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American Morning

Evidence of Torture; FEMA: No More Money; Grandmothers Against the War; "Goodnight Moon" Controversy

Aired November 17, 2005 - 09:34   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk about the war in Iraq. Government investigating some potentially explosive accusations, claims that more than 160 Iraqi prisoners were tortured by fellow Iraqis. Officials have been talking to reporters about this in Baghdad this morning. Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is there.
Nic, good morning.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Well, the interior minister addressed journalists for well over an hour, and for a lot of that time he appeared very defensive. In fact, he said that he didn't really want to come out and hold a press conference about this detention facility, about the claims of torture there. He said he was pressured into it by people inside the ministry. He said, categorically, his officers upheld and respected human rights, and he denied accusations that this detention facility was taking in and abusing and beating many Sunni Muslims. There were big fears about that in Baghdad at the moment. He denied those rumors.

But he seemed to contest the figures. We heard this afternoon for the U.S. military, who took control of the detention facility, that there were 169 detainees there. The interior minister today denied there were so many people there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAYAN JABR, IRAQI INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): While Colonel Hort (ph) was inside, he saw only seven tortured people there. Talks about 170 tortured detainees is just a lie. Seven detainees arrived recently to the bunker. The others were there from the beginning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Well, the Iraqi government does have an investigation going and so does the U.S. military. It is, of course, being watched very closely by people here -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Back here, too, some of those pictures of the alleged victims, really horrible to see.

Nic Robertson for us in Baghdad this morning. Nic, thank you -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, FEMA has yet another public- relations issue to deal with. Just the other day we told you how they were kicking people out of hotel rooms by December 1st. In many cases, people have no place to go.

Today we learned they may not pay on all of those flood-insurance claims that are certainly backlogged. Waterlogged, if you will. This is, of course, New Orleans and the wake of Hurricane Katrina. Lots of claims associated with each and every one of those homes, or certainly the ones that had federally backed flood insurance.

Congressman Bobby Jindal represents a good portion of New Orleans and southeastern Louisiana. He joins us now from Washington.

Congressman Jindal, good to have you back on the program.

REP. BOBBY JINDAL (R), NEW ORLEANS: Good morning. Great to be with you this morning.

M. O'BRIEN: Now what FEMA is saying is that Congress just needs to essentially write them a check. Is it as simple as that?

JINDAL: Well, you know, what's frustrating about this delay are two things. One, they've got over $30 billion, maybe even more than that, that they haven't spent. And what's frustrating is there's such strong support on the Hill for this program. You're talking about homeowners that have paid their premium, they've lost, in many cases, everything and the response from FEMA in today's newspapers was just unacceptable. They said, well, we hope it doesn't delay them more than a few days. Well, that's not acceptable. You have families that -- you've seen them firsthand -- that want to rebuild. They've filed their insurance claims. They've been told they they're going to get paid. Now all of a sudden, they're being told, well, wait a minute, we might not be able to process your claims.

Just yesterday, Congress unanimously, and the House, unanimously approved giving over $3.5 million in loan authority.

Now let's be clear, this isn't taxpayer money; we're talked about premium-financed payments. We're talking about people who've paid for their insurance. They now have a claim. Now they're not being paid. So there's a lot of frustration on the ground.

M. O'BRIEN: I'm not getting at. You say they've got $30 billion, you say?

JINDAL: They've got over $30 billion.

M. O'BRIEN: So where's that money going?

JINDAL: Well, you know, and again, it's like dealing with a large bureaucracy. It's like you've got $30 billion in one pocket. They're saying, well, they can't put their hands in that pocket, and it continues to be the bureaucratic red tape. We've seen this from the first days when we've said, you know, we need somebody who can cut through the rules and just apply a little bit of a common sense, and say if we've got $30 billion of unspent money, we know we're not running out of money. Congress, every time they've asked for borrowing authority, has given them unanimous approval, and you know how hard it is to get a unanimous vote in this place. They've got unanimous approval every time they've asked.

They should have done one of two things. They should have either asked earlier. If they say they were running out of money, they should have said, we need permission to tap this money? Or they should have used some of that unspent money, and then come back us to and said, all right now that we've used this unspent money, give us permission to do that.

Unfortunately, by sticking to bureaucracy and rules, what they've done is they've told families that have lost everything, you're going to have to wait a little bit longer, and for a lot of families, they're trying to make decisions about whether they can rebuild, whether they can start these repairs, whether they can move a little bit closer to normalcy.

M. O'BRIEN: It seems like the only deadline they're going to meet is kicking those people out of the hotel rooms.

Congressman Jindal, we have -- really, if you just change a few of the facts, it seems like we've done this interview about six times now. And I'm getting kind of frustrated over it. You must be extremely frustrated. Your constituents must be just seeing red at this point.

JINDAL: Well, I was a little in the district the last several days, and you've got people worried at whether checks are going to bounce, whether they can pay contractors, whether they can move on with their lives. It is extremely frustrating.

