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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Vice President's Chief of Staff Indicted in CIA Leak Probe
Aired October 28, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight one of the most powerful officials in the Bush administration has been indicted on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements.
Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, is the first person to be indicted in the CIA-White House leak investigation. Libby immediately resigned the left the White House.
The case against top White House adviser Karl Rove is unresolved tonight. Rove was not indicted today but special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald declared, without naming Rove, that the investigation will continue.
For President Bush today's indictment comes at nothing less than a terrible time. The president is already reeling from some of the worst poll numbers of his presidency, public anxiety over the war in Iraq, and the withdrawal of his Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers.
ANNOUNCER: From Washington, this is a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, October 28. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: President Bush today declared that Scooter Libby must be presumed innocent and Libby is entitled to a fair trial. President Bush also said it's important for everyone at the White House to remain focused on their jobs, because there is important work to be done.
We have three reports tonight on this extraordinary day in Washington. Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House on the impact of this indictment on a Bush administration already besieged. Bob Franken at the federal courthouse in Washington, reporting on the charges faced now by Libby and the next steps in this developing legal battle. And Bill Schneider in Washington reports on why the White House went after Ambassador Joe Wilson so aggressively two years ago.
We begin with Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, of course, as you know the political stakes for this White House very high indeed. President Bush was paying very close attention to what happened today. We are told that he actually watched about 20 minutes of the press conference from the special prosecutor when he laid out his case and the results of that. There were also two memos that went out from the White House today. One from Chief of Staff Andy Card to all the staff, reiterating that your first job is to the American people to get their business done. The second from the White House counsel's office, that to tell everyone that they should not have any contact with Scooter Libby when it comes to any aspect of the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): The dark cloud that has been hanging over the Bush administration for nearly two years from the CIA leak investigation finally broke. Scooter Libby was a trusted member of Mr. Bush's most inner circle, but the five-count indictment of vice president Cheney's chief of staff is not the end of the probe.
Karl Rove, the president's top political adviser, escaped indictment today, but his lawyer says he remains under investigation, at least for now.
PATRICK FITZGERALD, SPECIAL COUNSEL: I will not end the investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them that we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently.
MALVEAUX: A beleaguered Mr. Bush, departing for his Camp David retreat, tried to soften the blow.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: While we're all saddened by today's news, we remain focused on the many issues and opportunities facing this country. I've got a job to do; so do the people that work in the White House.
MALVEAUX: Following the indictment, Libby submitted his resignation letter to White House Chief of Staff Andy Card, who notified the president. Then Libby left. White House insiders say they are saddened by Libby's departure but are relieved that Rove seemed to have been spared.
FITZGERALD: We will not be arresting Mr. Libby. We will arrange for him to appear before whatever judge was assigned.
MALVEAUX: Cheney, who stuck to his schedule of fund raising and rallying Georgia troops, said in a written statement he accepted his top lieutenant's resignation will deep regret. "Scooter Libby is one of the most capable and talented individuals I have ever known. He has given many years of his life to public service and has served our nation tirelessly and with great distinction."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And Lou, Libby released a statement late in the day, saying that "I am confident that at the end of this process I will be completely and totally exonerated."
In the meantime, the president is pivoting, focusing on his legislative agenda. We are told that within days to expect an announcement on his next Supreme Court pick -- Lou. DOBBS: Suzanne, the reaction there among the White House staff to today's indictment, expected as it was?
MALVEAUX: Well, yes, a lot of people, quite frankly, were relieved that Karl Rove was spared from any indictments. Of course, we still don't know the outcome of that. He may still be in legal jeopardy.
Many people felt like they love Libby. They think that, of course, he's loyal to Vice President Cheney. He has his hands in many different policy matters. But they feel that it's something that they can overcome. They also believe that there is a deep bench of folks ready to move in at least take over some of those policy matters.
But clearly, they're worried about just how politically damaged the president is.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you. Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
Scooter Libby is the first serving White House official to be indicted in 130 years. Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald today declared that all citizens who testify before grand juries must tell the truth. Fitzgerald said that applies equally to people who hold high office.
Bob Franken now reports from the federal courthouse in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Obstruction of justice, perjury, making false statements, all charges that allege that Libby lied to investigators trying to determine whether anyone had broken the law by revealing the identity of undercover CIA operative Valerie Plame Wilson. She is the wife of Joseph Wilson, who had harshly criticized administration claims about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
Libby is not charged with violating the law about revealing the name of a CIA operative but with attempting to mislead and deceive the grand jury.
FITZGERALD: At the end of the day, what appears is that Mr. Libby's story he was at the tail end of a chain of phone calls, passing on from one reporter what he heard from another, was not true. It was false.
