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Nancy Grace

An 18-year-old boy and his 14-year-old girlfriend are captured in Indiana after fleeing from Pennsylvania, where the girl`s parents were murdered by one or both of the teens.

Aired November 14, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Is she a 14-year-old kidnap victim, or is she a juvenile double killer of her own parents? Kara Beth Borden and her 18-year-old boyfriend led police on a high-speed long distance chase of cat and mouse, all the while, her own parents dead.
And can the long arm of the law reach Michael Jackson? He`s moving to Bahrain. And we are live tonight at the Carlie Brucia death penalty trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, the Florida man on trial for the kidnap, assault and murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia confronted with damning DNA evidence in court. And tonight: After beating child molestation charges, Michael Jackson`s reportedly moving to Bahrain. But why?

First tonight, breaking news, 18-year-old David Ludwig captured after reportedly gunning down his 14-year-old girlfriend`s parents in cold blood. Is 14-year-old Kara Beth Borden a kidnap victim or an accomplice to murder?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TOTARO, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LANCASTER COUNTY: The defendant, David Ludwig, has been charged with two counts of criminal homicide, one count of kidnapping, one count of recklessly endangering another person. We have every reason to believe, at this point in time, with the evidence through the course of the investigation, this was premeditated, deliberate, intentional.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to police reporter Brett Lovelace. Brett, thank you for being with us. Bring us up to date, friend.

BRETT LOVELACE, POLICE REPORTER, "LANCASTER INTELLIGENCER JOURNAL": Right now, Nancy, the authorities and Indiana State Police have both David Ludwig and the 14-year-old in custody, and there`s investigators en route here from Lancaster County to Indiana to take custody of those individuals.

GRACE: What has become of the girl, Kara Beth Borden?

LOVELACE: She is being held right now in the same state police barrack in Indiana with Mr. Ludwig. They`re separated, of course, but they are being held there, waiting for the authorities to arrive.

GRACE: Brett, what can you tell me about the kidnap and the double murder?

LOVELACE: The kidnapping and double murder -- everything started to unfold yesterday 8:00 AM inside the home in Warwick township. Mr. Ludwig was summoned (ph) there. He`d been out all night with -- with the -- Kara Borden. He dropped her off. They returned at 8:00 AM, and there was a confrontation. He shot both of Kara`s parents. Then they fled out of the property in a Volkswagen, and it took about two hours before police cleared the house and determined they were gone. And then at the point was when this massive manhunt had unfolded.

GRACE: So Brett, explain to me. Did the father -- was he angry because he had kept the 14-year-old girl out all night?

LOVELACE: Yes. There were questions about why they had been out all night. There was some tension among the family. They felt like he was too old to be dating a 14-year-old. He is 18. She was 14. They just were uncomfortable with the relationship, and there had been ongoing problems.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. DAVE BURSTIN, INDIANA STATE POLICE SPOKESMAN: Prior to that Amber Alert being put out sometime before noon this afternoon, Troopers Cox (ph) and Furnace (ph) observed the suspect vehicle on I-70 westbound just west of Indianapolis. And they attempted to stop the vehicle, and there was a pursuit after that time. The pursuit ended in the area of state road 39 and U.S. 40. Mr. Ludwig was taken into custody, and Kara Borden was also recovered unharmed.

Because she is a 14-year-old, as you`re aware, there has to be a responsible adult in Indiana for us to do any questioning with her. She has not been questioned. And ultimately, she will be going back to Pennsylvania, and whatever the processes they have, they will follow there. I can tell you that she suffered no physical harm and that she is alive and well at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to go straight out to Sergeant Ray Poole, the PIO with the Indiana State Police. When and how were the two spotted in the Indianapolis area?

SGT. RAY POOLE, INDIANA STATE POLICE: Believe it or not (INAUDIBLE) truck drivers (INAUDIBLE) on one of the local radio stations here in Indianapolis put out an Amber Alert and basically said that the vehicle was spotted in the Indianapolis area, and just where Bellevue (ph) is, which is, like, 30 miles west of Indianapolis. And there was an off-duty trooper at that location (INAUDIBLE) state road 39 and I-70, and (INAUDIBLE) happened to locate that same vehicle, which Trooper Cox, who was mentioned in the interview (INAUDIBLE) the information (INAUDIBLE) put out in dispatch, Trooper Cox saw the car pass right by him going in the opposite direction on westbound 70. And that`s when he pursued (INAUDIBLE) notified one of his other colleagues, Trooper Furnace, and they gave chase to the suspect vehicle.

GRACE: Sergeant Poole, explain to me your knowledge of what these two were like when they were apprehended.

