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American Morning

Scooter Libby on His Way to His First Court Appearance in CIA Leak Case; Former FEMA Chief's E-Mails

Aired November 03, 2005 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: New pictures just in. That's Lewis "Scooter" Libby this morning on his way to his first court appearance in the CIA leak case. We've got a live report just ahead.
And a developing story that we're following. The European Union says it will investigate those reports of secret CIA prisoners in Eastern Europe.

Two months after Katrina, we're learning what the former FEMA chief was saying in e-mails the day the storm hit. And it's bizarre.

We're live in New Orleans on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien.

S. O'BRIEN: Welcome, everybody, on a Thursday. A beautiful day. You saw the Statue of Liberty. It looks just gorgeous.

Miles is in the Algiers section of New Orleans today. And I know your focus, Miles, is the recovery there and also these weird, I mean bizarre e-mails that we're now learning about from the former FEMA chief -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Soledad.

We're here because this is the two month mark since Katrina; actually, nine weeks and some change.

I'm standing right on the levee in Algiers. It's across the Mississippi River. That's the French Quarter over there and, of course, downtown New Orleans, and the river right there.

This side of the river, Algiers, was more or less spared serious damage, certainly when you compare it to what happened across the river.

We've been here all week taking a look at some of the neighborhoods and it's really been a wild roller coaster ride. We began right across the way there in the French Quarter, right off of Canal Street, made our way after that up toward the 17th Street Canal and the breached levee there. And we're going to talk a little bit more about levees today and exactly why they failed. In addition to, perhaps, some incompetence and lack of funding, there might have been some corruption involved as those levees were built. We went to St. Bernard Parish yesterday, the most heavily devastated area here. Still really on its knees. And finally this morning, we came to Algiers, where, in many respects, people believe a kernel of economy opportunity exists, and, really, the growth of the city might kind of emanate from here in the future because things did a little better here.

So we'll talk about those e-mails, we'll talk about the levees and why, in many respects, the way these levees are run might make them inherently weak. That's all coming up -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Miles, thanks.

We'll get to that in just a little bit.

First, though, to Washington, D.C.

Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the vice president's former chief of staff, on his way to court this morning. He was the chief of staff until Friday, when he submitted his resignation. Today he's going to be charged for his actions during the CIA leak investigation.

AMERICAN MORNING'S Bob Franken live outside the courthouse in Washington for us -- hey, Bob, good morning.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Certainly not a good day for Lewis "Scooter" Libby. The cameras were there as he left his house to go and face the slow grinding wheels of justice here at the federal courthouse. This is the arraignment where he is going to enter his plea. And we're hearing that we can expect a not guilty plea from him. No surprise there.

He is charged with several counts that allege that he lied during the investigation into the leaks that publicly identified Valerie Plame as a CIA undercover operative.

The charges include obstruction of justice, perjury and lying, making false statements, which means telling the investigators something other than the truth.

He's going to be making his plea this morning. The charges just really open up other possibilities. They oftentimes raise more questions than they provide answers. He is not charged with the underlying crime that caused this investigation, which would make it illegal under certain circumstances to publicly identify somebody who is an undercover agent for the government.

He is charged with, during the course of the investigation, participating in what amounts to an alleged cover-up.

As I said, there are a number of questions that are still unanswered, including any role of Vice President Cheney. It is possible that his former boss may be called to testify if and when the trial begins -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: And, also, I guess, any role for Karl Rove. He's not indicted, but he's certainly not out of the woods yet, is he?

FRANKEN: He's not out of the woods. The special prosecutor made it a point last week to say that even though the grand jury, his grand jury had terminated, he would continue to investigate the possibility that Rove may have also not allegedly told the truth to people during this investigation. That is still open. What happened is Rove's attorney came up with some extenuating circumstances that he hopes convinces the special prosecutor that he should not move against the president's chief political adviser -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Bob Franken with an investigation involving the White House.

Thanks, Bob.

We'll talk more about the White House.

Kelly has got a look at what the president is doing today and more -- good morning again.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he is on the road.

Good morning again, Soledad.

And hello, everyone.

President Bush and the first lady heading to Argentina for the Summit of the Americas. These are some new pictures of the president leaving the White House just a short time ago.

The two day summit focusing on poverty and economic development. The president expected to face some tough resistance to his ideas, pushing free trade.

European Union officials are calling for an investigation after a report that the CIA may be holding terror suspects in secret prisons in Eastern Europe. The prisons were reportedly set up after the September 11 attacks in about eight countries.

