Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Pop superstar Michael Jackson mistakenly enters a ladies` restroom in a shopping mall in Dubai.
Aired November 16, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, world music icon Michael Jackson under intense scrutiny, after beating the rap on felony child molestation charges, reportedly finds himself in another hostile environment, the ladies` bathroom of a crowded shopping mall.
And we go live to a California courthouse, where the young man facing trial in the bludgeoning death of Pam Vitale, wife of California defense attorney Daniel Horowitz, refuses to appear at a court hearing today.
And tonight, to Florida for the latest in the death penalty trial of the man accused of the kidnap, assault and murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia -- stunning courtroom move.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, to a Florida courtroom and the death penalty trial of Joseph Smith, on trial for the kidnap, assault and murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia. Bombshell courtroom move -- even his own defense lawyer was speechless come closing arguments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, opposing counsel, members of the jury, we waive closing argument.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, breaking news in the murder case of Pam Vitale, wife of California lawyer, Daniel Horowitz. The murder defendant a no-show in court today, and the judge demands silence.
But first tonight, news out of the tiny Muslim state of Bahrain. Just as we in the U.S. became accustomed to Michael Jackson`s bizarre behavior, Bahrain, it`s your turn now! Investigative reporter and new author Diane Dimond reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON: I love the community of Santa Maria very much.
RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESWOMAN: Michael Jackson hasn`t sold Neverland.
JACKSON: My home is in this community.
BAIN: Michael lives here.
JACKSON: I love my community.
BAIN: He loves it here. His family is here.
JACKSON: I`ll always love this community...
BAIN: His children are growing up here.
JACKSON: ... from the bottom of my heart.
BAIN: He will be remaining at Neverland, and he is not moving to Europe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Home sweet home for Michael Jackson. Oh, I`m sorry! Michael Jackson left this. It`s left over from the trial. Maybe they have a copy of this there in Bahrain. What they don`t have is an extradition treaty between Bahrain and the United States.
Here in the studio me, a face you know well, new author Diane Dimond. Diane, why was Michael Jackson reportedly, allegedly, in the ladies` bathroom in a shopping mall?
DIANE DIMOND, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, allegedly, reportedly, he was fixing his make-up. That`s what he was doing. But it was what he was wearing while he was fixing his make-up, Nancy. He was wearing a -- one of those chador, I think is what they call it. It was a woman`s dress and a woman`s veil. And he went into the ladies` room to fix his rouge, his make-up, his mascara, his something, and another woman came in, was so flabbergasted, she started taking pictures...
GRACE: That`s one thing you don`t want to see, a man in the ladies` room!
DIMOND: Well, especially one dressed like you are and wearing make-up like you. Anyway -- well, actually, I think the women over there don`t really even wear make-up.
GRACE: Wait. Don`t they have these in Bahrain? I mean, you don`t have to read Arabic to figure this out.
DIMOND: Well, I don`t know. Maybe -- I think the dress on the woman is a little longer over there. But according to Raymone Bain, his spokesperson, who, remarkably, is still with him, he -- it was all a mistake. He happened to walk into the wrong door, and he left right away and there was no big altercation. But according to other people, there was a woman who came in, was flabbergasted and started taking pictures with her cell phone camera. And then the two women who were with Michael Jackson -- now he`s running around with women minders, I don`t know -- sort of accosted her to get the pictures off that cell phone. And they were successful. They got them.
GRACE: So they grabbed the lady`s cell phone from her? In America, that would be simple battery. That would be a tort.
DIMOND: Well, and they called the security department to come in from the mall. And apparently, there`s some sort of rule over there that you can`t take pictures of people that don`t want you to take pictures.
GRACE: In the ladies` bathroom.
DIMOND: Wearing make-up and mascara and fixing it. Yes. I don`t know.
GRACE: But would it be better to adjust your make-up in the ladies` room or the men`s room?
DIMOND: Can you imagine Michael Jackson...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... in the men`s room?
DIMOND: ... any man walking in, dressed like woman, going into the men`s room to fix his make-up? I don`t know that that would fly even in Bahrain.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I would like to think the fans around the world for your love and your support, from every corner of the earth. I love the community of Santa Maria very much. It`s my community. My home is in this community. I will always love this community from the bottom of my heart.
I am particularly upset by the handling of this mass matter by the incredible, terrible mass media. At every opportunity, the media has dissected and manipulated these allegations to reach their own conclusions. I ask all of you to wait and hear the truth before you label or condemn me. Don`t treat me like a criminal because I am innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." Jim, isn`t it some type of misdemeanor to hang out in the wrong bathroom?
JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Yes. Here it may be. I don`t know about in Bahrain. I mean, if you ask me, Do I believe the charges or the allegations? You know, we saw him in court every day wearing make-up. Wearing make-up isn`t the issue.
GRACE: I don`t care about the make-up. I care about looking under the stall and seeing a size 12 foot on the other side. That`s my concern.
(LAUGHTER)
MORET: Oh, he`s more petite than that. And I also suspect that his comments about the horrible mass media were, unfortunately, directed toward our friend, Diane Dimond, who I`m a big fan of, by the way. I just wanted to go on the record saying that.
GRACE: Oh, now, sucking up not allowed on Headline News!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: In defense of Michael Jackson, let`s go Debra Opri, veteran trial lawyer. Debra, response?
DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Don`t worry about me. I`m not going to be sucking up. I don`t even understand why you`re giving this any air time. Let`s just talk...
GRACE: Oh, in that case...
OPRI: ... about Diane`s book.
GRACE: In that case, we`ll go -- we`ll leave Debra Opri and go to an expert in this matter, judge and former prosecutor Leslie Crocker Snyder. Judge, I only prosecuted felonies. I`m sure you`ve seen it all. Isn`t it some type of a misdemeanor or infraction to be in the wrong bathroom?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I think I`ve got -- there you go, Judge.
LESLIE CROCKER SNYDER, FORMER PROSECUTOR, JUDGE: Here I am. Well, you know, as was said before, I guess it might be in the United States. Who knows about Bahrain. They might cut your hands off or something for being in the wrong bathroom. I`m not sure. But after what Michael Jackson got away with, what is this?
GRACE: You know what? Very well put. And everybody, Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder has seen it all. So in the huge scheme of things, she`s right about that. Now, let`s try it again, Elizabeth (ph). Let`s go to Lauren Howard this time. That repeat, Lauren Howard. Lauren, help me out of this one.
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I don`t know how to help you. I mean, listen, is this new news that Michael Jackson behaves in ways that are outside of the box, that are not consistent with the way normal sort of gender relations behave? I mean, come on! Who -- so -- yes. Did he know he was going to the ladies` room? My guess is he probably thought it was a little bit of a -- you know, he`s over there now. He thinks he can sort of play around. He can walk in there and see if anyone`s found out, see if anyone noticed. He wants to look like a woman, so maybe he tried to pass.
GRACE: Diane.
DIMOND: He`s always -- he`s always behaved the way he`s wanted to behave. He`s always gone by his own drummer. It`s not just over there in Bahrain, it`s everywhere. Michael Jackson does what he wants to do, and he doesn`t think any of it`s bizarre.
GRACE: Maybe a lot of people, Jason Oshins, have, not paying attention, gone in the wrong bathroom. But once you get in there, you look around. I see the urinal, I know I`m in the wrong place, OK? You see the ladies` machine up on the wall, you know you`re in the wrong spot, OK? You leave, OK? You don`t stop to adjust your lipstick, or do you, Jason?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no. I`ve never adjusted my lipstick, Nancy. But what -- clearly, Michael probably just felt a little bit more comfortable in the ladies` room. I mean, that`s where he felt probably a little less threatened and could adjust his make-up, whereas I guess it would be frowned upon in the men`s room in Bahrain.
GRACE: You know, we`re talking tonight about Michael Jackson in a very hostile environment, no not the courtroom, the ladies` room in a very crowded shopping mall. Now, compared to all the other issues he has faced in court, this is nothing. In fact, all the evidence of it has probably been destroyed.
Diane Dimond, again regarding the cell phone, the lady was snapping photos, was that in the bathroom?
DIMOND: Yes. Apparently, it was in the bathroom. She saw this scene, was aghast, left the room, but then immediately went right back and said to herself, That was Michael Jackson, took her cell phone and started snapping pictures. That`s when, apparently, these other women who were with Michael Jackson descended upon her, took the cell phone from her, called security. And she at one point said, I want to be compensated for these pictures. Well, again, that`s some sort of law over there, and she gave that up, and ultimately gave up the phone.
GRACE: You know what? She`s twisting the system to try to get money. Next thing you know, civil lawsuit.
DIMOND: I think maybe it was a disgruntled employee. What do you think?
GRACE: Take a look at this, guys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORET: I love the community of Santa Maria very much.
BAIN: Michael Jackson hasn`t sold Neverland.
MORET: My home is in this community.
BAIN: Michael lives here.
MORET: I love my community.
BAIN: He loves here. His family is here.
MORET: I will always love this community...
BAIN: His children are growing up here.
MORET: ... from the bottom of my heart.
