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NANCY GRACE

Smith Found Guilty of Kidnap, Murder of Carlie Brucia; Police Find 54 Guns in David Ludwig`s Home

Aired November 17, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of Florida, Joseph Smith guilty, guilty in the kidnap, the rape, the murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia. Next decision phase, will Smith get the Florida death penalty after being caught on tape leading 11-year-old Carlie to her death. Why did Carlie go with him?
And tonight, breaking news in Iowa, one down, one to go. Escaped killer Martin Moon on the run two full days collared by police. Police still on a manhunt for the second inmate. He is at large.

And tonight, the 18-year-old accused of killing the mother and father of his 14-year-old girlfriend, evidence reveals tonight a stash of 54 guns at the suspect`s home -- automatic, semiautomatic, machine guns, even a collapsible gun mount, to man (ph), assault rifles. Incredible.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Breaking news -- one down, one to go. Authorities capture Martin Moon, a convicted killed who escaped the Iowa state maximum security penitentiary, his partner in crime a lifer, Robert Legendre, still on the outside tonight. Why? Budget cuts, cuts that left a prison guard tower unmanned.

And tonight, to Pennsylvania, an arsenal in the home of accused killer David Ludwig, arrested for the double murder of his 14-year-old girlfriend`s parents.

But first, breaking news out of a Florida courtroom. It is guilty! Joseph Smith guilty, kidnap, assault, murder of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia, the girl he kidnapped from a Florida car wash, all caught on this surveillance video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is guilty of murder in the first degree.

The defendant is guilty of sexual battery.

-- guilty of...

-- guilty of...

-- guilty if kidnapping.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Juror number 49, is this your verdict?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Your Honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Juror number 66, is this your verdict?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Your Honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Juror number 79, is this your verdict?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This court stands adjourned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I saw the verdict as it came down live today in that Florida courtroom, Smith brought in from a side door, covered in paneling so the jury would never know he was incarcerated, no handcuffs, no lead shackles, no orange or prison blues, dressed immaculately perfectly groomed. But there was no doubt this jury believed he is a monster. Little did they know of his long, long arrest record.

Straight to CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti. Susan, tell us what went down today.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, as you said it, guilty, guilty, guilty -- guilty of kidnapping, guilty of rape, guilty of strangling little 11-year-old Carlie Brucia. And as you saw, as the verdict was read in court. Joseph Smith in his business suit, as has been throughout, sat there stoically. The parents of Carlie Brucia are divorced, have been for a long time. Her mother broke down in tears, and her father, Joey Brucia, he smiled slightly and he nodded as that jury was read. He was clearly satisfied, both of them were, with this verdict.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is guilty of murder in the first degree as charged.

SUSAN SCHORPEN, CARLIE BRUCIA`S MOTHER: The fact I can never hold her again and I can never speak to her again...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is guilty of sexual battery upon a child less than 12 years of age as charged.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My heart goes out to Carlie. My heart goes out to the family!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant is guilty of kidnapping with inflictions of bodily harm and/or commission of (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good verdict. Thank you.

SCHORPEN: I lost one of the most precious things to me in my life because of an animal, a disgusting, perverted animal. I am so broken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was Carlie`s mother. She came out in front of the courthouse immediately after the verdict, crushed. She pointed out that this guy, Joseph Smith, will stay on death row, if he gets the death penalty, and go through appeals longer than her daughter lived on the face of the earth.

Joining us right now, a very special guest. Joseph Brucia shall is with us. This is Carlie`s father. Mr. Brucia, Thank you for being with us.

JOSEPH BRUCIA, CARLIE`S FATHER: Yes. You`re welcome. Obviously, this is a difficult time, but -- go ahead.

GRACE: Mr. Brucia, I spoke to you earlier today, and you were telling me the moment you learned Carlie was missing. Will you tell us again?

BRUCIA: Well, obviously, I didn`t know exactly what was going on, and when I got the call, I just heard she was missing from her mother. And I just went home directly from a friend`s home and I waited to hear what developed.

GRACE: I recall it was the night of the Super Bowl. You were in New York, correct?

BRUCIA: That`s correct.

GRACE: What was your initial thought? Did you believe she would be home later that night? What did you think?