French officials are desperately -- turning gears here -- French officials deeply trying to halt rioting in several Paris suburbs. Hundreds of young people clashing with police again for the seventh straight night. Police say at least four vehicles were set on fire and 15 people were arrested. The riots stem from anger and frustration with poverty and unemployment. The prime minister and several community leaders are planning to meet today.

And fears of bird flu prompting one London-based airline to take some action. Virgin Atlantic Airlines said it is getting a stockpile of the anti-viral drug Tamiflu just in case. The company's chairman said airline workers would be the on the front lines of a possible pandemic. Virgin says it is also taking a closer look at other options to protect workers and passengers in the event of any outbreak.

So what's your weather going to look like on this Thursday? We check in with Jacqui Jeras at the CNN Center with the latest.

Looking pretty good for a good part of the country, right -- Jacqui?

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Absolutely, especially the eastern two thirds look great.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit more, Miles, about these e- mails that are pretty surprising, I think, from the former FEMA Director Mike Brown. They've just been made public, and, in fact, Congressman Melancone. I may be mangling his name. Melancone, is that right? Has posted them on his...

M. O'BRIEN: I think it's Melancone. I think it's Melancone. Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: He put them on his Web site, basically...

M. O'BRIEN: And...

S. O'BRIEN: And now you can read sort of the -- what was going on behind-the-scenes as Michael Brown is e-mailing his chief of staff and also e-mailing the only FEMA representative who is down in New Orleans.

Let's go through the first one, the day the storm hit, actually. Here's one. He e-mails: "Can I quit now? Can I come home?" And I think that that is an e-mail, I believe this is the one that's going to his chief of staff.

And, you know, you've got to say, who knows if he's being sarcastic? Who knows exactly the tone and the joke or whatever behind this e-mail? And obviously it's unclear at the point in the storm -- there was a point where nobody really knew how bad it was in New Orleans and the whole Gulf region.

But I think some more of these e-mails are really...

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, I mean, how many times have you misinterpreted an e-mail that was meant as humor? It happens all the time. And this one, that, of all the ones I've seen this morning, that could be one that was a bit of sarcasm and not meant in a serious way.

The other one, though...

S. O'BRIEN: And that...

M. O'BRIEN: ... was too...

S. O'BRIEN: Hey, Miles, let me just interrupt you there, because I went to Cindy Taylor...

M. O'BRIEN: Yes? S. O'BRIEN: ... the FEMA director, I think she's the deputy director of...

M. O'BRIEN: Of public affairs.

S. O'BRIEN: ... director of public affairs, by the way. We just want to fix that.

M. O'BRIEN: Right. Now, this next one, he apparently sent to an acquaintance. And I don't know what the back story of this conversation is very well. But basically he said: "I'm trapped now. Please rescue me." And, once again, that's probably something on the sarcastic side, a little bit of sarcasm or a little bit of hyperbole or something.

And then finally, this -- this is the one that really gets me, though, this morning. This comes from a FEMA employee. And this FEMA employee is offering help directly to the administrator, Mike Brown: "Mike, Mickey and other medical equipment people have a 42-foot trailer full of beds, wheelchairs, oxygen, concentrators, etc. They're wanting to take them where they can be used, but they need direction. If you could have someone contact him and let him know if he can be of service, he would appreciate it. We know you're busy, but they really want to help."

Four days later, four days, Mike Brown says, "Can we use these people?" to another person...

S. O'BRIEN: Now, keep in mind, that's September 2nd, was when the first e-mail was sent. So that's days after the hurricane struck. That offer of service, it's clearly desperate and people are now saying oh, gosh, here's what we have to help. And then -- so you're talking about four days later. September 6 is when he says, "Can we use these people?"

By September 6th, it had become so clear just in how many ways they needed to use those people, and many more people.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, one thought here. This is somebody going straight to the top here. He was out of the chain of command. I'm sure he was getting swamped with e-mails, he might not have seen it. Should that have gone up through other channels? I don't know. I'm just trying to -- you know, it's very difficult to get in the middle of an e-mail chain and figure out what was going on -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, but it raises lots of questions, certainly. I mean it raises a ton of questions. And this is just a small sampling of some of these e-mails that are, again, on the congressman's Web site, now just being made public.

M. O'BRIEN: And he's still on the payroll. Mike Brown still on the payroll, through the end of this month. We, all of us taxpayers, are paying his salary of $148,000.

S. O'BRIEN: We'll leave it at that.

Miles, thanks.