BAIN: He will be remaining at Neverland, and he is not moving to Europe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to introduce to you tonight, something very special, to Diane Dimond, our friend and colleague. She was covering the Jackson trial, the Jackson case all the way back to the `90s. It`s called "Be Careful Who You Love." Diane, why?
DIMOND: Why that title?
GRACE: Well, I thought you would shake the dust off and move on. Tell me about this.
DIMOND: "Be Careful Who You Love" is a book about my 12 years covering this case. You know, you hear all these snippets. You hear so much material, and you think, What`s the real story? I tried to put it all...
GRACE: And most of it...
DIMOND: ... in perspective.
GRACE: ... the jury couldn`t hear.
DIMOND: Well, a lot of it, the jury couldn`t hear, you`re right. And I called it "Be Careful Who You Love" because it is a lyric from "Billy Jean." Remember, he sings, "My mama always told me, be careful who you love." Great advice, if he`d only heeded it.
But it`s also, I think, a cautionary tale to the rest of us, Be careful who we love. We heap such praise on these celebrities. We don`t hold them to the same standard of behavior as we do. They are somehow a different breed, and I think sometimes we need to sit back, especially with our kids, who adore these superstars and these music stars and these movie stars, and say, Wait a minute. You know what? They`re just people.
GRACE: I got a question. What has become of the young boy accuser in this case? As a matter of fact, Elizabeth, do you have the shot of the various alleged accusers, the graph we made for the viewers? Let`s pull that up. We took a look -- the 1984 repressed memories of abuse from a New Orleans young man, the 1991 child star -- there were allegations of molestation there -- anonymous German boy in 1992...
DIMOND: That`s a part of a chapter in my book, right?
GRACE: Yes. All of this is in Diane`s book. The $15.3 million settlement in 1993, an alleged Australian boy child victim in `93, an alleged Australian boy victim number two in 1993, in 1994, a maid`s son, the focus of a multi-million-dollar civil settlement, and then the 2003 felony trial ending in a not guilty.
What has become of that young boy?
DIMOND: Well, he`s about 15 years old now. Actually, he`ll be 16 next month. He doesn`t have cancer anymore. I mean, this is a kid who escaped fourth-stage cancer. His mother got out of a very bad domestic violence abuse situation with his father. That`s his mother there, when she came to testify. And she`s remarried now, she remarried a man who is a`major in the Army, and he has just shipped out to Iraq. He`ll be gone at least for a year. And this boy idolizes this man, loves this man. Mama`s pregnant and is going to have another baby.
The whole family now lives under the witness protection program with other names, so that`s why I didn`t mind naming them in the book because they have other names, other identities. He goes to school. He plays football. Nobody at school knows that he was the accuser.
GRACE: And when we get back, I`m going to find out about what those jurors have to say that are all changing their minds and now saying, Well, maybe he did do it, after all. Maybe they`re going to read this, "Be Careful Who You Love" by Diane Dimond, find out all the evidence they didn`t get in a court of law.
Everyone, on a personal note, before we go to break, bad news here at the Headline News family. Our very dear friend, the head of our booking department that brings you our wonderful guests every night, Jennifer Simpson (ph), left our show last night to discover her husband, Steve, a young man in his 40s, had died of a sudden and unexpected heart attack. Tonight, please lend her your thoughts and your prayers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELEANOR COOK, JACKSON JUROR: I disliked it intensely when she snapped her fingers at us. That`s when I thought, Don`t snap your fingers at me, lady.
GRACE: Now, Diane Dimond, you little minx...
DIMOND: He`s wearing black. It`s more sedate. But he`s got these beautiful vests that he wears.
GRACE: Let`s just go to the source, Diane Dimond.
DIMOND: ... will be done picking the eight alternates tomorrow.
GRACE: Court TV`s executive investigative editor -- wow, that`s a mouthful! I just call her friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
And here she in the studio with us, Diane Dimond, a brand-new book. Good Lord, this thing is thick! "Be Careful Who You Love."
Let`s get right down to it. Jackson is gone. He`s moved to Bahrain. He is allegedly going to create a CD, cut a CD with him and his children. I want to find out, Is he under the protection of the prince in Bahrain? Do they have an extradition treaty with the United States? And what`s the latest on these jurors?
DIMOND: Well, first of all, I think he is there at the largess of this prince. I think he`s not buying any property there. His spokeswoman, Raymone Bain, said he didn`t buy any property. I believe probably the prince bought him some property there. So if there is any sort of allegation about him doing anything in Bahrain, that`s a different kind of society. We`re not going to hear about it. He`s got the protection of -- you know, you might as well call him the president. The prince there is very powerful.
