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Your World Today

House of Commons Rejects Tony Blair's Terrorism Law; War in Iraq

Aired November 09, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news coming out of Britain. The prime minister there, Tony Blair, losing a key vote in his fight to bring antiterrorism laws, tougher antiterrorism laws, to Britain. We are going to join our international partner, CNN International, as they continue their coverage of this breaking news event.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN EUROPEAN POLITICAL EDITOR: ... the first significant defeat -- well, it is the first real defeat of any kind for Tony Blair since he came to power. Of course, we are in a changed parliamentary situation now in the sense that for the first two parliaments he was in charge, he's had a majority of around 160. This time, he's only got a majority of 66. And in a vote on the terrorist bill last week, we saw the majority drop to only one.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Yes. Sorry to interrupt, Robin.

I want to welcome our viewers around the world, of course, who have been with us throughout this, and also to viewers in the United States just joining us for YOUR WORLD TODAY, an hour of world news coming to you from CNN Center.

What we are watching here -- and Robin Oakley joining us as well, our European political editor -- has been a fairly dramatic day in the British parliament. We have just witnessed the British lawmakers in the House of Commons rejecting British Prime Minister Tony Blair's draft law which would, among other things, allow terrorism suspects to be held for up to three months without charge.

A very controversial provision. That provision has been defeated in just the last few minutes, 322 votes to 291. A close vote.

Robin Oakley has been explaining to us that now we can expect a series of compromises. Perhaps 60 days without charge being proposed, 28 proposed days without charge. The next vote apparently going to be held in 28 days.

Robin, will you just explain for those viewers who are just joining us, in particular around the United States, what this means for Tony Blair. As we said just a couple of minutes ago, his first major -- his first parliamentary defeat of any kind since coming to power in '97.

He had pushed heavily for this, said that the police wanted it. He has now lost.

How badly does it hurt him?

OAKLEY: It certainly dents him, because slowly and steadily power is seeping away from Tony Blair. Ever since he said that he would not lead his party into the next general election and would at some stage during the life of this parliament hand over to a successor, who most people expect to be Gordon Brown, the chief economic minister, the chancellor of the Exchequer, that immediately began to lessen Mr. Blair's authority just a little.

Now, he's been driving on, trying to leave some kind of political legacy behind him with strong reforms to public services, health, education, and so on, involving a lot more privatization, which a lot of his own MPs don't like. And so we have seen rebellions within his own Labor Party on those issues. More expressed publicly through the media at the moment than in House of Commons votes.

We've seen a battle between Tony Blair's ministers in cabinet over how far they went on an anti-smoking ban in public places. We've seen him last week lose one of his key allies. Top cabinet minister David Blunkett forced to resign for the second time, although Tony Blair had said that he hadn't done enough wrong and didn't need to go. He was unable to save him against the media onslaught that Mr. Blunkett suffered.

So, in every way, Mr. Blair's authority is quietly being chipped away.

On this particular vote and this particular bill, he went full frontal on the question of the police having the right to detain terrorist suspects for up to 90 days without charge. Others within his government, including his home secretary, Charles Clarke, were ready to compromise on a lesser figure, knowing how controversial this particular stipulation was and how many people felt it was a step too far in terms of civil rights.

Mr. Blair overruled his home secretary, didn't make the concessions that people were expecting to be made. All he offered was a so-called sunset clause to say that the law would only apply for a single year without having to be renewed by MPs.

So, in a sense, he's gambled his authority. He said it wasn't a question of his own authority. He said this was a practical measure proposed by the police, not some political scheme that he had dreamed up, he and his government. But even so, it will be taken as a blow against his authority -- Michael.

HOLMES: Yes, indeed. As you say, he was trying to make it non- political, saying, well, hang on, this is what the police wanted. It's not what I want.

However, this is now raising questions about his -- in many way, his grip on power. It comes at a time when Tony Blair, the U.S.'s greatest ally, perhaps, in the war in Iraq, was suffering something of a slump himself. Stay with us, Robin. We want to listen to what Tony Blair said before this vote was taken. Making an impassioned plea to those in the Commons.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We are not living in a police state, but we are living in a country. We are living in a country that faces a real and serious threat of terrorism, terrorism that wants to destroy our way of life, terrorism that wants to inflict casualties on us without limit.