POOLE: Well, I was at the scene and not -- probably 10 minutes after or so, and the young man, he was just like any typical 18-year-old kid, I mean, unenthused (ph). And of course, he knew he was in trouble because he just fled the police. But the young girl struck me as any typical 14-year- old girl you would pass in the hallway of a school, you know? She was upset. She was scared. She was shaking. And what struck me is she was like a typical kid. She had braces on her teeth. So it wasn`t like she was, to my appearance (ph), didn`t look like she was a battered child or an unhappy child. It just looked like she was a typical kid that got herself into some trouble (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Got herself into some trouble? Her parents are shot dead back at the homestead~! Was she crying? Was she screaming? Was she hysterical? Did she run from the car?

POOLE: No. She basically walked back to the back of the car when our officers pursued and got the vehicle stopped. And she obviously was upset. She was crying, but she was not hysterical (INAUDIBLE) go to say, but she was upset.

GRACE: Elizabeth (ph), leave that map up for one moment. Sergeant Poole, how in the heck did these two manage to make it from near Philadelphia all the way to Indianapolis? There was an Amber Alert out for the car.

POOLE: There was an Amber Alert out. They come into the state of Indiana near the Fort Wayne area, which is northeast of Indianapolis, and about an hour or so, hour-and-a-half north of Indianapolis. And we had gotten reports that they were at a particular truck stop in the Fort Wayne area, and we sent officers to that spot. And by the time we arrived, they were gone. So we did put out a dispatch notifying other police agencies and other state police agencies that we -- may possibly have a lead on the suspect vehicle.

GRACE: Thank God for Amber Alert, right?

POOLE: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Thank God for Amber Alert.

POOLE: You know what? The Amber Alert system did work. It was a nationwide system. And I remember seeing it last night, sometime yesterday evening, before I went to bed. And you know, you never -- you always listen -- being a police officer, you kind of listen to those things, but you never know -- it`s like -- almost like a needle in a haystack. And for our troopers and for people to really pay attention to those Amber Alerts is a credit to everyone because those Amber Alerts are just extra eyes and ears for us law enforcement people.

GRACE: Back to police reporter Brett Lovelace. Brett, I`ve got reports tonight that these two actually stopped along the way at a Subway sandwich shop for a little Italian special. True, false?

LOVELACE: That`s true. They stopped at a Subway station, and they also stopped at an ATM in western Pennsylvania, on the way to Indiana. And that is the source of where the erroneous report for the Amber Alert was made. An attendant there in the restaurant had thought they saw these individuals in the restaurant. The Amber Alert was updated. Within a matter of 20 minutes later, they were captured in Indiana. So clearly, that report was wrong.

GRACE: Lauren Lake, if that report is correct, your girl`s in a heap of trouble~~! She was not upset when police pulled the car over. They had been playing chicken at about 90 miles an hour with oncoming vehicles. If those two stopped and got something to eat, tanked up, stopped at an ATM -- plenty of time for her to escape. This is making her look more and more like an accomplice.

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, maybe. I mean, you know, on the one hand, it makes her look like the accomplice. On the other hand, you never know. If he`s got a gun in the car and she`s seen it or knows that he killed her parents -- I mean, you know, I might be going with him, too, had he killed my parents almost in front of my face. So we don`t know what the circumstances are yet. They haven`t questioned her yet. No, I don`t like the fact that they got a sandwich and a little money on the way, but at the same time, you got to eat.

GRACE: Well, you know, that`s arguable, Lauren, whether you have to eat after a double killing of your parents or not. We`re going to have to go to the shrink on that.

Very quickly to Chief Richard Garipoli with the Warwick Township Police Department. Welcome, Chief. A special guest with us tonight.

CHIEF RICHARD GARIPOLI, WARWICK TOWNSHIP, PA, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Good evening, Nancy.

GRACE: What charges are pending against Ludwig.

GARIPOLI: We have homicide charges, two counts going against him right now. We have the kidnapping charge, and we have the using the weapons. So at this point in time, that`s where we`re going to be standing.

GRACE: What kind of weapon was used, Chief?

GARIPOLI: We`re not sure yet. We believe it was a handgun in the home.

GRACE: Chief Garipoli, question. I understand the girl`s father was shot in the back of the head. That`s already been released. Is that true?

GARIPOLI: Nancy, that is not true. I do not have that information. And I -- my detectives are not coming forward with that right now, and that`s something I do not have information. I can just tell you that he was shot.

GRACE: You know, Chief, the reason I ask -- not that it really matters, the father is dead by gunshot wound -- is that that would totally defeat any self-defense claim this young man would come up with. What were the conditions of the mother`s shooting?

