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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Rising Number of American Casualties in Iraq; Battle for the Bench; Broken Borders
Aired November 02, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, six Americans have been killed in Iraq while lawmakers in Washington are arguing about intelligence that led to the war. Two U.S. Marines were killed today when their helicopter crashed west of Baghdad. Two other troops were also killed. We'll have a special report for you from Baghdad.
And I'll be talking with the leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee tonight about what we know now and what we should have known then.
Also tonight, how does the State Department decide which people from countries that support terrorism should be allowed to enter this country? Well, our government throws a lottery. We'll have that special report.
And this country's rising crisis over illegal immigration and a total lack of border security. How citizen volunteers who have already patrolled our porous borders are now tracking illegal aliens in the suburbs of our nation's capital.
And Wal-Mart driving prices lower while the children of nearly half its employees are insured under government health care programs. I'll be talking with a leading congressional critic of Wal-Mart and a filmmaker who is defending the nation's largest retailer.
We begin with the escalating violence in Iraq and the rising number of American casualties after the deadliest month for our troops in Iraq since January.
Aneesh Raman reports from Baghdad -- Aneesh.
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, good evening.
After a bloody October, November starting out with no letup in the attacks. The military announcing today that six American troops were killed in the past two days. Two of them, as you mentioned, U.S. Marines that died earlier today after their Cobra helicopter crashed in the city of Ramadi. That's in the western volatile Al Anbar province that borders Syria.
The military not saying what caused the crash, but within hours an air strike was conducted in that immediate vicinity where the chopper went down on what the military says was an insurgent command post. Meantime, three others of those killed, we're told, died from improvised explosive devices. And Lou, these roadside bombs remain the biggest killer of American troops in Iraq. According to officials, they are growing increasingly sophisticated at times. The insurgents are buying materials, in fact, over the Internet.
And just last week I was embedded with members of the 3rd Infantry Division in what's called the Triangle of Death, just south of the Iraqi capital in the parts of Babil province, and there the soldiers are going out every day. And near daily they are finding these IEDs. And when they route them out, at times within hours the insurgents have placed another bomb.
It is an incredibly difficult fight. The insurgery remains incredibly confident.
They showed that confidence today in that area in the town of Musayyib, where a suicide bomber detonated just as the residents there, Lou, were going out to celebrate the end of the holy Muslim month of Ramadan. At least 20 people were killed, upwards of 60 others wounded.
A scene that was to be of celebration tonight turned to chaos, turned to carnage. The residents in Musayyib begin grieving the dead tonight -- Lou.
DOBBS: Aneesh, thank you very much.
Aneesh Raman from Baghdad.
The rising number of American deaths in Iraq is not, of course, the only issue facing lawmakers on Capitol Hill in connection with the war in Iraq. Democratic senators now are focusing on the intelligence that led to the war.
Yesterday, Democrats forced the Senate into secret session. And today, the White House tried to reflect criticism by pointing to the Clinton administration's policies on Iraq.
Suzanne Malveaux has the report from the White House -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, really, it just took the White House one day. They were not commenting on this story yesterday, but today they came out in full force swinging. Full force, of course.
We heard from the press secretary, Scott McClellan in an off-camera gaggle early this morning, saying essentially that if the Democrats want to call into question about Saddam Hussein or intelligence leading up to the war, all they have to do is take a look at previous Democratic administrations, specifically mentioning President Clinton.
They said that all of these people, they say the French, the English, the United Nations, the international community, as well as a slew of Democratic leaders, looked at the same intelligence, had the same analysis, all came up with the conclusion that Saddam Hussein was, in fact, a threat.
We heard from Dan Bartlett, the counselor to the president, just 20 minutes ago on CNN saying that this is revisionist history, that it is a silly debate.
The main point they're make here, they say that the intelligence may have been wrong but the decision to go war to oust Saddam Hussein was right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN BARTLETT, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT BUSH: Maybe the investigation can start with the previous administration or Jay Rockefeller himself. He himself said that there was unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein was developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.
Harry Reid himself, who voted for the war, cited the same intelligence President Bush did. President Clinton, Madeleine Albright, Vice President Al Gore, John Kerry, there's a whole list of Democrats who stepped up, as did President Bush, looked at the threat in a post-9/11 world, and said this man is a threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The bottom line, the White House argument here, the case that they're making is that if we're wrong, we were all wrong in this together. It's not a new argument. We have actually heard this before when the question came up previously.
But Lou, as you know, of course, the context of all of this is it's a White House that is trying to pivot from some of the political problems, the CIA leak investigation. The poll numbers showing a growing number of people dissatisfied, not supporting the U.S. mission in Iraq, and a growing number of casualties in that country -- Lou.
