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Killer Captured - Another Remains at Large; Joseph Smith Guilty; New Iraq Torture Charges; Dick Cheney Unleashed; Undercover in North Korea; Persistent 911 Operator Saves Lives of Couple; Do Men Lie More or Differently Than Women? When Is A Lie OK?

Aired November 17, 2005 - 23:00   ET


ANNOUNCER (voice-over): President Bush, in Asia, talks tough on North Korea. Tonight, we take you inside the brutal regime of Kim Jong-Il: Hidden camera images people risk their lives to take; Public executions; concentration camps; Koreans lying dead in the streets. A shocking look at the real North Korea.
And lies, lies, lies! From little white ones to very public ones.


BILL CLINTON, FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.


ANNOUNCER: Have we become a nation of liars? Tonight, why we lie, when and who does it more -- men or women? We take your calls to learn the truth about lying.

This is Anderson Cooper 360. Live from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The latest on the nationwide search for a dangerous convict on the loose. But first, here's what's happening right now.

A top House Democrat who was a strong supporter of the Iraq war now says U.S. troops should start withdrawing right now. Congressman John Mirth (ph) of Pennsylvania says American troops, quote, "Have done all they can there." And he says they've become a target for the insurgency. The White House has responded, equating Mirth's (ph)call with surrender and comparing him to Michael Moore.

President Bush is in South Korea, where he's reiterated the U.S. position that North Korea should not get a nuclear reactor until it proves its given up its nuclear weapons programs. Mr. Bush will meet up with Russian President Vladimir Putin tomorrow before this weekend's APEC Summit.

In Pennsylvania, a cache of weapons at the helm of an accused of a double-murderer. Police found 54 firearms and ammo in a search of David Ludwig's house. He's the 18-year old accused of killing his girlfriend's parents. If convicted, he could face life in prison. And the Louisiana governor's office has accepted a plan by FEMA to pay the cost of $13 million in DNA testing used to identify those killed by Hurricane Katrina. Hundreds of bodies still remain unidentified. The process has been slowed during a bureaucratic fight over whether the state or federal government should pay for the DNA testing.

One shot his roommate to death, the other tried to kill a man with a hammer. They were vicious criminals, sentenced to life behind bars. On Sunday, however, they escaped, climbing a 30-foot prison wall to freedom. Tonight, the killer is caught, but the other escaped convict remains a wanted man. CNN's Keith Oppenheim is following the manhunt.


KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One down, one to go. Convicted murderer Martin Shane Moon, on the run for three days after escaping from prison; now in custody after police spotted him in a stolen car.

But his partner in the escape, Robert Legendre, also serving a life sentence after being convicted of attempted murder, is still on the run. And police say he could be anywhere.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Half way to -- but there's still one out there yet. It only takes one to do damage. And it could happen anytime. We don't know.


OPPENHEIM: Moon might have been caught because he didn't know where he was. Police say he parked the stolen car to get some sleep, not knowing he was just outside another penitentiary.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was unaware that it was the Department of Corrections, bordered the back road and was waiting until daybreak when he thought rush hour would start and he could fill up again and steal the gas and leave before anyone would notice he was even here.


OPPENHEIM: But someone did know. Prison guards founds him while on routine patrol around the property and alerted police. They said Moon tried to drive off and ran into some woods. Police sent a canine unit after him.


DONAL MCKINNEY, CHESTER POLICE CHIEF: About 20-25minutes after they went into the woods with the dog, the dog tracked a clean track right straight up to a tree and located the subject in a tree. (END VIDEO CLIP)

OPPENHEIM: Police in Illinois say they believe Moon and Legendre had split up early.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Moon had said that the other guy had injured his leg during the escape and he said it would slow him down and the -- most likely that they split up because it's easier for one to get away than two of them to get away.


OPPENHEIM: On Monday, prison officials say Moon and Legendre scaled a wall near an unmanned guard tower at the Iowa State Penitentiary in Fort Madison, stole a car and disappeared. Police at Fort Madison are worried.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Felt pretty safe up until this happened. Now you got to start locking your doors and being a little more careful.

OPPENHEIM: More careful, but also on the lookout. Moon was found in the region, but police say Legendre may have gone farther and they're asking the public for help.


OPPENHEIM: Police say after the escape on Monday, Legendre and Moon left in a stolen car, a 1995 gold Pontiac Bonneville with a fairly easy license plate to remember -- Iowa plate 776-NOW. But that car still hasn't been spotted and investigators think that if they could find out where that car is, it might help them figure out where Legendre went off to.

As for Moon, Martin Shane Moon, well he's coming back to the place where he left. Back right here to the Iowa State Penitentiary and should be here by tomorrow -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Keith, thanks very much. The man leading the investigation into the prison escape is Eugene Meyer, director of Iowa's Division of Criminal Investigation. He joins me now on the phone from Des Moines.