And when those charged with protecting our country provide, as they have, a compelling case for action, then I know what my duty is. My duty is to support them. And so is the duty, in my view, of every member of this house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: That is the impassioned plea to the House of Commons. It fell on at least 322 deaf ears as this provision goes down.

Now, Robin, the next vote we understand is in perhaps 10 minutes or so from now. And it will be on the compromise of saying, OK, 90 days is lost, let's go 28 days. He's going to have probably more chance of success with that.

OAKLEY: Almost certainly he'll be able to get that one through, because the main opposition party, the conservatives, are willing to back an extension from 14 days to 28 days.

I think one of the reasons why he wasn't able to get support for the 90 days was that people began to feel that the whole raft of antiterrorist legislation was going just a bit too far to please some of the right wing editorialists in the media. And that Tony Blair was becoming a little bit careless of the civil rights questions -- Michael.

HOLMES: All right. Robin Oakley, our European political editor. Thanks very much, bringing this all into perspective.

A very important, very dramatic day in British politics. Tony Blair, the British prime minister, losing what he wanted to be a successful motion to pass a new provision in the anti-terror bill to allow suspects to be detained for 90 days without charge. It has been defeated, as we said.

Another vote in about 10 minutes on the compromise of 28 days. We will bring that to you live when it happens.

Once again, welcoming our viewers around the world and the United States to YOUR WORLD TODAY -- Zain.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: In the United States, Republican lawmakers are calling for an investigation into the possible leak of classified information about secret U.S. prisons overseas. The story ended up on the front page of "The Washington Post," which broke the news.

It reports that the CIA is holding terror suspects at sites throughout Europe. Republican leaders say the leak could harm U.S. national security. But at least one Republican senator is saying the leak probably came from his own party.

HOLMES: That brings us to our e-mail inbox this day.

VERJEE: Our question for you today is this: Will western tactics work against terrorism? E-mail us your thoughts at YWT@CNN.com. Just keep your responses brief and tell us your name and where you are writing from as well. And we are going to try to read as many e-mails as we get on the air.

HOLMES: All right. Let's move on.

Chinese police have warned upscale hotels of a possible attack by Islamic extremists over the coming week. The U.S. embassy is passing that warning along, telling Americans staying in four or five-star hotels in China to review their plans carefully, remain vigilant with regard to their personal security, and exercise caution.

This warning goes on, "Reports should be made to local police if one notices unusual activities in or around these areas."

That warning comes ahead of U.S. President George W. Bush's trip to China, which is to take place next week.

Australian police, meanwhile, have carried out another raid overnight in an effort to flush out potential terrorists. This latest raid at a home in Sydney on the country's east coast. They say no one was arrested, but several items were seized. Authorities also formally charged Omar Balajam (ph), a former television actor in Australia, with terror offenses and intent to murder. He was injured, shot, in fact, during police raids on Tuesday, remains in hospital.

Meanwhile, detectives are examining computers and chemicals seized in the operation. Chemicals similar to those used in the London bombings. Police say those suspects were stockpiling chemicals for bombs. They had not yet, however, settled on a target -- Zain.

VERJEE: Michael, U.S. Marines are ending a major operation near Iraq's border with Syria. The objective of the Operation Steel Curtain was to take out insurgents that had used the area as a safe haven.

Aneesh Raman joins us now live from Baghdad with more.

Aneesh, was that objective successfully achieved? And what do we know of civilian casualties?

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Zain, the U.S. military announcing that, along with Iraqi forces, they have secured the city of Husaybah. That had been the focal point of Operation Steel Curtain. But CNN producer Awar Daman (ph) and cameraman Neil Hallsworth (ph), who are embedded with the U.S. Marines there, today came across two homes that residents say were housed not by insurgents, but by civilians that were destroyed in air strikes that were part of this operation.

