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American Morning

Torture in Iraq; War of Words; Two Views of America

Aired November 18, 2005 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Suicide bombers strike with a devastating force in Iraq. You're looking at some pictures there, an attack caught in Baghdad by cameras. Another at a mosque in east Iraq.
All told, more than 60 people are reported dead. That number could rise. We're live with the very latest.

A Democratic congressman with strong ties to the military says bring the troops home now. That sparks a huge debate in Washington. Republicans say he is raising a white flag to terror.

And for the second time this month, protesters upstaging the president on an international mission. A damage report from South Korea on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

If you're waking up on the West Coast, southern California, you might have to contend with some reverberations around some wildfires. Take a look at these pictures coming in, live pictures now from our affiliate KTLA and their helicopter as they capture what's happening near Ventura.

This is in an oil production area. School Canyon, it is called. We are told it's remote.

We don't know of any homes that are threatened by it. But clearly, the oil facilities are at risk here at the very least, and perhaps the fact that there is oil, if there is oil stored there, that could fuel the fire. Though we don't know that.

It's a so-called red flag out there, which means dry conditions and windy. We're watching it.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, absolutely. Of course, these things clearly spread so fast, and especially when you're talking about an oil production facility. Right now they said the fire's front line is about half a mile wide. That could grow.

We're going to monitor it as 70 to 80 firefighters are now on the scene.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, from the West Coast of California, let's move to Iraq, a story we've been following for your all morning, four deadly suicide attacks all across that country.

Let's get right to CNN Senior International Correspondent Nic Robertson for the latest -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Miles, the first of those attacks 12 minutes past 8:00 in the morning. A suicide bomber drove a van full of explosives towards the Al Hamara (ph) hotel, where Western journalists were living, blew a hole in the security perimeter. A second vehicle tried to get through.

Six people were killed, two -- two children, one woman, 40 people injured. The hotel fairly badly damaged.

Also, by noon, two suicide bombers blowing up their explosives in a mosque, killing, according to the local mayor, as many as 75 people, perhaps as many as 20 children among the dead there, 85 miles northeast of Baghdad -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Do you -- tell us about the latest on those abuse and torture claims. This has been a very volatile claim and seems to be fanning the flames, or at least the sentiment which would underpin a civil war. Tell us what's going on with that right now.

ROBERTSON: Miles, when you listen to what politicians have to say about this issue and about people here, it's clear that the torture cases are dividing people. The ministry of -- the Ministry the Interior is backing control of that -- of that complex where the tortures took place. The U.S. is also heading an investigation.

A lot of people here waiting to see the outcome.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice over): No other journalist has taken pictures here. These are the first glimpses of the jail where the Iraqi Interior Ministry admits it tortured detainees.

We came here because the interior minister invited journalists to look around. Iraqi troops guard the gates, where only a few days ago U.S. soldiers arrived to discover more than 160 malnourished prisoners crowded in a bunker. Despite the ministerial invitation, we were politely turned away.

(on camera): The detention facility is within this housing area. During Saddam Hussein's regime it was infamous for torture, and as it was during Saddam Hussein's regime, the concern is now the tortures here may not be an isolated case.

(voice over): And the previous interior minister, a Sunni, goes further, quoting sources he describes as reliable. He says he is 95 percent sure there were killings, as well as torture.

NAQIB AL FALAH, FMR. INTERIOR MINISTER: I cannot confirm 100 percent, but some people have been killed by the torture. When they torture them, they have been -- some of them, they died. ROBERTSON: Speaking out for the first time since the discovery of torture victims at one of his ministry's jails, Iraq's Shia interior minister sought to play down the allegations. He disputed a number of torture victims, defended his officers, and insisted they observed human rights. And, he said, those imprisoned were there for good reason.

BAYAN JABR, IRAQI INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): Those detainees, those criminal killers inside the bunker, were not Indians, nor Pakistanis, nor Iranians. Those were your Arab brothers that came here to kill your sons.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And the differences here coming at a very sensitive time, buildup now under way for the elections in just a few week that will elect government for the next five years -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Nic Robertson in Baghdad. Thank you very much -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, that trouble in Iraq is really a very big backdrop to the big question that's on many Americans' minds: When are the troops going to come home?

Congressman John Murtha, a pro-military Democrat, sparking a political firestorm with his calls for the troops to get out now.

White House Correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president. She's in Busan in South Korea this morning.

Dana, what's the word from the White House now on the congressman's comments?