FRANKEN: The two obstruction charges claim he made false statements to the grand jury that he had learned of Plame's identity from other reporters, when in fact, he was told by his boss, the vice president.
The alleged false statements were made to FBI agents about conversations he had with reporters Matt Cooper of "TIME" magazine and NBC's Tim Russert, and perjury for his testimony about his conversations with the reporters.
The theoretical penalty for all this is 30 years in prison and a fine of $1.25 million.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: It's become a political adage, Lou, that in a case like this it's oftentimes not the crime that gets somebody in trouble but the alleged cover-up -- Lou.
DOBBS: And that certainly seems to apply here. Bob Franken, thank you.
Scooter Libby tonight issued a statement saying that he is confident he will be exonerated on all charges. Libby said, quote, "I have spent much of my career working on behalf of the American people and for the safety of our citizens. It is with regret that I step aside from that service today."
Joe Wilson, the husband of the undercover CIA operative, Valerie Plame Wilson, is speaking out tonight about the indictment of former vice president chief of staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby. Wilson's attorney read a statement from Wilson this afternoon here in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER WOLF, JOE WILSON'S ATTORNEY: Today is a sad day for America. When an indictment is delivered at the front door of the White House, the office of the president is defiled. No citizen can take pleasure from that. As this case proceeds, Valerie and I are confident that justice will be done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Joe Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador, said today's indictment is an important step in the criminal process. He says revealing his wife's secret CIA identity was wrong and harmful to the interests of the nation.
Democrats on Capitol Hill today tried to exploit the indictment of Scooter Libby. They broadened their attack against the entire Bush administration. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, for example, accused Republicans of, quote, "a culture of corruption."
For their part Republicans cautioned against rushing to judgment in a case that still has not been concluded.
Kathleen Koch is here now with a report for us -- Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you noticed, the reaction on Capitol Hill, and it's not surprising at all, is split right down party lines. You really echoed the quote of Democratic House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi very well, her calling this specifically another chapter in the Republicans' culture of corruption. Most Democrats, though, insist that this case speaks to what they call the Bush administration's zeal to go to war in Iraq and determination to punish anyone who stood in their way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: What they were trying to do, as you know, is they were trying to get back at people who were questioning the evidence that they were putting -- the administration was putting forth to justify taking action against Iraq. And so this was all about retribution, and doing so I think in, I think, not just a careless way but a very damaging way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: As for Republicans, the decision apparently was the best response is no response. Reporters cornered Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist on Capitol Hill today, and he refused any comment.
One lawmaker on our air today, though, did echo the criticism voiced in Republican circles recently that no charges were brought today on the crime the special counsel was supposed to be investigating: purposefully revealing the name of a covert agent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: If there was no underlying crime committed then one has to ask why then would you bring five counts against a servant in the government who may or may not have done something wrong? And in this case you have to look at those counts and say, well, regardless of whether she was a covert agent, regardless of whether it was right to talk about her in the public square, it's still not proper to, you know, give false statement or to lie through perjury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: Some Democrats have asked for a special report, a public report, detailing special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's findings. He in his press conference made it very clear that that would not happen.
But Lou, some are still asking for a congressional investigation. As a matter of fact, Henry Waxman just sent out a four-page letter here to Tom Davis, saying, "We need hearings. We need our own investigation."
DOBBS: As you reported, along party lines the reaction falls from Capitol Hill. Kathleen Koch, thank you.
Today's stunning developments in Washington come at the end of what has been, by any standard, a very bad week for President Bush and his administration.
First, outrage over the Bush administration's handling of the aftermath of Hurricane Wilma. Thousands of people in Florida were left without food, water and gas. Six million people lost power. Many residents blamed the Federal Emergency Management Administration.
And the number of American troops killed in Iraq this week reached 2,000, the vast majority of those troops killed in combat.
Then Harriet Miers suddenly withdrew as President Bush's nominee to the Supreme Court amid strong opposition from both Republican and Democratic senators.
And finally, as we know, the vice president's chief of staff today, Scooter Libby, indicted on charges of obstruction of justice, perjury and making false statements.
More on today's dramatic developments ahead here. Scooter Libby says he's confident he will be exonerated. Is he correct? Distinguished trial attorney David Boies will be here with me.
And new light tonight on the aggressive White House tactics against its critics. We'll have that special report.
And "America by the Numbers" tonight, the shocking numbers that all of our policy makers in this fair city should be focusing on, certainly over the past five years. We're not talking about their poll ratings tonight. You'll find those numbers both interesting and disturbing. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: At the heart of today's indictment of Lewis "Scooter" Libby is the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. The law states that it is a federal crime to knowingly reveal the identity of a covert CIA agent.