We're going to show you the video now. In the first home, our producer and cameraman were shown -- there you see -- some seven bodies. They were told it included a 3 and a 5-year-old sister and brother. You can see the pain palpable in these civilians who say they were victims of this operation as well.

At the second home, the video you see there, there were some 17 family members hidden under the debris. The angry residents trying to dig through and find those victims. We were told later that they did find all of them and they will be burying the dead tomorrow.

But this is symptomatic of the type of warfare that U.S. and Iraqi forces confront here, guerrilla urban warfare, where friend and foe are at times identical. And the U.S. military tonight, of course, reiterating to us that they do everything possible to minimize civilian casualties in operations such as this where the fighting is in and around homes, in these cities like Husaybah.

But at the same time, the key to this ending -- and we've spoken to Iraqi government officials as well -- is essentially better intelligence. Iraqi security forces rising up in terms of prominence and getting better intelligence as to where the insurgents are operating.

That is what will prevent scenes like this from occurring again. But the U.S. military tonight announcing that the city is secure, a city that for months had been an insurgent stronghold. Clearly though, the effects of urban warfare, the unintended consequences of civilian casualties, also seems to have taken place -- Zain.

VERJEE: On the issue, Aneesh, of Saddam Hussein's trial, his lawyer saying that they are not going to participate in the trial unless some sort of solution for their own protection is found, right?

RAMAN: Yes. We saw today the burial of Adil Mohammed Zubaidi, who was the lawyer for Taha Yassin Ramadan, one of the seven co- defendants of Saddam Hussein in this first trial.

At stake now is whether this trial proceeds. It is set to resume on November 28. The defense lawyers, the ones that remain -- this is the second attack. A day after the trial commenced, Saadoun Janabi was killed.

The remaining lawyers are saying they want an international investigation into these assassinations. They are calling at times for a change of venue if not, for the very least, a further delay beyond November 28. So, it's unclear what we could see when this trial resumes -- Zain.

VERJEE: Reporting from Baghdad, CNN's Aneesh Raman.

HOLMES: Much happening around the world. We are just getting started here on YOUR WORLD TODAY. VERJEE: Just ahead, going behind the razor wire, the controversy over techniques the U.S. uses in gathering intelligence from suspected terrorists.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Live pictures coming to you from the House of Commons in London. British lawmakers just a short time ago voted to reject Tony Blair's new law that he put before the House of Commons requesting, among other things, that terror suspects be detained for up to 90 days without any charge whatsoever.

Now, what has happened in the last couple of minutes is a new or an amended bill was put before the MPs in the House of Commons saying, well, OK, not 90 days without charge. How about 28 days without charge?

That has just passed just a few seconds ago, 323 saying yes, 290 saying no. Very close to a reverse of the numbers which rejected the 90 days.

Robin Oakley, our European political editor, is in London watching all of this.

Now, this is a major defeat for Tony Blair. His first defeat since he came to office in 1997 in the parliament, in fact. The passing of the 28 days, now just explain to us, Robin, is that it, or can this be amended again?

OAKLEY: It's possible that the government or Back Bencher, who is supportive of the government, will put forward another amendment extending the 28 days to 60 days. We'll have to wait and find out whether the government has calculated that it can bring -- have that brought forward and have a chance of winning the vote, because it would be humiliating to lose two votes on this issue.

The government may decide now that they are just going to settle for the extension from 14 days to 28 days for the police to be able to hold terrorist suspects without charging them. But that, I think, is not absolutely certain at the moment.

What is certain is that Tony Blair's authority has taken a big blow. And perhaps prophetically. He said it in an impassioned question time earlier today, "Sometimes it is better to do the right thing and lose, then to do the wrong thing and win."

Now, he invested his full personal authority in the call from the police for the extension to 90 days of their right to hold terrorist suspects without charge. Basically accepting the argument that in the days of mass murder terrorism, you couldn't afford to take chances. And that the police needed more than 14 days, as they put it, because when they take in suspects in such cases, there are computer files to be de-encrypted, there are mobile phone records to be checked.

There's lots of translation to be done if there's an international aspect, international contacts to be followed up. And you simply can't do that in 14 days.