GARIPOLI: What was the conditions of the mother?

GRACE: Yes. Where was the mom when she was shot?

GARIPOLI: Well, they said to me, my investigators and the forensics team, that they found her in one of the rooms, sitting in a chair with a blanket on her legs, so...

GRACE: Oh!

GARIPOLI: ... that`s where we are there.

GRACE: Where did Ludwig, this 18-year-old young man, get these guns?

GARIPOLI: Well, we`re being told that the family is a collector of guns. They have many guns in their home.

GRACE: Who called 911, Chief?

GARIPOLI: The children, when they ran out of the home, the neighbors -- you know, you got to understand this is a very tight-knit community. So when the neighbors hear somebody yelling, call the police, they do the right thing. And that`s where the 911 came in.

GRACE: Hey Chief, have either of these two young people been in trouble with the law before?

GARIPOLI: Well, from our understanding, no, they have not.

GRACE: You know, this is incredible to me. Elizabeth, can you put up their blog, their Web log? Both of them apparently kept a Web log about themselves.

I want to go straight out to Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Dr. Saunders, neither of these two ever in trouble before. And if you go on line, you can see this guy`s Web log -- David Ludwig, 18 years old. There she is, Kara Beth Borden, 14 years old. Apparently, Doctor, they had been out all night long, got in early that morning. The father gave them pure hell for staying out all night long. And apparently, this young man comes back in the home with a firearm, allegedly, that he got from home. Neither of them having been in trouble before. Dr. Saunders, what do you make of it?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this might be a Romeo and Juliet horror story where everything went wrong. Look, these two kids were both home schooled.

GRACE: Wait! Correct me. Maybe I`m crazy, but didn`t they kill themselves?

SAUNDERS: Well, that`s right. It`s -- everything went wrong, and it`s just a nightmare. I think...

GRACE: Hey, check out this 18-year-old holding, I guess, a sword, on line. What`s that all about? Forget that. Go back to the murders.

SAUNDERS: That`s pretty creepy. He made a mention in his blog that he had expertise about getting in trouble. Whatever that means, this might be a boy who flirted with the dark side...

GRACE: Excuse me!

SAUNDERS: ... in a lot of ways.

GRACE: He is not a boy. At 18 years old, my father was on a Navy battleship halfway across the world, OK? Eighteen years old is old enough for the death penalty, according to U.S. Supreme Court, and there is a death penalty in Pennsylvania. Now, what were you saying?

SAUNDERS: You`re right. This man was infatuated with this little girl, who, by her family`s report, was boy crazy. The parents had allegedly stopped another relationship that she had with a young man. And both families disapproved of this relationship. She snuck out to be with him.

GRACE: Now, these two met at some home schooling event, apparently, both of them being home schooled.

SAUNDERS: Right. And even though kids who are home schooled do go out and have other relationships, they`re really isolated from their peers, so relationships can take on an unusual intensity, kind of these hothouse relationships. And I think these two kids -- excuse me, the girl and this young man were infatuated and impulsive, living in the moment, and had just about the worst judgment in the world.

Her behavior does not indicate that she was taken against her will. She was with him for 26 hours. She could have asked for help. She could have screamed. She could have called the police.

GRACE: To CNN correspondent standing by in Lititz, Pennsylvania, Mary Snow is with us. Mary, it`s my understanding that the 14-year-old, Kara Beth Borden, is not being questioned because they don`t have a guardian. Well, they don`t have a guardian because they`re dead!

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right, Nancy. The police also pointed out that she has two older siblings. When she is brought back here to Pennsylvania, the police indicated, you know, they would be with the 14- year-old girl. Her status now, as you mentioned, is really a question mark. Will she be charged? Police said they`re investigating that.

GRACE: Mary Snow, you know, this cat-and-mouse game they led police on lasted for hours and hours and hours. There are reports they stopped along the way. I really don`t think they could drive for that many hours without gassing up somewhere. But how is she being perceived in the area right now, as a victim or as an accomplice?

SNOW: I think one of the most immediate reactions is relief that the girl is unharmed, and just pure shock, as you can imagine. One thing, though, that will be able to perhaps piece together this history is via the Internet. You mentioned these blogs. And police did say that they took away from each one of the homes their computers. So obviously, that`s going to be looked at very carefully.

I talked to one neighbor who said he was familiar with both of them. I talked to a school administrator who said, you know, there were no reports of major problems with either one of them. So we`re trying to piece together a history. There was no police record on either one of them or problems reported because even though they were home schooled, they had to file a report each year with the district.