Congratulations on the apprehension of this one man. Has he given any information about where his accomplice might be?

EUGENE MEYER, DIRECTOR, IOWA DIVISION OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION (voice-over): No, he has not, Anderson. I think we're pretty well convinced that they split up shortly after they left the penitentiary on Monday evening.

COOPER: And apparently he'd said that Legendre was injured -- his leg was injured. Do you have a sense of how badly the injury is? MEYER: Well, if we're to believe Mr. Moon that Legendre's leg was injured and it very well may have been, Legendre certainly was capable of riding a bicycle for over a mile before he encountered a running a vehicle, which he later stole -- that being a gold '95 Pontiac Bonneville.

COOPER: I guess that is a good point. I mean how much credence can you put into what Moon is saying?

MEYER: Well, certainly. We're going to take it into account and evaluate it very carefully, but I think everyone can understand why there -- we may be a bit suspicious of what he's telling us.

COOPER: Do you know -- that gold -- the vehicle that we've all been talking about, the gold vehicle, with the license plate that we've all been referencing -- I know that has not been found. How did he get -- Moon get the vehicle that we was found in?

MEYER: Well, he obtained that vehicle in Ferris, Illinois, where he stole it out of a driveway.

COOPER: And where -- I mean, where does the search -- where does it stand now? I mean, have you been able to contact the next of kin, the relatives, any known accomplices or past accomplices of Mr. Legendre?

MEYER: That work has been ongoing since the escape heard on Monday, which those -- that kind of information allows us to try to predict where he may go and we've been working very closely with authorities across the United States, including the FBI and the United States Marshall Service.

COOPER: Mr. Meyer, I appreciate you joining us tonight. It's a busy day, busy couple days for you. Thanks very much.

MEYER: Thank you.


COOPER: Joining me from Las Vegas is John Walsh, the host of "America's Most Wanted." John, thanks very much for joining us.

You know, luck, it seemed played a big role in the capture of this guy, Martin Moon. Is that often the way fugitives -- is that often what happens when fugitives get captured?

JOHN WALSH, HOST, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED": Well, I think luck is a big factor in capturing fugitives, but it's really the general public. I mean, I have to applaud you and CNN when you guys teamed up with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and showed all those pictures of missing kids from Hurricane Katrina. And you guys reunited families.

And that's who usually catches fugitives that are on the run. It's usually the public who spots them and has the guts to make that call. So the more you put the hot white spotlight on this guy, it's probably going to be the public with a tip that's going to capture this guy.

And they're really not bright. The last guys that we ever profiled that were really bright went against all, all the conventional ways that guys escape was the Texas Seven. They stayed mainly together and almost made it to Canada.

But I don't think this guy's going to be out there much longer. We're going to put him on Saturday night and make his world a much smaller place.

COOPER: Yes, you guys have such a great track record of getting these guys. And were you surprised to hear that they had split up?

WALSH: No, many times -- again the real, really fascinating thing about the Texas Seven were that they stayed together, they laid low, they pretended they were bible students. They stayed out there for almost a month. And these guys are not that bright.

Although, I say one thing about Legendre, he was convicted right here in Las Vegas in Nevada for kidnapping and attempting to murder a cab driver and he beat that guy almost to death with a ball pein hammer. And this guy, I really think people should be very, very alert and watch out for this guy because he's ruthless and he's probably getting real desperate.

COOPER: I want to switch gears now and talk about a case which reached -- well, another stage today. Joseph Smith was convicted today of kidnapping, first degree murder and sexual battery of Carly Brucia.

I assumed you watched it probably live. What were your thoughts when you were watching it?

WALSH: Well, we were very involved in that case and I know her parents and a lot of the family members. And my gut feeling was that they're going through hell right now. They're looking for justice. But during this trial, they had to relive and look at that videotape time after time of Joseph Smith capturing this, grabbing this little girl, catching her by surprise and then brutally raping her and murdering her.

But I think everybody's got to ask the same question -- no matter how outraged you are by this tape -- you've got to ask the same question. Why was this guy out there? He was convicted of 14 felonies. He was a parole violator. He should have been off the streets.

And I'm working with the family on the Child Safety Act of 2005 which would make a national registry of all these convicted sex offenders like Joseph Smith. Chairman Sensenbrenner's gotten it through the House Judiciary and it's stuck in the United States Senate.

And I think everybody should be furious -- especially watching that guy grab Carly Brucia and what he did to that family. They still have to go through the penalty phase of this trial. And to say to their members of the United States Senate, why hasn't this bill gotten out? Why hasn't it passed and why are you waiting to take a vote on it?

COOPER: As I seem to recall, it's been there since like September 15 or so.

WALSH: Absolutely. Anderson, you and I have talked about this before. I worked on this bill for two years. It would create a national registry of all sex offenders. We've got about 550,000 convicted sex offenders in this country; 150,000 of them are still out there, identity -- I mean, whereabouts unknown. Could be roaming around like that dangerous convict.

