Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Sunday
Hostage Situation in Washington State; Religion vs. Medicine; Iraq Bombings
Aired November 20, 2005 - 18:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN (off camera): You are looking at the latest video from a developing story in Tacoma, Washington. A gunman is holding hostages inside the Tacoma Mall. After about three hours ago coming into the mall and opening fire. He shot at least six people. One of them is in critical condition. This is what we heard from reporter Nicole Sanchez, who is on the scene right now.
NICHOLE SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Carol, we're on the south side of the mall. Let me step out for a second so you can see all that police activity going on by the food court, where about 12:15 is where we heard these shots were originally fired. We've got some video. We'll go ahead and show you that. We put together of the scene here.
We're told by police it looks like the suspect had an assault rifle. Four to six people were taken to the hospital. At this point, they do not confirm that anyone has died from these injuries. There is a negotiation team in there right now. The suspect has apparently hunkered down in the Sam Goody store is what we're being told, with two to three hostages. No word at all on how those hostages are, if they've been shot or affected. But right now there had been some talk -- one of our photographers had been told by police to evacuate the just the mall parking lot because of a suspicious package. But both PIOS representing Tacoma police as well as the sheriff's department for Pierce Country says that is not confirmed. And they had not heard that. So we want to pass that information along to you.
LIN (on camera): That was reporter Nicole Sanchez reporting from the scene. Right now we understand that two to three hostages inside that Sam Goody store but negotiations are under way. They are in conversation with the gunmen. No known motive as to what he wants or what triggered this mass shooting. We'll keep you posted. As soon as we get fresh video in we'll bring it to you. So stay right there.
In the meantime, we've been reporting some astonishing numbers out of Iraq on the casualties. 150 people killed this weekend alone. Those numbers can be mind numbing sometimes when we tell you, because what do they really mean except that the situation continues to be violent in Iraq? So we want to get a fresh take on the violence there and what the president needs to do to change public perception about this war. For that, I'm going to turn to CNN political analyst Carlos Watson. Carlos, good to have you.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, CNN: Good to join you. LIN: Any ideas on what the president needs to do?
WATSON: Well, clearly there are at least two things, Carol, that need to happen. Number one, he clearly needs to engage Democrats. Because right now the political environment is so hostile that even a good idea that he has is likely to be torn down. Clearly Democrats have succeeded whether on the issue of Social Security on tax on other issues in actually stymieing his agenda. The second thing that becomes clear is frankly, he needs more international help. Whether that help comes from the new chancellor of Germany, whether there can be renewed help out of Japan, whether England can take a step back from where they most recently announced they would be, which is potentially withdrawing troops as early as 2006 remains to be seen. But I think clearly thing he needs additional help and doing it on his own is unlikely to get the job done.
LIN: You compare President Bush with Harry Truman. Where are the similarities there?
WATSON: You remember that Harry Truman won the 1948 election in dramatic style. Very few people thought he was going to win. His poll numbers were very low. Similarly last year resident Bush, you always heard the analogies, Carol, that he was the first president to have his numbers below 50 person as late as March, April, even June and still go on to win. But after that big win, Harry Truman's numbers actually dropped even further as he got stuck in the quagmire, which ultimately became the Korean War. Similarly you see the same thing here with President Bush. His entire agenda has become swamped. So I think one four, the question is whether or not like President Truman and like, frankly, President Johnson he gets stuck in a quagmire and there's no further conversation or whether he's able to effect, pull a Nixon goes to China and reorient the entire conversation.
LIN: All right. We'll see if he can change that conversation. Carlos, I've got to ask you about this, too. You sent us a note about next big thing. What is that?
WATSON: You know blogs have been such a large big part of the political conversation over the last year and a half. Carol, I want you to looked at the Web site sinceslicedbread.com. It is a Web site put up by the SCIU, a maverick powerhouse union. And what they are doing is they're combining blogs in that they're talking with politics online with reality television, American Idol. And they're saying if you put forth a good idea on the economy, whether how to create jobs, how to lower people's debt, how to change the tax code, that they not only will put those online, but you can win $100,000.
