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Nancy Grace

Police Discover Burned Remains at Wisconsin Salvage Yard

Aired November 10, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HARRIS FAULKNER, GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Human bones, human teeth -- police come across a gruesome scene at a Wisconsin car salvage yard, where they say it looks like somebody may have burned a body. Is this where Teresa Halbach ended up? The beautiful photographer vanished Halloween night? Plus, a husband in court today for spiking his wife`s Gatorade with anti-freeze, enough to kill her.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Harris Faulkner, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Tonight, breaking news inside the courtroom. Missouri radio talk show host James Keown appears in court facing charges he slowly killed his own wife by lacing her Gatorade with deadly anti-freeze.

But first tonight, breaking news in a Wisconsin town, where the burned pieces of human bones and teeth were discovered in an auto salvage yard. Are they the remains of missing Teresa Halbach?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Steven, I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot to take photos for "The Auto Trader," correct?

STEVEN AVERY, QUESTIONED IN TERESA HALBACH`S DISAPPEARANCE: Yes, she did. She came down by me.

GRACE: OK. And Steven, it`s my understanding that also, you state that you saw her car leave.

AVERY: Yes, I did.

GRACE: How is it that her car could get all the way back in this pit area?

AVERY: Well, on the outskirts of the office (INAUDIBLE) back by me or back by Redon`s (ph) pit, in the corner, is all open.

GRACE: It`s all open.

AVERY: Yes. Anybody can drive in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: So they had Teresa`s car, but they didn`t have her. Earlier today, her family learned that they should stop searching from the local authorities.

We want to go straight now to reporter Patty Murray from the Wisconsin Public Radio there. Hi, Patty. Thank you for joining us.

PATTY MURRAY, WPR RADIO REPORTER: Hi.

FAULKNER: Why tell the family to stop searching?

MURRAY: Because they found something. They found -- as you said in your intro, they found bone fragments, they found teeth. There had already been found an amount of blood in Ms. Halbach`s car. So some results came back from the state crime lab. The results indicated that the bone fragments and the teeth were indeed those of an adult human female.

FAULKNER: Any word yet on when we`ll know definitively whose body that is or who they belong to?

MURRAY: They have not positively ID`d the body, no.

FAULKNER: You were at the news conference today when they talked about this, and I understand this was even difficult for the authorities. I mean, they were shaken up.

MURRAY: Absolutely. Sheriff Jerry Pagel from the Calumet County`s sheriff`s department has been in this line of work, he said, for 33 years, and he said this one really shook him up. And he said that he felt entitled to feel that way, obviously. And he just said he couldn`t understand how one human being could do this to another human being.

FAULKNER: In fact, Patty, let`s take a listen from the sheriff now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JERRY PAGEL, CALUMET COUNTY, WISCONSIN: The scope of this investigation is now criminal in nature, and we are classifying it as a homicide investigation. It appears that an attempt was made to dispose of a body by an incendiary means. However, that attempt was not completely successful. Pieces of human bone and teeth were found on the Avery property, and the bone has been determined to be that of an adult female.

I have been in contact with the Halbach family and it was a difficult meeting, needless to say, that I had with the family. Can probably tell I`m little shook up today with the evidence that we have discovered, and I think I have a right to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: We`re going to go back to Patty Murray, a reporter with the Wisconsin Public Radio there. And Patty, what can you tell me about this property where these remains were found?

MURRAY: It`s a 40-acre salvage yard. It`s in a relatively rural area, just a little ways off of an interstate. Many, many junked cars, you can tell from the aerial photos we`ve been seeing on television, and a few houses that belong to the Avery family are also located on this property. Beyond that, that`s -- that pretty well describes it.

FAULKNER: Who do they consider a suspect in this case? Because I understand they took DNA samples and handprints from several members of the Avery family.

MURRAY: Yes, from Steven Avery and seven members of his family. They have not named a suspect yet. They have not officially named a suspect in the -- what they are now calling a homicide case.

FAULKNER: But they`ve been looking at Steven Avery.

MURRAY: They certainly are. Besides the bone fragments and the teeth that were found on the property, and the ignition key to Ms. Halbach`s car was found in Steven Avery`s bedroom.

FAULKNER: All right. Patty Murray, stick close to us. We are going to definitely come back to you, but we want to move on to Teresa Halbach`s family. We are joined now by her younger brother, Mike, 23-year-old Mike, who can talk with us a little bit tonight about how the family is doing.

Mike, are you there?

