Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
14-Year-Old Not Kidnapped; Love and Murder; Mall Shooting; Life with a Lobotomy; Profile of a LA Gang Banger; Homeboy Industries Offers Employment, New Start On Life; Overworked American Males Want More Flexible Jobs
Aired November 21, 2005 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is Anderson Cooper 360 in the West, live from Los Angeles. Here's Anderson Cooper.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. Here's what's happening at this moment. Democrats' ears are still ringing from today's denunciation by Vice President Dick Cheney in a speech in Washington to the Conservative American Enterprise Institute. Mr. Cheney called the opposition party's criticism of the administration's use of prewar intelligence as quote, "revisionism of the most corrupt and shameless variety." Saying it quote, "has no place anywhere in American politics, much less in the United States Senate." Democrats shot back, saying the administration did mislead the nation in the push toward war.
Appearing tonight on CNN's "Larry King Live," in his first television interview since being drawn into the CIA leak case, Washington Post Reporter Bob Woodward said that he should have come forward earlier with the information that he had casually been told about Valerie Plame's identity two months before the publication of her name led to a scandal and an investigation. Still, he says he doesn't believe an underlying crime was committed.
COOPER (voice-over): A bizarre ending today, even for a high speed chase. When a truck was finally pulled over in Camden County, Georgia. Take a look at this. A man emerged brandishing a rifle. Sheriff's deputy eventually shot and killed the man. Here it goes. It's one of the bizarre things police officers have to deal with. As we said, the man was eventually shot.
COOPER: We begin with a stunning development tonight. In the case of a young man accused of killing his girlfriend's parents. Prosecutors in Pennsylvania now say the 14-year old girlfriend was not kidnapped after the shootings last week. They say she left willingly. CNN's Jason Carrol has the latest.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESONDENT (voice-over): Kara Borden, just 14 years old, allegedly told her 18-year old boyfriend, David Ludwig, she wanted to go with him, to drive west, to get as far away as possible, get married and start a new life. That according to a statement Borden gave to police, released today. And that's why prosecutors plan to drop the kidnapping charge against Ludwig. But he still faces two counts of homicide after allegedly confessing to shooting and killing Borden's mother and father, Katherine and Michael Borden, after an argument at their home in Lititz, Pennsylvania. No word yet on whether Kara was involved in the murder.
DAVID SHEAFFER, FAMILY FRIEND: She's a child of God and we've forgiven her. We all make mistakes. And if it comes out that there was a situation there, then so be it, but we still love her and we're going to pray for her and do whatever we can for her.
CARROLL: A police affidavit shows Ludwig told them the murder weapon, a Glock model 27 semiautomatic pistol was under the driver's front seat of the car, in which they drove 600 miles before being caught. Also in Ludwig's car, police found a rifle, numerous rounds of ammunition, a black hood and a black stocking mask.
Back at the teenager's house, police found a videotape in which they say Ludwig and a friend planned an armed forcible entry. Ludwig also discusses having an intimate relationship with Borden.
In another development, a Warwick Township, Pennsylvania police chaplain confirmed that Ludwig also had run off with a former girlfriend last spring before his relationship with Borden. That situation was resolved by his and the girl's families.
Borden's attorney declined to comment on the case. Ludwig's attorney did not return calls.
On Saturday, two silver hearses carried the bodies of Borden's parents in a funeral procession. Hundreds of people in this small religious community mourned their deaths and tried to understand how this double murder could have happened here.
TINA SHYVER-PLANK, BORDEN FAMILY FRIEND: We're all completely devastated. It's like it's just ripped down through the center of our hearts. But we're all like a family there, a big Christian family, and we're pulling together.
CARROLL: Another point with regards to this, according to the affidavit, it was just moments after the shooting that Borden told Ludwig that she quote, "wanted to stay with him." Borden's attorney tells me today that she is devastated and that she is being cared for by relatives. And at this point, Ludwig has not entered a plea to those two homicide charges he now faces -- Anderson.
COOPER: So the question still, though, remains, I guess, whether she knew in advance this was going to happen. I mean if he brought weapons to the house, if he -- as allegedly he told police, this was an intentional, he planned to do this -- the question is, did she know he planned to do this? Do we know anything about that?