BRUCIA: I really didn`t know what to think. You know, you -- a lot of thoughts went through your mind, but you know, you just have to wait and try and find out and hope for the best.

GRACE: Sir, how defeated, how disappointed did you feel when you learned about Joe Smith`s criminal history?

BRUCIA: Well, I thought that it was a complete failure of the criminal justice system that they allowed this individual to be on street. I mean, he proved time and time again he was not worthy of benefit like probation. I mean, that should be a privilege. He abused it. And -- but he was not treated as such.

Eight days after being released from prison, he was caught with a large quantity of cocaine in a parking lot. And they simply gave him drug offender probation, which is semantics. It`s basically a system that was not doing their job. He could have done five years in prison, and he would never have put his hands on my daughter. But they just seem to have this policy of letting these guys out time and time again and giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over again. And it backfires over and over again. If you look at most of the cases, these individuals have had many priors. And it`s a progressive thing. You know, they do these crimes, and the crimes get worse, the matter of degrees, and eventually, something like this happens.

And I think that these people, they`re responsible and they`re supposed to manage the safety of the public, and they should be aware of this. And they`re supposed to be able to identify these people and...

GRACE: Well Mr. Brucia, something interesting. You mentioned his many, many drug arrests. In our society -- and sometimes, I agree, drug addicts need help. But this guy, Joseph Smith, had more than just drug arrests. He had several attacks, all on women. One he tried to lure out in public, pulling her by the arm, much the way did he Carlie. And when this grown woman resisted, he beat her in the face with a motorcycle helmet. breaking her nose. There was another episode where a jury acquitted him trying to make off with another woman. And then he approached yet another woman in a public spot.

BRUCIA: Exactly. So I mean, they were ignoring the facts. I mean, if they looked at the entire picture, any competent individual that`s on the bench and is a public servant should have been able to identify this man as a clear and present danger to the public, and it should have been obvious. I mean, it`s obvious to everyone else after they saw his criminal record that everyone was outraged that he was out on the street. What I want to know is, why weren`t the judges outraged?

GRACE: And you know, I want to go to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. Everyone, with us by phone tonight is Carlie`s father, speaking out following the guilty verdict on this man, Joseph Smith, for the kidnap, rape and murder of his little 11-year-old girl, Carlie.

Pat Brown, I want to talk to you about what Carlie`s father is saying. I only know about it anecdotally from watching, and in one case after the next after the next, here`s a guy with a drug problem, and believe you me, everybody, we are headed into a bifurcated trial situation, which means one jury hears two different trials. Now the guilt-innocence phase, November 28, the jury, the same jury, will proceed with sentencing phase, hearing aggravation and mitigation in this death penalty case.

To Pat Brown -- not just drugs, not just cocaine, not just heroin, but attacks on women, the MO same every time.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right, Nancy. I think -- what really frustrates me is there`s a great difference between doing something to yourself, which you can do when you`re a drug user, or doing something to someone else. When you cross that line to hurt other people, that is no longer some kind of mistake or some kind of emotional problem you have. That is a horrible, horrible crime, and you are dangerous to society. And why we don`t get this through our head, when somebody bashes some women`s face in, put him away. I mean, there`s just no question about it, but yet we keep saying, Well, give him another chance. To do what?

GRACE: And to psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. Bethany, it`s not just on him. It`s on every prosecutor that took a cheap plea instead of taking a case to trial, instead of having the backbone to take a case to trial, to take it cheaply, every judge that allowed a cheap plea, just swallowing, as a prosecutor spoon fed one lenient deal after the next.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: And you know, Nancy, they know the facts. There was a really important study done on incarcerated sex offenders. This was the polygraph exam, where these guys had to tell the truth. And what it really revealed was that sex offenders on average commit sex crimes for 16 years prior to their first conviction, arrest and incarceration. That`s frightening. Everybody needs to sit up and pay attention.

GRACE: Take a listen, everyone. With us by phone tonight is Carlie`s father. Here is what Carlie`s mother had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHORPEN: The fact that I can never hold her again and I can never speak to her again -- I mean, I am so broken, you know? And he`s got years when he can eat and he can sleep. And you know, he`s going to get more years on appeals than my daughter had in life. And I`ve got a problem with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury find as follows as to count two of the charges. The defendant is guilty of sexual battery upon a child less than 12 years of age as charged.