MIKE HALBACH, TERESA HALBACH`S BROTHER: Yes, I am. Thanks for having me.

FAULKNER: Absolutely. Mike, how are you guys doing tonight?

HALBACH: Obviously, the news we heard today was very disappointing. But it`s -- it was news that ran through -- I mean, we had kind of expected something like this might happen. It`s definitely not the outcome we wanted to happen, by any means, but -- it was definitely, you know, very bad news.

FAULKNER: What have you been told? Because definitively, they have not said whether this is your sister`s body.

HALBACH: I guess all -- everything is kind of leading towards it being her. You know, we certainly hope it`s not, but if the outcome is that, you know, she`s no longer on this earth, then we`re glad we have found, you know, perhaps what might be her, just to give us some sense of closure at this time.

FAULKNER: Tell us a little bit about your sister, Teresa. We know that she was an aspiring photographer. In fact, that`s what took her to the property that they have searched. She was going there for an assignment.

HALBACH: Yes, she was a very talented photographer. She had, you know, plans for the rest of her life. Very outgoing, had a lot of friends, a lot of friends in a lot of different social groups, and those friends have been coming out to help, you know, and offered any support they can.

FAULKNER: All right. I want to talk now about -- and I know that they haven`t named necessarily a suspect in all this, but they`ve been looking at a guy by the name of Steven Avery. And we`ve got former prosecutor Mary Fulginiti with us tonight. And I want to ask you, Mary, about your thoughts, but first let`s hear from Steven Avery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mr. Avery, did you see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn`t belong there?

AVERY: Well, Thursday night, me and my brother had to go to Menard`s (ph) to pick up some wood with the flatbed, and I seen taillights back by me. Wasn`t supposed to be. But we turned around and we went back there. Truck parked on the side. And I took the flashlight out of the flatbed, and I looked around by me and behind me, but I didn`t see nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: Mary, they`re looking at Steven Avery for a number of reasons. For one, he does have a history, a criminal history. Also, this is his property. You`ve heard the reporter there from Wisconsin saying that the key to the victim`s car found inside his room. What are your thoughts, at this point?

MARY FULGINITI, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes. It`s a little too soon to tell, but clearly, you know, the fact that her SUV was found on the property, he lives on the property, and now that we know that the key was actually found in his bedroom, that`s a pretty damaging piece of evidence because that actually links him closer to her. And I`m certain they`re probably doing fingerprint tests on that key to see if his fingerprints were on that key. And there were also blood -- apparently, blood spots that were found not only in the SUV but also around the property. So you know, certainly, the fingers are pointing in the direction of the Averys, there`s no question. But I think we have to wait until the rest of the medical reports come back to see exactly if they can tie it up a little bit tighter.

FAULKNER: Defense attorney Michelle Suskauer, what are your thoughts on this? Because so far, what we`re hearing Mary mention could be pinned on anybody. except for the key in the room. They`ve taken DNA samples from other members of the family. I mean, anybody on that property could be seen as a suspect or not, at this point. What do you think?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, sure. Anyone could be seen as a suspect in this point, but they certainly are out for Steven Avery. There is certainly a lot of bad blood there. This is somebody who was wrongfully accused, served 18 years in prison, was released because of a team of law students, and is currently suing the county where he lives. That`s why they had to bring in Calumet County in order...

FAULKNER: Right.

SUSKAUER: ... in order to head up this investigation because there`s a conflict of interest. So you know, this is someone who shouldn`t trust the police, who shouldn`t be cooperating, who should be suspect, and he has been cooperating. He even spoke to Nancy. He let...

FAULKNER: Right. He called into the show.

SUSKAUER: Sure. He let the family come and look on his property. They`re the ones who found the vehicle. And that`s...

FAULKNER: All right. And you`re talking about the $36 million lawsuit that he is putting forth against the county who had prosecuted him and then convicted him, as well -- 18 years in prison. And he was exonerated.

Let`s take a look at his rap sheet, though. I mean, this is a guy who clearly has a criminal history -- convicted of two felony burglary charges back in `81. Come forward all the way to 2004, not as egregious, convicted of disorderly conduct. But you know, you can look at cruelty to animals, cat burning in his background, attempted homicide. Exonerated. We saw that. He`s been all that time exonerated. But this is a guy who certainly did have a criminal history here.

Mary, as a former prosecutor, what do you think?

FULGINITI: When the police are conducting an investigation of individuals, I`d prefer to be the church-going, you know, crime-free individual than the convicted felon. There`s no question. They`re going to look a little bit more closely at him, especially given the fact that some of the evidence seems to be tying him to her.