CARROLL: And I think it's a question that a lot of people are asking. But with this case, you know, this investigation is still very much in progress, still unfolding. And I think as the days sort of proceed and as both teenagers get a chance to talk to detectives at more -- at a greater length, perhaps we'll learn more with regards to -- in terms of trying to find answers to a question like that one.
COOPER: Do you know how she talked to -- I guess she's talked to detectives somewhat. Are there going to be more conversations?
CARROLL: Without question, I think it's safe to say that there will definitely be more questions with this young girl. She has spoken with detectives, obviously revealing a lot so far. I'm sure detectives will have another round with her, you know, as soon as they're able to do that -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Jason Carroll, thanks very much, reporting the story for us tonight.
It is hard to imagine why a young teenager would willingly flee with a person who allegedly just killed her parents. Psychologist Robert Butterworth has some insight into what may have been going on inside Kara Borden's mind. He joins us now.
When you see this, I mean, what jumps out at you? What would make a 14-year old girl do this or go along with it?
ROBERT BUTTERWORTH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think first of all, if she was emotionally kidnapped months before -- I mean, here's a girl that originally had things on her website that had to do with Jesus.
COOPER: Right, a lot of religious writings on her website.
BUTTERWORTH: And here's a girl who was home-schooled -- now we're not trying to beat up on home-schooling, but she didn't have a large pool of probably people her own age. So she started this relationship head over heals with an 18-year old. It was probably like a Romeo and Juliet kind of situation. But for him, power and control. You know when an 18-year old is going out with a 14-year old, there's something wrong because they really can't interact pretty well with the people their own age. So generally they kind of drop down where they have power. And we know what he was planning. I mean there were license plates in the car, there were screwdrivers, there was a change of clothes.
COOPER: Multiple guns.
BUTTERWORTH: Multiple guns. So he knew what he was going to do. I have a feeling that emotionally she probably knew that they were leaving. But remember, if he was going to come in and kill the kids -- I mean kill the kids and the adults, why didn't he do it right away? Why did that hour go where they were going back and forth? And probably what happened is he snapped. The anger got out and he had the gun. He did what he had to do. And there she is.
COOPER: Well the statement that he had allegedly made to police was that he shot the father in the back as the father was walking to the front door, I guess to tell him to leave, the father having said that they couldn't see each other again. And she was apparently wandering around outside and went with him. I still find it hard to believe, I mean, if she saw her own father being shot, to jump in the car with this guy.
BUTTERWORTH: Well, you have to understand when something traumatic like that happens, things go slow and in a sense where else could she go? I mean, she had to escape. There's fight or flight mechanism. And he was probably -- it was already a plan, so she left. Probably as a 14-year old, the emotional impact didn't start sinking in until hours later. And we know when she was caught, she was somewhat hysterical.
But the other thing is that you have -- you know, I say to myself how could the parents have even encouraged this or even attempted to have it? Because they were going out for a little bit.
COOPER: Well apparently it was done in secret and they had tried to stop it, and apparently not successfully. It's a (inaudible) case. Dr. Robert Butterworth, I appreciate your joining us to talk about it.
COOPER: Turning now to the lead case itself, the charges against Ludwig and what Kara Borden may face in court. Joining me from New York, Court TV's Lisa Bloom.
Lisa, good to see you. Prosecutors say that Kara Borden willingly left with David Ludwig after he killed her parents. Now could she face charges for that?
LISA BLOOM, COURT TV: Well, that alone sounds cold-hearted and bone-headed, but probably is not a crime, just running off with somebody who's committed a crime. And that's all we know so far, Anderson. The question is --
COOPER: But I mean, if you witness a crime --
BLOOM: -- What did she do beforehand?
COOPER: If you witness a crime, don't you have some obligation to do something about it?
BLOOM: No, you don't. Not in this country. You don't have an obligation to report it. You don't have an obligation to help. In the European system and some countries you do, but you can run off with the bad guy. What you can't do is assist him in any way. You'd be an accessory after the fact if you did that afterwards. You'd be a co-conspirator if you did it beforehand. My question is what did she do beforehand? They had such a close intimate relationship for months, as you point out, Anderson. Did she really not know what he was planning, that he had the disguises in his car, that he had the guns in his car? Did she really -- was she really completely unaware of it and she just ran off on the spur of the moment? And I'm sure that's what the detectives are focusing on in their continued questioning. COOPER: Well, I know you've looked at her blog as well. I mean, there are, there are sort of rambling on it to a conversation she had with a friend, in which she sort of intimated they had some sort of a plan.