We the jury find as follows as to count three of the charges. The defendant is guilty of kidnapping with inflictions of bodily harm and/or commission of (INAUDIBLE) on a child as charged.

SCHORPEN: I lost everything. You know, I`m broken. I don`t know if I`m ever going to fix again. All I can do right now is take whatever opportunities come my way and try and settle my life and try and become a whole person again. Maybe I can help some other people who you know, under tragedy, get stuck in the same predicament I got stuck in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Today Joseph Smith convicted by a jury of 12 in a Florida courtroom for the kidnap, rape and murder of an 11-year-old little girl, the kidnap captured here on video as she came home from a Sunday afternoon sleepover. She had been at her little friend`s house on Saturday night and was on her way home. Her father, her stepfather, just missed her. He had gotten into the car and driven to the little friend`s house, and she had already left to walk home.

In court -- I`ll never forget it -- the prosecutor held up that T- shirt before the jury, and on the back of it was this man`s DNA.

Straight out to Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent. Susan, tell me, what was his reaction as the verdict was read?

CANDIOTTI: He didn`t show any reaction. He listened intently, kind of bowed his head a little bit. But other than that, he hasn`t shown any reaction throughout the course of this trial, except for one time, and that was when he was reported to have dabbed his eye a bit when there was testimony from his mother, who said that, well, she knew that the drugs were affecting him when he said he did what he did to that little girl.

GRACE: To Jonna Spilbor, defense attorney. What about having a client who shows absolutely no affect in the courtroom and doesn`t take the stand?

JONNA SPILBOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sometimes, Nancy, you don`t want them to show any affect in the courtroom. You know that the jury`s going to be looking them over, but what are they supposed to do? You don`t want them to act angry. You don`t want them to cry crocodile tears that aren`t real. Most of the time, you advise your client, Just sit there and shut up.

GRACE: Well, how about real tears, real tears over Carlie Brucia? How about that? Do you have to order that up in your defense manual of trial procedures?

SPILBOR: Monsters don`t cry, Nancy. They don`t cry, unless they feel sorry for themselves. And he`ll start crying in the sentencing phase, when the jury comes back with a death verdict, which is going to happen.

GRACE: Take a listen to what his defense attorney had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your Honor, opposing counsel, members of the jury, we waive closing argument.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Anne Bremer, high-profile Seattle lawyer -- no closing argument?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I know!

GRACE: I asked him to come on and answer some questions, and baby (ph) needed his bubba (ph)! He was afraid to answer questions.

BREMNER: Well, and he`s afraid to give a closing, I guess, too. Hearing those words, "We waive closing," translates to, We give up, raise the white flag. That`s unheard of, Nancy. You know that in cases. You`ve got to give a powerful closing, and the prosecutor goes twice because they have the burden of proof, and they get the last word, at minimum. You should get the second to last word and fight for your client. Unbelievable that they did that.

GRACE: I want to go back to Mr. Brucia, who is now with us again. This is Carlie`s father. November 28, the death penalty phase will start. And I know that you have specifically requested that you not give your opinion on that so as not to taint any of the proceedings, and I respect that. Will you be present?

BRUCIA: Yes, I will. And I would ask your indulgence, Nancy, if I could comment on something?

GRACE: Yes, sir.

BRUCIA: OK. I would like to comment on the intrusion of the media on my family and my personal life and my daughter`s memory. They`re filing to the -- they`re appealing the ruling by Judge Owens (INAUDIBLE) Channel 8, "Tampa Bay Tribune," "Herald Tribune"...

GRACE: You mean the -- on the gag order?

BRUCIA: No, on the fact that the pictures are not to be viewed. They`re pictures that depict my daughter in a naked and decomposing state, and I think it`s grotesque that the media...

GRACE: I think...

BRUCIA: ... (INAUDIBLE) intrusion on my family.

GRACE: ... it is disgusting! You are absolutely correct. Continue.

BRUCIA: And I just would want to make a plea that anyone who listened or can help, we`re trying to contact the attorney general`s office. And I just think it`s obscene that the media would do this. My family suffered enough. We`ve been through enough, and we certainly don`t need this on the Internet, on the television and in the newspapers. It`s just obscene, and I can`t even believe that they`re doing it.