It was put in place after the assassination of CIA operative Richard Welsh by a Greek terrorist group in 1975. Welch's cover was blown when his name was covered in a magazine.
There has been only one successful prosecution under this law. In 1985 a CIA agent was sentenced to five years in prison for giving the names of other CIA undercover agents to her boyfriend.
Joining me more for more on today's dramatic developments here in Washington, three of the country's top political commentators: Karen Tumulty, "TIME" magazine; Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times"; and joining us from New York, our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Good to have you with us. Let me begin with you, Jeffrey, if I may. This is a peculiar situation in which the special counsel says he is going to continue the investigation and renders one indictment. Are you surprised?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, not terribly, but I think if you listen to Pat Fitzgerald in his press conference, it really looks like this investigation is getting wrapped up. This grand jury has been disbanded. Theoretically, he could impanel another, but I think the bottom line is if you are Karl Rove, you are breathing an enormous sigh of relief tonight. And it appears to me very likely that Rove will not be prosecuted as a result of this investigation.
DOBBS: Do you agree? Do you agree, Karen?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, those were certainly the sounds I was getting out of the White House today when I talked to people over there. They were saying that what they anticipate is that this is going to be a matter of clearing up some minor discrepancies, possibly, you know, filing some paperwork. But they, too, were sounding like they were pretty much out of the woods around Karl Rove.
DOBBS: And Karl Rove at this point, if not exonerated at least in the clear so far, it is fair to say. Are they doing high fives at the White House?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "L.A. TIMES": I don't know. I think any time you have a senior official indicted and the prospect of a trial that will reopen the issue of the justifications for the war at a time when the costs of the war are growing, there really is no cause for celebration.
But Lou, you know, the special prosecutor here, I think, answered the questions that were important for him to pursue his legal case but didn't really answer the questions that most of the public are probably most concerned about.
When you look at this indictment, there's a lot of suggestive language about what other people in the White House and the vice president's office knew about what Scooter Libby was doing and about the leaking to Robert Novak in the first place but no answers. And it really does leave a lot of hanging questions out there that I think a lot of people in not only Washington but the country are going to want to see answers to.
DOBBS: The country wants answers, deserves answers any time we commit two years of a special counsel, a grand jury, is time and millions of taxpayer dollars to a specific question. And that is whether or not a CIA operative, Jeffrey Toobin, had her cover blown by a politically motivated staff member of the White House. We don't know that tonight.
TOOBIN: We don't. I think we have to recognize what the purpose of an indictment is. It's not to tell a story. It's not to inform the public. It's to inform an individual of the charges against him.
And I think it is true that this indictment raises a lot of questions about particularly what the vice president's role was in all of this. It doesn't suggest his role was criminal in any way, but it certainly raises a lot of questions.
Dick Cheney is not a particularly visible vice president. He doesn't answer any questions for the most part.
DOBBS: Often at undisclosed locations. TOOBIN: And -- and it will be interesting to see if there is any pressure on him to come forward and say, "This is my role. This is what I did in this series of events, and this will clear the air." Or will the question simply fester?
TUMULTY: A lot of questions. But I am not at all sure what the venue for these answers are going to be, especially if Scooter Libby plea -- plea bargains and there is no trial. There will be no report to Congress and there's no appetite on the hill in the Republican Congress to launch an investigation either.
BROWNSTEIN: Two specific -- Jeff, can I just? Two specific things that seem to me very much hanging out of the information that Mr. Fitzgerald put forward today.
One, he says that official A, whoever leaked to Robert Novak, told Scooter Libby he did that before the article appeared. Did official A tell anyone else?
Second, he says that Scooter Libby flew the vice president and others to Norfolk, Virginia, and discussed specifically what he should say to the media inquiries about this case. And then later on that same day confirms to two reporters that Valerie Wilson worked at the CIA.
But the indictment doesn't answer whether the vice president or others told him to go ahead.
These are the sort of things that are raised in this document but not answered, and as Karen says may never be answered if, especially, this does not go to trial.
TOOBIN: In my experience in the United States of America is that politicians answer questions. President Bush answers questions all the time. People are in the Oval Office.
Dick Cheney never answers questions as far as I can tell. I just think that's bizarre for a major elected official, much less the vice president, and perhaps there will be political pressure. Or perhaps we're used to Dick Cheney operating by different rules.
DOBBS: As that may be, Fitzgerald did speak to this issue in -- in terms of who was motivated by what, saying that, because of the false statements he alleges were made by Lewis Libby, the perjury he committed, that he was unable to reach into the motivation in the specific acts and hence the bringing of the charges that he did here today, the first -- the first indictment against a White House official in 130 years in this country.