In terms of friends, I mean, one of the obvious things that people were concerned about was the age difference, the fact that he is 18 and that she is 14. So this obviously raised eyebrows.

GRACE: I don`t know what they were doing out all night long, anyway. She 14, he is 18. And speaking of their computers, Mary, I learned today that he writes all about his personal life on his blog, including the fact that he had wheedled one laptop computer out of his parents and then within a couple of months, decided he didn`t like that one and then wheedled a second laptop out of his parents. And on the blog, he talks about how hard he had to work, begging his parents. This is a 18-year-old young man wheedling two laptops within a couple of weeks.

I want to find out about their backgrounds.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Today 21-year-old Angela Disabella, accused of suffocating her 5-month-old baby with chili powder, is now convicted of manslaughter. Disabella says she was using chili powder as a thumb-sucking remedy at just 5 months. But the powder was all over baby Kyra`s (ph) throat and all over the rest of her body.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIAS TORRIS, FRIEND OF ANGELA DISABELLA: Life was really harsh, to put her away for life. But (INAUDIBLE) seven years, and now maybe she can get on and maybe start a family and start all over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARIPOLI: I have spoken to the victims` relatives and the adult sons. One is 25 years old. The other one is 21 years old. And they`re holding together. They`re with family. They`re with friends. And this community has pulled together as a very tight-knit group, and we`re getting through it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. An 18-year-old young man and his 14-year-old girlfriend found after a long game of cat and mouse. Over 26 hours, they led police on a high-speed chase, finally apprehended. At the home of the 14-year-old girl, both her parents shot dead.

Straight out to Chief Richard Garipoli, Warwick Township Police Department. Chief, explain to me how the two siblings managed to remain unscathed.

GARIPOLI: Well, they were just lucky. They escaped out of the home. And they did what they do best. They ran and they yelled and they asked for help from their neighbors. The neighbors came forward immediately, grabbed up the kids and called 911, and that`s when we came in.

GRACE: How old were the siblings?

GARIPOLI: I`m getting 15 years old and 9 years old.

GRACE: I understand the sister, the 15-year-old, witnessed her father being shot, ran into a bathroom and hid in a bathroom and could actually hear Ludwig going through the house, calling for the 14-year-old girlfriend to come with him. Then she heard another gunshot.

GARIPOLI: OK. You`re hearing a little bit more than I`m hearing. My detectives are telling me that one of the children were in the home when it was going down. I`m not sure which one it is, at this point in time. However, one of them is saying exactly what you`re saying, yes.

GRACE: Let`s go to Mary Snow, CNN correspondent. What can you tell us about how the others remained unscathed?

SNOW: Well, that is a big question, Nancy. As the chief had just mentioned, one of the girls, the older sister, was able to run out of the home. She was able to hide and then run out, and the younger boy was able to run out, as well. Of course, that`s -- there`s so many questions in this case. And also, you know, one of the big questions, how much time passed between the time the teens came to the house and the shots were fired? And what happened -- how long was that (INAUDIBLE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOTARO: We will review the situation. We will determine whether any aggravating circumstances are present that would potentially justify capital punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF WILLIAM SEACE, LITITZ POLICE DEPARTMENT: He does have a white female 14 years of age in the vehicle with him, probably as a hostage. And he is armed and considered dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. A 14-year-old and her 18-year-old boyfriend on the run for over a day, police apprehending them hundreds of miles away from the beginning, where her two parents lay dead. Tonight, we think it was all over an argument regarding her curfew.

I want to go straight back out to Chief Richard Garipoli with Warwick Township. Sir, neither of these young people have been in trouble before. Was there ever a call to the home? Do we really believe the motive was over a curfew?

GARIPOLI: Well, that`s what we`re getting, Nancy, at this point in time. The father must have been displeased at the fact that the 14-year- old was out until early morning hours...

GRACE: Yes, I guess so!

GARIPOLI: You`re darn right. And I guess he wasn`t exactly pleased that she was seeing a 18-year-old boy.

GRACE: Well, is it true, Chief, that this guy had a duffel bag with guns in it?

GARIPOLI: No, that is not true. The evidence...

GRACE: I am so glad you told me that...

GARIPOLI: Well, Nancy...

GARIPOLI: ... because I could not believe the parents wouldn`t have noticed all those guns missing!~

GARIPOLI: No, there was one found there at the scene, outside in a bag, so -- there was another one that he did bring to the scene with him.

GRACE: Now, what was found outside in a bag?

GARIPOLI: We believe it was a handgun.

GRACE: Wait. So he had one gun in a hand -- in a bag, and he had another gun on his person?