DOBBS: The politics, if we can put it aside, the fact is that American casualties continue to mount. And the fact is that two-and- a-half years after the beginning of the war in Iraq, the amount of accountability that has been insisted upon and enforced in prewar intelligence is absolutely nonexistent. Those are indisputable nonpartisan facts that we wrestle with in this country almost every day.
Suzanne Malveaux. Thank you very much.
Later here, I'll be talking with the two senators at the center of this controversy over prewar intelligence on Iraq, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, Republican Senator Pat Roberts, and the committee's vice chairman, Democratic Senator Jay Rockefeller.
On Capitol Hill today, senators tried to return to business as usual after yesterday's astonishing showdown over prewar intelligence. One of the potentially most divisive issues remains the president's nomination of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. But Judge Alito appears to be making progress in his efforts to win the support of senators on both sides of the aisle. Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
That's right. In fact, you know, there were a lot of meetings. In fact, seven one-on-one meetings today between senators and Samuel Alito, a sign that this White House is confident that he can behind closed doors with these lawmakers probably a lot better than Harriet Miers. We heard about a lot of those one-on-one meetings not going well.
The key today is that after meeting with Alito today, a key moderate Democrat, Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska came out and basically said that he does not believe that a filibuster would be justified. He believes it appears to him that in fact Judge Alito is within the mainstream.
This follows what happened yesterday, when another Republican member of the so-called bipartisan Gang of 14 moderates, Mike DeWyne of Ohio, also said that he believes a filibuster would not, in fact, be justified. So you see a little bit of momentum among moderates in both parties coming to Samuel Alito's side.
And, in fact, he also met with the Senate Democratic whip, Dick Durbin, who was in the middle of all this controversy yesterday about Iraq, the meltdown on the Senate floor. And Durbin actually had some fairly positive things to say after the meeting about Judge Alito, and said that despite all the talk back and forth about a possible filibuster, it's way too premature for that, to even talk about a filibuster.
And what I'm hearing from Democrats privately is that's because the Democrats want to take a posture that this process is just beginning with Samuel Alito. They want to let him go through these courtesy calls with senators, they want to wait for the actual hearings to start. They won't start until December or January -- and keep their powder dry on him, and instead focus like they did yesterday on Iraq.
Democrats privately up here saying they really feel the Bush administration is vulnerable on this prewar intelligence issue. You were just discussing it with Suzanne Malveaux. And they're going to keep firing away on that, keep the powder dry on Alito for now -- Lou.
DOBBS: And concerning Judge Alito, Ed, you believe the -- as it now stands, that the confirmation hearings will begin when?
HENRY: Well, it still has not been set. But I think it's very likely it will be January. That's what the Democrats are pushing for.
The White House wants it to start in December, to try to get this going. But given the holiday schedule, it would be hard for them to start in December, interrupt for the holidays, come back na January.
He as a judge, as you know, for 15 years has a lot of opinions lawmakers in both parties want to go through thoroughly. It seems more likely it will be January -- Lou. DOBBS: Is there any embarrassment whatsoever in the U.S. Senate that it should require two months to move the nation's business ahead to move forward with the confirmation hearings?
HENRY: No, Lou. In fact, this is fairly routine, because there are other factors in play.
For example, the FBI has to do an extensive background search of any Supreme Court nominee. That usually takes about six weeks, Lou. In addition, they also wait for the American Bar Association to give its actual review of these nominees. That takes a few weeks as well.
Maybe the process could be speeded up, but that is the tradition. It's not just about lawmakers, it's about the FBI as well -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let me remind all of us that, in point of fact, Judge Alito was unanimously confirmed for the U.S. Appellate court and has already gone through extensive FBI research. The typical time to confirm a Supreme Court nominee historically has been about five weeks, I believe.
HENRY: True. He was approved 15 years ago.
DOBBS: Ed Henry, we thank you -- I'm sorry?
HENRY: He was approved 15 years ago, though.
DOBBS: Right.
HENRY: That's why lawmakers want to -- in those intervening 15 years, they want to make sure that they find out exactly what's been going on.
DOBBS: I think I have, if I may say, considerably more confidence in the FBI in its process of vetting than I do in a Senate that would require an extra two to three months to move forward with a confirmation hearing on a Supreme Court nominee.
Thank you very much, Ed Henry.
Still ahead here, outrage tonight over a government lottery, a U.S. government lottery that would allow radical Islamist terrorists to live and work in this country. We'll have a special report.
And minutemen volunteers launch a new campaign against illegal aliens. This time in the suburbs of our nation's capital, directed at employers, not the illegal aliens. We'll have that report.
And Wal-Mart fighting back against withering criticism from labor leaders, business owners and supporters of fair trade. I'll be talking with a documentary maker who's made a film defending Wal-Mart and a leading congressional critic of the country's biggest retailer.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff today delivered what is being called his most comprehensive plan yet to secure our borders. Chertoff said in a speech in Houston today he is creating a new office to coordinate border security efforts.