Coming up this morning, I'm going to talk to former President Jimmy Carter. He says there is a moral crisis here in America and it's hurting out nation. It's the subject, in fact, of a new book he's written. That's just ahead.

We're with the former president in just a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Former President Jimmy Carter has a new book out. His focus is America's moral crisis, as he calls it, and the state of politics in the United States. The book is called "Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis."

Former President Jimmy Carter joins us this morning from Washington, D.C.

Nice to see you, sir.

Thank you for talking with us.

FORMER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER, AUTHOR, "OUR ENDANGERED VALUES": Thank you, Soledad.

It's good to talk to you.

S. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much.

America has a moral crisis, you write.

What's the moral crisis?

CARTER: Well, this administration has abandoned almost all the basic premises on which our nation has become great, not just compared to Democrats versus Republicans, but compared to all the previous presidents, including George Bush, Sr. Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, all the way back to Dwight Eisenhower and others.

S. O'BRIEN: Abandoned what, exactly, in specific?

CARTER: Well, we have -- instead of having a peace program based on not going to war unless our own nation's security was directly threatened, we now have preemptive war, where we claim the right to go to war against people, bomb them, launch missiles against them, invade their country if we don't like the incumbent president of that country or if they think that some day in the distant future they might be a threat to us.

Also, the news has been full lately of our nation's abandonment of a basic commitment that our country has to protecting human rights. We are now debating, amazingly, whether our country should continue with this policy of torturing prisoners whom we have captured. This has never been thought about before in our country. We have built up enormous and unprecedented deficits, not because we are giving better services to the American people, but because we have had enormous and unprecedented tax breaks for the richest Americans.

S. O'BRIEN: You're right...

CARTER: And we've become an enemy of the environment instead of a protector of the environment in Washington.

So these are the kind of things that have abandoned what I consider to be the basic moral premises on which our country has been founded.

S. O'BRIEN: And you write that it's not what Americans want, but you -- someone could argue, well, clearly, elections happen and people win and there's a lot of support for these policies. So maybe it is what American people -- I mean what, you know, Americans...

CARTER: No. I don't agree with that at all. In fact, no one knows who won the election in 2000. I think Al Gore got the most votes all over the country, obviously. And I think he got most in Florida. That's a moot question now.

But in 2004, for instance, the presidential election was highly distorted by the inherent inclination of American people, 8 or 10 percent of them always, because of patriotism -- which I admire -- to vote for the incumbent president no matter what his policies might be if he seems to be the commander-in-chief at that moment of our young men and women overseas at war.

So that patriotism and the fear that Americans had engendered in them from terrorism, I think, was the overwhelming reason about the way the election came out in 2004. I don't believe the American people approve of going to war unnecessarily, bombing people who have not hurt us or abandoning our commitment to human rights or equity or damaging our environment. I don't believe the American people agree with that.

S. O'BRIEN: Let's talk about some of the stories that are in the news, because they relate very heavily, I think, to a lot of the themes you write about in the book.

CARTER: Yes?

S. O'BRIEN: For example, we're reporting today that European Union officials are now investigating these claims that first came up in the "Washington Post" about secret prisons in Europe and then the secret prisons would be where al Qaeda suspects were being interrogated.

What do you make of reports of that?

CARTER: It's an abomination. It's a discredit to our country. It's an embarrassment to our country. And it's a direct violation of the fact that America in the past has been looked upon as a champion of human rights, not the foremost highly publicized volunteer of human rights. And I think the United Nations' concern, the American people's concern, the Congress' concern and the European nations, as you mentioned, is justified.

We ought not to be doing that. It's a disgrace.

S. O'BRIEN: Aren't there lots of American people who would say this is a different war? I mean this is a war on terror and the people, in many cases, who are being targeted, you know, they're not Sunday school teachers. They are people who we've seen behead innocent American citizens and others in front of cameras.

CARTER: Well, the Geneva Accords were not written to protect prisoners of peace. The Geneva Accords, which we agree to abide by, which is the law of our land, was designed to protect prisoners of war, who have been at war against us, and this included Nazi Germany. It included the Japanese, who attacked Pearl Harbor. It includes terrorists, yes, and those who fought against us in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Certainly it does.

But those are the very ones that we were designed in this law to protect. And I think, as John McCain has pointed out, and as 90 senators have voted, it's completely improper and illegal for Americans to torture prisoners. I don't think there's any doubt about that as far as legality is concerned.

S. O'BRIEN: We should mention, again, investigative now. No indication of torture at that report...

CARTER: Oh, yes, there is.