GRACE: Mr. Brucia, what channels exactly are trying to get the photos of Carlie?

BRUCIA: (INAUDIBLE) Channel 6 in Sarasota. It`s "The Herald Tribune." It`s Channel 8 and "The Tampa Tribune."

GRACE: Why? Why would they want that?

BRUCIA: Only they can answer that question, and there is no -- there is no logical answer to that question.

GRACE: Hold on. I want to telecast this again. Channel 6 out of Sarasota. Who else?

BRUCIA: "The Sarasota Herald Tribune."

GRACE: "Sarasota Herald Tribune." Ellie (ph), please write this down, also. OK, who else?

BRUCIA: Channel 8.

GRACE: Channel 8 located where?

BRUCIA: In Tampa.

GRACE: OK.

BRUCIA: And "The Tampa Tribune." They all filed a lawsuit. They filed an appeal in the second direct appellate court. And they`re trying to get these pictures in public view, and I think it`s -- I think it`s just grotesque, what they are doing, and I think it`s horrible. I think it`s -- I think it`s very inappropriate.

GRACE: Well, Mr. Brucia, if it consoles you at all, as long as there is an open investigation or an open case, which goes on until the end of the appeal, there`s a very strong chance this will never happen. But to Channel 6 in Sarasota, to "The Sarasota Herald Tribune," to Channel 8 and "The Tampa Tribune," if this is true, shame on you.

Mr. Brucia, thank you for being with us.

BRUCIA: Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

You know, isn`t that a shame, to hear somebody`s family in the background clapping that he even got to speak? Incredible that they want to publicize this 11-year-old girl`s naked remains.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police beginning to search by helicopter for 40-year-old Leslie Adams, last seen October 21. Police found suspicious evidence at Leslie`s Lilburn, Georgia, apartment. Still no suspects. "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution" reports after Leslie`s sister came on our show, two people stepped up to bat and offered money for information on Leslie, the reward now $25,000. Please, if you can help find Leslie, call 770-513-5356.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TORTARO, DISTRICT ATTORNEY OF LANCASTER COUNTY: We will review the situation. We will determine whether any aggravating circumstances are present that would potentially justify capital punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, very disturbing evidence revealed in the case of the 18-year-old young man, Ludwig, accused of the shooting death of his 14- year-old girlfriend`s father and mother.

Let`s go straight out to Brett Lovelace, reporter with "The Lancaster Intelligencer Journal." What did they find?

BRETT LOVELACE, "LANCASTER INTELLIGENCER JOURNAL": Nancy, the latest today, investigators filed a return on the search warrant that they had served on David Ludwig`s house that he lived in with his parent and two sisters. And the return indicated there was 54 guns.

GRACE: Whew!

LOVELACE: That`s a combination of pistols and hand and rifles were in that home, all of which David had access to.

GRACE: Did you say 54, or am I losing hearing in the other ear?

LOVELACE: It was 54, Nancy.

GRACE: Semi-automatics, automatics, a collapsible mount for a machine gun. Am I correct?

LOVELACE: Yes. There was a combination of semi-automatic handguns, there were some Lugers, there was a Colt 45, there were some high-powered rifles, a wide array.

GRACE: And yet we ask why? We`ll all be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi. Here is your headline prime newsbreak.

A shooting outside a McDonald`s in Tampa has left one person dead and three others wounded. The incident happened across the street from a high school. Witnesses say shots were fired from by a gunman outside a restaurant. The suspected gunman is still on the loose, and the incident might be gang-related.

Some tense moments today at an airport in Atlanta. A small plane had trouble with its landing gear while approaching the runway. The plane then went up, encircled the airport, and retracted the landing gear before making this belly landing, a successful one. Three people on board the plane emerged unharmed.

And at the San Diego zoo, a 15-week-old panda cub took her first steps today. The 10-pound cub (INAUDIBLE). Zoo officials don`t have a date for the youngster`s public debut, although they are encouraged by today`s first step.