COOPER: We don't know if they're talk about this or if it was just a plan to run away or what it was a plan.
BLOOM: Well, that's the key question. And he did run off with another girlfriend last spring. Perhaps the plan was just that they were going to run off together and have this romantic life together that a 14-year old would imagine. Or perhaps the plan was more specific, that if the parents were not going to allow them to be together -- and he argued with them for about a half an hour about that before he killed them -- then he was going to shoot them. And the question is what did she know? But, you know, let's not be Pollyannaish about the fact that she's 14 years old, that yes she's an orphan now, because we know what teenagers unfortunately are capable of and every day in this country they're charged with homicide -- even girls as young as 14 years old.
COOPER: But now she doesn't really have to talk to police at this point. I mean, she could just get a lawyer and just not say anything, correct?
BLOOM: Well, that is true. The question is, what is she Anderson -- is she a victim? Is she a suspect? Is she none of the above? I mean, she was first cast as a victim. There was a kidnapping charge. Now that charge is going to be dropped because both she and David say she wasn't kidnapped, she went off voluntarily. Is she somewhere in the middle, just in a gray area, neither victim nor perpetrator? If she's a suspect, she certainly doesn't have to speak to the police. She can be Mirandized, she can refuse to speak, she can get a lawyer and clam up. So all of that remains to be seen. If she wants to paint herself as a victim, you're going to wonder why wouldn't she want to speak to the police?
COOPER: Interesting. All right, Lisa Bloom, good talking to you. Thanks.
BLOOM: Nice to see you, Anderson.
COOPER: Lisa Bloom, from Court TV.
Coming up next on 360, shots ring out at a mall in Tacoma, Washington. Just when so many millions of us are headed to the nation's malls to go shopping for the holidays. More on what happened in Washington this weekend.
And it was considered an acceptable surgical procedure once, now we think of it as butchery. Look at this picture -- a 12-year old boy undergoing a lobotomy. He is now a man and he wants answers.
Plus this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean for me, I like pain. So, if you hit me, damn. I like -- it's like a rush, an adrenaline rush for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll take you inside an L.A. street gang and show you what gang life is really all about.
COOPER: Welcome back. This Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, is typically one of the busiest shopping days of the year. Millions of people are going to pack malls across the country, busy thinking about gifts, perhaps not as much so about safety. That won't be the case in Tacoma, Washington. Sure the malls are going to be crowded, but chances are hardly anyone will feel completely safe, especially after yesterday's shooting which injured six people -- one critically.
Tonight we know more about how it all happened and more about the alleged shooter's troubled past. CNN's Chris Lawrence has the latest.
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESONDENT (voice-over): A judge set bail at $2 million for Dominic Maldonado (ph), but it's not the first time a court judgment has gone against him.
CNN has learned Maldonado has four prior convictions while he was a juvenile, including one for burglary, that makes it illegal for him to have a gun.
Maldonado pleaded not guilty on Monday to charges that he shot eight shoppers and kidnapped several others in a Tacoma, Washington, mall. His ex-girlfriend says she is not surprised by the accusations against Maldonado.
TIFFANY ROBISON, MALDONADO FRIEND: Because of the way he has talked in the past, the way he's thought. And he said he wanted to do something stupid. He didn't go into details. He didn't explain.
LAWRENCE: Tiffany Robison says Maldonado text-messaged her cell phone, then called her as he barricaded himself inside a music store.
ROBISON: He's like, I'm crazy, I'm crazy. I can't do this. I'm crazy. And he's like, I got to let you go. I'm on the other line with the police. And that was the end of that.
LAWRENCE: Prosecutors say Maldonado walked into the mall Sunday with two guns and a bag full of ammunition.
RON COLSTON, WITNESS: I only heard about four or five shots. And he shot about five or six times more. He had a smile on his face. And this is what I could not believe.
LAWRENCE: Ron Colston saw one woman go down after being and told his family to run.
COLSTON: And we ran out the door, toward the back and I looked at my wife and I got my wife and granddaughter out the door.
LAWRENCE: Police say Maldonado barricaded himself inside the music store with four hostages. It took four hours before he finally gave up and turned over his weapons.