As for the jurors, well, that one lady you see there, right there in the checkered shirt in the middle, 79-year-old...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... getting all the big laughs after the child molestation trial?
DIMOND: The one who voted to acquit him and then came out later and said, You know, I was coerced into that. I didn`t mean to -- I want a do over, is Eleanor Cook. She was 79 years old. I think she may be 80, at this point.
But Nancy, my investigation and my sources tell me that during the trial -- now, remember, this is a woman who -- it was announced during the trial that she was writing a book, when all was said and done. This was going to be a chapter in her book about Michael Jackson.
During the trial, sources tell me that Eleanor Cook left the courthouse, not on one occasion but on two occasions, and went to a department store where one of the prosecution`s key witnesses worked, a maid, a former Neverland maid, a woman named Adrienne McManus (ph). She went there. She talked to Adrienne McManus. Witnesses saw her there. She did a transaction. She used her J.C. Penney credit card. She left a paper trail.
And she told -- according to Adrienne McManus, she said to Adrienne McManus, I heard your testimony, I`ve known you for a long time. I believe you, and I will never, ever vote to set that man free. I think he`s a child molester. Talk about a flip-flop!
GRACE: Take a listen to what the juror had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOK: There were a couple of things that I wanted -- I can`t even remember them now, to be honest with you, without my notes and paper here in front of me. But there was a couple of things that I thought that he was guilty of, but we couldn`t prove it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Prayer services tonight for Michael and Katherine Borden (ph), allegedly murdered by their 14-year-old daughter`s 18-year old-boyfriend, David Ludwig, in jail for the killings. He allegedly fled the scene of the Bordens` Pennsylvania home, caught 600 miles away in Indiana, 14-year-old Kara Borden in the car. Ludwig`s preliminary hearing, November 23.
Also tonight, two killers still on the loose, Martin Moon, Robert Legendre. They broke out of the Iowa state penitentiary Monday by scaling a wall in an unguarded section of the prison due to budget cuts, both serving life sentences, considered armed and dangerous.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL RODRIGUEZ, JACKSON JUROR: I`m not going to stick my neck out there on this. We`re just -- I`m going to base it again on the testimony that was presented to us...
GRACE: But what do you mean...
RODRIGUEZ: ... and there was too much reasonable doubt.
GRACE: ... stick your neck out? What do you mean, stick your neck out?
RODRIGUEZ: Well...
GRACE: You don`t want to say what you thought Jackson was doing with those little boys every night?
RODRIGUEZ: Because it`s out -- it`s our own personal belief and our own thoughts, and that`s not what we have to work with. We had to work with the testimony of the witnesses and the credibility of the witnesses. And that`s all we can base it on.
GRACE: So what you believe -- you`re telling me what you believe doesn`t matter?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, it does matter, but I`m not going to go any further with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I believe that says it all. That was the jury foreperson on the Michael Jackson jury. Yes, the trial is over, but the bizarre antics continue. Michael Jackson in Bahrain just let out of the ladies bathroom. Guess what? No charges filed. Surprise, surprise.
Here in the studio with me, Diane Dimond, not only investigative reporter but author of "Be Careful Who You Love." Hey, Elizabeth, over here! There you go.
I want to ask you about how the prosecutor broke it to the little boy that a jury had ruled against him.
DIMOND: Yes, the little boy and his family were in a mall, and they saw the televisions in one of the electronic stores and saw what the verdict was.
I got lucky enough to be with the prosecution team after some of the initial interviews. And they all gathered at a lead detective`s house. They had a drink, and then Ron Zonen, the assistant DA, dialed the little boy`s number and they got him on the phone. And I -- I tell this story in the book. It was -- you know, these big, burly, tough prosecutors, these lawyers who had been fighting it out for four-and-a-half months in that trial, had tears in their eyes, Nancy, as they talked to this boy. And they just kept saying over and over, Son, we believed you. We believed you.
The district attorney, Tom Sneddon, got on the phone with him and he said, Son, you`re going to have a fine life. You got a new stepfather. Your mother loves you. You`re at a great school now. Nobody knows who you are. You just go forward and live your life, and know if you need anything, you call us.
And I came away from that moment, watching them, thinking, these -- there was no doubt in this prosecution team`s mind that this boy was telling the truth. He said he was molested at least twice, probably more, but he couldn`t remember because he was drunk. And they believed that if he was making it up, he would have said 20 times, 30 times. They really love this kid.
GRACE: Debra Opri, want to take another crack at it?