But that`s not enough. I mean, the fact that he does have a prior criminal record, and frankly, the fact that he`s suing the city -- you know, I don`t -- you know, I think that`s a very -- you`ve heard this quite a bit from the Avery family, and it`s a very defensive position to take, especially when no one is really deemed a suspect and no one in that family has been charged with any criminal conduct.

Right off the bat, they`re saying this is a conspiracy. They`re finger-pointing me. They`re trying to plant evidence on me. And he`s even pointing the finger at other individuals, by certain news accounts. So that posturing is to me very defensive and very suspect.

FAULKNER: And Larry Kobilinsky, a forensic scientist, joins us now. How long do you think it will be before we`ll know who those remains belong to?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I suspect, depending upon how badly burned the skeletal remains are, they may have to resort to using mitochondrial DNA analysis, which means it could be a week, it could even been two weeks, depending upon, as I said, how many bones there are and how badly they are -- what shape they`re in.

FAULKNER: Talk to me a little bit about DNA because, you know, this is still coming onto the scene as pretty fresh. We watch a lot of television shows, and it seems like DNA is getting people exonerated here. And in fact, we read about, you know, how close in a blood line DNA can be a little confusing.

KOBILINSKY: Indeed.

FAULKNER: So you`ve got members of the family, other brothers that have given DNA, the mom. Steven Avery`s mother had to give DNA and a palm print. Why take a palm print?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you`ve mentioned a lot of things. The palm print could be important because the SUV is a very critical crime scene. Her blood was found in there, and there may be palm prints or fingerprints or other things, perhaps even blood, that could give us some more information about who was in that vehicle.

But let me point out, it`s true everybody`s familiar with DNA, but everybody`s also familiar with 9/11 and the World Trade Center, and we do know that high heat does a lot of damage to DNA. Unfortunately, many people have never been identified in the World Trade Center. So here again, we have an attempt to cover up this crime by burning the body. And apparently, it wasn`t fully successful, but it can create problems in interpretation.

FAULKNER: You might even say a good way to try to cover up a crime.

KOBILINSKY: Indeed. Criminals have learned from watching television and other programs, movies, about how to cover their steps, and burning a body is a pretty good way to get rid of the evidence.

FAULKNER: And you think in all of this, with the human remains found, they knew right away that it was a female.

KOBILINSKY: Well, that tells me that they had more than simple bone fragments. They must have had indicators, the kind of bones that would indicate female rather than male. Certainly with DNA, you can tell gender differences. But if they`ve gone that far and done DNA, then they know who the person is. So they haven`t done that. Presumably, certain bones were found that the anthropologists determined were female.

FAULKNER: OK. Thank you so much. We`ll be, of course, continuing to talk about this.

But for now, quickly, to "Trial Tracking." Police are on the lookout for an accused child molester who failed to show up for his Indiana court hearing. Robert Jeffreys (ph) was nowhere to be seen, and a warrant has been issued for his arrest. He had rejected a plea deal and was supposed to be in court to reconsider. Jeffreys is accused of molesting a 9-year- old female relative.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After the seizure of Ms. Halbach`s vehicle from the Avery property, that vehicle was transported to the Wisconsin state crime lab in Madison for analysis. And analysis began on Sunday. That analysis continued this morning, and we have received information as to at least the preliminary reports of that investigation. Those reports have included the receipt of significant evidence, which has led to further investigative efforts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: Welcome back. I`m Harris Faulkner, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. Just 25 years old, an aspiring photographer in Wisconsin, Teresa Halbach missing since Halloween night, police telling her family today, no need for them to keep searching. They think they may have found something.

We have her brother with us tonight, Mike. And Mike, has Teresa ever mentioned the Avery property or knowing any of the Averys, Steven Avery, before?

HALBACH: Not to our recollection. I mean, our family talked about it, and none of us had ever recalled her saying she had been there before or she had shown any concern about being there before, so...

FAULKNER: And as a photographer for the at "The Auto Trader" magazine, she would have gone there. Obviously, this was a salvage yard. She was on assignment. This was her third assignment for the day taking pictures. What kind of pictures does she take?

HALBACH: It would mainly just be a picture, a wide picture of the vehicle. You know, that`s just from the front to the side.

FAULKNER: And what are you being told by police, at this point, in terms of answers coming your way, timing of any of this? Are you being briefed by the hour? How are they communicating with you?