Doug Bird runs a security firm in Tacoma. Bird says authorities have worried for years that light security at malls make them potential terrorist targets. But they are also very vulnerable to everyday violent crimes.
DOUG BIRD, U.S. SECURITY SERVICES: By having somebody with a nice crisp uniform on and a badge, I don't think that deters anybody. They have to have the equipment to do that.
If I'm security and somebody wants to commit a crime -- a perpetrator wants to commit a crime -- and he's armed and I'm not? What good am I?
LAWRENCE: In Maldonado's case, the security guards were not armed. But there are police officers stationed at the mall. Yet even security experts admit it's a lot tougher to prevent this kind of random shooting than react after it's already started.
LAWRENCE: Police found more than 20 expended cartridges inside the mall, some of them near the Santa Claus display. After he was arrested, detectives went back and searched Maldonado's home. Prosecutors say they found bomb-making diagrams and a formula for creating the poison gas ricin -- Anderson.
COOPER: Man. All right, Chris Lawrence, thanks.
Sophia Choi from "Headlines News," joins us with some of the other stories we're following today. Hi Sophia.
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Anderson. One deputy has been fired and eight others disciplined for allowing a death row inmate to just stroll out the front door of a jail in downtown Houston this month, an official said today.
Harris County Sheriff says he doesn't think Charles Thompson had any outside help and blames employee error for allowing the murderer to escape on November 3. He was caught three days later in Shreveport, Louisiana.
Detroit, Michigan -- major job cuts by General Motors. The car maker says it will slash 30,000 jobs and close or scale back operations at about a dozen plants in a bid to save $7 billion a year and halt huge losses in its core North American auto operations.
In Oregon, a Nike corporate jet make a safe emergency landing -- that after its right wing landing gear became stuck. The jet landed wheels down. Seven people were on board. None seriously injured.
And a collection of poems written by Rock Legend Bob Dylan when he was a student at the University of Minnesota back in 1960, sold for $78,000 in a rock and pop memorabilia auction at Christie's. The 16 pages, handwritten in pencil, formed the earliest Dylan manuscript ever offered and brought the highest price to date for the acclaimed song writer. Not bad, huh, Anderson?
COOPER: Not bad for some college scribblings. Thanks very much, Sophia.
COOPER: Coming up next on 360, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was in 1961 and I remember going to the hospital and being told that I was going to the hospital for tests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He was told he was going for tests. He was going for a lobotomy. He was 12 years old. The 40-year search for answers for a man who was a boy, was forced to undergo this operation. Tonight, he wants to know why.
And later, the gangs of L.A. CNN is given unprecedented access into a very violent and deadly way of life. A report you won't want to miss.
COOPER: And welcome back. We are live in Los Angeles. Tonight, parents are supposed to keep their children safe and doctors are supposed to act in the best interests of their patients.
Howard Dully was short-changed on both counts. More than 40 years ago he was forced to have an operation that today is considered barbaric -- a lobotomy. He was just a boy at the time, 12 years old.
Two years ago he set out to learn the truth about the operation that changed his life. CNN's Senior Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has his story. And bear in mind, some of the images you'll see are disturbing.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He was a 12-year old boy who says he didn't get along with his stepmother. She didn't like his sullen moods, he says. Didn't like the fact he was reluctant to bathe. So she took him to a special doctor.
HOWARD DULLY: I was 12 years old. It was in 1961. And I remember going to the hospital and being told that I was going to the hospital for tests.
GUPTA: But Howard Dully was not going to the hospital for tests. He was going for an operation.
H. DULLY: My file has everything. A photo of me with the ice picks in my eyes. I want to understand why this was done to me.
GUPTA: What was done to Howard Dully was a lobotomy. His search for answers has been made into an MPR documentary called, "My Lobotomy." Howard Dully's surgeon was the man who introduced lobotomies to America as a way to treat mental illness -- Dr. Walter J. Freeman.