OPRI: Well, you know, with all due respect to Diane Dimond, she is a biased reporter who made a living on Michael Jackson, not the case for 12 years, but Michael Jackson`s criminal travails for 12 years.
GRACE: Oh, no! I was asking you about...
OPRI: Let me finish!
GRACE: ... the guilt or innocence. Instead of attacking Diane, if you could address that, that`d be great.
OPRI: Well, you know, with all due respect to you, Nancy, we`re talking about her book and her presentation of what the prosecution team did and how they felt about this witness. It`s the jury who found this witness with no credibility. Let the jury rule.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi there. I`m Sophia Choi. And here is your HEADLINE PRIME newsbreak.
Vice President Dick Cheney is stepping up attacks on critics who say the White House misled Americans to take the country to war. Specifically he is calling Democrats dishonest and reprehensible and says many are now contradicting their own word, 29 Democratic senators voted to go to war. He says many who now regret their decision are trying to rewrite history. Administration officials have acknowledged their intelligence was faulty.
Michael Jackson is raising some eyebrows in the United Arab Emirates, his temporary residence. Newspapers there say Jackson was seen applying makeup in a ladies restroom. Jackson spokesperson says the pop star did not understand the Arabic sign on the bathroom door.
And an alligator slowed traffic at an airport in Miami by walking across the runway. The gator put up a bit of a fight before a trapper managed to get some nooses around him and call him off. That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi.
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. The Michael Jackson story not over yet. Jackson in Bahrain. He just got led out of the ladies room in a crowded shopping mall. Very quickly to Jackson family attorney Debra Opri.
Deborah, you just made an excellent point that Diane has been reporting on this case for many, many years now. You kind of attacked her about making a living off Jackson. Weren`t you the Jackson family lawyer and what did you actually do for them? And number three, did you get paid?
OPRI: Which question do you want me to answer?
GRACE: All three.
OPRI: I`m not attacking Diane Dimond. She is a reporter. She made a good living off of Michael Jackson, but her reporting is biased. She makes no bones about it. What I`m trying to.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: If you could just answer that would be great.
OPRI: Let me finish. Let me finish. She has made a living that way saying they had great credibility. What I`m trying to tell you is a jury heard all of the evidence and made their decision. She has a section in her book where she says the judge should have declared a mistrial.
DIMOND: I do not. I do not.
OPRI: Well, I read.
(CROSSTALK)
OPRI: I`m not going to be reading the book, Diane Dimond, but from the prep I got from Nancy Grace.
GRACE: Wait a minute! So you haven`t even read the book and you`re telling what was in the book?
OPRI: From the prep I got from your people.
GRACE: Hey, I hope you don`t go into court without reading the filings.
OPRI: Nancy, Nancy, make fun all you want. From the prep I got from your producers, there is a section where she states, or she said it subsequent, that the judge should perhaps have declared a mistrial.
DIMOND: No, I didn`t.
OPRI: OK. If you didn`t, you didn`t. But what I wanted to say is the jury ruled and the jury heard the evidence. Why can`t we just leave it at that. And I wish you good luck with your book. I`m sure it will be a great seller and I wish you luck.
GRACE: And back to my original question. You were the Jackson family attorney. What did you do for them and were you paid?
OPRI: Let me put it to you this way, what arrangements I have with my clients and whether I get paid and how much I get paid, it is frankly none of your business and I won`t discuss it.
GRACE: Debra, very well put. I respect that.
OPRI: But I love you, Nancy.
GRACE: But my question is, why is it so easy for you to throw a stone at.
OPRI: I`m not throwing stones.
GRACE: I`d like to finish. At Diane when you were there at the courthouse blowing kisses and air hugs to the Jacksons every time they drove away from the courthouse?
OPRI: Diane -- I respect Diane Dimond. I think she`s a great journalist. I`ve called her many times and told her this. I have no problems with her. But when we`re talking about the topic of Michael Jackson, what I`m trying to say is I believe she`s biased. I am a person.
DIMOND: I`ll put my knowledge up against yours any day. And I have not spent the last 12 years covering.
OPRI: Diane, I wish you the best of luck.
DIMOND: . him -- I covered him in `93 and then I went on to cover the presidential politics, presidential impeachment.
OPRI: And I`m sure you`ll cover him for years to come.
DIMOND: . and you know, you are pretty difficult to talk to because you never listen, Debra.
OPRI: I have no bones to pick with you, Diane, as a representative of the Jackson family, all I say is the jury ruled. That`s it.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. And since we weren`t talking about that -- response?