Karen Tumulty, Jeffrey Toobin, Ron Brownstein, thank you very much.
Our quote of the day comes from none other than presidential adviser Karl Rove. As he was leaving his home this morning he told reporters, "I'm going to have a great Friday and a fantastic weekend," end quote. Still ahead here, White House hardball, aggressive White House politics, how it may have led to today's indictment of Scooter Libby.
And California Governor Schwarzenegger he's feeling the heat over illegal aliens, the Minutemen volunteer group and broken borders. Those stories, a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Welcome back to the special edition of our broadcast from Washington, D.C., tonight.
Lewis "Scooter" Libby, one of the highest ranking White House officials to ever face criminal indictment. He is not the first, however. Since the Watergate scandal, seven former White House officials have also faced prosecution from the Nixon, Reagan and Clinton administrations.
The White House-CIA leak investigation has shed disturbing new light on the aggressive, tough political tactics of this White House. White House officials launched that tough attack on Ambassador Joe Wilson two years ago and his wife. More than two years after the start of this investigation into the White House-CIA leak, there remain many questions unanswered.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Why did high level White House staffers see Joe Wilson as such a political threat to President Bush?
Go back to the summer of 2003. The major fighting had ended in Iraq only two months before. This claim had been central to the administration's case for war.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
SCHNEIDER: Two months before the invasion, President Bush had asserted...
BUSH: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
SCHNEIDER: In a July 6, 2003, article, Wilson wrote that CIA officials had sent him to Africa to investigate that claim. His conclusion: it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place.
A year later, a Senate Intelligence Committee report called Wilson's findings inconclusive.
But when Wilson went public in 2003, the president faced a growing insurgency, his own upcoming reelection campaign and no evidence of any weapons of mass destruction.
So what did they do? They played hardball. They went after Wilson's background, his politics and then, it seems, his wife.
Shortly after Wilson published his criticism, then CIA Director George Tenet issued a statement saying the CIA should have ensured that the claim about Saddam Hussein seeking uranium in Africa was removed from President Bush's speech.
Administration officials were worried that the CIA would blame the White House for pre-war intelligence failures. Who asked the Justice Department on July 30, 2003, to investigate the leak of Wilson's wife's identity? The CIA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Politics as usual, that means tough attacks but critics say there's a line between tough attack politics and criminal acts.
DOBBS: Without question and the fact that you bring out that this began with a CIA request for an investigation.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
DOBBS: There are also allegations that the name "Valerie Plame" was first introduced into the White House by none other than George Tenet, a claim that he denies, but the question is still unresolved.
SCHNEIDER: There's a lot of bureaucratic politics here. And there's no question that there were really bad feelings between the White House, particularly the vice president's office, and the CIA over the CIA questioning of some of the intelligence that the White House used to make the case for war.
DOBBS: In one of the issues, fundamental to all that was transpiring here, aside from the internecine politics of the bureaucracy and the intelligence community and the political bureaucracy of the White House and the administration, is the incontrovertible fact that the allegations that there were weapons of mass destruction by this administration as a pretext for war were absolutely groundless.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. And that is what David Kay announced. That is what every commission has found. There was absolutely no evidence that the weapons existed at the time of the war. And that, of course, is at the heart of the controversy over this war. And that's why a lot of Democrats say that was the origin of this issue.
DOBBS: And fundamental, as one reads the indictment today against Scooter Libby, it is also fundamental to all of the travails that have ensued for Scooter Libby and perhaps other administration officials, and certainly all involved in this tragic affair.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, and most interesting is the fact that this -- these indictments had nothing to do with the leak. They all came out of the investigation.
DOBBS: This town doesn't learn quickly, does it?
SCHNEIDER: No, it's always the cover-up.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you.
That brings us to our poll question tonight: do you believe today's indictment justifies the two-year investigation and millions of dollars, taxpayer dollars spent by the special prosecutor? Yes or no. Please cast your vote as LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Just ahead here tonight, the failure of our elected officials to solve the real problems that face middle class America. These problems include the rising number of Americans who now live in poverty, the plummeting number of Americans who are graduating from high school. We'll have the special report for you, "America by the Numbers."
And then the White House mess. The indictment of the vice president's top adviser ends the worst week ever for the Bush presidency. We'll be talking with two former presidential advisers, David Gergen and Paul Begala, here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This just in to CNN.
The New Orleans Police Department has announced it is firing 51 members of the police force for deserting their post during the Hurricane Katrina disaster.
Today's arrests include 45 New Orleans police officers, six civilian employees. The police department unable to account for 240 of its officers out of the 1,400 member force after the hurricane hit.