How cute. That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERILL SPAHN, DAVID LUDWIG`S ATTORNEY: This remains a continuing investigation. There will be a multitude of witnesses that need be spoken to throughout the course of this investigation. I remind -- would remind everyone that David Ludwig is presumed to be innocent of these allegations, and he will remain such.

We have had the opportunity to discuss this case with Mr. Ludwig, as well as with his family. In speaking with the family, I will indicate the Ludwig family`s concerns go out to the Borden family, their own family, and frankly, everyone who has been touched by this tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, Mr. Defense Attorney, you may want to be concerned with this. It`s a list of 54 weapons. Semi-automatics. Let`s see a picture, Elizabeth. Semiautomatics, automatics, machine guns, .22s, mini .22s, mini Rugers. Yeah. Remington, Stevens, Winchester, Ithaca. Got plenty of 9s in here. Colt, Glock, German Lugar, Sportsman, Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Taurus, Walther. Good lord in heaven. Ammo, fully loaded magazines, fully loaded, complete with a collapsible mount, a military type mount for machine guns.

To Bethany Marshall, do you know after a young person commits a heinous crime, we all go, oh, why? What happened? Well, maybe having 50 - - these guns were not even in cabinets. He went over to that home that day, according to police reports, with a gun in his belt. This is an 18- year-old man, like the wild, wild West, and a duffel bag or pillowcase outside with guns in it, too. Explain. Help me, Bethany.

MARSHALL: Well, Nancy, you`re talking about the 54 firearms in his house. 1.7 children in the U.S. -- children in the U.S. live in households with firearms that are loaded and unlocked.

You add to this the fact, oh, and also, 23 percent of handgun-related homicides are committed by children age 18 and 20.

I think that happened is he was home-schooled. He was not used to laws. He`s a very disturbed young kid. He had not had the experiences of asking someone to the prom, being rejected, these kinds of normal socialization experiences. Loss was simply unthinkable. So he blew the parents away because he felt that loss would blow him away.

GRACE: Pat Brown, criminal profiler. What does it mean that he reportedly -- of course he`s still just a suspect -- shot the girl`s mother with her sitting in a chair, a rocking chair type chair, with a blanket over her legs?

BROWN: First of all, I just have to -- I just have to back up there. I was laughing, because I`m hearing this stuff about home-schooling, and a child growing up in home-schooling has absolutely no clue what the laws are and what loss is, and he has no social skills. It`s absolutely ludicrous. A lot of home-schools have wonderful families, they know all those things, they have great socialization. And that`s just ridiculous.

There are school children who commit these crimes, and there are, as in this case, a home-schooler commits this crime.

But the problem we really have is this child grew up, it wasn`t much of an apple that fell very far from that diseased tree, as we can see. A kid growing up in a house full of 54 guns has learned a lot about not caring about human beings. The fact that they left them open, didn`t care about the son`s access. And that shows a complete lack of judgment and a callousness. And this is my pet peeve, Nancy. It`s about time we charged people who allow other people to use their guns as accessory to murder. And we have never done that in the United States. I do not understand that.

GRACE: I want to go straight out to a police reporter with "The Lancaster Intelligencer Journal," Brett Lovelace.

Brett, what can you tell me about how these guns were kept? We have got two dead bodies, a family with a mother and father ripped away, still young children to be raised. I believe, Ellie, wasn`t one of the little boy is 9?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, correct.

GRACE: And got a 15-year-old sister, and she is 14.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

GRACE: And at this moment, everyone, Kara, the little girl, is perceived to be a victim of this until otherwise proven.

Brett, where were these guns? I want to know where is the collapsible mount for the machine gun? Where was that? On the dining room table?

LOVELACE: Well, Nancy, these guns were first spotted on Sunday when the CERT team, which is kind of the local equivalent of a SWAT team, stormed that house, thinking that maybe David Ludwig had fled back home after committing these murders.

And as they are searching the house, they are coming across all these weapons, just out in plain view. Not in locked cases, not secured in a safe. They are just out there for David or anyone else in the house to come across, take, and leave with. And he was comfortable with that. He had grown up in apparently a culture of guns. He was an avid hunter with his father. It was a hobby. They collected guns. And his father is a commercial airline pilot. But they also played in a brass band together.

But they liked to shoot guns. And this was accessible to him.