S. O'BRIEN: ... as of this moment...

CARTER: Oh, yes, there is.

S. O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CARTER: There is direct evidence of torture in Guantanamo and in Abu Ghraib. In fact, 28 prisoners have been killed in prisons.

S. O'BRIEN: And I'm talking about the European prisons, the secret CIA prisons reported about in the "Washington Post" is what I'm trying to clarify.

But I want to ask you, before I let you go...

CARTER: OK.

S. O'BRIEN: ... about "Scooter" Libby; as you know, arraigned today. We saw pictures just a moment ago where he's leaving his house and pulling up toward the court. He obviously has resigned.

Do you think the president needs to clean house and -- or do you think his resignation is enough at this point? He's the only guy indicted. CARTER: I wouldn't want to give the president advice. I remember what Ronald Reagan did when the Iran-Contra scandal became prevalent. At first, the White House denied any involvement in it. Later, it was proven that there were some people in the White House that had been involved. Ronald Reagan went on television, apologized to the American people, said he made a mistake and then made some very dramatic changes in the White House personnel.

That may be a pattern for President Bush. I don't know. But I wouldn't want to advise President Bush on (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

S. O'BRIEN: I hate to say this, but he probably wouldn't take your advice anyway.

Former President...

CARTER: Maybe not after my book.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, definitely not after the book, actually.

The book is called "Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis." The author is the former president, Jimmy Carter.

Nice to see you, as always, sir.

Thanks for talking with us.

CARTER: It's a pleasure.

I enjoyed it.

S. O'BRIEN: Thank you.

Coming up this morning, James Lee Witt, the former FEMA director, will talk to Miles about these bizarre, sometimes, e-mails that we heard sent by Mike Brown, the also former FEMA director.

We're back in just a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Good morning.

Welcome back to CNN'S AMERICAN MORNING, live from the Algiers section of New Orleans.

We're here on the two month mark after hurricane Katrina, assessing how this city is recovering. And as we spend our time looking around here today, we see coming out of Washington, out of Congressman Melancone's office, some very interesting e-mail exchanges between former FEMA Director Mike Brown and his staffers and his acquaintances in the immediate aftermath of hurricane Katrina.

Joining us now is a former FEMA director, James Lee Witt. He's in Baton Rouge this morning. And he's had a chance to see some of these e-mails.

I just, James Lee Witt, I just want to share with you and our viewers just a couple of them to give you a flavor.

I know you've had a chance to see some of these this morning.

One of them is this. Mike Brown, right after Katrina, a message to his chief of public affairs. He says: "Can I quit now? Can I come home?"

Once again, that could be some sort of tongue in cheek type e- mail. But nevertheless, we put it out there for you to consider.

And then a response from Sharon Worthy, who was the public affairs officer, saying this: "Please roll up the sleeves of your shirt, all shirts, even the president rolled his sleeves to just below the elbow in this crisis and on TV you just need to look more hard- working."

So, it all seems rather trivial given what was going on.

And, James Lee Witt, I don't, you know, I'm sure if we took all of our e-mails in the context of important events, we might find some things we were kind of embarrassed about.

But having said that, what do you think these e-mails say about FEMA and Mike Brown?

JAMES LEE WITT, FORMER FEMA DIRECTOR: Well, you know, Miles, you always have to be careful what you put in e-mails because, you know, somebody is going to see them at some point. But, you know, I think it probably fits with pretty much how the response was. You know, the career employees at FEMA do a great job. And I still support them a great deal, and FEMA.

But this is absolutely unacceptable.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you this. If we got a hold of some of your e-mails in the midst of a crisis -- and pick a hurricane that you dealt with -- would there be conversations, traffic like this that could be taken out of context, perhaps...

LEE WITT: No, sir.

M. O'BRIEN: ... that you'd have to explain?

LEE WITT: I do not remember one of that nature, Miles. Of course, you know, sometimes during a crisis you do some tongue in cheek things that, you know, could be embarrassing, which is not a good thing. But I do not remember one -- any like that.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, certainly we can appreciate that in the news business. There is a bit of -- and humor is a stress relief, so we understand all of that. Let's move on.

You're working with the State of Louisiana, working for Governor Blanco, advising her on this relief post-Katrina, post-Rita. And as part of all of that, I know you met with the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, just last week.

How was that meeting? Was it satisfactory? And comment, if you would, about FEMA being under homeland security and how you feel that is working or not.