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Soledad, in keeping with their campaign-style strategy to let no charge on the increasingly unpopular war in Iraq go unanswered, the response was smooth, swift and scathing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice over): No press questions here with Russia's leader. President Bush for now is letting deputies fight the latest skirmish over the Iraq war political debate back home. The gloves-off White House effort is to paint a Democratic calling for troops out of Iraq in six months as out of the mainstream.

"Congressman Murtha is a respected veteran and politician who has a record of supporting a strong America," said the White House press secretary in a blistering statement. "So it is baffling that he is endorsing the policy positions of Michael Moore and the extreme liberal wing of the Democratic Party."

By trying to link John Murtha, a known hawk, to the dovish filmmaker Michael Moore, Bush aides hope to stop Independents and Republicans already skittish about Iraq from following the influential Democrat's lead.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I respectfully disagree with John Murtha.

BASH: White House officials note even outspoken war critics in Murtha's own party think an immediate troop withdrawal wood be dangerous. But the Bush strategy to dismiss Murtha's biting criticism of the president's Iraq policy, like calling him part of the left-wing fringe, may be undermined by past statements like this.

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One of my strongest allies in Congress when I was secretary of defense was Jack Murtha, Democrat who was chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee. We used to be able to do more together on a bipartisan basis than seems possible these days.

BASH: It's that kind of glowing comment in the heat of last year's campaign that makes the Bronze Star double Purple Heart recipient's slam at the vice president on Iraq so stunning.

MURTHA: I like guys who have got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And the debate over troops in Iraq is not just happening in America. Bush officials appear to be caught off guard when the South Korean defense ministry announced while the president is in their country that they're going to put forward a proposal to start withdrawing, at least drawing down, some of their 3,000-plus troops that are serving in Iraq -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: That was a surprise, and it was one of a number of surprises like these protests. Quite dramatic when you look at the videotape from there. Who exactly is protesting? And what are they protesting, exactly, Dana?

BASH: Soledad, some of our colleagues who were there, including Mike Chinoy, say it was about 5,000 anti-globalization protesters, mostly farmers who were out and about. Some of them, a small number of them, did try to break police barricades and tried to sort of get into a fight, if you will, with the police.

But according to our colleagues there, they said the police actually didn't really bite. It wasn't much of a pushback from the police.

But actually, the 5,000 is a much smaller number than what the protesters thought that they would get. They thought they would get, they said, in the tens of thousands, maybe even upwards of 100,000 -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: They were off by a fair amount then.

All right. Dana Bash is traveling with the president. Dana, thank you very much.

There are obviously many other stories making news today. And Kelly has a look at those.

Good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: There are. Good morning again.

And hello, everyone.

We're beginning with a very late night on Capitol Hill. In the wee hours of this morning, the House narrowly passed a bill, trimming about $50 billion from the budget. Critics say most of the cuts are from social programs. Lawmakers from both houses still have to work out the details.

And action in the Senate as well. Senators approving a $60 billion tax cut measure. The House considers its version of that plan today.

U.S. Supreme court nominee Samuel Alito will be making the rounds on Capitol Hill once again this morning. In the next half-hour or so, Alito will meet with Senator Rick Santorum.

Some Democrats have expressed concerns about a 20-year-old document that was recently released -- excuse me -- in which Alito wrote that the United States Constitution does not protect a right to abortion. Alito's confirmation hearings are set for January.

The NFL's outspoken Terrell Owens apparently ready to do some more talking. He wants his job back.

The Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver pleads his case today before an arbitrator. Owens was suspended for four games and later pulled off the team for making rough comments about his coach and teammates. There are reports of a possible settlement in the works. But so far, nothing definite.

Harry Potter's spell could be heating up ticket sales. The fourth film in the series making its debut today. Some fans in Boston catching the midnight viewing. The ticket service Fandango says the film has accounted for more than 90 percent of advance ticket sales this week.

A closer look at the movies opening up this weekend in "AM Pop." That's coming up a bit later here on AMERICAN MORNING.

And we've been showing you these pictures. We're going to show them to you now coming out of southern California. A wildfire burning there right now.

The fire broke out earlier this morning about 60 miles northwest of Los Angeles. The fire believed to have burned about 500 acres. There are now some 20 firefighters on the scene there. No homes appear to be in danger. And we are taking a look at some pictures coming in from our affiliate out there, KABC TV. We've been talking about how close they are to an oil field out there. And it's possible that we're looking right now at the burning of an oil field right now.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, that's not a brushfire.

WALLACE: That's not -- that's not a wildfire.

M. O'BRIEN: That's not a brushfire, yes.

WALLACE: You definitely see the equipment of what could very well be part of the oil field there.

We're obviously going to stay on top of this and keep tabs. There's not a lot of population in this area, and we'll be watching this.