HALBACH: They`re giving us a phone call, you know, daily for sure. If we have questions of them, we`ll call them. But as far as how long everything -- everything is taking, we`re willing to wait as long as the investigation goes on. I mean, I know they`re doing everything very thoroughly, and you know, we -- we`re looking for answers, and we were hoping this evidence leads to the person or persons involved.

FAULKNER: And as they work to identify those remains, have any of your family members been asked to help authorities with that by giving DNA samples or anything?

HALBACH: Not at this time, no.

FAULKNER: All right. Mike, of course, our thoughts are with your family, and we hope you`ll stay with us now.

I want to quickly go to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshal. Bethany, I know at times like this, it`s difficult to talk about what the family members are going through because they`re kind of in that limbo stage right now, not really sure, but I would imagine some grief.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Oh, they`re going through profound grief. Not only is this a terrible loss, but they don`t know how she spent the last minute and the last hours of her life. From the time a child is born, the one thing the parents feel is that they went to keep the child safe. And to know that that safety was disrupted and ruptured and that there`s nothing that they can do and that she died in such an undignified manner, it`s a terrible, terrible thing to bear.

FAULKNER: And you know, you just heard Mike, her brother, talking now, and they`re waiting to get word. You know, for all those people, I know that they`ve been having vigils and Teresa`s search and all that. But what is something that people around them can maybe do?

MARSHALL: Well, I mean, I think what people around them can do is try to ask the family how they`re doing because it`s very tempting when you`re with a family who`s grieving to not know what to do, to feel afraid to ask questions, to feel afraid to inquire. But friends around this family need to say, How are you? Do you need a hug? Do you need to tell your story? Do you need to go out for a meal? What can I do to help?

FAULKNER: All right, Bethany, thank you. And of course, the family waiting for answers tonight, the world waiting for answers tonight about Teresa Halbach. We`ll be back in just a moment. Stay close.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAGEL: A significant amount of blood was also discovered in Teresa Halbach`s vehicle, and the samples of blood were also found on the Avery property and in buildings of the Avery property. And again, this evidence is being analyzed by the state crime lab.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mr. Avery, do you feel like you`re being framed in any way?

AVERY: Yes.

GRACE: Why?

AVERY: Because every time I turn around, the county`s always doing something to me.

GRACE: And in this case, do you think you`re being framed?

AVERY: Yes. I`m being set up because of my lawsuit and everything else.

GRACE: Because of your previous incarceration, you`re suing?

AVERY: Yes. They set me up then and...

GRACE: Well, do you think it has anything to do with her car being found at your auto shop?

AVERY: No. I think it`s because of my name and what they -- what I went through from them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: I`m Harris Faulkner, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. You were just listening to Nancy`s interview with Steven Avery, who I want to mention is not a suspect in this case. Police have been looking at the property where Teresa Halbach`s car was found, and then of course, today human remains, bones, teeth, that they`re looking into to see if they match, to see if they are, in fact, those of Teresa Halbach. But he is not a suspect.

We tried to contact his attorney. We found out that he was dropped by his attorney and has not yet been assigned anyone by the Wisconsin public defenders` office. As soon as that happens, of course, we`ll be talking with them.

I want to go back to Patty Murray, who is the reporter with Wisconsin Public Radio. And Patty, I asked you what you know about Steven Avery and his claims of wanting to exonerate himself in this, as well. I mean, he feels like he`s being targeted in all this. Why would he feel like that?

MURRAY: Well, like he said -- I have spoken to him, also, and he`s been -- he`s given numerous interviews to the area media. He`s spoken very openly about this most recent case. And in just about everything that I have -- every instance, I`ve heard him say about the same thing. He does feel he`s being set up. He was -- he spent 18 years in prison, like you said, for a sexual assault that occurred -- he went to prison in 1985 and he got out in 2003. So it was the DNA evidence that set him free from prison. And I just feel that Mr. Avery feels that police have it in for him at this time.

FAULKNER: Defense attorney Michelle Suskauer, does he have a point? Do you think he`s being set up?

SUSKAUER: I don`t know if he`s being set up, but he certainly has a point and he certainly has a reason to feel distrustful of the county and of the entire system because look what he just went through.

But I think it`s really significant that he`s speaking out, that he`s cooperating. And I don`t buy the fact that he`s not a suspect in this case. He -- they haven`t named him as a suspect, but he absolutely is a suspect in this case. He had to give DNA. His whole family gave DNA. And of course, with good reason. I mean, the car was found there. He had contact with her. But certainly, he should feel that they are out to get him because of what he`s been through.