LEE WITT: Well, first, let me address Governor Blanco and what she's doing. You know, she's got a special session starting Sunday. And a lot of the issues she's addressing for the State of Louisiana is going to be in this session, like coastal erosion and the coastal recovery efforts; tax relief for citizens and businesses; levee reconstruction and pushing for cat five protection so people will know that they are being protected.

And the meeting with Secretary Chertoff went extremely well. And we put a lot of issues on his plate and, you know, he's already answered some of those and so -- and then, also, the Louisiana recovery authority, led by Andy Kopplin, also met with Andy Card and some of the other folks at the White House. And that meeting went real well.

So, you know, it gave them hope and it has given Governor Blanco and Louisiana hope that, you know, this is a partnership now and each has to pull its own weight and make this work for the people of Louisiana.

M. O'BRIEN: So do you have the sense, Mr. Witt, that the government is getting it now, that FEMA is being responsive? In other words, was Chertoff engaged?

LEE WITT: He really was, Miles, and I think that we've seen a complete turnaround. I know down in the joint operations center this week working with FEMA and all the other people there, it's like joined at the hip. They're all working together and working extremely hard and long hours.

So I feel much better about the way it's going today than any time before.

M. O'BRIEN: One...

LEE WITT: Miles, let me just say...

M. O'BRIEN: ... quick thought here.

LEE WITT: Let me just...

M. O'BRIEN: Yes?

LEE WITT: OK.

M. O'BRIEN: Go ahead.

LEE WITT: Let me just say this, too. I think, you know, you really should look at the cost per capita in the past disasters, like North Ridge or the hurricanes last year in Florida. You know, usually when you get to $110 cost per capita, that's about a 90-10 cost share. That's a -- that was measured at catastrophic events before this one. This event, Miles, is $7,500 per capita estimated cost right now. The magnitude of this is huge. And we've never ever in our history seen a per capita cost this high.

M. O'BRIEN: James Lee Witt, the former FEMA director, joining us from Baton Rouge, now working with the State of Louisiana, Governor Blanco's office.

Thanks very much for your time.

Back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WITT: This event, Miles, is $7,500 per capita estimated cost right now. The magnitude of this is huge. We've never ever in our history seen a per capita cost this high.

M. O'BRIEN: James Lee Witt, the former FEMA director joining us from Baton Rouge, now working with the state of Louisiana, Governor Blanco's office, thanks very much for your time.

Back with more in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: For Democrats and Republicans, Tuesday's closed-door session was really nothing to find much fun in. However, Jon Stewart, who always manages to find fun in something, of "The Daily Show" did have some fun with it. Let's listen to what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, "THE DAILY SHOW": As the closed-door session was happening inside the Senate, Republican leaders had gathered outside in the hallway to vent.

SEN. BILL FIRST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: About 10 minutes ago or so, the United States Senate has been hijacked by the Democratic leadership. Once again, it shows the Democrats use scare tactics. They have no principals no ideas. They have no conviction.

STEWART: Our party on the other hand, I think we're going to have plenty of convictions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

S. O'BRIEN: Let's talk about the legal troubles facing the party in fact. Jeff Toobin is CNN's senior legal analyst.

And in fact, at this moment Scooter Libby heading toward his arraignment.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN. SR. LEGAL ANALYST: That's a tough act to follow.

S. O'BRIEN: That is. You Know, Don't even try. Let's just stick to the facts. What's going to happen in the arraignment today?

TOOBIN: It probably will be a fairly brief proceeding. What will happen is the judge will just -- Reggie Walton, a fairly new judge on the federal district court will ask Scooter Libby if he wants the indictment read to him. He will undoubtedly say no. He's read it already. And then he will asks him how he pleads. Either he will say the words not guilty or his lawyer will say not guilty for him. And at that point, they'll start scheduling. That's what an arraignment really means in a big case like this. And I think we will start to say see today just how long it will be to get this case to trial. This is going to be complicated.

S. O'BRIEN: So it's going to be an important thing that comes not only for the legal date setting, but it gives -- it sets a tone also, and also from a PR perspective too.

TOOBIN: Right. And you'll see the level of hostility between the two parties. It's not entirely clear who will be trying the case for the government. It's not clear who Scooter Libby's lawyer is going to be. So there will be a lot of sort of setting the scene.

But keep an eye on one issue that I think will remind everyone just how complicated this case may be. A lot of the indictment refers to classified information.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, what do they do about that? Because that means, what witness is going to to talk about it?

TOOBIN: Well, you can't release classified information in open court. There's a law called the Classified Information Procedures Act, called SEPA, where both sides go to the judge before the trial and say, this is the classified information we want to use, rule on it in advance, and then we'll go to the intelligence agencies and see whether it can be used. Just describing it you can see how long that takes. That will be months. So I mean that's the kind of thing that's going to slow this trial down a lot.