Now Jacqui is in Atlanta for us.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, protests grabbing the headlines in South Korea today. Many people there, though, support President Bush. We're going to take a look at just how the U.S. is being perceived in that country and what exactly is the root of all of the divisions -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: And this might have happened to you. You get bumped from a flight, usually you get, you know, like, a free ticket or mileage or some kind of deal. But we are going meet a guy who, well, they didn't handle it just right. He fought back, he sued, and won some big change.

He'll tell us his story, along with his daughter, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Protests to tell you about today in Busan in South Korea, where President Bush and other Asian leaders are meeting. Do they tell us something more about South Korean perceptions toward the U.S.?

Suzanne Malveaux spoke with a father and a daughter in Busan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As the streets filled with protesters around the APEC summit, the debate over President Bush's visit is playing out in the homes of many Koreans.

Insang Jung and his 24-year-old daughter Suyong live in Busan, about eight miles from the demonstrations. They share a home, a love of yoga, and a passion for politics. But when it comes to the American-Korean relations, they are deeply divided, starting with their feelings about President Bush.

INSANG JUNG, OFFICE CLERK (through translator): I think he shows strong leadership. The world is very divided right now and needed a charismatic leader.

SUYONG JUNG, COLLEGE STUDENT (through translator): I don't know for sure, but inside I don't think he's very truthful.

MALVEAUX: The differences are rooted in their generations.

I. JUNG (through translator): I was born just shortly after the Korean War and am part of the war generation. I believe economically Korea would not be in the position it is in today without the help of the United States.

S. JUNG (through translator): Just because the U.S. helped us during the war doesn't mean we always need to be good to them. We are also a growing country and should not be treated as a subordinate.

MALVEAUX: While Suyong says taking to the streets would be too extreme for her, the college senior says she shares the protesters anger over her government's decision to send South Korean troops to support U.S. mission in Iraq.

S. JUNG (through translator): Of course American soldiers are dying in Iraq and are victims of terror. And the rest of the world must help the U.S. But so many soldiers who don't want to go to Iraq still have to go.

MALVEAUX: Both seem to urge caution in their approach to the United States.

S. JUNG (through translator): We should be thankful, but in current conditions it's not good being extremely anti or pro-American.

I. JUNG (through translator): Like the father-daughter relationship, it doesn't break because of a dispute. That's the situation between the U.S. and Korea.

MALVEAUX (on camera): A sentiment shared by most Koreans who were not protesting, who are invested in the U.S.-Korean relationship.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Busan, South Korea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: In fact, most of today's protesters are formers, and apparently they're fearful that new trade agreements could open South Korean markets to imported rice and other agricultural products.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. Here's a scenario for you. You go up to the airline ticket counter, you present your ticket, and they say, "I'm sorry, sir, we don't have a seat for you."

Do you know your rights? You do have some rights in this case. You're going to meet a man who knew them very well. He's an aviation law attorney. He sued an airline and he won.

A great story coming up. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: All right. We've all been through this before, you are sitting there waiting for a flight, they come on the announcement, "Any volunteers who could take a later flight, perhaps? We're a little bit oversold."

Actually, the truth about the airlines is they frequently oversell because statistically a lot of people don't show up. Sometimes statistics fail them and that means people get bumped.

Well, if they do it by the rules, that's OK. If they don't, that's a problem.

Enter our next guest, aviation attorney Thatcher Stone, who sued Continental Airlines and won, and his daughter Rebecca, who is obviously a character witness for her dad, right?

And it's good to have you both with us.

THATCHER STONE, SUED FOR BEING BUMPED FROM FLIGHT: Thank you very much, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's -- we'll lay out the story. This is Christmas day last year. You show up at the Continental gate. You want to go skiing.

Everybody's excited. Big break from school and all of that. And they say, I'm sorry, Mr. Stone, we don't have a seat for you.

What happened after that?

STONE: Well, what happened after that was we asked for our bags. I knew they couldn't load the bags under the new rules after 9/11.

M. O'BRIEN: Right.

STONE: And I began thinking where will we go instead? So I asked the gate agent to make sure our bags were not loaded.

She said, "I won't call down. Don't worry. Your bags will go where your bags will go."

We were taken to a service center. We were left at the service center.

M. O'BRIEN: She wouldn't even make the call?

STONE: Wouldn't make the call.

M. O'BRIEN: Wow. OK.

STONE: We were taken to a service center. If anybody knows Newark, you know these service centers are at every intersection of the terminal.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes.

STONE: After we were left there for about 10 minutes, we asked the chap in front of us how long he'd been waiting. And when we heard four hours, we decided we'd leave.