DIMOND: You know, this is the same sort of treatment I`ve gotten for 12 years. They don`t like the message. They don`t like facts coming out so suddenly I`m biased. There are never any specifics given. I reported with you for, what, a year at COURT TV on Michael Jackson.
I defy you, Debra Opri, to sit down and make me a list of where I was biased and prove me wrong.
OPRI: OK. Let me just say to you.
DIMOND: Come on, I`ll do it with you anytime. I`ll argue this.
OPRI: I had a meeting at COURT Television.
DIMOND: . because I know a lot more about this subject than you do.
OPRI: I had a meeting at COURT Television right after the trial was over. And the comment I heard off the record was that COURT TV took a great blast because it was so pro prosecution. So you go figure that one out, Diane Dimond, who is no longer with COURT Television.
DIMOND: OK. Well, guess what, I`m not taking your word for it, Debra, sorry.
GRACE: Well, you know, the truth is, Diane, that we all came under intense attack by Michael Jackson fans worldwide.
DIMOND: Welcome to my world. It has happened to me.
OPRI (singing): Welcome to my world.
GRACE: From e-mails when I was at the grocery store, on my BlackBerry, to hang up calls, crank calls, death threats, you name it.
OPRI: I got them too, Nancy. I got it, too.
GRACE: As I was trying to say, there is no end to it. And frankly, Diane, I`m actually concerned about you living through all that again after writing this book.
DIMOND: Well, I worry about that too, Nancy. I do. And you have hit a real personal note with me because during the trial it all came up again. And there were lots of threats and law enforcement came to me every other day and said, please take out a restraining order, please help us protect you. And I said, no, no, no, I`m not the story.
I worry that with the release of that book yesterday, that I will again unleash people like Debra Opri who don`t listen, who have fans at their beck and call, to make the threats and come to my home, like they did in 1993, and God forbid hurt somebody in my family.
You know my family. You were with us all last night. And I do worry about it because they adore that man. They believe he can do no wrong and maybe he did do no wrong. My book lays out a pattern of behavior and the facts. The facts. And people can decide for themselves whether or not he`s guilty.
GRACE Well, I certainly will. I want to thank you for giving me the book. And I demand an autograph.
DIMOND: You betcha.
GRACE: And while you`re doing that, everybody, we are switching gears. We`re going out to California on another case, the Pamela Vitale case.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL HOROWITZ, HUSBAND OF PAMELA VITALE: I just cried and cried when I can feel her pain or feel her beauty. And then I do business, it is like a vacation. And then I`m angry. But I know anger is not going to bring her back so it doesn`t matter. And I remember what you said about the death penalty. And I`m not going to back off of that no matter what.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tomorrow we`re expecting an announcement from Daniel Horowitz as to whether he`s returning to the practice of law, specifically whether he will continue the defense in the murder case of Susan Polk. Tonight though, regarding what happened in court today, Jim Moret is with us, chief correspondent with "INSIDE EDITION."
Jim, what happened today?
JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, basically, it was a narrow issue. The judge heard arguments on whether or not to lift a gag order with respect to witnesses, investigators, attorneys. You know that there was a temporary gag order issued and it has been fought specifically by Gloria Allred and a San Francisco newspaper claiming that it is unfair to gag individuals.
Gloria Allred, her position is, she wants to protect her client`s reputation, in this case her client is the girlfriend of Scott Dyleski, the suspect in this case. The judge has not yet ruled. He says he`s inclined to issue a narrow order. The question, of course, will it affect the defense right to a fair trial? And we should hear from the judge in the next day or so what his decision will be.
GRACE: And did Dyleski appear in court today?
MORET: No, he waived his right to appear in court. The judge allowed him to waive that right. I mean, this was a very specific issue with respect to a gag order, and Scott Dyleski, through his attorney, said he did not feel he needed to be there. And the judge said, that`s fine.
GRACE: And speaking of a gag order, Elizabeth?
(PICTURE OF GLORIA ALLRED WITH "X" OVER MOUTH)
GRACE: Uh-oh, Gloria Allred is in on this case. She`s representing Scott Dyleski`s girlfriend. He was with her immediately following the murder. Apparently the two of them had sex immediately after Pam Vitale was bludgeoned to death. Gloria is representing the girlfriend who I guarantee will be a chief witness for the state. Gag order. Gag order.
But my question to Karl Olson with The San Francisco Chronicle, why does the judge want a gag order? Do you expect a reversal in that ruling?
KARL OLSON, ATTORNEY, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE: It is hard to say. The defendant and the prosecution argued that it would prejudice their right to a fair trial. We believe he will get a fair trial. You have cases like the Michael Jackson case where there is a lot of publicity and the defendant is acquitted. That was the case in the O.J. Simpson case. So you have to sacrifice his right to a fair trial and you don`t have to sacrifice -- you shouldn`t sacrifice the press` right to cover the news and people`s right to talk to the press if they wish.