Dr. Freeman was so proud of his work, so convinced of the benefits of lobotomies, he distributed instructional films which he narrated in 1949.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTER FREEMAN, DR.: This patient came to the hospital this morning after breakfast. And if all goes well, she will leave tomorrow afternoon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: A year later, another Freeman film presented a young catatonic before lobotomy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREEMAN: This is a boy of 19. A dreamy, sensitive individual interested particularly in the current musical idiom of B-Bop. Transorbital lobotomy was preformed on August 1 by Dr. Jonathan M. Williams. Within a few days the patient resumed playing the saxophone. hallucinations subsided.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Considered barbaric by today's standards, the history of lobotomies is not black and white. Jack El-Hai is the author of "The Lobotomist," a biography of Dr. Freeman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mid-1930s, when Freeman began performing lobotomies were a time of great desperation in the treatment of psychiatric illnesses.
GUPTA: At that time mental institutions or insane asylums, as they were called back then, were overrun. Their conditions often deplorable. The medicines we now use to help treat psychiatric illnesses had not yet been invented. The lobotomy became the most legitimate form of treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not considered a cure, but it was considered a way to blunt or lesson the symptoms enough so that people could get out and return to their families. And they did in many cases return to their families. GUPTA: The idea behind a lobotomy is that symptoms of mental illness, such as depression, schizophrenia and suicidal tendencies are caused by the connections between the frontal lobes and another part of the brain, the thalamus. Cut the connection, solve the problem.
Over the years, about 40,000 to 50,000 people received lobotomies. According to some estimates, about a third were considered successful.
Ann Crebsack (ph) endured schizophrenia for eight years until she had her lobotomy in 1961.
ANN CREBSACK (PH), LOBOTOMY PATIENT: And I think I did very well and I'm not sure if I hadn't had the lobotomy that I would have done that well.
GUPTA: But the vast majority of patients did not do well. Some died. Many were left paralyzed. And in the successful cases where someone was well enough to leave the hospital after their lobotomy, many were not the same person as when they came in.
One of the most famous of Dr. Freeman's patients was Rosemary Kennedy, sister to Jack and Bobby. Born mildly retarded, she functioned independently until age 23, when Dr. Freeman performed the procedure in 1941. It was a failure. After her lobotomy, Rosemary Kennedy was admitted to a mental institution in Wisconsin, where she remained for 50 years until her death this year at the age of 86.
Rosemary Kennedy received a prefrontal lobotomy. But another procedure championed by Freeman was the transorbital -- or ice pick lobotomy. It was performed by Dr. Freeman himself or doctors he trained. They used only this device. It's called a lucatone (ph). And the entire procedure took less than 10 minutes. Instead of boring through the skull, the doctors could get to the brain through the thin boney plate at the upper part of the eye socket to sever the neural pathways.
This was the kind of procedure 12-year old Howard Dully received. But why did Dr. Freeman choose to operate on Howard Dully? According to the records, Dr. Freeman diagnosed the boy as schizophrenic, a diagnosis that according to Howard's doctors, would not have held today. After years of silence and his stepmother's death, Howard turned to his father, Rodney Dully, for answers in the MPR documentary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how did you find Dr. Freeman?
RODNEY DULLY: I didn't. She did. She took him. I don't -- I think she tried some other doctors that said uh uh, there's nothing wrong here. He's a normal boy. It was the stepmother problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question would be naturally why would you let it happen to me if that was the case.
R. DULLY: I got manipulated, pure and simple. I was sold a bill of goods. She sold me and Freeman sold me and I didn't like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: After the lobotomy, Dully became a ward of the state, moving from juvenile detention, to mental hospital, to a home for troubled children, then halfway houses. At one point even living out of a car.
As for Dr. Freeman, he continued to perform lobotomies until 1967, when his final lobotomy patient died from a brain hemorrhage. He was banned from ever operating again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
H. DULLY: Considering that has my life has been very traumatic because of the lobotomy, it's not what you see as physically, that I dress like a normal person and look normal. It's how you live.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Howard began to turn his life around in the 1990s and quit drinking. He's now happily married, has a son and enjoys his job driving a tour bus. Through this documentary, Howard has found some answers about what exactly happened to him. But the most profound will always allude him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
H. DULLY: I think that I'm intelligent enough now. I probably would have been as intelligent enough then. To say that I came out as I would have been, I don't know. I don't know how you can go into a brain and scramble it and have me come out like I would have been. That doesn't make sense. But what specifically have I lost that I'm not capable of doing mentally? I can't answer that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Dr. Sonjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.
COOPER: Unbelievable story. Can you imagine sending a 12-year old boy -- your own 12-year old child to have that done? It's just incredible.