FAULKNER: Some people would argue there`s not enough evidence against him. We`ll hear from former prosecutor Mary Fulginiti when we come back.

But in the meantime, we want to share with you we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help in our own very special way. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Susan Hendricks. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak" now.

In California, more than 100 liver transplant candidates may leave the University of California`s Irvine Medical Center. The center`s Medicare money has been cut off after more than 30 people died waiting for a new liver. The hospital says it didn`t have a surgeon, but the patients say no one told them.

And on Capitol Hill, lawmakers are moving to restrict some of the police powers of the expiring Patriot Act for the first time since the act became law in 2001. Judges would be able to reject FBI access to private phone and financial records. Access to e-mail records and favorite web sites also would be restricted.

And only in California. That`s right, this golden retriever puppy came out green. The vet says mom just hasn`t cleaned this guy off yet. But for the time being, they`re calling him Wasabi.

And that is the news for now. I`m Susan Hendricks. Back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Monday morning, federal agents, Massachusetts authorities, and Jefferson City police converged on radio station KLIK and had 1240 AM radio personality James Keown sign off the air.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he had stepped out of the sound booth about the same time the officers arrived, which was convenient.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 31-year-old Keown was charged with poisoning his wife, 31-year-old Julie Keown, last year by allegedly spiking her Gatorade and food with ethylene glycol, a chemical found in anti-freeze.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: Welcome back. I`m Harris Faulkner, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace.

Tonight, a former talk show radio host sits in jail. This is a guy who was popular with his listeners on the air in Missouri. Now he`s charged with slowly poisoning his wife for months.

James Keown appeared in court today for arraignment on murder charges. The details are pretty hard to believe. He allegedly repeatedly put a deadly chemical found in anti-freeze into his wife`s Gatorade. Julie Keown is dead, and we know she suffered.

Let`s quickly go to Jennifer Roy, who`s a reporter with the "Daily News Tribune" to find out about what happened in court today -- Jennifer?

JENNIFER ROY, REPORTER, "DAILY NEWS TRIBUNE": Hi. Yes, James Keown appeared briefly in court today. He pleaded not guilty to charges of first-degree murder. He was only in court for about two minutes, as his attorney did not fight the bail question at all.

FAULKNER: And I understand, when they arrested him, they actually got him while he was on a commercial break from his radio program?

ROY: Yes. He was arrested, like you said, during a commercial break by -- Waltham police went out there to get him with the help of police in Jefferson City.

FAULKNER: Did you see any emotion on his face today? Did he say anything in court?

ROY: He only said, "Not guilty," and he was pretty expressionless.

FAULKNER: How about listeners? Were there any in the courtroom, anybody nearby, anybody giving him some support?

ROY: Not that I saw, not that anybody knew of. We didn`t know or find his family there at all. Julie Keown`s parents were there, however.

FAULKNER: And with this case, I mean, obviously, people have talked about this on the radio since. What are people saying?

ROY: That just basically he -- they believe that he is guilty. They don`t imagine -- they can`t imagine how else she would have gotten this anti-freeze in her system, this ethylene glycol.

According to court documents that I did obtain today, he claims that she may have just been a little out of sorts, had gone jogging or walking at night and picked up a bottle, mainly, basically, off the street, and drank from it, and it had anti-freeze in it. This is his only defense, as far as I can tell.

FAULKNER: So he`s claiming that his wife picked up a bottle of anti- freeze and just drank out of it?

ROY: A bottle of -- maybe a soda can...

FAULKNER: That had something in it.

ROY: ... or a plastic bottle that somebody may have drained anti- freeze into, yes.

FAULKNER: All right. Jennifer, thank you so much.

Dr. Larry Kobilinsky is here, forensic scientist. What does this chemical do to the body, this anti-freeze? How would she have suffered?

KOBILINSKY: Well, this chemical is odorless and colorless. It`s syrupy and it actually tastes very sweet. That`s why they`re common poisonings of young children and even animals.

The fact is, is that, in and of itself, it is not a hazard. But what happens, once it`s ingested, is that the liver has certain enzymes that convert it to other breakdown products. And these things, glycolic acid and oxalates, these chemicals can wreak havoc on the body.

It lowers the body`s Ph. In other words, it makes the blood very acidic. And that can destroy organ systems. The brain becomes swollen. Lungs fail, kidneys fail. This woman needed a kidney transplant. Ultimately, it puts somebody into coma and ultimately death.