GRACE: To former -- to Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder, former prosecutor, do judges -- in my experience, they do not typically order gag orders. So why now?
LESLIE CROCKER SNYDER, FMR. PROSECUTOR, JUDGE: Well, you`re absolutely right, we don`t like to order gag orders because there are all sorts of constitutional and First Amendment issues. But it is very tempting to issue a narrow gag order, I`m sure in California, especially, where we see even more of this kind of thing than we do here.
And I guess Gloria is seen as having somewhat of a history of always talking about the case. But I would think the judge would do a very narrow order and that`s what he`s contemplating. He has an absolute right if he thinks there is a substantial likelihood of material prejudice to restrain the parties.
The newspapers and the media, however, he`s not attempting to issue a gag order as to them. That`s rarely done and it`s a much higher standard. So the media comes in and says that their rights are being prejudiced, but frankly they can hear everything in open court. They`ve got access to what everyone else has access to. So I don`t really think they have any legitimate complaint here.
GRACE: And to Jason Oshins, what burns me up is, for instance, in the Jackson case where juror number five, Ms. Cook (ph), was yakking it up with a witness at the mall during the trial, they want to gag people from reporting on a trial. Jason Oshins, gag order, yes-no?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, Nancy, I don`t think it is necessary. You know, by and large, as the judge said, you tailor it very narrowly. I don`t think it really makes a difference in today`s society. I really don`t. I think a lot of times prosecutors are threatened by powerful defense counsel that can go and influence a case and maybe they don`t feel they`re savvy enough to do it.
GRACE: And very quickly, to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, a big stir tomorrow regarding Horowitz`s decision, whether he will continue practicing law or not. He told me he`s going to pack up and hike the world and wander the world for the rest of his life. What would go into that decision.
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Nancy, honestly, I think it is a little too soon for Daniel to make that decision because at this moment, there is an enormous horrificness about the whole -- sort of what occurs in that kind of world. And he just recovered. I mean, just in the very beginning of this, there had to be some guilt on his part that his work might have led to this -- to his wife`s death, which in fact, it doesn`t appear that that is the case. I think he needs more time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOROWITZ: I mean, you scream, you cry. But I know I just basically sat with her and I just told her, I love you and you`re beautiful. And just whatever things you say to somebody you love because to me, at that point, all that was there was the person I love. I mean, it didn`t matter anymore what was around her or the horror. I had so much time with Pamela. So I just looked at the face and it was beautiful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The perpetrator likely came right up here, knew exactly where he was going. I`ve been inside the trailer. And from the kitchen window, you can see someone coming up. I`ve been in and out the door. And the place of her death is immediately as you walk in the trailer door. So the theory that she was attacked right there is correct. There is the limits of the pool of blood, blood on the wall, on the inside of the door. That is where the attack and the death all took place. Right as she opened the door, that morning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We`re talking about the bludgeoning death of Pamela Vitale, the wife of our friend and colleague, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz, planning to make an in-court announcement tomorrow regarding his career as a trial lawyer. Very quickly to a special friend, joining us by phone, a friend of Daniel`s, Steve Clark.
Steve, any idea or speculation on your part whether Horowitz is going to go back in the courtroom and defend criminals like the one that murdered his wife?
STEVE CLARK, FRIEND OF DANIEL HOROWITZ: Nancy, Dan is a very gifted trial lawyer and he belongs in the courtroom. I talk to him on a personal level frequently. He becomes stronger and more focused every day. I think that he`s done a lot of soul searching on this and I`m very, very hopeful that his decision is to return to trial work, which -- that`s what he was born to do.
His life will never be the same. He knows that. And we all know that. But I think that where he belongs is in the courtroom. And I`m really hoping that the decision he tells us about tomorrow will be to go back and defend people charged with crimes. That`s what he does. He`s an expert. And that`s what I`m really hoping for. I think Dan will be happiest doing that.
GRACE: And to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, not only going back to trial work, but back to defending criminals like the one that killed his wife.
HOWARD: You know, if you believe in the law -- and Daniel Horowitz is a really good guy and a really brilliant lawyer, and he believes in the law. And he believes in a person`s right to be defended. And that is a value that doesn`t -- that won`t change if in fact a person is defense -- a person is entitled to their defense and whether or not they`re regarded as indefensible or not is not at issue.