LIN: We're looking at video of "American Idol" because I see the analogy there. Can you imagine people standing up on an Internet stage virtually and saying, hey, I got this great idea on how to lower interest rate or how to create more jobs.
WATSON: If this one takes off, I think in 2006, particularly as the elections come after 2008, you may see more of those. In other words, not just Web sites where you throw out an idea out, but Web sites where you actually win money and who determines who actually wins money, people vote in just line you do on "American Idol" and "Survivor" and that ends up determining the winner. So this could be the next big thing. Call it blogs 2.0.
LIN: OK. We will. How much money did you say?
WATSON: $100,000 for first place, $50,000 for both second and third place. People can still submit ideas for another two weeks, December 5 with the finalists getting announced January 9th.
LIN: Let's make this a fresh take follow-up and figure out what happens next, OK. Love to find out who won the prize.
WATSON: You bet. Be happy to do so.
LIN: All right. Great idea. Thanks, Carlos.
WATSON: Good to see you.
LIN: Well, traveling by air during the holidays? You are sure to face some intense security screenings inside the airport. But passengers and their bags aren't the only things on board a commercial airplane. Jeanne Meserve looks at air cargo security.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, CNN (off camera): Airline passengers and their luggage go through painstaking, sometimes intrusive security screening. But most of the cargo underneath their feet does not, potentially leaving the door open for a terrorist attack.
BEGIN VIDEO CLIP
REP. ED MARKEY (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Americans are really playing cargo roulette, every time they get on a passenger plane.
END VIDEO CLIP
MESERVE: In a new critical report, the government accountability office says the transportation security administration has not identified air cargo vulnerabilities. Nor has it compiled data on air cargo security breaches that could reveal security weaknesses. Because inspecting all of the 23 billion pounds of cargo shipped by air in the U.S. every year could paralyze the economic system, the TSA is developing a method to target high-risk cargo. But the GAO says the agency's database contains information on only about one-third of the 1.5 million known shippers and has not taken needed steps to identify shippers who may pose a security threat. The GAO also says because certain cargo is exempt from random inspections because of its nature and size, the system could be open to attack. One analyst says the report and the threat should be put in context.
RICHARD FALKENRATH: CNN SECURITY ANALYST, CNN: It's good to keep pressure on them, but we shouldn't focus on this single vulnerability in isolation from all the others. We shouldn't expect the department to obsess and take care only of this threat while there's so many others they have to deal with. MESERVE (on camera): the Department of Homeland Security says the threat will exploit vulnerabilities in the air cargo system is real and a high priority and while the department claims to have made progress, it is not enough to silence the critics or eliminate the threat. Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
LIN: Now, the Transportation Security Administration has responded to the GAO report. And it says the TSA has established a strong layered system of security at the air cargo arena and recognizes the need to do more.
Medicine versus faith. Up next, a couple goes on trial after they refuse medical treatment for their infant daughter.
LIN (voice over): Hostage negotiations are under way right now unfolding in the situation as hostages are inside the Sam Goody store inside the Tacoma Mall. We'll bring you the very latest, everything as it happens from that scene. Six people critically wounded and a gunman now holding hostages -- excuse me one person critically wounded, six people shot.
LIN (on camera): In other news a controversy that we'll ask you what you do -- what would you do if you were in these people's situation. When a new baby gets sick, most people go straight to the doctor. But what if medical treatment conflicts with your religious beliefs? That's exactly what happened with an Indiana couple. Their daughter died. And they are now charged with homicide. Here's CCN investigative correspondent Drew Griffin.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, CNN: There were problems from the moment Rhiana Rose Schmidt was born, in the bedroom of her grandmother's house. She wasn't breathing. According to her mother, the baby was gray and lifeless. For 20 minutes, a midwife gave the girl mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Then Rhiana's mother witnessed this. We were able to tell she a heartbeat and she began to take breaths. I was obviously very happy and praised God. That's what Rhiana Rose Schmidt's mother told an Indiana grand jury investigating her daughter's death. Rhiana Schmidt lived just one day. Prosecutors say she could have been saved, but as she lay struggling to breathe, as she was burning with fever, her parents chose not to seek medical help. Instead, they called for divine intervention.