Mr. Blair said, look, to all the MPs, he said, you've got to be responsible. You've got to back the police on this, those who vote against the idea will be creating an extra risk for the British public.

A lot of MPs simply weren't prepared to go along with that because they feel that Britain is taking this a great deal further than almost certainly any other country in Europe -- Michael.

HOLMES: Political high drama. It's interesting to note, Robin, of course, that Tony Blair dramatically recalled two of his top ministers from overseas to try to win this vote. Pretty much put his own personal authority in the House of Commons on the line by saying you need to vote for this, it is your duty to support this measure.

We've been told that the government has now accepted the 28 days. What does this do for him politically? Even if he's not running for prime minister next time, someone else in his party is.

OAKLEY: Yes, I mean, all of that is true. And he did recall both Gordon Brown, the chief economic minister, the chancellor of the Exchequer, from Israel, Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, from Moscow, heightening the whole drama.

I think there's another explanation for the fact that Gordon Brown was pulled back, because he's the man most likely to succeed Tony Blair when he does step down as party leader and prime minister. And I think Mr. Blair wanted to try and separate the question of his own personal authority from the argument about what the police were asking for here. And to have Gordon Brown come back and support him in the case lessened the question of the focus on Mr. Blair's own authority -- Michael.

HOLMES: Robin Oakley, our European political editor, thanks so much for that.

Just repeating the news that the vote is now 20 -- for the 28 days, has been passed. We are told the British government has accepted that.

A stinging defeat politically for Tony Blair. He had said that adoption of 90 days without charge provision was absolutely vital. He said it was the duty of MPs to support it. There was much dissent within the British community, particularly the Muslim community, saying that that was a very divisive move to essentially lock people up without charge for 90 days without any evidence being required.

So there you have it. We'll keep an eye on developments out of London. Tony Blair, George W. Bush's biggest supporter in the war in Iraq, taking a very strong political defeat there.

VERJEE: Absolutely.

We are going to bring you more straight ahead. The day after people went to the polls in many U.S. states, the Democratic Party celebrating several victories.

HOLMES: Did anti-Bush sentiment play a part in those wins? Coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Daryn Kagan at CNN Center in Atlanta. More of YOUR WORLD TODAY in just a few minutes. First, though, let's check on stories making headlines here in the U.S.

A new trial for Andrea Yates. A Texas appeals court will not review a ruling overturning her murder convictions. Police say Yates admitted that she drowned her five children in 2001, but she argued she was not guilty by reason of insanity.

Yates' attorneys say that she suffers from postpartum psychosis. It's possible Yates' defense team will work out a plea agreement with prosecutors now that would avoid a second trial.

Her convictions were thrown out because a prosecution witness gave false testimony, and that concerned the TV show "Law and Order" and whether an episode influenced Yates. That episode turns out didn't exist.

Here's what her lawyer told me about that earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE PARNHAM, ANDREA YATES' ATTORNEY: The forensic psychiatrist who was the state's witness, Park Dietz, testified falsely during the guilt or innocence phase. That testimony was used by the prosecution in cross-examining one of our experts, as well as in arguing to a jury that she was calculated and cold in doing what she did.

That testimony was false. And the case was reversed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Andrea Yates' five children were between the ages of six months and seven years.

Within the past hour, an explosion destroyed a house in Lexington, Massachusetts. Details are sketchy at this moment as we look at live pictures. It is unclear whether there are any fatalities in the house.

Two people raking leaves were injured. No word on what caused that blast.

In Evansville, Indiana, residents of a tornado-decimated mobile home park are being allowed back home to see if anything can be salvaged. They have just two hours to see the devastation that claimed 18 of their neighbors.

Here are some of the 911 tapes of panicked residents calling for help early Sunday morning.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OPERATOR: 911.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please help! I'm at (INAUDIBLE). Please!

OPERATOR: Well, you better quit screaming. I can't understand your address.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My house just fell down!

OPERATOR: OK. What's your address?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE), please!

OPERATOR: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

OPERATOR: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KAGAN: Four other people were killed outside Evansville in neighboring Warrick County. Dozens remain hospitalized.