Investigations continue to see whether other police officers deserted their posts during the height of that disaster.
We'll have much more ahead here on the five count indictment against Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis Scooter Libby.
Former presidential advisers, David Gergen and Paul Begala, will join me here in a minute.
But, first America by the numbers. Here in our nation's capital the numbers most important to our lawmakers are without question, polls and campaign contributions. But we found the numbers that should be the most relevant for our policy makers.
And Christine Romans is here with our "Special Report" tonight Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, while policy makers wring their hands over this latest Washington scandal, as important as it is, the truth is there are fundamental problems in this country that are eating away the foundations of America and the numbers don't lie.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (voice-over): Policy makers, this is what you've achieved.
37 million people live in poverty. One in five American children is poor. And today the government announced a record 1.5 million babies born to unwed mothers last year.
50 percent of black and Hispanic teenagers will never graduate from high school. Overall, high school graduation rates in this country aren't even in the top 10 of industrialized nations.
Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich calls Washington an arrogant echo chamber. And he says as nation we are blowing it.
ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY: Our children are not going to do as well as we are doing. And that's for the first time in many, many years, since the Depression.
And, in fact if you extend backward in American society there's always been an optimism. There's always been a sense of progress. And I'm afraid we're going to lose that because all of the economic indicators, all of the social indicators suggest that we are sliding backward.
ROMANS: American students rank 28th in math preparedness, badly trailing the leaders: China, Finland and Korea. In science, American students are behind 21 other countries. We are no longer the most college educated nation.
ERIC HANUSHEK, HOOVER INSTITUTION, STANFORD: I think it tells us something about the long-run prospects if we don't in fact take a new tact and improve our schools.
Other countries in the world are pushing very, very hard at developing their human resources and the skills of their population.
ROMANS: China graduates eight to 10 times as many engineers each year as the United States.
Eric Klinenberg, a sociologist at New York University, has studied inequality for our elderly.
ERIC KLINENBERG, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Today, the United States is the great superpower of the world. But, we haven't found a way to take care of our elderly, our poor, young children and infants. In many respects here we lag behind nations that are far less advanced and powerful.
ROMANS: Life expectancy in the United States lags Japan, Canada, France, the UK, Spain and Singapore.
And here in Washington, D.C. the infant mortality rate is higher than cities in India.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: It is harder and harder to live the American dream in this country. Wages are stagnant, mortgage defaults are rising now, 47 million Americans are without health insurance. This is what America's policy makers have achieved -- Lou.
DOBBS: This broadcast dedicated, as I think all of you who watch us regularly know, to a nonpartisan independent reality.
And the reality is something we're not going to turn away from on this broadcast because of political developments or even important legal developments like today's indictment of Lewis Scooter Libby in the CIA White House leak case.
We're going to continue to bring you the facts. And the numbers stand just as Christine Romans has reported them.
Christine, thank you very much.
Vice President Cheney's chief of staff now faces charges of obstruction of justice, making false statements and, of course, obstruction of justice.
There were no indictments today against top Presidential Adviser Karl Rove, but Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, without naming Rove, did say the leak investigation is not over.
President Bush said he was saddened by the indictment of Scooter Libby, but the president declared it is important for everyone at the White House to remain focused on their jobs.
I'm joined now by CNN contributor, former adviser to President Clinton, Paul Begala, David Gergen, former adviser to four former presidents. And we're delighted to have you both with us.
Let me turn to first, if I may, to you, Paul. How significant is this? First of all, stepping aside from the individual story that is Scooter Libby, but how important is this? And what is its impact on this White House?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think it's enormous.
First off, this is the most powerful and important vice president we have ever had, and the most powerful chief of staff to that vice president. It's enormous loss for the White House.
Second, historically, you mentioned at the top of the show that many administrations have had ethical problems. No sitting White House official has been indicted for 135 years. You had to go all the way back to 1870, the Ulysses Grant administration. It's an enormous historical block.
Third, the president campaigned on saying, I'll restore honor and dignity to the oval office, obviously referring to President Clinton's affairs and his lies about the affairs.
This besmirches that moral authority now. If, in fact, there is criminal conduct in the Bush White House, that hardly meets his standard for restoring honor and dignity. So, it's an enormous problem for him.
DOBBS: Do you concur, David Gergen?
DAVID GERGEN, FMR. PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Lou, all week you have been carrying that little line about the White House mess. And the mess just got bigger and deeper today.
I do concur. And, you know, indeed. It's not at all clear this is going to stop with Scooter Libby.
"The Washington Post" is reporting now, Lou, out on their web site, that it appears that Fitzgerald was about to bring charges against Karl Rove, too. But, that Rove produced information at the 11th hour in negotiations which, quote, "gave Fitzgerald pause." That was by a source close to Rove.