Coming up next on 360. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) nothing else -- I don't come home to nothing else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The world of L.A. street gangs. They're growing in number and in violence. Tonight, a look inside a most dangerous world.
COOPER: Welcome back to 360. We are in Los Angeles tonight. If you think gang warfare is something that happens far away from you, think again. According to the Justice Department, there are more than 750,000 gang members in the United States. They are everywhere, in cities and suburbs, even small towns.
But nowhere is their presence felt like it is here in LA. Los Angeles, it is said, is the gang capital of the country. Ground zero, a 15 mile area just east of downtown, called Hollenbeck. There the gang members will tell they don't just roam the streets, they control them. And for many young men it is not just a way of life, it is a way of death. Our report begins tonight with a profile of a modern- day gangster.
KIKI, LOS ANGELES GANG MEMBER: This is all my area of where I grew up, you know? Where I have my memories at. Right here is like the border line for us.
We're entering the zone now.
I walk around with a tattoo on my head. I am a target. I have a bull's eye. That should tell you everything.
I earn my respect because I'm still here. I've stay sucker free. I guess this is where God wants me.
COOPER (voice over): Kiki is 26. A proud member of White Fence, one of Hollenbeck's 34 gangs.
KIKI: I mean, for me, I like pain. So, you hit me, damn, I like it. It's like a rush, an adrenaline rush for me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Makes you fight harder?
KIKI: No, it just feels good.
COOPER: Over the years, he's found plenty to fight about.
KIKI: Another gang crosses out black (ph).
COOPER: Even the smallest offense. White Fence graffiti crossed out, can lead to violence.
KIKI: It just means war.
COOPER (on camera): The name White Fence is said to come from the white fences that used to run along the main drags in this neighborhood. The gang can trace its history all the way back to the late 1930s. Believe it or not, White Fence actually started as a church sports team. It is now one of the most notorious gangs in Hollenbeck. (GANG MEMBER RAPPING)
COOPER (voice over): The police say there are now 700 White Fence members and associates.
(GANG MEMBER RAPPING)
COOPER: Gangsters who claim to be guardians of the neighborhood.
KIKI: We don't let nobody come in our neighborhood and be messing with the people's cars, breaking in their houses.
OFFICER JAKE DUGGER, LA POLICE DEPT.: The ultimate sacrifice for that could be death. It could be a beating, but the ultimate sacrifice is it could death.
KIKI: The little white fence, you see it right there?
Yeah, we see somebody trying to do that, yeah, we're going to get them.
COOPER: In Hollenbeck, "getting them" often means guns. Kiki says he's been shot three times.
KIKI: Right there, at 10 in the morning. Drive by.
You know, when you get shot you're like, bam. People are just screaming, Ah! You're going to be all right. I'm like damn. I'm like, Damn, I'm in the hospital. I got shot in my arm. I'm like what the --?
COOPER (on camera): Kiki was 14 when he joined White Fence. He was "jumped in", beaten up by fellow gang members. It is a common initiation meant to test loyalty and give new members a taste of what gang life is all about.
What do you think it was that drew you to it in the first place, and why you -- ?
(Voice over): Joining White Fence was no big deal for Kiki.
KIKI: I don't know. My family are all from gangs.
COOPER (voice over): He says his parents, brothers, cousins, and uncle all ran with the Maravia (ph) gang.
JOHNNY GODINEZ, KIKI'S UNCLE: I'm an ex-gang member, an ex- convict.
COOPER: Kiki's uncle, Johnny Godinez, now a gang intervention worker says poverty and broken families make it easy for gangs to recruit in Hollenbeck.
GODINEZ: The parent is not there because they're working hard to provide. So the youngster is only learning from the streets, that's all they have to learn -- to teach them. COOPER: For Kiki, who spent time in foster care, the gang was everything he hoped for, friends, family, and fights.
KIKI: When I was in junior high that was what we used to go to school for, is to pick a fight. I was nuts to butts (ph). That was it.
COOPER: His status in the gang grew, along with his juvenile record.
KIKI: Guns, drugs, assault, attempted murder, gang banging, everything.
COOPER (on camera): Some people would say it is wrong to be in a gang. You know, it's wrong to sell drugs, gang bang, whatever.