GARIPOLI: That`s -- that`s probably correct, Nancy.

GRACE: Everyone, we`re going to go straight back out to the scene. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi, and here`s your HEADLINE PRIME newsbreak.

Well, just a short time ago, President Bush left Anchorage, Alaska, for an eight-day trip across Asia. The trip comes as Americans` views of the president and his trustworthiness hit all-time lows according to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, it also shows his approval rating dropping to 37 percent.

Well, it`s a bad start to happily ever after in Georgia, just days after marrying a 15-year-old boy, police have arrested his 37-year-old pregnant bride on child molestation charges. The couple points to another Georgia law that exempts the marriage age requirement if a baby is involved.

Indiana University researchers say Americans are more generous than ever when it comes to doling out charity. In the 11 weeks after Hurricane Katrina, the nation nearly eclipsed the $2.8 billion given in the two years following the September 11th attacks.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. DAVE BURSTIN, INDIANA STATE POLICE SPOKESMAN: This is still a very fluid investigation. We just know that suspect was wanted in connection for a murder, a warrant had been issued for his arrest. They were fleeing the area. And why someone goes to a particular state or what their hopeful (ph) destination was, we don`t know. I can tell you that he has cooperated in the investigation that we have had here thus far, but we are not able to discuss any of the specifics with -- that we have had with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, what about her, the 14-year-old girl? Both her parents now dead. Her 18-year-old boyfriend gunned both of them down. That`s a shot of Kara Beth Borden, age 14. Both of these young people home- schooled, met at a home-schooling event.

Straight to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. How do you determine the level of involvement of the girl, Kara?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Nancy, I think they are going to go back in the past and see what she`s been saying on these blogs, what she`s been saying on her e-mails, what she`s been saying to her friends. Has she been expressing a hatred of her parents, saying things like, God, I wish they would go -- I wish they were dead? I hope -- maybe my boyfriend will kill them. I mean, is she saying stuff like this? Is that what`s been going on? Will her brothers and sisters say that she was in the house and unconcerned about what was going on with her parents and that she willingly left with the boyfriend? That`s what we`re going to see.

GRACE: Well, Pat, interesting you mention the blog. We looked on the blog. This is some of what Kara Beth Borden, age 14-year-old -- age 14, wrote, she says: interests, Jesus, church, my youth group, other youth groups, family, friends, my doggy, kids, babysitting, having parties, going to parties, new friends, music, candy, push pop candy, shopping, hugging.

You know what? I would never have thought that this girl would be on the run with an 18-year-old alleged killer. So, I know they`re going to take a look back at her involvement, look at her blog. But what causes a teen to kill?

BROWN: Well, I`m with you, Nancy. I`m really appalled when somebody says this is a Romeo who has used some bad judgment. This is a -- not that. This is a cold-blooded psychopath that has brutally murdered two people. And anyone who cooperates with him and wants that to happen is pretty much brutally -- a cold-blooded, brutal person themselves. So there`s no way to be nice about it if this is exactly what happened. This young man.

GRACE: Well, let me -- Pat, let`s get real. Think of your own parents, God forbid, being gunned down and then you hit the road with the dude for 26 hours? Check out the Subway sandwich or the Amoco gas station? Forget it.

BROWN: Unless there was something -- unless, Nancy, there is something going on that we don`t know where she really was under his control. Unless that were true, I agree with you. I mean, there are things that I remember being mad at my parents when I was a teenager, I stomped off to my room. My bad judgment was maybe sticking my tongue out or my bad judgment was whining.

But there`s no such thing as bad judgment where I decided, I`m going to kill my parents, take my sister`s parents away from them, destroy two lives. I mean, this is crazy. When you do that kind of thing, you are not a very nice person. So the question is.

GRACE: Very nice. I call it a felon.

BROWN: Absolutely.

GRACE: I call it a felon. Hey, and Pat Brown, what about the manner of death? How is that significant?

BROWN: Well, I look at this as a very premeditated homicide, pair of homicides. This boy brought the guns with him. He was planning to kill. When he goes in there and has this discussion with him, he knows it`s not going to go well. His point there isn`t to make -- you know, to have a conversation with these people and convince them of anything. His point is to go there and get his rage out, to take these people out, to say, ha ha, you can`t tell me I can`t see your daughter. I`m going to do you in. It`s like a school shooting. He knew he was going to.

GRACE: And the mother sitting there.

BROWN: Yes, exactly.

GRACE: . in a chair with a blanket -- a blanky over her legs.

BROWN: It was fun for him. He enjoyed doing it. That`s the whole point.