To Virginia now. A training flight turns deadly. A small plane, a Piper PA-28, crashed this morning near Leesburg, killing both people onboard. Authorities say a witness reported that the single engine plane went down in a wooded area shortly after takeoff from Leesburg Airport. The plane was used bay flight school for pilot training.

And live pictures now from Capitol Hill. Some of the nation's top oil executives are on the hot seat on Capitol Hill this hour. They are facing questions from a Senate committee about record profits at a time when consumers were hit with soaring gas prices.

Here's a look at oil industry profits for the first nine months of the year.

ExxonMobil posted more than $25 billion. Shell just under $21 billion. And ConocoPhillips came in at about $10 billion.

Senators questioned the executives about how prices are set.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. Pete DOMENICI (R), NEW MEXICO: I want to ask you, and please, in the few minutes you have, somebody describe in detail how the price of oil is set. Because I close by saying, if that is not rational, then are you rigging the price of oil?

(END VIDEO CLIP) KAGAN: Some lawmakers have called for a windfall profit tax on oil companies to help low-income consumers pay spiraling energy costs.

On now to election 2005. Democrats are savoring victories in two governors' races.

In California, voters have rejected a slate of ballot measures backed by GOP Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

To New Jersey. Democratic U.S. Senator Jon Corzine defeating Republican challenger Doug Forrester for the governorship.

And in Virginia, Democrat Lieutenant Governor Tim Kaine beat Republican Jerry Kilgore for the state's highest office.

California voters rejected all four of the ballot initiatives pushed by Schwarzenegger. He reached out to Democrats, calling for the state to move forward.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I recognize that we also need more bipartisan corporation to make it all happen. And I promise I will deliver that, because Californians believe that the state is on the wrong track. Californians believe that we need reform.

We need change. But the people of California are sick and tired of all the fighting. And they are sick and tired of all those negative TV ads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Labor unions spent millions of dollars to defeat Schwarzenegger's initiatives.

Famous names and faces earning a very distinguished honor at the White House this afternoon. Live coverage as President Bush hands out presidential medals of freedom. That's coming up on "LIVE FROM."

Meanwhile, YOUR WORLD TODAY continues after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY right here on CNN International. I'm Michael Holmes.

VERJEE: And I'm Zain Verjee.

(NEWSBREAK)

HOLMES: French Prime Minister Dominique Devillepin says France is facing a moment of truth after failing to integrate African and Arab immigrants.

CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour reports now on life among those who struggle to find a place in French society.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the France that everyone knows and many love. Notre Dame Cathedral, on the River Seine, the Place de la Concorde.

(on camera): And right on the same spot, the National Assembly, where despite France's multicultural makeup, there is not a single black, Muslim, or Arab member of parliament.

Just as Hurricane Katrina exposed racism and poverty in the United States, these riots have done the same here.

(voice-over): At Beur FM, the first radio station for France's Arab speakers, there is pop music and serious talk that the French way of integration has failed.

AHMED EL KEIYI, EDITOR IN CHIEF, BEUR FM: If we're talking about equality, so everybody has to be equal. And in France, it's not the case. Because we see people -- 10 percent of the population -- who has not the same opportunities, and not the same chances then the other part.

AMANPOUR: Here, on the fashionable, intellectual Left Bank, people are embarrassed and defensive about the violence. And yet they know it is a wakeup call. Jean (ph), Henri (ph), and Oreleon (ph) all go to the So Bon (ph), where they have some classmates with names with names Mohammed, Abdul and Fared.

At the So Bon (ph) we have many students with these names, says Henri (ph). They're French and have the best grades, but they'll have much more difficulty than us finding a job when they graduate.

Like 21-year old Karim (ph) from the Projects. According to an official French study, applicants with Arab sounding names have their resumes rejected five times as often as those with traditional French names.

It's impossible, says Karim (ph). You apply, you send letters; they never reply or they say there's no work, not even part-time.

Unlike in the United States or England, there is no Affirmative Action here. France does not officially recognize ethnic minorities. Instead, right wing parties making hay out of this violence, wrap themselves in the flag and declare France: Love her or leave her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you love the French? You (inaudible). You don't like the French, you go home. Voila. Suplemon (ph).