And the United States Senate, you know, Arlin Spector's been a friend of mine for 20 years. He worked on the Missing Children's Bill. He said I'll get it out of the Judiciary Committee. But it's stuck on the -- it's stuck somewhere in the United States Senate.

And Anderson, this is not the time to put your pork barrel stuff on or your hidden agendas or to jam it on this bill. The American public should be mad and say why isn't this bill on the floor of the Senate and why hasn't it been passed?

COOPER: John Walsh, it's great to talk to you as always. Thanks very much, John.

WALSH: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: This Saturday, "America's Most Wanted" is going to focus on the search for Peter Braunstein, a fake firefighter accused of raping a woman on Halloween in New York City.

Coming up next on 360, who are you going to call when your administration is under fire? The White House heavy, of course. Vice President Dick Cheney, on the attack.

A rare and chilling look inside North Korea. Public executions caught on videotape. The pictures smuggled out of the country. People risking their lives to bring you these images. What happened to the filmmaker? You'll find out ahead.

And the unvarnished truth about lying. Why we lie, how often we do it. You might be surprised on what we lie about. And who lies more -- do you think men or women? We're going to take your questions a little later in the program. Email us at, click on the instant feedback link or call us at 877-648-3639, that's 877-648-3639. No lie.


COOPER: Well, to Iraq now. In a CNN exclusive, the first pictures in the latest round of accusations or Iraqi prisoners being tortured. Think you've heard this one before? You haven't. This is where Iraqis have been torturing Iraqis. Here's Senior International Correspondent Nic Robertson.


NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): No other journalist has taken pictures here. These are the first glimpses of the jail where the Iraqi Interior Ministry admits it tortured detainees. We came here because the Interior Minister invited journalists to look around. Iraqi troops guard the gates where only a few days ago U.S. soldiers arrived to discover more than 160 malnourished prisoners crowded in a bunker. Despite the ministerial invitation, we were politely turned away.

(On camera): The detention facility is within this housing area. During Saddam Hussein's regime, it was infamous for torture. And as it was during Saddam Hussein's regime, the concern is now the tortures here may not be an isolated case.

(Voice-over): And the previous Interior Minister of Sunni goes further, quoting sources he describes as reliable. He says he is 95 percent sure there were killings as well as torture.


NAQIB AL FALAH, FORMER INTERIOR MINISTER: I cannot confirm 100 percent, but there's some people has been killed by the torture. When they torture them, they have been -- some of them, they die.


ROBERTSON: Speaking out for the first time since the discovery of torture victims of one of his ministry's jail, Iraq's Shi'i Interior Minster sought to play down the allegations. He disputed the number of torture victims, defended his officers and insisted they observed human rights. And he said, those imprisoned were there for good reason.


BAYAN JABR, IRAQI INTERIOR MINISTER, Those detainees, those criminal killers inside the bunker were not Indians nor Pakistanis, nor Iranians. Those were your Arab brothers that came here to kill your sons.


ROBERTSON: Jabr's message has no attraction with Fei Kaujaburi (ph), a young Sunni religious student's funeral. Banners call for an end to the interior ministry's terror.

His brother explains. Villagers were suspicious about Juafik (ph) and called the government terrorism hotline. They came in government vehicles with tinted windows and arrested him he says. We heard nothing about him until he was found in a field blindfolded. His hands tied behind his back with signs of torture.

Families of the dead and tortured are now convinced the government is the enemy. The allegations of killing and torture polarizing people and politicians alike. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Nic, I mean, how big a story is this in Baghdad and throughout Iraq right now?

ROBERTSON: It's big. I mean, and it extends beyond Baghdad. There are allegations of these types of detention and torture facilities exist elsewhere in the south and in the north of the country. And it's big in Baghdad because people are concerned. It's coming up right before the elections. And it's dividing them, this whole Sunni Shi'i split. This just drives an even bigger wedge through that opening gap, Anderson.

COOPER: The man you had in your piece, the former interior minister, the Sunni, was he an interior minister under Saddam Hussein?

ROBERTSON: No. He was the interior -- the last interior minister before this one.

COOPER: OK. And what about the -- I mean they're talking of an investigation. Does anyone have any confidence that there actually will be an investigation there?

ROBERTSON: I asked the former interior minister that. He has no confidence. He thinks there'll be a back room political deal. Of course, the U.S. is having an investigation into this. The Iraqi government's got one as well. I think a lot of people here are looking to see whether the U.S. gets its investigation. There's very little faith that the government-run investigation here will be open and thorough.

COOPER: Nic, thanks for the exclusive pictures. Thanks very much.

Along with the Iraqis, the Bush administration is also accused of torturing detainees. Tonight, in an exclusive interview with ITV's News, Former CIA Director Admiral Stansfield Turner said the White House condones and approves torture. But he saves his harshest words for Dick Cheney. Here's what he said.