GRACE: And very quickly, to Mary Snow, CNN correspondent who is there at Lititz, Pennsylvania. Mary, when do they head back?

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, detectives reached Indiana this evening and it`s assumed that they`re coming back tomorrow. Exact timetable, we still don`t know, but it`s anticipated they will be back here tomorrow.

GRACE: OK. Thanks to everyone, especially Mary Snow, our police officers, our reporters, and Pat, our criminal profiler.

We are switching gears. Everybody, bad news. Sad news. Michael Jackson, king of pop, is leaving the country.

(PRETENDS TO CRY)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I love the community of Santa Maria very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Jackson hasn`t sold Neverland.

JACKSON: My home is in this community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael lives here.

JACKSON: I love my community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He loves here. His family is here.

JACKSON: I will always love this community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His children are growing up here.

JACKSON: From the bottom of my heart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He will be remaining at Neverland and he is not moving to Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Ruh roh. Everybody was wrong. He loves his community, all right, but his new community is the Amwaj Island in Bahrain. Let me go straight out to Ted Casablanca, reporter with E!.

Bring me up to date, friend.

TED CASABLANCA, E! REPORTER: Hey, Nancy, you`re not being ironic with Michael, are you? You sound like you`re really upset to see him leave the country. Actually, if I were him, I would leave the country, too, because I`m hearing more and more out here that there will be another case, another trial. And it`s not looking good for this guy.

GRACE: What? What? What? What? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What kind of trial?

CASABLANCA: Did that get your attention, Nancy?

GRACE: Yes. You got me. What kind of trial?

CASABLANCA: I`m hearing that there`s another kid, at least one, if not more, who`s planning on coming forth. I think there are a number of kids who will be able to come forth eventually. Because it has never really been answered. You know, justice never really been seen in this country in regards to Michael Jackson. So no wonder he`s thinking about posh places off in Bahrain. I`d be going there, too, I think, if I were him.

GRACE: Sir, correction.

CASABLANCA: And also.

GRACE: Correction, I think it`s Bahrain.

CASABLANCA: OK. I`m so sorry. I bow to you, Ms. Grace.

GRACE: OK. Thank you, Ted. I`m glad you can accept that little criticism. We`ll be back with Ted Casablanca, reporter with E!.

Harvey Levin, why Bahrain?

HARVEY LEVIN, MANAGING EDITOR, TMZ.COM: Sounds like a nice place to me. I mean, you know, what`s really interesting, Nancy, is, you know, he apparently has ties to the royal family. Right after he was acquitted he actually was invited over there by the royal family, spent some time there. But this is a really posh, posh area. As a matter of fact, the report is that he is spending $1.5 million for a quarter of an acre. So, you can kind of imagine Michael Jackson living on a quarter of an acre is like us living in a bathroom. But, you know, it`s a very posh area, it has golf courses, it has stylized street signs and lamps. I mean, it`s a really upscale, filthy rich community.

GRACE: Did you say stylized street lamps?

LEVIN: I did. It was actually.

GRACE: You know what, you have got to have that. You have got to you`re your stylized street lamps. Anything else, it just won`t do. It won`t do.

Now, let me go to Brian Oxman, he is the Jackson family attorney. I guess you`re neither going to deny nor confirm the purchase of not one, but two luxury mansions in Bahrain?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Nancy, there`s been no indication at all from anywhere in Los Angeles or this side of the continent that Michael has made any expenditure to buy anything in Bahrain. I spoke to his mom who had talked to him over the weekend. And she said nothing about it. I`ve spoken to his family members, there`s been no indication. Michael is very unpredictable. He does what he wants, but no one has heard any kind of information who is a family member on this.

GRACE: Now, if his children go along with him, Brian Oxman, will they have to wear -- I mean, there you go. It is beautiful, but the culture in Bahrain, will the girl have to wear a veil? Where will they go to school? Oh, never mind. They`re already wearing veils. Never mind. Forget about that, Brian. Do you think he`ll ever perform again and is it true that he is cutting a CD with his children?

OXMAN: There have been discussions about his children performing on a CD with him. The entire family is extraordinarily talented. And the Jackson children have always wanted to perform with Michael. And his children are no exception. And if they have that opportunity, I know that they just can`t wait to do it.

GRACE: Let me go out to attorney Rahul Manchanda. Thank you for being with us, Rahul. Tell me about the extradition treaty between the U.S. Bahrain. In other words, if another case does pop up, if there is another little boy lurking out there somewhere, can we extradite Jackson back?

RAHUL MANCHANDA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. Well, there actually is no extradition treaty between the U.S. and Bahrain.