And now the prosecutor is not sure what to do. So, he's, obviously, left the door open. And if that indictment were to come, too, of course, that would make this much, much bigger.
But, this is the first major scandal that's engulfed this administration. And I think it's serious because it comes right on top of a lot of other troubles.
DOBBS: A lot of other trouble this week for the president, and over the course of the past, really the entire period since his election just about a year ago. When he was talking about having earned a lot of political capital, Paul Begala, and he was going to spend it. It looks like he has shot the entire amount of political capital.
BEGALA: And that's the problem. His agenda for the whole year has gone down in flames.
His chief domestic priority has been social security and his plan to privatize a part of that. The country has rejected that. That's dead.
His chief international priority, obviously, is the war in Iraq, the American public is turning against that. And from there, Americans look at him and they say, what is he doing for me?
I mean, you saw Christine's report. And health care, housing, education costs are going way, way up. Energy costs are through the roof. And so there are sort of looking at this saying, is his priorities, you know, Terri Schiavo and scandals and special interests?
And that's the problem is that what sustained Clinton when he was in trouble is he had an agenda that people liked and supported. Bush doesn't have that. DOBBS: I would like you and David Gergen to respond to something because as you say, David, I sense a strong partisan impulse, as you do so, not surprisingly nor should it be otherwise.
But, David, in this town we are here, obviously, reporting on a significant development today. But this town has gone tone deaf when it comes to listening to the voice of the people.
There is so little regard in this town on the part of the Democrats or the Republicans for middle class families, so little regard for working men and women in this country, that, frankly, it's enough to make you physically ill.
GERGEN: Well, I'm afraid it's a lot of truth to that, Lou. And I have to tell you, I think whether you're a Democrat or Republican, it's just dismaying and disheartening. We should not -- it's unhealthy to have a president who is disabled for the next three years.
You know, we have talked about this before among other things that cast a paw over the economy. So, I think we're all better off if he can restore some of his moral authority.
What worries me as much as anything else is whether his team and whether he, indeed himself, is in denial. Whether they think fundamentally there's nothing wrong at the White House right now. That it is everybody else's fault. That this really doesn't amount to very much with Scooter Libby. That Harriet Miers was all due to politics.
And that they are -- you cannot govern the country if you're in denial. You have to face some realities and then talk squarely and straight with the American people to be able to restore your authority.
DOBBS: That authority challenged, as you say, any time the question of ethics at this level is raised. Illegality in point of fact, but this is a president who started out by the year with number one priority in his agenda is social security, which could be laudable in some context, but with private accounts.
This is a president who has focused on No Child Left Behind, which is a 10-year program, while we're not graduating but half of our Hispanic students from high school. When we're not graduating but half of our students, who are black students from high school.
This is -- there's, as I say, it seems a complete deafness. And what David, Paul, calls denial.
BEGALA: Well, you're right. And it's not just the White House. This is a problem for my party too. If all the Democrats do is just up and down on poor Scooter Libby or if all they do is rail about Karl Rove or other aides, people in the country will get the sense, rightfully, that both parties are just squabbling and fighting and trying to kill each other. But the Democrats have an opportunity. The president's agenda is unpopular. Now, he's personally unpopular. If the Democrats were to stand up and say, here is our plan on energy independence. Here is our plan on health care. Here is our plan on poverty. Here is our plan on, by the way, ethics and reform, which this city desperately needs and which Democrats are really split on, they could capitalize on this. But it's going to actually take them taking the initiative.
DOBBS: Which party do you think, David Gergen, will first say, let's move all of these lobbyists out of here, two for one to every congressman by the pharmaceutical industry alone? Should we put up a starter gun, pull the trigger and see which one jumps first? Or do you think we're...
GERGEN: I think, Lou, if we could get the revolving door stopped or slowed down, that alone would help a lot. You have been talking about that in the last few days. That would make a major difference.
DOBBS: David Gergen, Paul Begala, we thank you both for being here, for your insight and for your honesty and your candor. Thank you, gentlemen.
GERGEN: Thank you.
DOBBS: President Bush today also focused on his role as commander in chief. He delivered a speech on the global war on terror in Norfolk, Virginia. President Bush's speech on the war has recently been rewritten to take on radical Islamists. It's a term that this administration took great pains to avoid in the past, and in fact criticized this broadcast for using for the past three and a half years. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Following the World Trade Center attack, President Bush used a vague term that avoided mention of radical Islam or radical Islamists. The president favored an awkward, but religiously neutral term.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America will hold those evildoers accountable.
PILGRIM: That evolved into the official war on terror, favored by the Bush administration for the next several years.