AMANPOUR: Even in the hot zones, residents are beginning to demonstrate against the wanton burning of sports halls and nurseries, but perhaps the violent message is getting through. Along with curfews, the prime minister promises to fast track urban renewal programs and to help the poor, the young, with schooling and jobs. (END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: For more on the violence in France and the government's efforts to get to the root of the problem, Jim Bittermann joins us now from Paris.

Jim, are the curfews working? Or is there a sense that the violence is running out of steam?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's hard to say what exactly is happening, Zain, in terms of the violence. There certainly was a lot less violence last night than the previous night. About half as many attacks in about half as many cities. It may be just the psychological effect of the curfews, because in fact the curfews weren't in place in that many cities last night, a handful perhaps, and so it's not known whether it's just the idea that there might be curfews imposed. Certainly the idea of a curfew could certainly dissuade the rioters from taking to the streets, because the penalties are as much as two months in prison.

And then today, the tough talking interior minister here, Nicolas Sarcosi, made it clear that anybody arrested and sentenced in this rioting, whether they are legal immigrants or illegal immigrants, will be expelled from the country. So that kind of thing can have a great deal of dissuasion in terms of any potential rioters out there.

So far this evening, one thing we know is that the city of Nice has imposed a curfew this evening that'll go into effect from 10:00 until 5:00 in the morning, and it will include the closing of some bars in some parts of Nice, and that's going to go on for some days ahead. We don't know how many other cities are going to impose curfews this evening. But it could very well be a dissuasive factor that could dissuade some of these rioters from taking to the streets tonight -- Zain.

VERJEE: Jim Bittermann reporting to us from Paris, thanks -- Michael.

HOLMES: Well, the U.S. military has issued new guidelines that prohibit torture. The volatile issue which first surfaced with the Abu Ghraib Prison scandal in Iraq dogged U.S. President George W. Bush on his recent trip to Latin America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are finding terrorists and bringing them to justice. We are gathering information about where the terrorists may be hiding. We are trying to disrupt their plots and plans. Anything we do to that effort, to that end, in this effort, any activity we conduct is within the law. We do not torture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Last week "The Washington Post" newspaper reported that the CIA has secret prisons for suspected terrorists in Eastern Europe. All that has reignited the debate over torture.

Tom Foreman reports now and explores the issues that stir that debate.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN (voice-over): If you could save the life of a soldier, rescue the hostage children; stop the next terrorist bomb by torturing a prisoner for information, would you do it?

JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, MAJOR GENERAL, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I'd stick a knife in somebody's thigh in a heartbeat.

FOREMAN (on camera): Retired General "Spider" Marks, a CNN consultant, worked for U.S. Army Intelligence, teaching interrogation

MARKS: The kinds of enemies we're fighting have no sense of right or wrong. They will go to any depths to achieve their ends.

FOREMAN: Do we have to go with them?

MARKS: We don't need to go with them. We need to preclude them from going there. And that might include some use of torture in order to prevent it.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Polls have shown that more than 60 percent of Americans think torture can sometimes be justified. But here is the catch. Experts, including General Marks, are convinced with the vast majority of prisoners, it just doesn't work.

MARK JACOBSEN, FORMER OFFICIAL, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE: It does not give you credible, accurate, timely and actionable intelligence.

FOREMAN: Mark Jacobsen, a former Defense Department official, outlines the troubles. You need to know a prisoner has critical information. The prisoner must be susceptible to torture. And, oh by the way,

JACOBSEN: When people are tortured, when people endure physical pain, they're going to seek to stop that as quickly as possible.

(voice-over): If I torture you, you're going to tell me exactly what I expect to hear.

FOREMAN: The White House, under fire over reports of secret CIA prisons overseas, says torture is not allowed. But,

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, PRESS SECRETARY, WHITE HOUSE: We are going to do what is necessary to protect the American people. We are also going to do so in a way that adheres to our laws and to our values. We have made that very clear.