S. O'BRIEN: So when you hear something like that, does that say to you, you know what, this isn't going to go to trial. This is going to be plea bargained out, because it benefits all sides.

TOOBIN: Y?ou know what, I don't think so.

S. O'BRIEN: Really?

TOOBIN: Because the way to do a plea bargain, to help your client, is to do it before an indictment. Now, Fitzgerald has no incentive to give him any sort of plea bargain unless he decides to flip on someone else, and there's no indication either that he wants to or that he has information on someone else.

S. O'BRIEN: Usually, though, don't these indictments end in a plea bargain? Or am I wrong about that?

TOOBIN: You know, not in a big white-collar case like that. The negotiations about pleas tend to be before indictment. Now, obviously, there's nothing that Fitzgerald can do to stop Libby from pleading to the indictment and saying I did it, but that's not a bargain. That's just a plea. I don't think that's going to happen.

S. O'BRIEN: I'm not a lawyer, and I even I know that's not a bargain.

TOOBIN: So I just think a plea bargain, if it was going to happen, probably would have happened already.

S. O'BRIEN: We've gotten a clue about what the defense may be from Scooter Libby's attorney, who said, you know, essentially, in a nutshell, he's busy, how can you remember conversations from a long time ago, he's talking to a lot of people, you know, he wasn't lying; it was just confusion.

TOOBIN: Right, and that's a common defense in perjury cases. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But remember, according to the indictment, the way the government is going to disprove that is by calling Dick Cheney to testify about conversations that he had with his chief of staff. That's going to be legally complicated too. The executive -- the vice president may want to exert executive privilege about certain conversations. There will be documents there will be controversy over, whether they can be disclosed to the defense or in public. Again, long delays and keeping the story in the news for a long time.

S. O'BRIEN: Which would be a bad thing.

TOOBIN: Well, unless you're me.

S. O'BRIEN: Right, and covering it, then it's only a god thing.

TOOBIN: Exactly. Right.

S. O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, as always, thanks.

Let's get back to Miles. He's in the Algiers section of New Orleans today -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Thanks very much, Soledad. We're on top of the levee here in Algiers. Gosh, it's a beautiful morning here in the city of New Orleans, and the Algiers section on this two-month mark since Katrina is one of the places that has really come back to life, because the damage wasn't so great there. All throughout this week we've been visiting neighborhoods, trying to really get an assessment of how things are going. We began in the French Quarter. We moved our way north toward the 17th Street levee area, where there was tremendous flooding, on to Saint Bernard Parish, finally here.

Really is a wild roller coast ride here. In many respects people are really at square one in some places. And yet, you come here, and it's like a normal morning. So it's very decieving, it's a huge swathes of tremendous damage and little pockets of normalcy, as well.

Our boss, our executive producer and vice president of morning programming, Kim Bondy, New Orleans native, lost -- well, or had a heavily damaged home in the wake of Katrina and has been with us all week. And she spent some time with the city council president Oliver Thomas, looking at some of these other neighborhoods.

KIM BONDY, CNN V.P. MORNING PROGRAMMING: Well, you know, I've gotten a lot of e-mails, Miles, about some of the neighborhoods in the city where, you know, people hadn't heard a lot about. And so I asked Oliver to take me sort of on a walking tour of two neighborhoods. So we went to what's called Broadmore and Holly Grove. And they're in uptown New Orleans.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BONDY: So, Oliver, this is what we know as the Broadmore area of the city.

OLIVER THOMAS, PRESIDENT, NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCIL: Yes, yes.

BONDY: How bad was it here? How much water did you get?

THOMAS: Gosh, we got about eight feet of water, in some cases more. You can see right here, it looks like about maybe nine feet -- eight or nine feet. And really, in some cases, the water was higher than the water line. That's just where it settled. So 10, 11 feet in places. I know I had eight feet in my house. But this is a working class community, whites, blacks, Hispanics.

BONDY: So Broadmore can be saved?

THOMAS: Oh, absolutely, man. Look at these big, beautiful houses. I mean, you know, people don't just come to New Orleans for the food and the music, you know. People come to New Orleans because, you know, the architecture. I mean, the homes.

I mean, where else are you going to find this kind of property, as much of it, in an inner city? Think about it. I mean, you would travel all over the country. In a lot of old communities like this, I mean, these -- I mean, a lot of this part of their history and culture is gone. We've preserved it here. Our neighborhoods and our people are our strengths.