He said he is open to the possibility of building more fences to keep illegal aliens from our country and to stop their crossing those broken borders. Chertoff also said today he will consider imposing harsher penalties for companies that repeatedly, he said, hire illegal aliens.
Tonight, the Herndon, Virginia, minutemen are on the job, and they're fighting back against the hiring of illegal aliens. Our nation's newest minuteman movement today started garthing evidence against day laborers who are in the country obviously illegally.
They say their city government is ignoring the worsening illegal alien crisis, along with the federal government. And they have decided to take action.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): At 7:00 a.m., they gather at this Herndon, Virginia, diner to split off in groups. Average citizens who want to deter the hiring of illegal aliens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't confront anybody at all.
SYLVESTER: Armed with cameras, the minutemen take pictures of the large crowd of day laborers gathered outside this 7-Eleven and the employers who want to hire them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw them taking the license plates and the vehicle descriptions of the companies that are picking people up.
SYLVESTER: This contractor van slows but doesn't stop.
JEFF TALLEY, HERNDON MINUTEMEN: They pull up, they see what's going on, and they make a U-turn and leave.
SYLVESTER (voice over): The group is gathering this information and will compile it in a database and share it with immigration officials, the county licensing office and the IRS to report any possible tax violations.
(voice over): There are no confrontations involving the minutemen, but across the street from the 7-Eleven, a woman waiting for the bank to open gets into an argument with a security guard and the police trying to shoo her away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go across to their (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I can't even go to the 7-Eleven over there. I see you're not moving them over there. But you ain't doing nothing to them!
SYLVESTER: Security tells our camera to get off the bank's parking lot...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait a minute. I need you all off the property. Off the property, man. Let's go.
SYLVESTER: ... while the day laborers continue to loiter outside the 7-Eleven.
Even with the cameras rolling, some contractors still hire in plain view. This man picked up eight workers. I asked him if he knew if they were all documented. In Spanish, incredibly, he claim he's not doing anything wrong.
RICARDO, CONTRACTOR (through translator): Supposedly, the law doesn't prohibit temporary workers. Only for one day. I think it's not necessary.
SYLVESTER: We followed another contractor who picked up workers to load furniture and asked if he was concerned some of them may be illegal aliens.
GEORGE TAPLIN, HERNDON MINUTEMEN: It may concern me to some extent, but, you know, what can I do? I need some labor, you know, just for a day to help me load.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: And these contractors and individuals are so used to hiring the day laborers, the vast majority of them illegal aliens, that the employers are so nonchalant about it. And that's what has the minutemen so upset as they repeatedly said today, illegal means illegal -- Lou.
DOBBS: A concept that escapes also, of course, not only those folks, but our entire federal government.
Lisa Sylvester. Thank you.
Along our southern border today, agents discovered another tunnel, the second tunnel found in a week near the Nogales entry point in Arizona. The U.S. Border Patrol heard about it from an anonymous tipster. Agents who located the hand-dug tunnel also found more than 200 pounds of marijuana in a nearby drainage pipe.
An update now on a story we reported to you last night. Denver voters approved by a wide margin a $25 million tax increase that changes the way their teachers will be paid.
Denver will now link teacher pay to student performance. Supporters said the tax hike is needed to help Denver attract good teachers. And under the plans, some teachers could earn almost $3,000 more each year. Denver is the largest school district in the country to enact a pay-for-performance plan for its teachers.
On the Galapagos Islands this evening, fiery new volcanic eruptions taking place. Hundreds of tourists are flocking to the Sierra Negra volcano tonight on the island of Isabella. It is erupting for the first time in 26 years.
Tourists are watching the spectacular lava flows. Officials say the volcano is not a threat to the villagers or to the island's wildlife.
Still ahead here, a new month, a new opportunity for the Bush administration. The White House hoping to turn things around. We'll have a special report on their efforts.
And outrage tonight over a federal government plan that would allow radical Islamist terrorists to live and work in this country legally. We'll have that astonishing report for you next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Not only does the lack of border security render the concept of homeland security a sham, but so does the way in which the State Department decides who will be allowed to enter this country from states that sponsor terrorism. The U.S. State Department is beginning the 15th year of its so-called visa diversity lottery program.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Every year, 50,000 people from around the world come to live in the United States. They won the visa lottery.
Then armed with this green card, they're free to pursue the great American lifestyle, engage in the pursuit of happiness. Heartwarming, but the only problem, potential terrorists can also apply.
Last year, from the State Department list of countries that sponsor terrorism, 934 people came from Iran, 805 from Sudan, 51 from Libya, 47 from Syria.