So we went on the ground side. We found someone very nice. And after they told us they couldn't get us to Colorado for a week, they refunded our tickets.

Then when we got home we thought about all the expenses we'd incurred, going to a controlled resort and having to book everything in advance.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes.

STONE: And that's where the fun started.

M. O'BRIEN: Oh, I bet it did.

Now, Rebecca, before we get into the legal aspects of this, what was going through your mind at this point? You were obviously excited about your trip with your dad. And you're getting the runaround.

REBECCA STONE, FATHER SUED AIRLINE: Well, I was really upset because this is a tradition that we have every year. We go to the same place.

My dad's fraternity brother lives there. So we see him. So it was a really big bummer.

It's a time that I get to spend time with my dad. And I don't spend time with both of my parents all the time anymore.

M. O'BRIEN: Right. So you're missing out on a frat party for your dad, which is important. No.

T. STONE: Lifelong friendships.

M. O'BRIEN: Lifelong friendships.

So you took it up with Continental and said -- because you're an aviation attorney, you know the rules here. And they were breaking quite a few, because one of the things is they are supposed to always ask for volunteers, right? And they didn't do that, right?

T. STONE: Well, you know, there's a good -- there's a good side and a sad side to this story. The good side of this story is some smart lawyers at Ackerman Centerfit (ph) figured out what to do here and tagged the airline for what they're ultimately responsible for. The sad part of the story is you've got to be a really smart lawyer like those of us at Ackerman Centerfit (ph) to figure out how to weasel through the Supreme Court case and ask for the right relief that we did. M. O'BRIEN: So it wasn't easy to get -- ultimately, you got in excess of $3,000, which was your out-of-pocket cost for all this. It wasn't easy to get that?

T. STONE: It wasn't easy because you really have to know what you're doing.

As you point out, the regulations are quite clear. There are certain things the airline has to do. In fact, most airlines are smart and put this in their contract to carriage.

Continental has it in their contract to carriage. Nothing that they're required to do did they follow in this instance.

M. O'BRIEN: Really?

T. STONE: They're supposed to give you a piece of paper explaining your rights. Now, this is where it becomes important.

If you say you have expenses and they offer you the limit of up to $400...

M. O'BRIEN: Don't take it, right?

T. STONE: If you do, you're...

M. O'BRIEN: That's it.

T. STONE: To use a technical legal term, you're SOL.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes.

T. STONE: So you have then got to be stuck with your $400.

What I tell all my friends and associates is, look, if this happens to you like it happened to me, don't be in a rush. Just go home and figure out, oh, my gosh, you know, did I play for two rounds of golf in advance, did I pay for some trip with a family in advance?

M. O'BRIEN: Start tallying, right?

T. STONE: What were all my unrefunded expenses that were reasonable?

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, because you might do much better in the end.

T. STONE: That's right.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's just get a couple of Continental statements out here before we run out of time.

Number one, "We're sorry when this happens, but the Department of Transportation allows overbooking of flights because so many airline customers book flights and then do not show up without previously canceling."

We all understand that.

It goes on, "If an over-sale occurs, we try to offer alternative flights, refund the ticket, help make other arrangements, or offer some of the denied boarding compensation. But that is not always acceptable to the customer."

It seems like they failed on that last account, quite clearly.

T. STONE: Well, I accept the proposition that it was Christmas week. This is the week that everybody goes away.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes.

T. STONE: What I think the issue with Continental was, they could have avoided all of this and settled for $1,300 when we wrote them a very polite letter and said, gee, you know, you oversold the flight, part of your expenses cover my nonrefundables. Here they are.

And they gave us the international sign of friendship. So that's the sad part of the story.

M. O'BRIEN: Rebecca, what's the moral of this story? What do you think?

R. STONE: I think the moral of the story is probably that if you -- if you pay for something and it's fair, and you get there on time, that people should give you what you paid for.

T. STONE: Sounds fair.

M. O'BRIEN: You know what? That's as simple as it gets. You don't have to be a lawyer to figure that part out.

Happy birthday, Rebecca, by the way.

R. STONE: Thank you.

M. O'BRIEN: It's her 14th birthday today. Did a great job on CNN, and missed a day of school. It couldn't be better than that.

T. STONE: Wonderful gift.

M. O'BRIEN: Thatcher and Rebecca Stone, thanks for being with us. Thanks for telling your story.

R. STONE: Thank you.

M. O'BRIEN: Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, still ahead this morning, you're going to meet a truly amazing woman who is helping children by day and feeding the community by night. We're going to tell you how she manages it all with just her Social Security check. \

Her "Extra Effort" is just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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