STANSFIELD TURNER, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that the United States has a vice president for torture. I think it is just reprehensible.


COOPER: He called him a vice president for torture. You heard it -- a former CIA director calling the vice president, that of course, Stansfield Turner was CIA director under President Jimmy Carter, Democrat. We don't know if Mr. Cheney's going to respond. But if he does, you can be sure, based on his past comments, he's not going to be shy this time.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER (voice-over): In the Bush administration, you've got your upbeat optimist.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And now we have reached a time for hope.


COOPER: And then you've got Dick Cheney.


DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That we are not yet safe. Threats are still are still out there.


COOPER: He's the White House heavy who doesn't do subtle.


CHENEY: And the suggestion that's been made by some U.S. Senators that the president of the United States or any member of his administration purposely mislead the American people on prewar intelligence is one of the most dishonest and reprehensible charges ever aired in this city.


COOPER: For Cheney, it's all about absolutes. The last election, a matter of life or death.


CHENEY: Because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again.


COOPER: The Democrats waffling and weak. According to Cheney, if John Kerry had called the shots,


CHENEY: Saddam Hussein would still be in power today in Iraq. In fact, Saddam Hussein would almost certainly still in control of Kuwait.


COOPER: If vice presidents are attack dogs, Dick Cheney is a political pit bull.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHENEY: Even in this post 9/11 period, Senator Kerry doesn't appear to understand how the world has changed. He talks about leading a more sensitive war on terror --


CHENEY: -- as though Al Qaeda will be impressed with our softer side.



COOPER: His language, blunt, to put it mildly, which Cheney never does.


CHENEY: Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us.


COOPER: For him, each political battle is an all out war.


CHENEY: The president and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing their memory or their backbone. But we're not going to sit by and let them rewrite history.


COOPER: A west wing powerhouse, whose bark always matches his bite.


COOPER: No doubt.

Erica Hill from "Headline News" joins us with some of the other stories we're following tonight. Hi Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we begin in Florida with a man whose crime sickened the nation. Just hours ago, Joseph Smith found guilty of first-degree murder in the slaying of 11-year old Carly Brucia, whom he abducted in 2004. Smith was also convicted of sexual battery. The girl's mother said the crimes against her daughter were the work of a quote, "disgusting perverted animal."

In Atlanta, some frightening moments for three people in a small plane today. The pilot couldn't get the landing gear down, so he pulled off a belly land and luckily no one was injured. Some new economic numbers tonight and another sign the housing market is cooling off. Housing starts split to an annual rate of just over 2 million. That's down from 2.13 million in September. One economist says they start to stay above 2 million for seven straight months, indicating still a little life left in the market.

And a firm Ramala, I mean does this traffic cop have all the right moves or what? You got to love how he deals with the stress of rush hour traffic in the West Bank. H's apparently been doing it for a decade and has just gotten about 14 seconds of fame, with one second left.

Anderson, back to you.

COOPER: Erica, thanks.

Coming up next on 360, a startling look at a country its leader would rather you weren't able to see at all. Kim Jong Ill's North Korea -- the real North Korea.

And the remarkable story of a couple threatened by an invisible killer and their 911 plea for help. Could the same thing happen to you?


COOPER: President Bush was in South Korea today, looking north, saying that nuclear arms will not be tolerated on Kim Jong Ill's side of the demilitarized zone. The president also said, quote, "I see a peninsula one day that is united in peace."

Here's what you need to know about the story that follows. The pictures you are about to see were smuggled out of North Korea at enormous risk. They show with terrible clarity what life is really like in a country its leader has tried to keep secret. What life is like and what death is like. Be warned, you are about to see a public execution.


CORRESPONDENT(voice-over): North Korea, March 2005. A crowd has been ordered to gather in an open field. A party official makes an announcement.

JUDGE: Those who go against their country and people will end up with a fate such as this.

CORRESPONDENT: Children have been brought to watch.

CHILD: Mum, I want to go.

MOTHER: Just hold on. Let's watch, then go.

CORRESPONDENT: The sentence is about to be passed.

JUDGE: All the workers who came here today, the inhabitants of the nearby village ... are about to learn the punishment for these crimes.

CORRESPONDENT: Three men are about to die.

OFFICIAL: How stupid these criminals are. Kim Jung II is great in comparison to these worthless criminals.

WOMAN IN CROWD: Carry out the death sentence immediately!

CORRESPONDENT: These people have committed the crime most damaging to North Korea's leader, Kim Jung Ill. They made contact with the outside world.

JUDGE: They have been involved in the illegal act of aiding people to defect the country. They trafficked women across the border to China. We have to protect North Korea from the outside influence and build up a strong guard ... to keep these influences out.

CORRESPONDENT: Three policemen step forward and raise their rifles. On the left, a prisoner is tied to a pole.