REP. BOB GOODLATTE (R-VA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Somebody can put their name in on this list by simply filling out about a half a page of information. And if you have a major terrorist organization that has people coming out of the madrasas or wherever, and they have no terrorist record, no criminal record, but simply submit their name at random to be selected for this program, the odds are that some of them will get green cards.
PILGRIM: The State Department says the visa lottery winners go through extensive screening. But critics point out former Hamas leader Moussa Mohammed Abu Marzuk (ph) came into the United States legally this way before he was deported in the late '90s for terrorist activity.
So did Egyptian Heshan Mohammed Hedat (ph) when his wife won the green card lottery. He killed two people and wounded three others in a shooting rampage at the El Al desk at the L.A. airport in 2002. MARK KRIKORIAN, CTR. FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: The lottery is the ideal visa for a terrorist. Along with all of its other problems, the security vulnerabilities it represents just are a slam-dunk argument for getting rid of this ridiculous program.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, critics have many complaints. They say the entire system is fraught with fraud.
People applying under multiple names to the same lottery. And the other objection to the system is illegal aliens can also apply. So the program treats people who are violating the laws the same way as people who play by the rules and apply from their own home countries.
So Lou, blatant dishonesty is tolerated in this program.
DOBBS: It is inconceivable in the years since 9/11 that the U.S. State Department would have the temerity, the effrontery to conduct a program like this.
PILGRIM: You know, it's interesting, because the deputy inspector general of the State Department in April of 2004 testified to Congress and said terrorists attempt to use this to enter the United States as permanent residence. And so that was over a year ago.
DOBBS: And I love the name of this, the Diversity Visa Lottery Program. Extraordinary.
Someone should be fired. I know it's not popular in Washington, but perhaps a little accountability would be appropriate from time to time. This certainly looks like one of those times.
Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you very much.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. We want to ask you for your views.
What is the most responsible way for the U.S. State Department to approve visas, a lottery or an application process, followed by careful selection? This would include, by the way, those people seeking to enter our country from states that sponsor terrorism. We'll bring you the results later here in the broadcast.
Still ahead, President Bush looking for a November political bounce. Is a White House shake-up around the corner? We'll have that special report for you.
And planning for a pandemic. The Bush administration's new proposals could limit where we all travel.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush this week is making a determined effort to revive his political fortunes after what was the worst month of his presidency. The president has announced a new Supreme Court nominee, a plan to deal with a possible global bird flu pandemic. But Democrats are doing everything they possibly can to shift the political debate away from the president's agenda to now prewar intelligence.
Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): This week, President Bush is going after a new title, the comeback kid. The president started first thing Monday morning by nominating Samuel Alito for the Supreme Court. Alito, he pointed out...
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... has more prior judicial experience than any Supreme Court nominee in more than 70 years.
SCHNEIDER: In other words, Alito is not Harriet Miers. Good thing, too, because 86 percent of Americans say the next Supreme Court justice should be someone with judicial experience.
Will it work? If Alito gives any indication that he would vote to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision on abortion, it could be a problem. Only 32 percent of Americans say they want a justice who would do that.
On Tuesday, the president announced the plan to prepare for a potential bird flu disaster.
BUSH: We must be ready to respond at the federal, state and local levels in the event that a pandemic reaches our shores.
SCHNEIDER: In other words, this will not be like when Hurricane Katrina reached our shores. Will it work? Barely more than half the public feels confident the federal government can handle a bird flu outbreak.
BUSH: I'm requesting a total of $7.1 billion in emergency funding from the United States Congress.
SCHNEIDER: Which is already in an uproar over how to pay for hurricane recovery.
Republicans are advancing their own formula for President Bush's comeback.
KEN DUBERSTEIN, FMR. WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: I think all second term presidents need some fresh blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president probably would be well advised to take a look at bringing in some fresh blood.
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: Be prepared to bring in new energy, new blood in the administration. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: You might call it the Halloween formula, bring in new blood, and you can come back from the political graveyard -- Lou.
DOBBS: Any sign that the president is thinking about doing exactly that?
SCHNEIDER: Well, no. Not really.
He's being urged from all sides. But notice the people who are giving him that advice all come from outside the administration.
This is a president that doesn't like to shake things up too much. And he's known to be very loyal to everyone who works for them.
DOBBS: Is there -- and I know this is perhaps a heretical idea, Bill Schneider, in Washington, but is there any possibility in the minds of those involved in this administration that there is a correlation between poll ratings and decisions taken and public policy positions assumed?
SCHNEIDER: I think they understand that, but they believe that all poll ratings can be changed by clever strategists like Mr. Rove, who knows how to manipulate the president's image and change the message. I think they think of poll ratings as something that they can help control not just by policy decisions.
DOBBS: Irrespective of the quality of our nature of governance. A remarkable view from Washington.
Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
DOBBS: After yesterday's astonishing maneuver in the U.S. Senate by the Democrats, the Senate Intelligence Committee chairman, Senator Pat Roberts today said he told Democrats two days ago he would complete an investigation, so-called phase two, into pre-war intelligence.
Senator Roberts said the Democrat's decision to stop the regular work of the Senate and go into a secret session was nothing more than a stunt. Senator Roberts joins us now.
Mr. Chairman, two days ago, you told the Democrats that you would do exactly what they demanded.
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R) CHMN., INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Well, that's exactly right. Our staff has been in touch with their staffs and determined which to move on this next week.
We are moving on it next week. We're going to start at 10:00 on Tuesday, and we go to 12:00. And we'll take as long as we can Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I hope we can finish up by Friday. If that doesn't work, why we will continue until we finish phase two, which is what they'd like to have finished and what I'd like to have finished, what we promised them we would have finished.
DOBBS: You know, Senator, you and I have talked along with the vice chairman. Typically, the two of you have stood together before the U.S. Senate.
You are individual and quite separate on these issues now. Where you talk greatly about bipartisanship, that is obviously broken down entirely. How is it that we're sitting here...
ROBERTS: Let's hope it's not entirely.
DOBBS: I'm sorry.
ROBERTS: I said let's hope it's not entirely.
DOBBS: Well, fair enough.
But, it's broken down to the point that it is almost indistinguishable from entirely, when you're calling Senator Harry Reid's performance yesterday a stunt, when the Senate majority leader is saying that he won't be able to trust Senator Reid for the next year and a half.
The question I have is why in the world are we sitting here even having this discussion in November of 2005 when this has been before your committee? It has been, obviously, a significant issue since you exceeded to an investigation three months after we invaded Iraq.
ROBERTS: Well, not only exceeded, but led the investigation. It was a WMD. We called it a review at that particular time. And I think we achieved a great deal.
It was a bipartisan measure. The vote was 17 to nothing. It was a 511-page report. It was a seminal report. It led to the 9-11 commission findings to the WMD commission findings.
I think it led to a great degree to the intelligence reform act, and what we're doing today in terms of making America safer.
So, I think you pretty well made my speech. Some of this in regards to phase two in terms of relevancy. I know that we must do it. I said we'd do it. We will do it. We will complete it. But that is a good question.
DOBBS: Senator, I have to ask you as we have talked over the years, I have always had the sense that both you and Senator Rockefeller were absolutely -- shared absolutely a frustration that you did not have a greater oversight role in the Senate Intelligence Committee.
ROBERTS: I think that's correct, yes.
DOBBS: And my question is, and I've asked both of you before this, why you tolerate it at all?
ROBERTS: Well, that's a pretty good question. You can ask jay that. He's standing right to my right as soon as I'm through here.
I think we're both committed to making the committee as nonpartisan as we can. We both now practice what we call preemptive oversight. We both believe we must move toward information access instead of information sharing with our 15 intelligence agencies.
We both worked hard on the Intelligence Reform Act to make sure the director of National Intelligence had the authority that he needed. We are now trying to press ahead with an intelligence authorization act.
But, what happened here is more on the leadership level or more on the political agenda, in my personal view, than the work of the committee.
DOBBS: Are you suggesting in that regard that the Senate leadership working in--closely with the White House, has obstructed what should be the normal course of the normal direction and the normal course of business?
ROBERTS: No, I don't see that at all. I think what's happened here or at least this is my take on it. You can ask Jay what his opinion is.
But our staff informed their staff that we were going to go ahead with this as of next week. I had told several members of the committee before then. Jay and I have had several talks about the meeting going on phase two to finally get it going. We have had some obstacles.
DOBBS: What I asked, though, was is one of the obstacles the Senate leadership working in close concert with the White House?
ROBERTS: No, I don't think so at all.
What happened was that there was leadership meeting that night and the next day all of a sudden we got sprung for the first time in 29 years in executive session. I went on the floor wondering what that was all about and it was me.
DOBBS: Senator, I apologize.
It is all about you and the committee, and what we knew, what we should have known in 2003.
Senator, we practice something on this broadcast approaching equal time, and I want to turn to your colleague and your chairman there and give him roughly the same amount of time.
Senator Pat Roberts, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, thank you sir.
ROBERTS: Okay, thank you. DOBBS: The vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee, Senator Jay Rockefeller, today declared the Democrats repeatedly called upon the chairman to finish the phase two investigation into pre-war intelligence in a timely manner.
In a statement earlier today, Senator Rockefeller said, "I'm glad the Republican majority has agreed to make phase two a priority and to commit to finishing the report. But, if we cannot produce a thorough and credible report in the coming weeks then we will have failed the American people."