LANCE HAMNER, JOHNSON COUNTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: As we understand it, they called elders of the church to come and pray over the baby girl.
GRIFFIN: Prayers could not save Rhiana's life. Authorities concluded a doctor could have. And no what happened in this Indiana town was considered a crime. The autopsy found the girl was born with sepsis, a bacterial lung infection normally treated with antibiotics. Prosecutor Hamner called the parents' actions homicide.
HAMNER: You're looking at a circumstance where you have loving parents. You don't have your stereotypical neglectful parents in a situation like this. And yet they didn't do the most basic thing that any parent who loved their child would do, which was to call a doctor when you can see that she's getting close to dying.
GRIFFIN: Dewayne and Maleta would not talk to us on camera, nor would any member of their church. Church members filled the courtroom to support the couple at their sentencing. And off camera, members of the general assembly and church of the firstborn say they believe the Schmidts did exactly what God wanted them to do. It is fundamental to their belief, their faith, that somehow God will provide everything they need. Even if it is the help they need to save a dying baby. Medical interference is interfering with God's will.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB BARLETT, FAMILY ATTORNEY: In this particular case, he's left a trail of three expired children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Attorney Bob Bartlett represented Church of the Firstborn member Wesley Hamm in Fresno, California. Wesley and his wife have lost three of their six children. Officials said none of them received medical care that might have saved their lives. The latest to die 10-year-old Jessica, from a bronchial infection. Larhonda Hamm (ph) is Maleta Schmidt's older sister and Attorney Bartlett says that they, the family and the church share a faith that most outsiders can't comprehend.
BARTLETT: I can't say that I came away with an expert understanding from it. The best way I could explain it is someone who is not a member of the faith is that the bible has passages that they believe expresses the idea that to seek medical attention basically is taking -- it's' a challenge to their faith in essence. It is another way of saying we don't believe that God is here. We need to seek man's help.
GRIFFIN: Those bible references are in James chapter 5, verses 14 and 15. "Is there any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him." "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up." Strictly following those verses rather than providing medicine for daughter Jessica (ph), sent the Hamms (ph) to prison for four years. But serving time for relying on faith rather than medicine even when children die is rare. Many states actually allow parents to invoke their faith to deny their children medical attention. 40 states and the District of Columbia allow some religious exceptions for childcare even including abuse and neglect, although interpretation and enforcement vary. All but two states allow religious exceptions from immunizations. And in Indiana, denial of medical attention is only a crime if a child dies. Had Rhiana lived, even a coma, prosecutor Hamner says there would be no crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMNER: That's exactly right. That's the law in our state. In some states, there is no -- there's an absolute defense, a religious defense. In other states, there's no defense at all. At some point, I think our legislature decided to try to strike a balance between the two.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Rita Swan was a Christian Scientist who denied medical care to her dying son almost 30 years ago. Now she campaigns to stop parents from relying solely on faith instead of medicine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RITA SWAN, CHILD, INC.: Love and good intentions are not all it takes to be a parent. These parents love their children, but because children are helpless and cannot assert rights for themselves, the state has also got to require parents to affirmatively protect a child from harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Five children from this tiny Church of the Firstborn in Indiana have died in recent years including Duane and Maleta Schmidt's new daughter. Maleta Schmidt told the grand jury Rhiana's death strengthened her faith. "I was very, very sad," she said. "I wanted my baby. I loved my baby. But I also realized that God is the giver and the taker of life. And he gives and he takes and it is not up to me to decide when it is someone's time to go". Convicted of reckless homicide, Duane and Maleta Schmidt were sentenced to work release for two years. They still have full custody of their two other children and say they will follow court guidelines on seeking medical care as long as they are on probation.