GRACE: Oh, good to know.

MANCHANDA: Right. The reality is that if something does come up in the United States, it would be very difficult to bring him back to the United States. And the reason for that is that Bahrain really has a very liberal policy when it comes to extradition. So we couldn`t even bring him back if we wanted to.

GRACE: And another issue, I`m trying to understand the culture in Bahrain. What is their tolerance for child molestation?

MANCHANDA: Well, you know, it`s a very good question. The reality is on the books in the statutes. There is a very strict policy. It`s based on Sharia law, which is Islamic law, and that states that these kinds of crimes are punishable by imprisonment, death, and what have you, probably even more strict than the U.S. and Europe.

But the reality is that Bahrain is also seen as sort of a getaway, a getaway`s paradise for people from Saudi Arabia, for example, or countries dominated by the Wahabism or Sharia law. And it`s seen as sort of a resort-type place in the Middle East that a lot of people venture to, to sort of escape the confines of the Middle East, which is -- you know, they frown on alcohol, they frown on other sorts of activities. So Bahrain is sort of seen as a very liberal, you know, hot spot in the Middle East, if you will.

GRACE: To Ted Casablanca with E!. Ted, did he -- is he telling Neverland?

CASABLANCA: spoke to his people. And they said he is not. And they also told me that he is not close to bankruptcy, unlike what I have heard. I was told that he`s restructuring, which sounds kind of fancy to me.

GRACE: Oh, like Delta.

CASABLANCA: Yes.

GRACE: OK.

CASABLANCA: Yes.

GRACE: Harvey Levin, what about it? Any word on Neverland?

LEVIN: No...

GRACE: I mean, could we possibly be the proud owners of Neverland?

LEVIN: The animals are included, Nancy. But I know you have wanted a zebra. You know, as far as I know, it`s not in the market right now. You know, I talked to his publicist today and asked a little about this, and she said, you know, I didn`t really ask him about an island, and he`s sleeping right now, so I`ll get back to you. But so far, we haven`t heard definitively.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": Well, they`re now saying that after the trial, Michael Jackson may leave the country if he is acquitted. Michael says he doesn`t feel at home here anymore. He says he wants to sell the Neverland ranch and move somewhere where he can be more comfortable. Hey, let me tell you something, if you`re so weird you don`t fit in in Southern California, there`s nowhere else on Earth you can go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, Leno predicted it months ago and now we learn that Michael Jackson may have purchased not one but two mansions in Bahrain. That is from "The Tonight Show." Very quickly, straight back out to you, Harvey Levin. Harvey, has anybody been able to confirm this purchase? Is it of one or two mansions? And if it is of two, is it beach front?

LEVIN: It is beach front. That`s -- it is beach front.

GRACE: And is he going to combine them?

LEVIN: Good question. Usually he has separate houses. He`s known for having multiple houses at least in Neverland. So they are two detached structures. At least that`s the way the report goes. In terms of confirming it, Nancy, again, I talked to his publicist and, you know, it`s kind of like, you know, I didn`t ask him whether he bought an island or not. And I said, could you call him and get back to me? And she called me back around 1:00 Pacific Time, and she said, well, look, it`s night -- it`s eight hours difference, so Michael`s asleep right now so I couldn`t ask, which made me wonder, Michael Jackson goes to bed by 9:00 at night? And she said, well, you know, he`s still kind of tired from the trial. So he was sleeping and they will get back to me when there`s a definitive answer on whether or he bought the island.

GRACE: Yes. I`m still tired after the trial, too.

Very quickly, to Ted Casablanca, reporter with E! Where is he.

CASABLANCA: Yes, Michael has got those kiddy bedtime hours, don`t you think, Nancy?

GRACE: Where`s he getting all the money? That`s what I want to know.

CASABLANCA: Well, I mean, we have established it is not up to his usual mansion requirements. It is just, you know, a $1.5 million job. It is nothing like what he`s used to. So I think he is scaling down if you can believe it. But I just think we have got to get back to the question of did he molest these kids or not? It`s -- you know, it`s the question that needs.

GRACE: Well, I think a jury answered that. But that certainly doesn`t preclude other accusers from popping up. You are right about that, Ted.

And Brian Oxman, final thought?

OXMAN: I think that with the Harry Potter movie coming out, a new installment there, and "The Chronicles of Narnia" coming out, a new installment there, the world is waiting with bated breath as to what the next stage of Michael Jackson`s life is going to be in the never ending story of Michael Jackson.

GRACE: And so are victims` rights advocates all around the world. Brian Oxman, you are a very brave man. Thank you for coming on the show tonight.