BONDY: So we're in what we call Holly Grove.

THOMAS: We're in Holly Grove now.

BONDY: A lot of people outside of New Orleans may not know this neighborhood. THOMAS: Historical community up here. Working class African- American community. Just like we were in Broadmore with a mixed community, strong political history -- Holly Grove is just as rich, man, when you talk about culture, music, gosh, second line.

BONDY: That's right.

THOMAS: You know, Indian. I mean, Holly Grove is a rich community.

BONDY: I'm hopeful because I'm from here and I know that -- how important these neighborhoods are. But they took a beating.

THOMAS: Yes, they took a beating. You know, being from New Orleans, there's one thing you know about New Orleanians. We're survivors. I mean, look, our city has been dumped on for years, but we always come back. You know, this isn't generic USA. You know, a lot of people forget, the United States didn't give birth to New Orleans. New Orleans gave birth to the United States. We were here, you know.

It's always been the strong cultural city. It's always been a city of -- a city of color where people from all over the continent, all over the world, could come here and do their thing, their music, their food, you know, their dance. As wonderful as these buildings are, New Orleans is its people, to the core.

BONDY: Do you think that's the biggest tragedy out of this, is that we could lose some of the people that are true New Orleanians, the people who really make up the heart and soul of this city?

THOMAS: You know, absolutely. And I've told groups everywhere I've gone. With all of our problems, crime, unemployment, under- employment, illiteracy, we were still one of the great international cities in the world. Ten, 15 million people a year still came to New Orleans.

So in spite of all our problems, we were still an international draw. So that talks about how strong the culture is and how beautiful the culture is here. With all of those problems, what do people still say? Hey, now I'm going to New Orleans. And we want our people to come back to New Orleans, or it won't be New Orleans.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BONDY: So, Miles, those are two historic neighborhoods here in New Orleans, dating back to the 1800s. Wanted to tell you about a newer neighborhood, probably less than about 10, 15 years old, in east New Orleans, which is called Eastover. Multimillion-dollar homes and the people out there are anxious for answers. They're being told that they may not have electricity until January.

M. O'BRIEN: Wow. That's -- that's a lot of time to go without juice. You know, it's interesting, as you go through the city -- as Greg Meffert (ph) with the mayor's office said yesterday, the old houses have done well and the newer ones, built to the flood codes, have. It's that middle period that -- where houses are being damaged, ranch homes, that kind of thing.

BONDY: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, thank you very much, Kim Bondy.

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: We are going to take a break. When we come back, we're going to prove that a little warm coffee goes a long way. Our next guest actually procures and makes such products here in the Algiers section of New Orleans. And that, in and of itself, is a big deal when you look at what happened with Katrina, the fact that there's a coffee shop up and running and business is good. We'll check in with her after a break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: A lot of you at home right now...

BONDY: Slow down.

M. O'BRIEN: Probably taking for granted the fact that you can get a croissant. The fact that you can get a little bit of coffee and a pastry, that's really a big deal. In the Algiers section of New Orleans, there's a little coffee shop by the name Tout de Suite, and here's the owner arriving on her moped, a little Honda there. Jill Marshall, thanks for being with us.

We last talked to you I think about a month ago when Soledad was here. And at that time, you were back in business and actually business was pretty good. Still the same?

JILL MARSHALL, OWNER, TOUT DE SUITE: Yes. It's dropped off a lot, but we were swelling at the seams there for a little while. We had pretty much all the emergency workers, disaster relief. But they've all moved on to other parts of the city now, and we have some left, but it's not nearly what it was.

M. O'BRIEN: So, what you have left are the locals that are here, and most people have move backed to their homes here, because they're not as severely damaged, right?

MARSHALL: Right. Yes. But yes, most, but not all.

M. O'BRIEN: So as a result, business could be better. I'm curious what other issues you're running into? Problems? Just city services are obviously a real problem right now.

MARSHALL: Right. Trash pickup being the main thing. It's tough when you're a cafe, and you've got food and food waste and everything, so it's tough for that. I have to hire a private contractor to do that, and that costs me more money, you know. And I'm still paying taxes for the service which I'm not getting.

M. O'BRIEN: That may take some time before those come back because they're so overwhelmed, I know, with the 22 million tons of garbage that they're dealing with. You know, coffee shops are more than about excellent croissants and coffee, which I might say you have, they also become place where people meet, congregate, talk and share emotion. I bet you're seeing the full range of things. Are people angry? Are they sad? Where are people right now?