The next day, a different town. Another public execution for the same crimes, helping people escape to the outside world.

The man with a secret camera walks into a vacant building and talks to his audience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were accused of human trafficking offenses. Men, women and children came to watch.

CORRESPONDENT: This video was passed from person to person along a secret underground network. Powerful evidence of public executions under the regime of Kim Jong Ill.

North Korea is the last Stalinist regime, a closed one-party state founded on a personality cult. A rogue regime known for repression of its people and a menacing nuclear arms program. A nearly bankrupt nation, where in the 1990s the U.S. government says more than two million men, women and children starved to death during a famine.

Kim Jong Ill denied the famine even existed. Kim Jong Ill's absolute power depends on his people remaining oblivious to life outside the secret state, believing as he says that North Korea is paradise.

But now his control is being challenged by his own people and word is getting out. Dissidents are using technology to show the world images of the secret state have never been seen before. They are also giving North Koreans their first views of what life is like on the outside.


COOPER: Amazing pictures. Coming up next on 360, an invisible killer in the home and the chilling 911 call for help. Could your family face the same fate? And when is it OK to lie? Is it ever OK? Coming up, an ethicist is here to take your calls and emails. And the author of a new book titled, "All Men are Liars." Really?

Call us with your biggest lies, or your questions about them, dial 1-877-648-3639, or click on the, e-mail us at See I lied and click on the instant feedback link.


COOPER: So, a 911 call from a couple on the verge of death. That's coming up, but first here's what's happening at this moment.

Another wrinkle in the massively wrinkled CIA-gate investigation. Sources say it was not Vice President Dick Cheney who tipped off "Washington Post" reporter Bob Woodward about Valerie Plame's secret identity. Woodward's notes make that clear, so says the Associated Press.

A senior White House -- a senior House Democrat, I should say, who supported the war, now calls the Iraqi invasion flawed. John Murtha, of Pennsylvania, urging the president to bring the troops home. In response, the White House said of Murtha, who is a retired Marine colonel, wounded twice in Vietnam, that he was essentially calling for surrender and likening to anti-war filmmaker Michael Moore.

And some hope for New Orleans families awaiting the bodies of their loved ones. Tonight, FEMA has finally changed its mind and is offering to pay for most of the cost of the DNA testing needed to identify bodies. And the Louisiana governor's office said today it will pay its part of the cost as well.

Every now and then we get a hold of a 911 call that really stops us in our tracks and takes our breath away. That is what this one will do to you tonight. It is from Massachusetts. The call is a life and death plea and the only person who can help the two victims has no idea where they are or what's wrong with them. CNN's Chris Huntington reports.


CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Carol Condon handles emergency calls for the police and fire departments in the Boston suburb of Waltham, Massachusetts. A little after 2:30 in the morning this past Tuesday, she received a 911 call unlike any she's ever heard in her 10 years on the job.


CAROL CONDON, 911 OPERATOR: OK, ma'am, what's the problem?

HELEN ROY: I don't even talk. I can't talk. My husband is very...(INAUDIBLE)

CONDON: OK, you have to give me your address to help you. Where are you? Are you in Waltham? Where are you?

HELEN ROY: (Whimpers) Inside the shop!

CONDON: You're inside what shop?


CONDON: There was something seriously wrong with the female. She was injured somehow, but I didn't know how or where.

HUNTINGTON (on camera): Did you speculate on what you thought might be happening.

CONDON: As soon as I could hear a man in the background I thought that maybe there was a male in the building who had harmed her in some way.

HUNTINGTON: So, you are thinking potentially domestic dispute or some sort of assault?

CONDON: Correct.

HUNTINGTON: The call was from Helen Roy. She and her husband Bob were in trouble. But neither was capable of explaining what was wrong, where they were located or even who they were.


CONDON: You inside a building?


CONDON: OK, what does the building look like? Is it an office building? Tell me what's your first name?

HELEN ROY: July 7th.

CONDON: You said your birthday. What's your name?


HUNTINGTON: To make matters worse, the Roys were using a cell phone, virtually impossible to trace to an exact location. So rescuers rushed to the nearest cell phone tower, while Condon strung out the conversation with the Roys.

CONDON: I finally get Bob on the phone and I'm not sure what Bob has done, or what's going on with Bob. And I find it curious as to why they'd be in a shop at 2:30 in the morning.

HUNTINGTON (on camera): This is Bob Roy's welding business. As you can see, it is a garage style shop in an industrial complex. The only ventilation into the shop is through the garage door and the front door and they were sealed up tight, when he was working late on Monday evening. Inside he was using a propane powered forklift. It was spewing out exhaust laced with carbon monoxide. He called his wife Helen to say he was not feeling well. She came over, the two of them passed out, they believe around 9 pm, miraculously woke up again around 2:30 to make the 911 call.