(END VIDEO CLIP) FOREMAN: The definition of torture is: Infliction of severe physical as a means of punishment or coercion. Legal authorities around the world are arguing over what that means. Some insist the abuses at that Iraqi prison easily qualify, along with sleep deprivation, humiliation, extreme fear. Others say those things don't even come close.

The global jury is still out. And even experts are pondering a paradox.

(on camera): So in your experience and in your view, torture as a policy should be against the law?

MARKS: True.

FOREMAN: And yet, we might still have to use it.

MARKS: True.

FOREMAN (voice-over): And wondering which truth about torture will stand in a dangerous world. Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: All right, let's get some more on the issue now from Karin Ryan, the senior adviser for human rights at the Carter Center right here in Atlanta. Karin, thanks for coming.

We heard there in Tom's report, there is a definition of torture. But is the definition tight enough or is it too loose, still?

KARIN RYAN, CARTER CENTER: Well, I think, you know, as they say, you know it when you see it. And I think for the American public, those images that came out of Abu Ghraib were definitely something very humiliating that they would consider to be torture. And of course the image abroad of the United States is very important, as well. And the world community has reacted to this very strongly and our image has suffered greatly.

I think what's important is that this issue is very current now because Senator McCain has stepped forward. Hardly someone who doesn't have very strong credentials on security for the United States, on defense issues. But he himself has said, you know, this is torture, we must stop it, we must ban it.

HOLMES: And then, for viewers around the world, Senator John McCain, of course, a former Vietnam prisoner of war who himself was tortured.

RYAN: That's right.

HOLMES: There is little evidence, according to most studies, that torture actually works. Do you agree with that?

RYAN: Well, it's logical. And in this so-call new war that we're fighting, if you just use your own imagination, that if in the so-called ticking bomb scenario, where someone has information, but they are willing to sacrifice their life for their cause, why would they give us the bit of information that would lead the interrogator to that bomb, et cetera? They would probably -- it's more likely that they would give them information that would take them off the track, give them a scent off the track that would lead them in the wrong direction.

So, you know, the very slim possibility that maybe a piece of information might be gainable through torture -- if you put that on one side of the scale, and on the other side of the scale you put all the negative consequences of having a policy of torture, as it appears we seem to have now, and the image, the terrible consequences for U.S. image, the question then remains, is that a smart policy?

HOLMES: But the proponents of those who say it should be an option in the most extreme of cases where they know they have a bad guy, they know he knows something. These are extraordinary times. Are not there some times when extraordinary measures must be taken?

RYAN: I say if anybody -- if any of the viewers watch the show "24," there's a Jack Bauer character. And all of the -- anybody would sympathize with that situation. And, you know, myself, I'm a mother. If I had information that someone was going to harm my children, I would take extraordinary measures. I would do anything to stop that.

And there are circumstances where an individual has to make that choice. I'm not saying that could never happen. But that person who is making that choice would take the consequences. The problem now is we have a policy that has been exposed now by the CIA's own inspector general. This morning in "The New York Times," it was reported that the CIA itself is concerned that these methods exceed the bounds of American values.

HOLMES: OK. All right. Karin Ryan at the Carter Center, thanks so much.

RYAN: Thank you.

VERJEE: Still ahead, an update of the day's top stories. Also coming up, a young survivor, a Pakistani boy, finds it tough to look ahead to the future after the loss of many of his school friends in the earthquake.

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VERJEE: Welcome back to YOUR WORLD TODAY.

The World Health Organization says it's stepping up preventive health measures at a tent camp in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. Hundreds of earthquake survivors there have come down with acute diarrhea. Officials are investigating whether infectious cholera is to blame.

Meanwhile, Pakistan and India opened a second crossing at the Kashimiri line of control. Aid was exchanged across a wooden foot bridge, but there were no civilian crossings. HOLMES: So many earthquake victims are in need that individual stories of survival can sometimes be overlooked. But Stan Grant found one such story. It is of a boy, his dreams, and a life shattered by this disaster.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hamzah Nazir can name the entire Australian cricket team. He gets a kick out of this, pleased to know I am from Australia. Cricket is his passion. He dreams of one day playing for his own country, Pakistan -- or he did dream. Hamzah has stopped dreaming this past month. He tries not to. It's his way of coping with the earthquake.