FAULKNER: And that`s what happened to her. And I know early on her symptoms were described as she was very sick of the stomach, vomiting constantly. They thought maybe she had the flu. They weren`t really sure.

KOBILINSKY: You know, Harris, that`s a very good point, because when somebody comes in suffering from this type of poisoning, most physicians will not pick it up at first. And it`s really the lower blood Ph and a whole bunch of other indications that give them the first clue that it`s not flu, that it`s actually this kind of poisoning.

FAULKNER: All right. I want to talk with former prosecutor Mary Fulginiti, if I can, Mary. Why did it take so long for them to get to the point with this case where they are looking at a suspect? Their investigation was 14 months long.

FULGINITI: Yes, I mean, there are some cases where, you know, you`ve got the murder weapon, you`ve got the fingerprints, and you`re able to point, you know, put somebody with that immediately.

And then there`s other cases like this that are predominantly circumstantial. This is a pretty long, complicated case that`s probably going to rely on a lot of medical testimony.

And even just the medical testing that needed to be done of the deceased here, in order to determine that the debilitating causes and her ultimate death were not caused by natural causes, were actually caused by this anti-freeze, took some time.

And so it`s my understanding from various news reports that they just got sort of a final result out of the medical examiner`s office...

FAULKNER: Right.

FULGINITI: ... concluding the manner and cause of death. And then to build a circumstantial case, I have to tell you, takes some time. This is not an easy case. It`s not an automatic whodunit. And they`ve had to really put together, not only the medical evidence, the motive, the opportunity. And what we have here is some lies, in order to really pin this on her husband.

FAULKNER: Michelle Suskauer, defense attorney, you heard the word "circumstantial" there. Is this one an easy one to defend?

SUSKAUER: Oh, yes. I mean, I don`t know if it`s easy, but certainly I think that the lawyer`s going to have a lot to work with here, because how could they prove that he was the one who put this in a drink or put this -- because, you know, she`s not around anymore.

And it`s a horrible, tragic case, but they don`t have her to testify. There`s no confession here. This took place over a period of time. It took a significant amount of time for them to come up with this conclusion.

And I don`t think there`s much of a motive here. There`s no prior marital problems. He has no record. There`s no domestic violence. So I think there`s some allegations that maybe financial, but I don`t think there`s really a motive here. I think they`re going to have some serious problems proving this case.

FAULKNER: Well, in fact, there have been financial allegations. Apparently there was an insurance policy of about a quarter of a million dollars.

Mary, do you agree with what Michelle is saying, in terms of this is pretty refutable, it`s circumstantial?

FULGINITI: No. No. I think, you know, look, Scott Peterson was convicted on basically a largely circumstantial case. So it`s clearly doable. There`s no question.

And that`s why the investigation sometimes take longer, because you need to build that case. You need to sometimes build a mountain out of a mole hill. But it definitely can be done.

And here, although the prosecutor has been playing it close to the vest and not really revealing how she built her case, we have caught some snippets. And it`s pretty clear the motive, which she has stated is a financial motive.

He depleted, according to her, their bank account and falsely even insinuated to her that they had excess money, because she had made some statements to family members that they were saving money every month.

And there was a $250,000, obviously, insurance policy. But on top of that, you`ve got lies. And those lies are incredibly damning here, in particular with regard to this defendant, because he -- and he`s got opportunity, because he moved her, apparently, to Waltham.

Why did he move her there? Well, he apparently, you know, told her, as well as his former employer, or his current employer, because he was supposedly telecommuting, that he was going to be going to Harvard Business School, which proved to be false.

FAULKNER: So we know he had some untruths.

I want the move on now to Bill Tackett who actually knew him pretty well. He was a regular on his radio show. And, Mr. Tackett, did he ever talk about his wife to you?

BILL TACKETT, COLE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: No. On the radio show, we discussed the cases that our office -- I`m the prosecuting attorney here locally. And once a week, we would go on and talk about the cases that we had to deal with.

And so we really didn`t get into the personal side of things very much. But we did discuss various murder cases that we have pending. But that`s the extent of it.

FAULKNER: Well, and in fact, in the state of Missouri, I understand, that you were involved in, if not the only, probably the first case that dealt with poison by anti-freeze. Did you ever talk about that with him?

TACKETT: You know, I don`t remember discussing that case. I`m on every week. This has gone on for months and months.