I'm glad their president has appointed -- we had asked, you remember early on, to appoint someone at a senior level to cut through the red tape. He's appointed Mr. Powell. I met him for the first time yesterday. I told him in person. I hope he's got the authority and the access to the president to cut through some of this bureaucracy, to make sure people on the ground get the help they need.

I don't know how in the world anybody from FEMA can explain to people on the ground, they've got tens of billions of dollars they have not spent yet, and yet they're telling people they can't cash those checks yet, they can't process those claims yet.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's make crystal clear for folks. We're talking about people who entered into a contract, paid their money. These are people who have paid their premiums over the years. They are violating a contract, aren't they? Isn't that illegal?

JINDAL: Not only that, but there's absolutely no -- it's a certainty that this money will be there. I mean, again, 100 percent of the Congress, every time they've asked us for permission to pay these claims, they've got 100 percent of the vote of Congress.

So not only is it that have people have paid the claims, people have paid their premiums, they've got legitimate claims, they've got claims that are being processed by insurance adjusters. But Congress has not only appropriated tens of billions of dollars that haven't been spent, but every other time they've come to us, they've got 100 percent.

There hasn't been one member of Congress that stood up and said, no, don't do this. So this wasn't even controversial. There wasn't even any -- there wasn't even a one percent chance anybody on the Hill was going say don't pay these claims. This, to me, should be the easiest thing to resolve.

You know, there are a lot of tough issues in rebuilding Louisiana and the Gulf Coast. This should not be one of them. We've got a lot of legitimate obstacles. It seems to me we don't need the bureaucracy at the federal or state levels creating additional obstacles. It doesn't help.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. It's death by a thousand bureaucrats, or something. Congressman Bobby Jindal, always a pleasure. Thanks for dropping by. And keep us posted on your efforts there -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: About 20 minutes before the hour.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, they are grannies and they've got a cause. And they say they're not afraid to go to jail over it. Got a story of these outraged grandmothers, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Anti-war protesters taking to the streets in New York City. That's not really much of a surprise. They were then charged with disorderly conduct and hauled off to jail. That's not much of a surprise, either. What might surprise you, though, is the average age of the group, somewhere about 80 years old. Here's the grandmas' story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWD (singing): God help America. We need you bad. Because our leaders are cheaters...

S. O'BRIEN (voice-over): At first, they sound like your run-of- the-mill anti-war protesters, but look and listen more closely.

MARIE RUNYON, ANTI-WAR ACTIVIST: Get them home! Bring the guys home! We no right over there, no business. We got plenty to take care of right here.

S. O'BRIEN (on camera): Now, Marie, how old are you?

RUNYON: Ninety and a half.

S. O'BRIEN (voice-over): At age 90 and a half, Marie Runyon, one of 18 grandmothers arrested on disorderly conduct charges on October 17th.

CROWD (singing): We're here to stop the war machine, don't get in our way.

S. O'BRIEN: They were protesting the Iraq war by trying to enlist, then sitting down in front of a recruitment office in Times Square and refusing to leave. And they were out again on Tuesday, turning their arraignment into a rally.

CROWD: Bring young men and women to their homes and families now. Now! Now!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: Joan Wile is one of those arrested. She joins us in the studio this morning. And she's with Grandmothers Against the War. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming into talk to us. And I should say, nice to see you not in cuffs. Because for a while, you were -- you spent a couple of hours in jail, right?

JOAN WILE, GRANDMOTHERS AGAINST THE WAR: About four.

S. O'BRIEN: Let's go back to the protest originally. You were trying to enlist. But you're 74 years old. You know you're not going to get in. What was really the goal of the protest?

WILE: We wanted to focus attention on the issue of the war, how awful it is, how many of our young kids are dying, how many Iraqis are dying. We are totally opposed to the war and we are willing to do anything to try to stop it.

S. O'BRIEN: You blocked the recruitment center that's right in Times Square in New York.

WILE: Well no, we don't think so. I mean, we sat down in front of it. I don't know that we blocked it, really.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, wasn't that kind of the point of the protest? I mean...

WILE: In a way.

S. O'BRIEN: I guess you have to say you're not trying to block it, because this has now all gone to court.

WILE: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: I mean, this is really, at the end of the day, the argument. You were handcuffed and placed under arrest and told to get on the ground.

WILE: No, we were on the ground and we were told to get up, which was rather difficult to do.

S. O'BRIEN: Because you had handcuffs on or because you're 74?

WILE: Because I'm 74 and some of them are older and we have artificial hips and all kind of things. So the police helped us up, actually, and then they handcuffed us.

S. O'BRIEN: How were -- how was the treatment with the police? Respectful?

WILE: Wonderful.

S. O'BRIEN: Really?

WILE: Very, very good. We were very pleased.

S. O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of what the goal has been. I mean, to a large degree, you could go to prison. Because you're facing disorderly conduct charges, all 18 of you. I mean, this is a serious charge.