(Voice over): It was four minutes into that call before Bob could finally give Condon an exact address.


CONDON: Sir, where are you?

BOB ROY: Who is it?

CONDON: Where are you?

BOB ROY: I need a blanket.

CONDON: Sir, tell me where you are.

BOB ROY: Hello.

CONDON: Sir, where are you?

BOB ROY: 1-0 -- who's this?

CONDON: It's Carol. Where are you?

BOB ROY: I'm at 101 Clematis Ave.

CONDON: Your at 101 Clematis Ave?



CONDON: We said, thank God!

HUNTINGTON (on camera): That's the crucial bit of information, isn't it?

CONDON: Correct.

HUNTINGTON (voice over): Within minutes Bob and Helen were headed for the hospital, where they were treated for carbon monoxide poisoning. Helen was released Wednesday afternoon. Bob not until Thursday afternoon.

BOB ROY: It's like being drunk. You're not really sure what you're doing, what decision you're making.

HUNTINGTON: But it was Condon's cool decision making that made the difference.

CONDON: When they were both being transported into Mass General, then I was almost overcome, because I knew how close they had come to death. So when you get a call like this and it ends up that everyone walked away OK, it's a really good feeling. HUNTINGTON: Chris Huntington, CNN, Waltham, Massachusetts.


COOPER: Man, they were lucky. According to the Centers for Disease Control more than 500 Americans die from carbon monoxide poisoning every year. The symptoms to look our for are headache, dizziness, nausea and confusion, as you heard.

Coming up next on 360, from fibs to whoppers, the irresistible urge to lie. We all do it from time to time. But why do we lie? And do women and men lie differently?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Women are better liars?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I'm sorry, men are better liars.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Women are much better liars than men. Sorry, guys, but it's the truth.


COOPER: What do you think? Our experts on lies are going to answer your questions about all things dishonest. E-mail us at, click on the instant feedback link. Or call us, 877-648- 3639, that's 877-648-3639.


COOPER: There is a new book called, "All Men Are Liars". But it is not just about men, it goes into why men and women lie and they're really not the same things. There is a lot more about lying you might not know.


COOPER (voice over): The reality is we lie everyday. Do we really think all of our bosses ideas are great? Our mother's cooking tastes good? And our friend's girlfriends are hot? No. But we lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they don't look too good, I say, well, you're a good looking gal.

COOPER: According to some experts, men and women like differently.

PROF. BELLA DEPAULO, DEPT. OF PSYCHOLOGY, UCSB: When women are talking to other women, they are just as likely to be telling these kind hearted, altruistic lies. Now men, especially with other men, are more likely to tell the kind of lies that make them look smarter than they are, or more accomplished.

COOPER: There is nothing wrong with that, right? Making ourselves look a little better? But what are the truths we most frequently bend?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes my age, sometimes my height. You know, tiny things. Never anything really big.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Men usually lie about things that would, hmm, like their ego look small.

COOPER: One study suggests that as many as 70 percent of people lie on their resumes. Then, there are those lies about fidelity. Luckily, those don't happen quite as often. One expert study found that just over 20 percent of participants had lied about an affair. Of course, there is the occasional, you look great, honey. Or --




COOPER: Oddly enough we get used to some of it, don't really mind the exaggeration. For comedians like Chris Rock, it clearly makes great material.

CHRIS ROCK, COMEDIAN: Women are the biggest liars! Biggest liars! Look at ya! All of ya! The (INAUDIBLE) lie! The visual lie! Look at ya! You got on heels, you ain't that tall!


You got on make-up, your face don't look like that!

COOPER: So who is better at lying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think women are better liars -- no, I'm sorry, men are better liars.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Women are much better liars than men. Sorry, guys, but it's the truth.

COOPER: OK, so there are some things that women may fib about from time to time, take this scene in "When Harry Met Sally". When Harry learns that women sometimes fake -- well, you know.


COOPER: But isn't that a nice lie. Making someone feel a little bit better about their accomplishments? The real questions is, how do you know if someone is lying? Bella DePaulo has spent her career studying lies and liars.

DEPAULO: There is no behavior that always means that a person is lying and never means anything else.

COOPER: No one action, not even eye contact, or lack thereof. But body language can be revealing.

Stan The-Lie-Guy Walter, says people should look for clusters of evasive behaviors.

STAN WALTER: Negation, you see, anytime the hand going around the eyes, nose, mouth and ears, well aversion is where the body begins to turn and move away from the questioner. I honestly have no idea what happened. I really don't know anything about it. The body just gave you a couple of cues in a cluster.

COOPER: Me, personally, I believe the old saying is true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Honesty is the best policy. I found that out a long time ago.

COOPER: But maybe, just maybe, it is OK to fib from time to time. Although, I never do.