LIN: Well, just this week, another Indiana grand jury indicted a midwife from the Church of the Firstborn. She's charged with failing to seek medical help for a newborn who died after an infection was not treated medically.
The meantime, a tale of extreme survival. And a chance for us to evaluate how we would handle being stranded in the mountains in the snow, lost. I'm going to talk to that snowboarder in just a moment. But first, Matt Renault (ph) from our Denver affiliate KUSA is going to report on that story. All that and much more. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Now that story about extreme survival we've been telling you about. A snowboarder goes off the beaten path. That was three days before rescuers finally had a chance to find him. How would you handle being stranded in the mountains and the snow completely lost? Matt Renault from KUSA.
MATT RENAULT (ph) KUSA CORRESPONDENT: when search and rescue teams went looking for 31-year-old John Ryan, that's him in the middle --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now we have rescuers from across the state.
RENAULT: -- they knew he had been missing since Wednesday when he disappeared snow snowboarding to Keystone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ryan's Keystone's ski pass was last scanned at about 1:30 Wednesday.
RENAULT (ph): After searching within the ski area and find no clues, they also knew that Ryan was likely somewhere out of bounds in backcountry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we're just going off of experience of people who have gotten out of bounds and got lost before.
RENAULT: And after three freezing nights with heavy snow, they knew conditions were dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're definitely concerned about avalanche potential.
RENAULT: What teams didn't know but hoped for was that Ryan would be found after only a few hours of searching in the backcountry just a few hundred yards from the ski area.
JOHN RYAN: Approximately 500 yards is what I've been told right now.
RENAULT: And Ryan was in such good shape he rode on the back o of a snowmobile to the Keystone medical center, then gave his rescuers big hugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's feeling pretty good. He's definitely got some problems for being out there so long.
RENAULT: Search teams say Ryan survived by building a shelter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made a shelter out of pine boughs.
RENAULT: but his father said it all came down to family.
JOHN RYAN'S FATHER: The thing that kept him going was his family. He thought about us a lot.
LIN: All right. Let's get a quick preview of this week's holiday weather forecast. Monica McNeal is standing by at the CNN weather center. Monica, I think that was an abrupt change from a snowboarder being rescued but thank goodness he's safe. Just wondering what's ahead for holiday travelers.
MONICA MCNEAL, CNN METEOROLOGIST, CNN: I tell you what, we're already starting to see some very wet weather, Carol, in the southeastern part of the United States. An area of low pressure has developed in the Gulf soaking Tallahassee already bringing rain into parts of Montgomery and Alabama as well. This same low pressure is going to swing on past Florida. For you in Florida tomorrow, you could certainly see some severe weather. You can deal with some showers and some strong thunderstorms. Right now the temperatures are a little bit cooler. We've had clouds and we've been socked into the clouds most of the day in Atlanta. 54 degrees in Atlanta. 55 right now in Nashville. Let's fly in underneath the clouds and show you what you can expect for tomorrow. Across New York City, mainly the temperatures will be in the upper 40s and 54 degrees for you there in Boston. As we move down the coast, 55 in New York City. 55 in Atlantic City and traveling even a little farther south in Washington, 57 for you. Carol?
LIN: All right. Looks good. Thanks, Monica.
Well: CNN Live Sunday continues at the top of the hour. We'll continue to follow the mall shooting story in Tacoma, Washington. Then at 8:00 eastern, CNN presents "Egypt, a test for democracy" how the search for freedom could trigger more instability in that nation and at 9:00 Eastern, Larry King weekend. Senator John McCain. Larry will talk with the senator about Iraq and his presidential aspirations and he's going to get his take on the CIA leak probe. And I'll be back at 10:00 eastern with reaction to the mall shooting and a hostage situation.
Also more reports on the death toll and the death of a top Al Qaeda leader in Iraq. Stay tuned for another hour of CNN Live Sunday after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
