "Well, you do this for me, and I`ll give you the other guy`s information."
One of the most egregious one was somebody who got cancer. And he said, "Well, that`s a client of mine. Don`t say anything about that, but, in return, I`ll give you this new case I got about a very big celebrity."
GRACE: So, instead of busting my a-list celebrity, I`ll give you info on my other a-list celebrity client as a favor.
CONNOLLY: Who probably hadn`t paid his check yet.
GRACE: Ouch. So, John Connolly, are associates of Pellicano`s going down with him. According to Diane Dimond, there`s a lot of information out there.
CONNOLLY: Well, I think if I any of the attorneys who did business with him, I`d be really concerned tonight. I would not want to stake my future on the fact that Anthony Pellicano is going to be a standup guy and not roll over. As Diane and I both know, Anthony tried to roll over on Michael Jackson, except certain people were not interested in what he had to say.
GRACE: What do you mean he tried to roll over?
CONNOLLY: He sent an emissary to get a message to Mr. Sneddon that he wanted to cooperate and get him information about Michael Jackson.
GRACE: So why wouldn`t he roll over now?
CONNOLLY: Well, I think he will. I think a lot of people are saying he`s not going to roll over, but I think he will.
GRACE: Of course, we contacted Tom Sneddon, no comment. We contacted Pellicano`s defense lawyers, no comment.
Look, if he was going to roll over on Jackson, don`t expect any standup guy business.
Hey, Bruce Robertson, very quickly -- I`ve only got a few seconds -- but private eyes, wire tapping? A P.I. license does not allow P.I.`s to wire tap.
ROBERTSON: Well, you`re exactly right, Nancy. They`re not allowed to wire tap.
You know, there`s a lot of things on television and in films that show private investigators breaking and entering, wire tapping. That`s great entertainment, but it`s not the real world.
GRACE: Not real.
Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Errol Anthony Domangue, wanted in connection with a `93 Louisiana murder of 26-year-old Sharon McKinley (ph).
Domangue, 53, 5`7", 150 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. If you have info on Errol Anthony Domangue, call the FBI, 225-291-5159.
Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of a sex suit that lead to murder, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.
Stay with us as we remember Marine Corporal Benny Gray Cokerham III, 21 years old, an American hero.
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GRACE: We at Nancy Grace want very much to help in our way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 71-year-old Victor Bach, in his office when someone killed him with a single blow to the head.
Tonight, no leads. If you have info on Victor Bach, call the Carole Sund Foundation, toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please, help us.
As you know by now, the nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court, Harriet Miers, has backed out. Let`s go straight out to a reporter with the "Legal Times," Ted Goldman. What happened?
TED GOLDMAN, REPORTER, "THE LEGAL TIMES": She backed out. And it was completely unexpected. We all woke up this morning and we heard the news about 9:00. People will now say that they anticipated that she was going to withdraw, but it was quite a shock.
GRACE: Were you surprised, Ted?
GOLDMAN: I was surprised. I was sure that Bush was going to carry this thing through and try to take her all the way to the hearings.
GRACE: Did you think, Ted, that, while so many other people in the administration are under attack right now -- this is just one less headache for Bush?
GOLDMAN: And it`s really good timing in that regard, because if expected indictments come down tomorrow, the whole Harriet Miers story will disappear and will have lasted -- her withdrawal will have lasted just one day.
GRACE: Timing, timing, timing, Ted. You`re absolutely right. And do you think those indictments are coming down tomorrow?
GOLDMAN: That`s what it looks like.
GRACE: But on the other hand, Ted, how could anybody be surprised, from everywhere from Jon Stewart, to CNN, to every news outlet out there, they`re either talking about Harriet Miers, poking fun at her, you name it. Who was surprised?
GOLDMAN: And that`s exactly what happened. The critical mass just got too big. She continued to have interviews with different senators. They all came out, including Senator Sessions, for example, with tepid responses. And he`s a real die-hard conservative. And when you don`t have Senator Sessions, you don`t have a lot.
GRACE: Did you think Bush was surprised to get so much intense criticism?
GOLDMAN: Absolutely. He couldn`t have been expecting anything near to this.
GRACE: And last but not least, Sandra Day O`Connor, bye-bye retirement plans.
GOLDMAN: Goodbye for a long time. It could be early next year before we see a new nominee actually confirmed by the full Senate.
GRACE: Well, put on your work boats, Ted, because there will be a new nominee soon enough. Ted Goldman, reporter with the "Legal Times," thanks for the update, friend. Please join us again.
GOLDMAN: Thank you.
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests. But our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, letting all of us into your homes.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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