Senator Jay Rockefeller joins us now.
Senator, good to have you with us, Mr. Vice Chairman. You, as I alluded to, and Senator Roberts, the chairman, have typically appeared on this broadcast shoulder to shoulder.
What does this represent the insistence upon, if you will, separate but equal time?
SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D) VICE CHMN., INTEL. CMTE.: I think a little difference in point of view of how to do phase two.
Lou, what basically happened yesterday when there is no question we were surprised, blind sided, whatever you want the Republicans, in order to close down the Senate.
And frankly, the result of that, although maybe some friendships were strained and protocol was changed, we got more done in two hours than we had in the 20 months prior to that.
DOBBS: So, the American people, Senator, should be asking, why in the world didn't do you it sooner?
ROCKEFELLER: That's what I've been asking for many, many months. And the answer is always, well, maybe this phase two is on the back burner. We're not going to get close to anything that involves the White House or any of its people because that would be seen as very political.
But, on the other hand, members of the White House were talking about atom bombs going off, mushroom clouds, you know, all kinds of things. And that's part of what phase two is going to be about.
DOBBS: Phase two will be about that.
And I want to get to one other thing, because it is important, I think, for the context of what we're talking about, Senator, if I may.
Senator Roberts said that he told his staff told the Democratic Senate staff that he was going ahead with everything over the next few days, and yet, Senator Reid felt compelled to carry out that maneuver or stunt if you prefer. Why was that?
ROCKEFELLER: Don't know exactly how to answer that except that I had no idea until this afternoon that there were going to be meetings in the morning and afternoon all of next week, and I, as vice chairman of the committee, presumably I would know that.
DOBBS: You're just the vice chairman?
ROCKEFELLER: Just the vice chairman, that's right.
But, ordinarily, therefore, you know, you do the regular way of doing business and I'd know about that. And what I fear is that what we greed on yesterday was really quite triumphant. It was the Senate acting badly, then acting well.
Frist and Reid came to an agreement that by November 14th three on each side, Republican and Democrat, would meet and come together with a work plan to do this investigation in the same detail as we did in phase one.
DOBBS: Senator, the process, the way in which it was -- the reach that is exciting, we'll have some movement by the 14th.
But, if I may, I want to turn a couple of the issues that have been raised here in terms of that pre-war intelligence. Because we're talking about over two and a half years since the onset of war.
We still don't have answers to these questions, but in the oversight role and this I questioned the chairman about, and I want to give you a chance to answer, the oversight role of your committee, your support for the war, your statements that based on your judgment of the intelligence, supporting that war.
How in the world are the American people to have confidence in both the oversight of the Senate and in the quality of intelligence when we don't even have all of the answers two and a half years after they should have at least they should have been in the onset of an investigation?
ROCKEFELLER: I agree with that.
And I also would agree with the fact that it's beyond me that since accountability is the basis of democracy, both with the Congress and the administration, there hasn't been a single person fired. Not one single person fired out of all of this mess.
DOBBS: Now the administration says because of the support of President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore, a host of Democratic luminaries, including yourself, that they believe that they are delighted to proceed with this bipartisan investigation into pre-war intelligence.
George Tenet, the head of CIA, appointed by President Clinton. How do you respond?
ROCKEFELLER: I'm not really sure they understood your question. But let me -- in the meantime respond to something said before.
DOBBS: Just as well.
ROCKEFELLER: OK. It is true that I voted based upon the intelligence they knew at the time. But, Lou, when I knew the intelligence, I and some others came down to the Senate floor and said my vote was wrong, I would have never voted this way. And that was something that others did not do, and I don't understand that.
DOBBS: Well, Senator, as always it's good to talk with you individually as well as in your role with your other colleagues including the chairman of the committee. We thank you for your time, senator.
ROCKEFELLER: Lou, thank you very much.
DOBBS: Senator Jay Rockefeller vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Coming up here next, securing our nation's porous broken borders. One governor is calling on the United States to stop illegal aliens the way that Israel stops radical Islamist terrorists. I'll be joined by Colorado's governor, Bill Owens here next.
And then Wal-Mart employees and fans defending the company against rising, significant, even shrill criticism.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happen every day instill some hope in everybody else. I have to. Because somebody did it for me at a time in my life where I was totally broke down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: I'll be talking with a documentary maker why Wal-Mart works and why that drives some people crazy. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: My next guest has a new plan he says will finally secure our borders with Mexico -- our border with Mexico and stop millions of illegal aliens from crossing it each year. Colorado's Governor Bill Owens calling for a brand-new high-tech fence along the entire 2,000 mile border. He says the United States should model it after the security fence that Israel has built in the West Bank. Governor Owens joins us tonight from Denver. Governor, good to have you here.