GRACE: Look, I`m not saying having a gun is a bad thing. All right? It`s written right there in the Constitution. It is protected by our founding fathers, the right to bear arms. So the government isn`t the only one that has a gun.

But 54 guns? Elizabeth, run that list again for the viewers.

I wish you could see this receipt, this inventory receipt I have got here from the police. It is handwritten. Everything you`re seeing. All this from one home.

I want to go back to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. Bethany, don`t you believe -- I don`t know how to phrase it, I`m just a trial lawyer. For instance, if somebody handed you a machine gun, you would probably very carefully, gingerly lay it down and get away from it.

But when you begin to have familiarity with machine guns, with semiautomatic Glock weapons, with 9 millimeters, with collapsible mounts, it becomes more familiar to you, you`re more likely I would think to stick one in your belt and then use it, as opposed to someone that had not been exposed to it?

MARSHALL: It becomes habitual. It becomes normalized. This 18-year- old, he had the experience of shooting animals, watching them fall lifeless to the ground. He knew what a gun could do. And...

GRACE: But wait a minute, wait a minute, Bethany. You ever walk through the grocery store? Where do you think all that ground beef comes from?

MARSHALL: I`m not debating ground beef. But what I`m saying is that he did get used to all this type of activity. And you know, I have to say, I disagree with Pat Brown about this whole thing about home-schooling and the fact that these children can have normal experiences of loss. It`s not true. High school adolescents, it`s a critical period of development, and children need to have experiences...

GRACE: You mean we all have to get humiliated in high school to be normal?

MARSHALL: Yes. Yes.

GRACE: OK, I`ll remember that.

MARSHALL: Yes, it`s true, because humiliation is a common precursor to homicide. Children need to learn to handle rejection.

GRACE: I want to go to a special guest that is just now joining us by phone. It is Kellymarie Conlon. She is a friend of the Borden family and the best friend of the oldest brother, James. She is joining us from Lititz, Pennsylvania. Kellymarie, thank you for being with us.

KELLYMARIE CONLON, FRIEND OF BORDEN FAMILY: Thank you for having me, Nancy.

GRACE: Kellymarie, tell me how the family is doing?

CONLON: Obviously, it`s a very difficult time for them. They are all shocked and devastated, and still kind of absorbing the entire impact of everything that has occurred. At this point in time, James has related to me that what is really keeping the family together is their faith. You know, Mike and Cathy Borden raised a very religious family. They`re very devout Christians, and James did mention that their strength in the Lord is what has given them strength.

GRACE: Kellymarie, did the two families know each other? Didn`t these two, David Ludwig and Kara Beth Borden, meet at a home-schooling event?

CONLON: You know, to be honest, I can only comment on that in what the media has already put out there, which is that they did meet at a home- schooling event, but at this point in time I can`t answer any specific questions related to that.

GRACE: OK. Kellymarie, where are the children tonight? How many siblings are there?

CONLON: There are five Borden children in all. So there are five orphans of this tragic event.

I can tell you that the family is together tonight in Pennsylvania, and they are supporting each other as best as they can.

GRACE: I know two of the siblings are in their early 20s, like 19 and maybe 20, 21. One of them just coming back from Iraq.

CONLON: Justin -- Justin is 21. He just returned from Baghdad, and James is 24. And he is a graduate student.

GRACE: Oh, how horrific, to come home, finally home, and have this happen.

Now, who is going to take care of the other children? There`s a 9- year-old boy, Kara is 14, the other sister I think is 15?

CONLON: Actually, David, the youngest, is 11. And at this point in time I`m aware that the legal guardian, at least for the moment, has been appointed by the court but to be honest, I can`t really comment on the future whereabouts of the children.

GRACE: Kellymarie, what a nightmare. I`m glad you`re there to help the family be strong.

CONLON: Thank you.

GRACE: Oh, gosh. Before I go to break, to Brett Lovelace, reporter, Brett, had Ludwig made any comments, any disturbing comments to friends or online? I know he was quite the blogger.

LOVELACE: You`re right, Nancy. He was very active on a Web site and blogs. He had recently spoken to friends that he was getting tired of the interference from the Bordens and that he even went as far as saying that he could kill someone, take of and get away with it.