WILE: Right. Well, we don't think that we were disorderly. We thought we were exercising our constitutional right to have a peaceful, non-violent protest. That's how we see it.

S. O'BRIEN: The judge said, listen, if you promise not to protest for the next six months, or not to get arrested for the next hours, then hey, we'll dismiss this whole thing. Why not take that offer?

WILE: Because that's kind of a tacit admission of guilt, and we don't feel that we're guilty. It's as good as saying, yes, I did that, so now I'm going to be a good girl and I won't do it again.

S. O'BRIEN: Is that the message, that you're not going to be a good girl and you're not going to...

WILE: No, no. It's just that we don't feel that we did anything wrong and -- so why should we agree to something that indicates we are guilty? That's how we see it.

S. O'BRIEN: You are a grandmother how many times over?

WILE: I have five grandchildren.

S. O'BRIEN: You brought some pictures of them. Can I see the pictures of your grandkids?

WILE: Yes. These are four of them. Where do I point them?

S. O'BRIEN: Just hold it right up there. They're all very cute and they're very young. Anybody...

WILE: They're a little older now.

S. O'BRIEN: Do you have any grandchildren who are serving overseas?

WILE: No. And that's kind of one of our points. I don't think any of us have grandchildren in Iraq, but we really are representing all grandmothers and all grandchildren. It's not a sort of selfish thing that we're concerned about our own.

I started a group called Grandmothers Against the War. We have a weekly vigil. The reason I did it is because I started seeing pictures of Iraqi children that were horribly wounded from our bombs and I started seeing the death toll of our American military kids going up and up and up, and my heart broke. It just broke and I figured I had to do something.

S. O'BRIEN: There are critics who will say by your protest you send a message to the troops who are that there that you don't support them? Is that true?

WILE: I don't feel that way at all. I feel that we're doing the very best thing to support them, which is try to get them out of there. Get them home to their families. I can't see that at all.

S. O'BRIEN: You have a court date. Are you willing to go to prison for this?

WILE: I don't want to, but I'm prepared to do it if I have to. It's a small price to pay considering what the young people are going through in Iraq.

S. O'BRIEN: Joan Wile, Grandmothers Against the War. Thanks for talking with us this morning. Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: A little bit of breaking news in for you. That Amber Alert we've been telling you about is over. 17-year-old Dialys Ramos apparently safe and sound. Authorities telling us that her apparent captor, the suspect by the name of Robert Laird has shot himself. But just to underscore the point, the target of the Amber Alert, Dialys Ramos, 17 years old from Hialeah, Florida, is fine and that Amber Alert is over. Keeping you posted on that.

And in just a moment we'll "Mind Your Business," all of our business. Andy Serwer is here with that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Good night house. Good night little mouse. And goodnight man holding the cigarette over there. Andy Serwer is here with the full panoply of business news, really, when you think about it.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: I am thinking about it.

M. O'BRIEN: You're beyond eclectic.

SERWER:: Yes. Let's get very eclectic and go down to Wall Street and check out the big board where stocks are trading this hour and the Dow Jones Industrial is up 10 points and the Nasdaq up even a little bit more. Tech stocks kind of hot. Housing starts were slipping a little bit in October. It doesn't seem to bother traders at this hour. What we were blabbering on about --

M. O'BRIEN: Talk about yourself.

SERWER: I wasn't doing much of the blabbering.

M. O'BRIEN: It's poetry day here.

SERWER: We're talking about the children's classic book "Goodnight Moon." This is a book that everybody knows. It's still number today 78 on Amazon's list. Ahead of "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren.

That's how popular it is -- 60 years old. Here's the controversy, though. The illustrator is a gentleman named Clement Hurd and his picture along with the author, Margaret Wise Brown, is on the back. This picture's been there for years. This guy had a cigarette in his hand. Okay? The recent addition they have airbrushed the cigarette away. Gotten rid of it. There's the then and there's the now. He looks kind of funny now. Who holds their hands that way except if they got a cigarette?

This gentleman Clement Hurd passed away at 80 years old, in 1988, so they had to get permission from his estate, i.e., his son. His son was sort of reluctant and now he says he was pressured into it. It's very politically correct. The Soviet Union used to airbrush things off of pictures.

S. O'BRIEN: I could say see why you wouldn't want the guy smoking on the back of the children's book. Why not just frame the photo differently? Why not just take a head shot of the guy and that way you don't have to do the trickery of airbrushing the cigarette out.

SERWER: Or find another picture of him.

That's right. You could do that. There's I story of the New York Times if you want to read the whole shebang. And it's just interesting. It's a sign of the times, I guess. And politically correctness run amok maybe, but it's interesting. It is a great book. We'll just leave it at that.

There's something about it that's just charming.

S. O'BRIEN: That's true.

M. O'BRIEN: Good night, mush.

SERWER: Good night anchors. Good morning.

S. O'BRIEN: We're back,

M. O'BRIEN: We'll rush.

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