And you have -- you have had a remarkable election in your state yesterday. Before we move to that, let's finish up with this wall. You say the wall should be an electronic rather than visible barrier. What difference does it make just as long as it's effective?
GOV. BILL OWENS, (R) COLORADO: You know, that's correct. I believe that the first priority has to be to secure the border. And to do that, we can look to Israel for a very good example. I'm not suggesting a wall along all 2,000 miles. But I'm suggesting something that would, in fact, secure that border. In some places it would be electronic, in some places it would be sensors, in some places it might be a physical wall. Israel has done it successfully against an enemy state and that's the PLO. I believe we could do it just as effectively as a country I don't regard as an enemy, but I do regard the challenge of immigration is something that is very, very concerning for us all.
DOBBS: Illegal immigration certainly, immigration I think we all embrace in this country. Let me ask you this -- the governor of Colorado, you're well removed from that southern border, how is illegal immigration affecting? And you why is it such a major concern as the governor of the state of Colorado?
OWENS: I think it affects all Americans. But in Colorado we estimate, the Pew foundation estimates that there are probably 200 to 250,000 illegal immigrants in our state. Many of these people, if not most people are good people, trying to feed their families, but post- 9/11, we have to protect that border. And that's really the precursor to the reforms in terms of the illegal immigration as well as legal immigration that should follow thereafter.
DOBBS: Governor, I've got to ask you about a vote that excites me in your state as part of a large measure, you're going to have teachers paid for performance, for actually educating people. And those young people actually walking out knowing something. What a novel idea.
OWENS: You know there's a lot of things we can do in education, and the Denver school district is doing one of them, and that is to actually paying for performance, a vote would pass.
DOBBS: Do I seem a little excited, governor. I'm excited! I want to hear you excited!
OWENS: I can't see your face, but I can hear you, Lou. And I understand. I can sense the excitement.
You know, we are excited in Colorado with choice, with reforms, with compensation based on performance. It's what the rest of the private sector, including you, get paid based on. We ought to be able to pay teachers the same way.
DOBBS: And is it a template that you expect to see reach across the entire state of Colorado?
OWENS: You know, I hope so. I hope that we're able to start to move towards rewarding those outstanding teachers and perhaps incentivizing those who aren't up to par, doing the things that do work in the private sector in the most important thing we do, which is educate our children.
DOBBS: Couldn't agree with you more, governor. And as always, good to have you here.
OWENS: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: And congratulations, a remarkable vote in Colorado, citizens there deciding to forego those tax refunds and support infrastructure and education. Congratulations governor.
OWENS: Thank you much.
DOBBS: Coming up next, a sweetheart deal for Wal-Mart. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who says the Bush administration is more concerned with taking care of Wal-Mart than the American people.
And defending Wal-Mart, a documentary highlighting why people are pretty excited about Wal-Mart. And some people are driven crazy about that very fact. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Tonight, outrage over the labor department's child labor law settlement with Wal-Mart.
The labor department inspector general's office this week taking the unprecedented step of blasting that deal. What it calls outrageous concessions by the labor department to the country's largest retailer.
That settlement reached earlier this year gives Wal-Mart more than two week's warning before investigators can begin inspecting stores. And Wal-Mart attorneys helped draft key parts of the deal.
The company claims the settlement is perfectly legal and as far as we can determine here, that is exactly right, if that report says the inspector general's office found the agreement was in compliance with the federal law and that there was no evidence of undue influence or pressure on the part of Wal-Mart.
Again, as best we can tell, that is true as well. Under the deal Wal-Mart agreed to pay $135,000 fine for its violations, and denies ever violating child labor laws.
Democratic Congressman George Miller of California, who was offended by that deal to say the least, pressured the labor department to begin this investigation.
Joining us tonight from Washington. He's the ranking Democrat on the house Education Workforce Committee.
Congressman, congratulations in initiating this investigation and findings by the inspector general. What's your reaction?
REP. GEORGE MILLER (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, thank you.
My reaction is this is very disturbing. What the inspector general really found was that, in effect, the department of labor took a dive when it was supposed to protect the children who are working for Wal-Mart, when it was supposed to protect the workers.
It really allowed a sweetheart deal to be formed with Wal-Mart that violated the procedures in a most serious fashion and compromised the rights of Wal-Mart employees in the future. It gave Wal-Mart concessions and traded those against future enforcements over these actions against Wal-Mart, and it's just unbelievable. It may be legal, but in this case, clearly neither the department of labor nor Wal-Mart understood the morality of what they were doing.
And it's just an absolute outrage against the workers, in this case, the Wal-Mart workers, and this, mind you, Wal-Mart doesn't come with clean hands.
Wal-Mart has a long, long rap sheet in violations against workers on wage an hour violations, on child labor laws, on immigration laws and on discrimination laws. And so for the department of labor to do this is just a huge affront.