Very quickly to a serious note, we have been following the case of Carlie Brucia, the 11-year-old little girl. Elizabeth, could you run that video please of her walking across the car wash parking lot in her little red T -shirt. Let`s go straight out to the assistant program director at 1450 WSRQ, Ryan Rafferdy.

Ryan, what happened in court today?

RYAN RAFFERDY, ASSISTANT PROGRAM DIRECTOR, 1450 WSRG: Hi, Nancy. Basically the big witness today for the prosecution was a guy named Russell Vega (ph), he happens to be the medical examiner for Sarasota County. Basically he testified that Carlie was raped and her cause of death was strangulation.

GRACE: It`s my understanding today, Ryan, that this little T-shirt -- and Elizabeth, I think we have video of this, this little red T-shirt that we see her wearing right there was held up in front of the jury. And in front of the jury, the FBI analyst testified that the defendant`s -- thank you, Elizabeth, that the defendant`s sperm, one in 100 billion, was on her T-shirt. Did you hear that?

RAFFERDY: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Well, my question to you, Ryan, I think that`s very compelling evidence.

RAFFERDY: Yes. That would be videotaped. And the defense has yet to present their case. So it`s interesting to see what they`re going to have up their sleeve. And mind you that the prosecution has yet to wrap up their case.

GRACE: And to Rahul. Rahul, in this case, the defense has a leg to stand on because the crime lab -- somebody at the crime lab had falsified some findings. So they had to go back through and redo all the DNA on the Carlie Brucia case. Now the defense is going to have a field day with that.

MANCHANDA: A flub on the defense side. And I think that what you`re going to see here is an exploitation of that fact to the fullest extent.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER LUTTMAN, FBI EXAMINER: The probability of selecting an unrelated individual at random that would have the same DNA profiles as found on the evidence, in that stain, is approximately 1 in 92 quintillion in the black population. Quintillion is a 1 followed by 18 zeroes. And then for the Caucasian, it`s approximately 1 in 32 quintillion. For Southeastern Hispanic, it`s approximately 1 in 45 quintillion. In case, it meets the physical threshold and I`m able to say that Joseph Smith is the source of the male DNA to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Lauren Lake, DNA, have you ever even heard of quintillion before? The defense might as well pack up and go home.

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they`re trying to get us on the ropes, Nancy, I know. But you know what, a faulty FBI lab that falsified results, hello! That`s not good for the prosecution.

GRACE: Well, you know what, you put it beautifully and succinctly.

Quick break. Quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Candice Rose Martinez. Police say she has been IDed as the so-called "cell phone bandit," reportedly robbing Northern Virginia banks while talking on a cell phone. To who? Martinez, 19, considered armed and dangerous. If you have info, call the Loudon County sheriff, 703-777-1021.

Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Carlie Brucia death penalty trial, 3 to 5 Eastern, COURT TV.

Please stay with us as we remember Lance Corporal Scott Zubowski, just 20 years old, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. In all fairness, I want to report and reiterate that the 18-year-old suspect in the double homicide we`ve been covering tonight is just that, a suspect. He has not been convicted yet. That would only happen after a jury trial.

And also, as to Michael Jackson, remember, there are no additional allegations of other molestation victims that we know of tonight.

Back to the Carlie Brucia trial, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM TEBRUGGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Your honor, Ms. Luttman did not do the work that she is here to testify about. There`s no way that I can possibly cross-examine her effectively. Under the confrontation clause, as considered by the recent United States Supreme Court case of Crawford versus Washington, it would be my position that the persons who actually did the work in the case are those that would be required to testify, and to establish the necessary foundation and predicate before Ms. Luttman could testify.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders. There`s been a lot of DNA evidence, very complicated. But when they held up that little red T-shirt, the whole courtroom went silent.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it`s devastating evidence for the fact that this man brutally raped and murdered this child and it impacted on the jury.

GRACE: Ryan Rafferdy with WSRQ, what happens tomorrow?

RAFFERDY: Tomorrow is day five of testimony, starts right at 9:00. What`s interesting is there`s no word yet from Adam Tebrugge, who we just heard from there, the defense attorney for Joseph Smith, no word on Smith is going to take the stand in his own defense. Legal analysts that I`ve spoken with say that basically that would be bad on their part.

GRACE: It would be legal suicide, Ryan. I agree with you. Thank you, Ryan.

I want to thank all of my guests though, all of my guests tonight. But our biggest thank you tonight and every night is for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes. I missed you last week and thank you for tuning in tonight.

Tomorrow, more charges we expect in the case of Teresa Halbach the Wisconsin photog who went missing on assignment.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END