GRACE: OK. Anne Bremner, don`t tell me he`s misled, he had a sheltered childhood, he had an impulse control problem. That statement right there, if it comes into evidence, you know him going to the home with a gun in his belt and a backup gun, a throwdown ...

BREMNER: A throwdown.

GRACE: ... as we call it, that`s going to show premeditation.

BREMNER: Well, I mean, he did take off. That`s true. But he got caught. So the whole statement isn`t true. But, Nancy, the thing is, with these guns, you know, if you don`t block a Colt 45 and German Lugar, guess what? You know, our of 50 some odd guns he had one. And the question in this case ...

GRACE: No, he had more in a duffel bag outside.

BREMNER: Well, but the one in committing the crime.

GRACE: That`s all it took, Anne.

BREMNER: But, Nancy, there`s so much mood music in this case. And it`s like "Natural Born Killers" with Charlie Starkweather and Caril Fugate back in 1958 ...

GRACE: So what does that mean to me? What is it going to mean in a courtroom?

BREMNER: Well, what it`s going to mean in a courtroom is they have to have evidence.

GRACE: Compare it to a movie. Well, you know what?

BREMNER: Compare it to a movie? That was a real crime.

GRACE: There`s a little thing called an eyewitness whose a little girl who saw her father shot to death and went and hid in the bathroom.

BREMNER: Yes, but Nancy, this has got to go to a courtroom and a court of law. And we can`t have public hysteria dictate what happens in the case. We don`t even know what happened from the perspective of his then girlfriend. And I think it`s just something we`ve got to stop in terms of, you know, going after people in the press.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. TOM VILSACK, IOWA: Mr. Moon was apparently in a car which he had stolen which was parked outside of the Menard State Prison in Chester, Illinois. Prison officials during a routine security check noticed the suspicious car and advised the local police department of its whereabouts, and upon investigation Mr. Moon attempted to escape, hit a post, ran from the vehicle and was ultimately apprehended by the Chester, Illinois, police department.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight one down, one to go. Two lifers behind bars in an Iowa state prison, a maximum security facility actually went over the wall with a length of rope and a homemade what was it, Ellie (ph)?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grappling hook.

GRACE: A grappling hook. P.S., they worked in the upholstery division of the jail, got the grappling hook, went over. Guess what? Nobody in the guard tower. Why? Budget cuts. Now I`m sure they had plenty of other people working behind those prison walls but why not a guard?

Now, legislation being discussed on the state floor as to why there`s not security there. Big news tonight, one apprehended, one still loose. Let`s go straight out to Gerry Baksys with the "Fort Madison Daily Democrat." Bring us up to date, Gerry.

GERRY BAKSYS, FORT MADISON DAILY DEMOCRAT: Well, as your promo said, Nancy, Mr. Moon was caught right outside of the Menard prison in Chester, Illinois, only about three or four hours from Fort Madison where he escaped.

Now, the car he was in was not the car stolen in Fort Madison. The car he stole was actually from Paris, Illinois. And so that leads us to speculation that Mr. Moon and Mr. Robert Legendre, his accomplice in the escape, may have split up at that time although there`s no official word on that yet.

GRACE: To Tom Morris, reporter from "America`s Most Wanted," what can you tell us, Tom?

TOM MORRIS, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: being out there, Moon`s caught but Legendre is actually the one that scares me the most. Because he actually tried to kill a total stranger. The fact that Moon is in custody is good, but there`s a new twist to this, and that is that his ex-girlfriend is now also the subject of an intense manhunt.

GRACE: Explain.

MORRIS: he had a girlfriend named Kimberly Anne Mitchell (ph).

GRACE: Oh wait. Is this the young lady who sent him a hacksaw in a flip flop?

MORRIS: And $300.

GRACE: First of all, the flip flop says it all. But the hacksaw -- nice shot, Elizabeth. Is that lingerie? What is that?

MORRIS: These are shots that we got at "America`s Most Wanted." She sent him these photos when he was locked up in the Clark County jail back in 2000.

GRACE: OK, Elizabeth, take that down right now. So he had -- down means not on the screen. Thank you. Thank you. Go ahead.

MORRIS: Kimberly Ann Mitchell had no prior criminal history. But she was Moon`s girlfriend back at the time in 2000 when he was on trial for the murder of Kevin Dixon. She allegedly mailed him some items including the flip flops.