BUSH: Our war on terror has well begun.
PILGRIM: This program challenged the official terminology and was criticized by some for insisting on more precise language.
DOBBS: Why is it that this country is conducting what it calls a war on terror, rather than a war against radical Islamist terrorists, who are the enemy?
PILGRIM: In a poll of viewers of the program, three-quarters favored Lou's language over war on terror, and now it finally seems the Bush administration is catching up. The summer of this year, the Bush administration language evolved from the war on terror to struggle against violent extremism.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: What is taking place is a global struggle.
And the global struggle against extremists.
Today's struggle against violent extremism.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, FORMER CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It's more than terrorism. I think it's violent extremists is the real enemy here, and terror is the method they use.
PILGRIM: And this month, in another language shift, President Bush began using the term radical Islam or Islamic radicals, and today repeatedly and emphatically used both terms in a speech in Norfolk, Virginia.
BUSH: The murderous ideology of the Islamic radicals is the great challenge of our new century.
PILGRIM: No vague musings about terror, but a clear and precise definition of the radical religious goals of the enemy. He also included a whole litany of very specific names.
BUSH: Their attacks serve a clear and focused ideology. A set of beliefs and goals that are evil, but not insane. Some call this evil Islamic radicalism, others militant jihadism, and still others Islamofascism.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, this new stump speech talks about the theology of radical Islam, drawing parallels to the struggle against communism. And the president also describes the radical religious tones of the movement and the countries that help radical Islamist terrorists, such as Syria and Iran -- Lou.
DOBBS: And I think the administration deserves great credit, and we're going to give it to them here tonight, for finally naming the enemy in the war on terror. And as I often said here, Kitty, as you well know, you cannot win a war when you haven't the courage to name your enemy, and our enemy is nothing other than radical Islam. Our enemies, radical Islamists. And I think the administration deserves great credit for having moved with courage to that position.
Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim from New York.
Still ahead, the usual suspects gathering to protest the Minutemen. They are in California. They are promising a tense faceoff with the Minutemen this weekend. Open border advocates, ethnocentric groups, taking on America's biggest neighborhood watch program. Volunteerism under attack. Our special report here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Immigration officials have made shocking new discoveries of illegal aliens who've somehow been allowed to work at sensitive U.S. military bases. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement says in the past week, it has arrested 24 illegal aliens working at military bases critical to our nation's security. ICE today announced it has arrested one illegal alien at the White Sands missile range in New Mexico, another at the Marine logistics base in Barstow, California, 16 illegal aliens at the Naval Air station joint reserve base in New Orleans, and six illegal aliens at the Fort Irwin U.S. Army desert training facility in California. All illegal aliens arrested were hired by companies hired to do contract work at these sensitive military sites.
Tonight, Sacramento, California, bracing for a weekend showdown between the Minutemen and open borders advocates supporting illegal aliens. The Minuteman border patrol holds a rally tomorrow in California's capital. Several anti-Minutemen groups say they are ready to face off with them. And today, they demanded California Governor Schwarzenegger condemn the Minutemen. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Minuteman Project has helped bring national attention to the crisis of out-of- control illegal immigration. Yet open borders advocates continue to protest the rights of U.S. citizens to engage in what has become essentially a border-wide neighborhood watch program.
MARGARET ZAKNEON, BAY AREA IMMIGRANTS: We're here today to call on the governor to come out publicly and clearly and to be on the record opposing the presence of vigilante groups in California.
WIAN: A group representing dozens of open borders advocate, religious groups and human rights organizations, delivered this letter to the office of California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. It demands he withdraw his public support for the Minuteman.
JEANNETTE ZANIPATIN, IMMIGRANT WELFARE COLLABORATIVE: We think it's time that the governor retract his statements and actually, you know, talk about the positive contributions of immigrants.
WIAN: In fact, the governor often talks about the positive contributions of immigrants -- legal immigrants.
REV. RICK SCHLOSSER, CALIFORNIA COUNCIL OF CHURCHES: Support for an unauthorized group of self-styled enforcers is dangerous, and it's unprecedented by a public official. This is a nation of laws, not Hollywood-style gunslinging, and the governor risks committing a heinous crime against humanity with such endorsements.
WIAN: Actually, scores of elected officials in California and across the nation have endorsed the Minutemen. And their actions are legal, unlike the millions of illegal aliens and smugglers who cross our borders each year.
The protesters denounce what they call acts of violence against immigrants by armed vigilantes, though there have been no documented instances of a Minuteman harming anyone.