MARSHALL: Yes, all of it, every bit of it. Some -- yes, some feel angry, some feel betrayed, some feel let down that this wasn't dealt with, and tended before, and that it's not being tended to in a timely matter now. We don't know where we're going to be in six months when this starts all over again, you know. And definitely people are emotional. When they drive back into town and they come in to the coffee shop, I see a lot of tears, because they're seeing seeing it for the first time, you know, and they didn't -- the images on the TV are now kind of in a distant past, and they were thinking things might be cleaned up and different, but they're not.

Of course this neighborhood, you know, I mean is not a sample of what happened to New Orleans. I mean, this neighborhood looks beautiful and fine, and it's charming and lovely, but over there...

M. O'BRIEN: Over there, whole different thing.

MARSHALL: yes.

M. O'BRIEN: Jill Marshall with Too Sweet, thank you for the provisions, and we do appreciate that very much here, and thanks for dropping by and telling us how things are going.

Back to you, Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Miles, thanks.

Ahead this morning, Andy is "Minding Your Business." Something you can Google. Will it make your local library obsolete? We'll explain just ahead as we continue right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Andy, guess what I'm getting you for the holidays.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: I don't want to know.

S. O'BRIEN: A taser gun, because they're now selling them; they're on the market.

SERWER: How would you like to get that in your stocking?

S. O'BRIEN: No, thanks.

SERWER: Well, you've got four kids. I mean, you know, nevermind.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, that's not even funny.

SERWER: That's not even funny.

S. O'BRIEN: Andy is "Minding Your Business" this morning. That's one of our stories today.

SERWER: We'll talk that about that in a second. I want to talk about Google, first of all, because this is some pretty interesting stuff. You know, we talk about what a home run the stock has been, and one reason why it's such a winner is because the company is doing so many innovative things. For instance, they've announced they've completed their first major expansion of the Google search print function, and this is basically searching in books in major libraries, research libraries, but also a lot of bestsellers and books very -- books in the bookstores.

Here's here's how it works. For instance, you can put in, say, Dan Brown's name and a lot of his books will come up, and then you can search through them and look for things that you want to find. You can put Jarhead up, or if you put the word Iraq in, the book Jarhead will come up. That's a book about the war in Iraq. If you put in "white whale," Moby Dick will come up, and then you can search through an entire book, and find specific things that you're looking for.

S. O'BRIEN: That's a great thing.

SERWER: It really is pretty amazing. And Rosa Parks, we put that in. Not going to make libraries obsolete, we mentioned that, but it's, you know, really interesting. It's like iTunes in the early days, they don't have everything yet, but it's getting there.

S. O'BRIEN: How about the mini Tasers.

SERWER: Stunning story. Stunning. Listen, I can't believe this is true, but apparently Taser is marketing a stun gun for the consumer. That's right. They say that it's probably a good idea for people who come and go at odd hours.

S. O'BRIEN: That's us.

SERWER: We need them. There it is.

S. O'BRIEN: Who more than us?

SERWER: Compared to a cell phone here, a little bigger. Kind of evil looking there. And the big question is, hey, is this legal? And the answer is, in 43 states. yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Really? You can carry a stun gun in your handbag.

SERWER: Yes. Here's some states where you cannot do it, D.C., Maryland, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Wisconsin, Michigan, Hawaii. But everywhere else you can just buy one of these things, and if you feel the need...

S. O'BRIEN: Do you know how much they're selling it for?

SERWER: I do not know how much it sells for, maybe because I just didn't want to know. One-thousand dollars I'm being told, $1,000...

S. O'BRIEN: That's just crazy.

SERWER: And you can put one under the tree for your loved one, or maybe that's sending some kind of message. I -- yes. It's kind of rubs me the wrong way.

S. O'BRIEN: Kind of weird, but you know...

SERWER: They'll probably sell some I'll bet.

S. O'BRIEN: I'm sure they'll sell out in a flash, right?

SERWER: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Andy, thanks.

Let's get right back to Miles in the Algiers section of New Orleans today -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: You know, I think if you're kid asks for a stun gun for Christmas, don't get them. Bad idea.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, that would be -- not the BB gun, not the stun gun, not this year.

M. O'BRIEN: Flu shot maybe.

All right, we're going to take a break. When we return, we're going to check in with an expert on the whole notion of levees and flood walls. Why did they break? Why did they fail here? There's a lot of answers to that question, and one of the answers is, malfeasance and corruption possibly. We'll talk to an expert in just a moment.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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