Eleven-year-old Hamzah doesn't have as any of his playmates anymore. As he shows me through his school, he tells me of his friends now gone. Astonishingly, 300 or 400 children, he tells me, crushed when his school and others suddenly collapsed.

(on camera): Do you miss your friends?

HAMZAH NAZIR, EARTHQUAKE SURVIVOR: Yes, very.

GRANT: You used to play with them?

NAZIR: Yes, we were playing and I was (INAUDIBLE).

GRANT: Do you think about them?

NAZIR: They are very good friends I've made, but they go to the Lord.

GRANT (voice-over): Hamzah struggles so hard not to led me see him cry. And Hamzah could so easily himself have been among the dead. He shows me here his home destroyed. For a frightening moment, he lay trapped under the rubble.

NAZIR: My mother was outside and father also. One brother was in the house. They are no longer in the house and I was trapped.

GRANT: Throughout the day, we talk more, quietly, slowly, about the earthquake, and his worst fears.

NAZIR: I think that I am -- died.

GRANT: For Hamzah's father, Nazir, the memory is almost too painful to recall. "Suddenly, it happens," he tells me. "I was so worried. I think my children are in the house. I think to myself, what happened?"

Hamzah, luckily, had only minor injuries, but psychologically, the wound runs deep. Hamzah tenderly holds my hand for reassurance as he shows me the tent his family now calls home.

(on camera): Do you sleep in this bed?

NAZIR: Yes.

GRANT: Who sleeps here? Who sleeps in this one?

NAZIR: My father.

GRANT: His family is making the most of a tough situation. Hamzah's father worries that the tent will not be enough to hold out the coming winter. Still, Hamzah's mother, father, older brothers, and sisters are thankful they are all together. But Hamzah survived being trapped.

His mother tells me she loves Hamzah so much, even more now after she almost lost him. I ask his mother how Hamzah is coping with the loss of his friends? A deeply religious woman, she tells me, "It is God's will," but admits the pain is great.

"As I love my child, I loved his friends just like my own," she says. "But what can we do? What can we do? Only God knows. But thank God our child survives."

She lightens up when I ask her about her little boy, Hamzah, what he is like. Affectionately she call him a naughty little boy. And as far as his cricket ambitions, well, she sounds like mothers the world over. "First he should recite the holy Koran, then get an English education, then I will allow him to play cricket," she says. "Without an education, there is no cricket."

That wave of the finger says it all. And slowly throughout my day with Hamzah, signs of that cheeky little boy returns. Is he naughty, I ask?

NAZIR: I am just sometimes after one or two, yes.

GRANT: And Hamzah, a little boy who lost his friends, who stopped playing, is learning to laugh again. It's not a cricket ball, but it is a start. Many have said a generation was lost in the earthquake, but the new day must bring new life. And it is Hamzah and others like him, the little survivors, who are showing us the dreams of children cannot so easily be buried.

Stan Grant, Bagh, CNN, Pakistan-controlled Kashmir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VERJEE: Time for the inbox now. We've been asking you about how countries are handling the war on terror.

Yes, the specific question has been, will Western tactics work against terrorism? Some of your replies now. Cedric writes from here in the United States, "The Western tactics will not prevent or deter the war on terror. Any real or perceived or action against Muslims will only increase the violence.

Idowu from Malaysia says, "Western tactics will achieve very little. We need an understanding of the grievances of those inclined to terrorism. No one blows himself up for nothing."

Rob in the United States, "Western practices and policies will not quell terrorism. If we are to effectively shut them down, it will take us employing their own means and efforts against them.

And Abbas in Canada tells us, "These methods will only increase hatred unless the U.S. changes its behavior toward Muslims. They can keep dreaming that they'll have peace in their own country."

YWT@CNN.com, let us know what you think. This has been YOUR WORLD TODAY.

I'm Zain Verjee.

HOLMES: She is, I'm Michael Holmes. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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