COOPER: Well, the urge to fib or even tell a whopper starts early. Some research has shown that nearly all children tell their first lie by the tender age of two, if you can imagine. Well, the book that got us thinking about all of this is, "All Men Are Liars". Jeff Rodengen wrote it and he joins us now from Orlando, and here with me in the studio, Bruce Weinstein, you might know him as the Ethics Guy. He is an ethicist and the author of "Life Principles: Feeling Good By Doing Good".

Good to see both of you.

Let me start off, Jeff, with you. Where did the title of the book come from? I mean, is it really fair? Don't women lie as well?

JEFF RODENGEN, AUTHOR, "ALL MEN ARE LIARS": Well, it's funny. The title went through a kind of metamorphosis. The female staff in my office, I gave them kind of a poll. I thought maybe, "Most Men Are Liars" or "Some Men Are Liars", and they said, no, no, Anderson, "All Men Are Liars".

COOPER: What is the difference in lying patterns, do you think, between men and women?

REDENGEN: Actually, it's a pretty big difference. Men will lie to enhance their reputations, their business and their sex life. Women will lie to themselves a lot and they'll lie more often to other women, than to other men.

COOPER: Bruce, you don't agree that all men are liars?

BRUCE WEINSTEIN, THE ETHICS GUY: Well, it can't possibly be true. The author is a man, so therefore he's a liar, so therefore we can't believe anything in the book. It doesn't make sense.

COOPER: Is there a difference though, between being a liar and lying?

WEINSTEIN: Yes, when we make a habit of lying then we're a liar. But, you know, if we lie from time to time, that doesn't necessarily brand us as a liar. But at the end of the day, Anderson, all we have is our integrity. So, people count on us, not just news organizations, but people in general, to tell the truth most of the time.

COOPER: Jeff, do women ever enable men to lie by believing or pretending to believe the lies?

RODENGEN: Yes, they do. They do enable men to lie. And they also punish men for telling the truth.

COOPER: How so?

RODENGEN: So, they train men to lie. Oh, for example, Honey, I've just made a new meatloaf and maybe it tastes like ground up tennis shoes, but that is the last thing you are going to tell her when she's in a bad mood.

COOPER: What do people lie most about?

RODENGEN: Men lie about sex a lot? They will lie to, of course, get sex. But they'll lie that they've had more sexual partners than they have. Women on the contrary, will lie that they've had less sexual partners. There is a big difference there.

COOPER: And Bruce, I mean, some lies are OK?

WEINSTEIN: Well, some lies are OK, but there are two different questions here. First, do we lie? That is what this author is talking about. Then the question, should we lie? That's what an ethicist like me would talk about. And very few circumstances justify lying.

COOPER: Really?

WEINSTEIN: Because at the end of the day, all we have is our integrity, our trustworthiness, and people depend on us to tell us the truth --

COOPER: But if someone say, Look, you know, do you like my cooking? What's the point of telling them that it tastes horrible?

WEINSTEIN: Well, the question there is do they really want to know the truth? Or do they want what Oprah might call, validation? And if they just want to be validated then we might not necessarily owe them the full naked, raw, unvarnished truth that might, as you say, hurt their feelings.

COOPER: But if fib, you're saying, you shouldn't even fib in that case?

WEINSTEIN: No, because what does it do to us? What does it do to our integrity when we make it a habit of telling lies?

COOPER: There's a lot to talk about on this, we're going to talk about it just after the break. We're also taking your calls and your e-mails. You can send us and e-mail at, click on the instant feedback link. Also call us at 877-648-3639. We'll be right back.


COOPER: We were talking about lying in America and there is plenty of it. With us, Jeff Rodengen, the author of "All Men Are Liars"; and Bruce Weinstein, The Ethics Guy, and the author of "Life Principles: Feeling Good by Doing Good".

Got a lot of calls and a lot of e-mails, as you can imagine. Our first caller is Jacqueline in Connecticut.

Good evening Jacqueline. What's your question?

CALLER: Hi, I have a comment actually.


CALLER: I think that people should tell the truth whenever they can, because first of all it is easier and you don't have to explain later when you're caught in lie. And I think that people generally don't consider this as an option, when they really do have this. And then people will believe you, because they'll know that you tell the truth.

COOPER: Bruce, she brings up a good point. It is ultimately easier just to tell the truth. I tend to sort of think, oh, it's -- you know, I'm going to be hurting people's feelings. And but, if you just come flat out and say it.

WEINSTEIN: In the long run, when we take the high road, when we do the right thing, it is not only the ethical thing and it benefits us, and as Jacqueline was saying, it is easier for us to do the right thing. So, it really is a win-win situation.

COOPER: Jeff, do you find, though, a lot of men try to sort of avoid confrontation and think that they're going to avoid it by lying?

RODENGEN: Oh, absolutely. But one thing everyone should remember that he last chapter in the book is called, "There is Hope". And the key is if you're going to lie, please admit that lie sometime, so that you can have some redemption.