I mean, I could have mentioned the -- they`re called the syringe cases because the people involved took a couple syringes full of cocaine and anti-freeze and injected them into a pregnant woman.

And the idea was to kill the fetus. And you have to understand, in the state of Missouri, for criminal law purposes only, the fetus is considered a life. And so, it`s a two count...

FAULKNER: So this case had to do with anti-freeze, and this case was well-documented in Missouri.

Stay where we are. We want to talk about more.

Quickly, though, to "Trial Tracking." The Carlie Brucia kidnapping, assault and murder case. Today, in a Florida court, jurors saw photos and video of the crime scene where Carlie`s body was found. Prosecutors are in the technical phase of their case against Joseph Smith, accused of strangling 11-year-old Carlie after abducting her at a car wash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA LANHAM, CRIME SCENE TECHNICIAN: It`s part of our procedure to always take the fingerprints of the deceased.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were you able to take known fingerprints from Carlie?

LANHAM: I was unable to get one fingerprint to her due to predation that had occurred to one of her fingers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Predation? What is that?

LANHAM: Animal activity on her fingers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: So Smith could face the death penalty. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA COAKLEY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: On September 4th of `04, at 9:17 in the evening, Julie Oldag Keown was admitted to the emergency room with severe symptoms that she had exhibited before. In fact, shortly after her admission, she slipped into a coma from which she never recovered. On September 8th, she was pronounced dead at the Newton-Wellesley Hospital.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: Welcome back. I`m Harris Faulkner sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace.

Julie Keown dead. Her husband now accused of killing her in a very heinous way, poisoning her with an ingredient found in anti-freeze over a four-month period, by putting her in her Gatorade to drink.

Before we went to break, we were talking with a man who used to appear on James Keown`s radio show in Missouri. His name is Bill Tackett.

And, Bill, I just want to revisit with you. You handled a high- profile case that dealt with anti-freeze poisoning. And my question was, what do you think the chances are that, perhaps, that was well-known enough that maybe Mr. Keown knew about it?

TACKETT: Well, it was a national case and it is one that there was a lot of medical testimony that was presented. And much like this one, it, too, was a circumstantial case.

They can be made, obviously. This one was made. We didn`t have quite the defense that she was somehow walking down the street and managed to miraculously pick up an open container and drink out of it. I don`t know quite...

FAULKNER: Which is what Mr. Keown says his wife did.

TACKETT: And I`ve been doing this 17 years. That`s a toughie to sell. I`m not saying it can`t be sold. I just don`t know.

You know, people look at just the common sense end of this. Do you walk down the street, pick up an open container, and just drink it? I think that`s tough.

But, that being said, hey, you know, it`s up to the jury.

FAULKNER: Well, you knew him, you know? You`re friends with this guy? I mean, you certainly know what he`s about a little bit. You were on his show. It was "Tuesdays with Tackett," wasn`t it? So you were on every Tuesday with him.

Did you ever have occasion to talk about any of that particular case? I know you talked about a lot of different cases.

TACKETT: No, we really didn`t. And I would come on probably five minutes before the show and then I`d leave directly after that to get back to court or whenever I had to go.

But, you know, we talked extensively about the various murder cases, whatever it was that was happening, whether it was national or whether it was within my office. But other than that, I mean, he was just a talk show host. They come and go.

FAULKNER: Dr. Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, is here now. What can one learn from watching a case like that about anti-freeze? I mean, is it a good conduit, if you will? Is it difficult to find?

KOBILINSKY: It`s very, very easy to find. It`s found in virtually any fluid that`s used in heating and cooling systems to prevent boiling into the vapor or freezing into a solid.

And, of course, I said it was colorless. And it is. The companies usually add a dye, fluorescein, to alert you if there`s a leak to a radiator.

But I think, in this particular case, we`re dealing with two kinds of poisoning, chronic, which went on for about four months, and then acute. Maybe four ounces of anti-freeze will kill somebody very quickly. And that apparently is what the symptoms seem to indicate here.

FAULKNER: We`re trying to get in touch with Mr. Keown`s now attorney. He had a former attorney. And this has just kind of spun in a day. But let`s take a listen to his previous attorney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What is your client`s response to the charges?

ADAM KRETOWICZ, JAMES KEOWN`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Absolutely untrue. And I believe, as we heard this doctor say when you suggested 14 months of investigation...

GRACE: What about it?

KRETOWICZ: The day she died, there was an indication that she had this in her system. And it`s that when -- that day when they had an indication that this was in her system. It didn`t take 14 months to conclude.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this: How were they living? Who was supporting the family?