While the Minutemen have remained peaceful, they have been the target of violent protests by anarchists and others who advocate returning much of the southwest United States to Mexico. Schwarzenegger's office had no comment on the protesters' demands, though they say his position supporting the Minutemen has not changed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The issue has become politically difficult for the governor. He wants more border security, of course, because California's budget is being overwhelmed by the costs of illegal immigration. But his praise for the Minutemen and his refusal to approve driver's licenses for illegal aliens has cost him some support among Hispanic voters, Lou.
DOBBS: It's unfortunate that Hispanic voters would vote on the base of race, because most of the illegal immigrants are Hispanic, rather than focus on the national interest issue, the issue of border security. That's really unfortunate that those organizations would take that position.
WIAN: And it's unfortunate because as we've reported and you've reported, the jobs that the illegal immigrants take tend to be from Hispanic -- legal Hispanic residents of the United States.
DOBBS: As reported from the Pew Hispanic Center this spring. It's extraordinary, and we can only hope to continue to add to the body of public knowledge and hope that rationality in this country prevails on a host of issues including this one. Casey Wian, an excellent report. Thank you, sir.
Still ahead, a top White House aide indicted. He faces up to 30 years in jail if convicted of all counts. I'll be talking next with one of this country's most revered legal minds, Attorney David Boies. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, one of this country's most distinguished and renowned trial attorneys, David Boies. He took part in another very high-profile political case in this town some five years ago, representing Vice President Gore in the 2000 recount, arguing the case before the Supreme Court. Of course, David Boies, it's good to have you here.
DAVID BOIES, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Good to be here.
DOBBS: Five counts ...
BOIES: Five counts.
DOBBS: ... without reference to the underlying crime that the special counsel was charged with investigating. Your interpretation?
BOIES: No reference except in the indictment but not in the counts. One of the things that is interesting about the indictment is that you read the indictment and it looks like he's going to indict for a violation of 18-793, the 1970 law that prohibits dissemination of classified information. And yet, when you get to the actual counts, it's just obstruction of justice -- just is probably the wrong word.
DOBBS: But as opposed to the underlying.
BOIES: Lying to investigators and perjury.
DOBBS: And Fitzgerald himself today in his press conference was particularly strong. If the man showed any emotion at all it was his apparent conviction and passion in that conviction that the legal process is so dependent upon, unimpeded process and justice.
The truth before grand juries and investigators this -- how serious would you judge these counts to be? Is it even possible for a man of Mr. Libby's position that is an assistant to the vice president, one of the top aides in this administration, to proceed without involving other members of the administration in a trial?
BOIES: I think it's very hard. I think if there's a trial, other people are going to get dragged in. I don't think there's going to be a trial. I'll wager and I'll come back when we know, but I'll wager this never gets to trial because I think if it does get to trial, a lot comes out, and a lot I think that maybe nobody wants to have come out.
DOBBS: Why nobody?
BOIES: Well, I think that any case like this damages -- doesn't damage Libby, it doesn't just damage the administration, it damages America. It damages all of us. And I think we all would like to see it put to bed in some way. And so I think there would be a lot of support for working out some way so it doesn't actually go to trial.
DOBBS: It doesn't go to trial but it will leave unanswered a number of questions, that may even with trial -- one, certainly I don't know that. I am asking if you might speculate, because that is what it would be, the issue is to whether actually a law was violated here, the degree to which one can prosecute given that there is no assertion that an underlying crime, that is based on a statute, was violated by Mr. Libby in the first place, by disseminating information, was violated. What is the implication of that?
BOIES: Well, part of the implication is that you can't lie to a grand jury.
DOBBS: Right.
BOIES: In my view, the most serious charge here is lying to a grand jury. That's a very formal proceeding. It's one where you are prepared. You know you're going to go in, you're going to ask questions. You swear to tell the truth. If they can actually prove that he intentionally lied -- not made a mistake, but intentionally lied -- that's a serious offense. DOBBS: And the attorney for Mr. Libby asserts that they were misstatements not false statements. Legally how difficult is that to assert and to demonstrate?
BOIES: I think in general it's pretty difficult to prove that they were intentionally false. Now, in this particular case, if you believe what is in the indictment, and I say if, you've got enough facts that make it look like it's hard to believe that he simply made a mistake. But that's just looking what is in the indictment. You don't know what Mr. Libby's side of it is yet.
DOBBS: I want more answers. I'm like you. I would like to see this resolved so that it is less injurious to the nation, to all of us than it appears it may well be. David Boies, we thank you for your insight. We appreciate you being here.
BOIES: Thank you. Good to be here. Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead, we'll have the results of our question tonight and a preview of what is ahead next week. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, 86 percent of you say today's indictment justifies the two year investigation and millions of taxpayer dollars spent by the special counsel.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here next week. Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night, from Washington.
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