GRACE: Wait a minute. This girl in the push-up bra mailed him a hacksaw in a flip flop?

MORRIS: Yes, she cut the -- she allegedly cut the flip flops open, slipped the blades into it along with $300, glued it back together. And when the deputies at the jail found out that he had been hacking away slowly at the lock on his cell, they didn`t -- unraveled it. And she was arrested in Tennessee.

Now, apparently Moon may have told police today he was headed towards Tennessee. We don`t know where she is. And she has not been seen since she was released on bond five years ago after being charged.

GRACE: OK, I get it, Tom. They are trying to make a love connection. I get it. Joining me right now is Alfreda Dixon (ph). This is the mother of Moon`s victim, Kevin Dixon. Ma`am, thank you for being with us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Miss Dixon, what do you make of Moon`s escape and capture?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, to tell you the truth, I had -- I locked all my windows and my doors and I had the police going by my house every so often checking. Now I can breathe.

GRACE: Well, I hope that the politicians in Iowa heard what the victim`s mother just said. Because they didn`t put a guard in the guard tower this lady is living in fear. Also, to Connie Farlow the mother of Martin Moon who was captured today. Have you spoken with him, ma`am?

CONNIE FARLOW, MARTIN MOON`S MOTHER: No, I have not.

GRACE: Do you expect to?

FARLOW: No, I don`t think I`ll probably be contacted where I can visit with him at all.

GRACE: I know that you`re at least thankful that he was not harmed in his capture.

FARLOW: I am so happy that my son was not harmed when he was captured. He`s not a violent criminal, and I hope that through all this national coverage that we`ll be able to influence, maybe, some lawyers to look into the transcripts of the court files. You know, when he was convicted, because he was only convicted by the testimony of two others that were involved in the crime.

One of them being the boyfriend of the girl that he had a fight with Dickson the night before. And he`s the one that had the motive to do any killing. My son had no reason.

GRACE: I know that you still believe that your son is innocent. Miss Dickson, do you agree or disagree?

DICKSON: I disagree.

GRACE: And so did a jury. With us is Tiffany Koenig, who represented Martin Moon. Tiffany, were you concerned when you learned of Moon`s escape?

TIFFANY KOENIG, REPRESENTED MARTIN MOON: Personally, no. Whenever I met with Mr. Moon, he was always very polite. Very respectful, never had any concerns as far as my safety. So, no, I was not concerned when I heard about this.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Martin Moon`s attorney, Tiffany Koenig. Please stay with us as we remember Army Sergeant Steven Sutherland, 33, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, 16-year-old Amanda Johnson disappeared from Dacula, Georgia, April 2005. If you have info on this girl, Amanda Johnson, call the Gwinnett County police, 770-513-5100, or go online to beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

Very quickly, to defense attorney Jonna Spilbor, what is Moon looking at if he is prosecuted for escape?

SPILBOR: In that jurisdiction, he could be looking at life. Now he`s just put himself in the position where he had something to lose. And now he possibly has nothing to lose, unless he starts turning some evidence and turns in the other guy who they have not found yet.

GRACE: Tiffany Koenig, do you think you`ll represent him on the escape? Do you think he`ll be prosecuted on that?

KOENIG: My guess is he will be prosecuted for the crimes that were committed. I can`t say whether the court would appoint me to represent him or not, but I would certainly be available to do so.

GRACE: And to Gerry Baksys. Gerry, where are they looking for Legendre?

BAKSYS: The director of the Iowa division of criminal investigation actually said today that they have no idea where he is.

GRACE: Not a clue? They can`t get anything out of Moon?

BAKSYS: If they have, they haven`t said it. At a press conference earlier today Eugene Myers said quote, he could be anywhere.

GRACE: Oh, well that`s reassuring. All right. Thanks for that, Gerry. I`ll sleep better tonight.

Everybody, the "Herald Tribune" in Sarasota has called in multiple times saying they don`t want to publish pictures of Carlie Brucia. They just want the pictures of Carlie Brucia half-naked and dead. Remember her father is very disturbed about that. I agree with him.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But again, our biggest thank you`s to you for being with us, inviting all of us and our legal stories into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END

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