DOBBS: And the department of labor, as you say, is an affront.
I want to be very clear with this audience. I'm sure that the audience understands that we invited labor secretary Chao to be on this broadcast to talk about this issue, to respond to any criticism, to present a viewpoint. And frankly declined much to our disappointment, if not surprise.
Congressman Miller, you and Congressman DeLauro introduced today the Safe Work Act. Just how that will help labor in this country?
MILLER: Well, we're trying to provide the means by which labor can get back to having the laws that protect them in the workplace enforced. We think it's important.
What we now see is just a total breakdown by the department of labor in terms of enforcement of the laws that were designed to protect the men and women and the children of this country in the workplace.
And obviously, the current laws are not working with this administration, with this department of labor, with this secretary of labor.
DOBBS: Congressman George Miller, again congratulations on achieving results from your initiative and we thank you.
MILLER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Congressman George Miller.
The debate over Wal-Mart, the subject of two very different documentaries now.
Monday on this broadcast we talked with the producer of a documentary called "Wal-mart: The High Cost of Low Price." The film highly critical of Wal-Mart.
Now another film called, "Why Wal-Mart Works and Why that Drives Some People Crazy" set for release. This documentary argues Wal-Mart is transforming the our nation's economy in a positive way and helping Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many people have so many negative things to say about. But, what about the positive things? What about saving that mother that's trying to, you know, get back everything that she's lost? Those are the people that they look out for.
DOBBS: Joining me now the director of "Why Wal-Mart Works," Ron Galloway.
Ron, good to have you here.
RON GALLOWAY, DIRECTOR, "WHY WAL-MART WORKS": Good to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: Wal-Mart's got to be excited.
One fellow steps up to defend the world's largest retailer.
GALLOWAY: If they're excited they're not showing it because they have announced publicly through the AP that they're not carrying my film.
Now, they cooperated with me in a limited sense in giving me access to the stores, but that's where my cooperation with them stopped.
DOBBS: I understand that you're an entrepreneur. You're a man that's taken by the logistics side of Wal-Mart. And we're not going to get into logistics here.
GALLOWAY: Oh, please.
DOBBS: We'll stipulate that Wal-Mart is brilliant...
GALLOWAY: OK.
DOBBS: ...in its operations, its logistical operations, certainly.
But at the same time, you're defending a company--you just heard George Miller.
GALLOWAY: I just heard that report. And, occasionally, lately I feel like I'm out here defending the indefensible. Wal-Mart on a logistics level works great. At the store level they work great.
At the executive level and the middle it's almost like watching Inspector Clouseau sometimes. I'm stuck in the awkward position of defending a corporation at a time when a lot of strange things seem to be happening in that corporation.
DOBBS: Strange things and here is the third largest export market for China. They're sucking cheap imports into this country, driving businesses...
GALLOWAY: No, you're right. DOBBS: And by the way, I want to say hi to the Wal-Mart war room.
Ron, wave into the camera. Wave into the camera. The Wal-Mart war room is here to protect the institution, that's understandable. We just want to be sure we say hi.
GALLOWAY: The time issue is interesting on a couple of fronts.
One, it's obviously good for the American consumer. They get lower prices. It's good for the Chinese worker who maybe comes in from the country earning $40 a month and gets a pay raise to $120.
Now, what you're about to say the American worker. There's been no solution for them because of these Chinese imports.
DOBBS: And because of those imports, because of a trade policy that is absolutely mindless on the part of this country, Wal-Mart, other institutions exploiting it.
I'm glad to hear you say you have some qualms here.
GALLOWAY: I mean, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I think Wal-Mart recognized early on, earlier than most on, the advantages of doing business with China, but it has severe reparations for some here at home. However, it does drive lower prices to consumers.
DOBBS: And that it does indeed and wages. We can get into that the next time.
GALLOWAY: OK.
DOBBS: Ron, Galloway, good luck with your documentary. We thank you for being here.
GALLOWAY: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: We'll talk more, I'm sure, about this, as you defend this little company called Wal-Mart.
Thank you, Ron Galloway.
Coming up next, the results of our poll tonight. Please stay with us.
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DOBBS: The results now of our poll an overwhelming majority. Ninety-eight percent of you say the most responsible way for our state department to approve visas for those who want to enter this country from states that sponsor terrorism is to actually use an application process to exercise careful judgment and selection.
Two percent of you, nonetheless, say a lottery would be just fine. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please be with us tomorrow.
Lewis Scooter Libby's first day in court. We will have amongst our other guests, former presidential adviser John Dean.
From all of us here, thanks for being with us. Good night from New York.
THE SITUATION ROOM with Wolf Blitzer right now--Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, Lou.
We're here in THE SITUATION ROOM where new pictures and information are arriving all the time.
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