COOPER: Redemption is a good thing. Maril in New York has a question, joins us on the phone. Maril, good evening. What's your question?

CALLER: Yes, good evening. My question is about, you know, people when -- if you think its wrong like if a person is very ugly, that you say, Oh, you're pretty. Or you're decent person. Otherwise -- I mean --

COOPER: Right. You're trying to spare their feelings and are you -- I mean, is that --

WEINSTEIN: The question is how long you want to remain married to this person, I suppose? (LAUGHTER)

WEINSTEIN: Because who make it a habit of telling the blunt raw truth tend to be divorced people and have former relationships.

COOPER: Is that really true?

WEINSTEIN: Well, I mean, who would want to deal with someone who is so bluntly honest that it hurts the person's feelings.


COOPER: Right. So, what do you do in that case? I mean, you're the ethicist, would you?

WEINSTEIN: Well, the question -- I mean, if somebody is going to say, do you think I'm pretty? Do they really want to know the truth or do they just want to feel better about themselves? And isn't there something honest that you can say to them that would be truthful, but also flattering to them.

COOPER: You can't just say, oh, yeah, you have beautiful hair. OR, I mean, that--

WEINSTEIN: Why not? You have beautiful eyes. You have nice hair. Why do you have to --

COOPER: Well, thank you, Bruce, but --

WEINSTEIN: Exactly what's on your mind? That is not what being honest requires.

COOPER: Jeff, what's your take on that?

RODENGEN: Well, the truth can be devastating sometimes. Sometimes quotable exaggerator like Donald Trump, for example, is kind of endearing, because people expect him to exaggerate the obvious.

COOPER: You call him a quotable exaggerator? Not just a flat out liar?

WEINSTEIN: I'm not sure Donald Trump would be the icon of ethical (INAUDIBLE) in our culture, but that for another debate I suppose.

COOPER: Joan in Wyoming joins us on the line. Joan, good evening. What's your question?

CALLER: Actually, I have two comments. The first one is that I think Anderson Cooper should have been first on that list. And that's no lie.


CALLER: And the second one is I think that we both lie the same.

COOPER: Men and women, you're saying?

CALLER: Yes, yes. But there is a group of people that lie the most, it is the government. Both in D.C., and here in Wyoming.

COOPER: Well, do you think men and women lie the same, Bruce?

WEINSTEIN: No, I want to address her question about people in politics lying, because you know a few rotten apples do spoil it for honest politicians like Charles Schumer and Barbara Boxer and it is unfortunate that -- you know, a few politicians get caught in a lie and it makes everyone look bad. And that is the unfortunate thing about lying.

COOPER: Well, you're also showing off your politics a little bit there.

WEINSTEIN: Well, no -- I could have mentioned a few others.

COOPER: Uh-huh, yeah. All right.


COOPER: Jeff, what about that? I mean, do -- I mean, no one really -- do you think people trust the government anymore? I guess there has always been mistrust of the government?

RODENGEN: Well, sometimes the government has to obfuscate the truth, there is no doubt about it. Sometimes, for the public's own good. But in the case of Bill Clinton, for example, and the Monica Lewinsky scandal. He really didn't need to lie, but he did.

COOPER: But you know, a lot of politicians will tell you, compromise is what politics is all about. And where is the line between compromise and ultimately lying?

WEINSTEIN: Well, you know, talking about politics. When former President Clinton said, I did not have sexual relations with that women. If he had just been honest and said, you caught me! I did it. There would have been -- no, this would have been blown over in a week or two and it would have been --

COOPER: As we all know, it is often the cover up of the crime, not the crime itself.

WEINSTEIN: That's what Americans hate. That's right. It's not so much the lie, it's the attempt to stonewall and cover up. Americans have a great capacity for being tolerant.

COOPER: And also forgiving. I'm a big believer, especially after Katrina. You know, you kind of wish politicians -- any politicians -- none of them have done it. Would just stand up and say, you know what, this is what I did wrong. This was my mistake and I'm sorry about it. I think people would be very forgiving. As of yet, no one has done that. We've got another call. Patricia in Tennessee. Patricia?

CALLER: Yes, hi. I work in retail. And I wonder is it OK to lie to the customers just to get them to buy the product?

WEINSTEIN: Absolutely not, because in the short run you might get profits but in the long run, you damage the company's image, you damage your own integrity and you hurt the customer.

COOPER: Jeff, final thought?

RODENGEN: Bruce is right. But men lie for the high. It's like, interpersonal bungi jumping. It is the gamble. It's the thrill of it all.

COOPER: Jeff Rodengen, good to have you on the program. Bruce Weinstein as well.

RODENGEN: Thank you.

WEINSTEIN: Thank you.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

Coming up next, more of 360. Stay with us.


COOPER: Tomorrow on 360, an inside look at a polygamous sect in the Midwest. That's it for 360. Larry King is next.


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