KRETOWICZ: They were supporting each other. They were both working. They had debts that normally we would all have, student loans, some credit card debts. They had more assets than debts; $250,000, if that`s the best they can come up with.

If you know nothing about the case, all of a sudden, he`s being accused, as you say only allegation, and they`re saying that he was in debt, that he tried to collect the $250, this and that. And yet...

GRACE: Yes?

KRETOWICZ: And yet, this is a case where it needs to be tried in court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: Bethany Marshall, our psychoanalyst, Bethany, what does this say when someone is killed in this way about the person who does the killing?

MARSHALL: Well, the first thing that came to my mind was Mark and Lori Hacking. Because, remember, he killed her when she found out that he was not enrolled in medical school as he had said to her. So humiliation is a strong motivator towards homicide.

And what I mean by that is sometimes the perpetrator is quite terrified of being viewed in a bad way in the other person`s eyes. Hard for you and I to imagine, but for a very disturbed personality, this could be the case.

He told her they were fine financially. She represented to her family that they were saving $1,500 a month. He told her he was enrolled in Harvard. In fact, he was in a continuing ed course that he flunked out of.

Sure, it could have been for the $250,000 life insurance policy, if the allegations are true. But when you really look into the mindset of a person who commits homicide, as deranged and strange as it might be, they`re often trying to preserve themselves in the eyes of the other. It`s better for the other person to die than for them to be humiliated.

FAULKNER: James Keown, accused of killing his wife tonight.

Real quickly, Michelle Suskauer, defense attorney, what blows this case out of the water for him? I mean, how do you just make a quick point and say, "No way, this doesn`t fly; you don`t have any evidence"?

SUSKAUER: You know, first of all, hopefully his new lawyer`s not going to use the picking up a can and drinking it on the...

FAULKNER: Yes, because that sounds a little weak.

SUSKAUER: OK. That is just the absolute worst. But what this case is going to come down to is it`s going to be a battle of the experts. It`s going to be doctor versus doctor. That`s what it`s going to come down to.

FAULKNER: All right. Thank you.

Quickly, to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Darrell Yates. Yates and his girlfriend, Amber Macentire, are both wanted in connection with the death of her 22-month-old son Harold Cheyenne Harris.

Yates is 26 years old, six feet tall, 150 pounds, blond hair and blue eyes. If you have any info, call the Texas Sheriffs Department in Nacogdoches. And that`s at 936-560-7777.

Local news next for some of you. We will be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Carlie Brucia murder trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Stay with us as we remember First Lieutenant Justin Smith, 28 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a shocking day here in Jefferson City. I`m filling in for James Keown, who was arrested on this show yesterday, charged with the murder of his wife in September 2004.

He is in Cole County Jail. We just had his mother on the phone. She indicated that he will probably be sent to Boston at some point in the coming days. She`s been told when, but didn`t want to share that with us. I don`t blame here.

Lots of phone calls lighting up, people wanting to talk about this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAULKNER: I`m Harris Faulkner -- welcome back -- sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace.

I want to finish out the show concentrating on the victim now. Let`s go back to Jennifer Roy, reporter with "Daily News Tribune." And, Jennifer, what can you tell me about how her family is doing?

ROY: They were in court today. They are in town. They did not speak to reporters. They did read a statement, very briefly, after the arraignment was over.

And they only said that, you know, they are tormented by -- basically they said they are tormented by the why of it all. They just don`t know why this happened and that they just really miss their daughter and that she was a wonderful person.

And they`re asking the media to kind of back off and to give them their space and their privacy.

FAULKNER: Dr. Kobilinsky, something that hits me, I know that Julie Keown was a registered nurse. She was working at a medical technology firm. But she had knowledge. So she would have been trying to hydrate herself, because one of the key symptoms in all of this of being poisoned by that ingredient of anti-freeze is vomiting. She so would have actually been drinking more of the substance. And that`s laced Gatorade.

KOBILINSKY: That`s absolutely right. She would have taken more and more to replenish the fluids and the minerals. She went through four months of a horrible situation, with nausea, vomiting and symptoms of gastritis. And this was not a simple, easy death.

FAULKNER: Thank you so much. I want to say thank you to all of my guests tonight.

Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry King on CNN. Again, I`m Harris Faulkner sitting in tonight for my friend, Nancy Grace.

Tomorrow night, will a former suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway be able to clear his name? We hope to see you right here tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Have a good night.

END