So if he does return to the law, listen, he might change the kinds of people he defends, those are all questions that he needs to explore and answer. And I hope he takes the time and does it. I agree with his colleague, he`s a brilliant lawyer. He needs to stay in the law. He needs to practice law.
GRACE: Daniel, we hope you`re listening tonight.
Very quickly, to a Florida courtroom. As you all know, the man on trial for the kidnap, rape, and murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia facing the Florida death penalty, depending what a jury decides. Today, a stunning and questionable courtroom move. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I only saw her twice a year, two weeks at a clip. But now she can see me always. She`s in a better place. She got there in a horrific manner. But now she`s watching me all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was the father of Carlie Brucia speaking out before trial. Elizabeth, do we have the sound from the courtroom yet?
Very quickly I want to go to Todd Ruger, reporter with The Sarasota Herald Tribune. Jury reaction in the courtroom today to the prosecution`s closing statement?
TODD RUGER, SARASOTA HERALD TRIBUNE: It was -- they`ve been stayed all week. They`ve been watching every piece of evidence, very closely. They`ve been taking their job very seriously. Again, they were showing this powerful evidence that the prosecutors have brought in this case, three major pieces of powerful evidence. They were in and out of the courtroom a lot today. But they`ve really been taking their job seriously.
GRACE: And today, the end of all that evidence, been following the prosecution`s closing statement. Here`s what the defense had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM TEBRUGGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Your honor, opposing counsel, members of the jury, we waive closing argument.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jason Oshins, have you ever seen in a death penalty case the defense waive closing statement?
OSHINS: Nancy, I`ve never seen it, I`ve never heard of it. I think your proper reaction was shocking. The only thing I take note of, how focused the attorney was about addressing everyone, as if, yes, I`m sane and I`m doing this anyway and here look at me.
I don`t know what he got out of that. I can`t imagine that he was that calculated to think that it would get overturned on appeal for lack of effective assistance of counsel. I want to give attorney more credit for thinking that out than doing what he just did.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist. Dr. Kobilinsky, what do you make of the evidence in the Brucia case?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, there`s a very significant amount of evidence, in particular we know about the videotape. We also know that we have Carlie`s hair in his vehicle. We have an autopsy report that clearly demonstrates that she was ligated, tied by the wrists, she was sexually assaulted, she was strangled to death by manual force from the rear. And, of course, the most crucial piece of information is the DNA found on the back of her shirt. That DNA is a mixture of this Mr. Smith`s sperm cells, plus Carlie`s DNA. Now, nobody can say that was planted because nobody had his sperm cells except for him. Solid evidence.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEBRUGGE: We believe that we had made every significant point during the course of the trial that we hoped would come out. Therefore we did not believe that closing argument would serve any further purpose in the case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How often is this done?
TEBRUGGE: It is an unusual strategy. However, I have done this before in other cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has it worked?
TEBRUGGE: I was trying to remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Can`t remember if it worked. Hint, hint, no. It didn`t work. It didn`t work today. Very quickly to Jason Oshins.
Jason, giving him some credit on this. The state in that jurisdiction has a right to opening and closing closing arguments. At first, they discussed the law and they lay out what they think the judge is going to say. By him refusing to give closing statement, they lost their rebuttal closing. And therefore holding Carlie`s shirt up to the jury, talking about the pain she went through in asphyxiation and rape of an 11-year-old girl, the jury never heard that by the state. So maybe she`s crazy like a fox.
OSHINS: Well, maybe. But nonetheless, with a death penalty-eligible case, you would certainly like the opportunity to go ahead and point out the reasonable doubt and focus on that. You really would like that, Nancy.
GRACE: Leslie Crocker Snyder, what do you think?
SNYDER: Judge hopefully made a very lengthy record because in a potential death penalty case, to have the defendant waive closing statement, the judge better have done a really thorough inquiry that this is what the defendant wanted, that he understood his rights because maybe crazy like a fox, but this is in my view, Jason, building in potential error in a very major case. So I would be very concerned if I were the judge. Watch that record.
GRACE: You know, Judge, you`re absolutely correct. And this trial judge did ask the defendant on the record, did he agree with no closing? The defendant said, yes. But I can tell.
SNYDER: That`s not enough.
GRACE: . you this much, it was like a lead balloon, total silence.
SNYDER: I don`t think it`s enough.
GRACE: . when he announced no closing argument. I want to thank the judge as well as all of my guests. Diane Dimond with her new book. But our biggest thank you tonight and every night is to you for being with us, inviting all of us and our legal stories into your homes.
Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight.
And, again, we ask for your prayers and your thoughts for Jennifer and her husband Steve. See you here tomorrow night, everybody, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, friend.
END