KIKI: Well, sell drugs, is like -- I mean, if we don't do it. Someone else is going to do it.
COOPER (voice over): Older gang members, veteranos (ph), schooled Kiki in the odd logic of gang morality and the rules of engagement. Drive by shootings are OK, as long as they don't kill innocent kids.
KIKI: That's a no-no. I mean, damn. They don't know right from wrong. Us, who are holding the gun, do.
COOPER: And if a homeboy is killed, gang members should take the law into their own hands.
KIKI: We take it upon our own hands and deal, you know, deal with it.
DUGGER: Generally, within -- sometimes within hours, the retaliation is already being planned. One for one, eye for an eye, basically is how they feel about it.
KIKI: The cops they got so many murders on their hands. I mean, we'd rather take our own actions.
One of my friends died right here protecting the bridge. So, this is one of the places we can't let go.
COOPER: Though he joined the gang for a sense of belonging, 12 years later, Kiki now finds himself alone. Most of his friends are in prison, or dead.
KIKI: They all cross my mind, you know. There are like three or four, without them I feel empty. I'm like one of the last of the Mohicans.
COOPER (on camera): I don't quite get the appeal of being in a gang, right now, for you.
KIKI: This is all I got. I don't got nothing else. I don't come home to nothing else. COOPER (voice over): Kiki passes time tattooing. A skill he picked up in jail. He has no fulltime job, but takes classes at a community college.
KIKI: Yeah, I'm going to fix this one up right now, so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That says White Fence.
COOPER: He's on probation for selling crack. The temptations of gang life are all around.
KIKI: I can't change up now because where am I going to go?
COOPER (on camera): So, like 10 years from now what do you think you'll be doing?
KIKI: I don't know. I don't think ahead like that. I just go day by day.
COOPER (voice over): Kiki does think about putting his fighting skills to use. Inspired by one of his favorite movies, "Full Metal Jacket", he talks about joining the Marines.
KIKI: I think that's the best route for us gang members. That are hardcore? That would be the best route for society.
COOPER: But with his criminal record, joining the Marines is just a fantasy. A fantasy he's fighting to hold on to.
KIKI: Yeah, why not? I'd rather die a hero than, you know, die a statistic.
COOPER: Well, next on 360.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FATHER GREG BOYLE: You don't have to take Psych 101 for credit to know that folks act out in a violent way because they're disturbed, damaged people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Can the courage and compassion of that Catholic priest change the destiny of these gang members? Part II of my report.
COOPER: And we are live in Los Angeles, California. Welcome back to 360. Before the break we introduced you to a young man. His name is Kiki, he's a member of a gang called White Fence. It is one of 34 gangs that call Hollenbeck home.
Hollenbeck is a Latino community here in Los Angeles. And when the sun goes down the bloody trade of gang warfare comes alive. Kiki told us he had dreams of becoming a Marine, but the temptations of gang life are all around him. It is a cycle of violence that is simply hard to break.
There are people, however, ready to help and trying, including a man you are about to meet. A remarkable man of faith.
COOPER (voice over): Getting out of a gang is harder than getting in. Especially if you're a walking billboard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your head up. Just look at the barber, and move your arm a little (ph).
COOPER: But there is help in Hollenbeck.
Homeboy Industries is an employment agency for gang members, founded by a Catholic priest, Father Greg Boyle.
FATHER GREG BOYLE, FOUNDER, HOMEBOY INDUSTRIES: How you doing, Meduc (ph)?
COOPER: The agency places about 300 gang members each year in private sector jobs, or in one of Homeboy Industries own small business, such as its silk screening shop.
BOYLE: It gives them a reason to get up in the morning and a reason not to gangbang the night before. And it fills them with a sense of dignity.
COOPER: Volunteer doctors also help with free laser treatments to remove gang tattoos.
BOYLE: Kids get pushed into this -- into this mess, and don't really realize what they're getting into.
COOPER: When Father Greg came to Hollenbeck as a parish priest nearly 20 years ago, he was stunned by the level of violence.
BOYLE: And when I started burying the young people, my first kid I buried was in 1988. It was a kid who had been stabbed to death. It took the scales off my eyes.
COOPER: What the police saw as a law enforcement issue, Father Greg came to see in terms of mental health.
BOYLE: You don't have to take Psych 101 for credit to know that folks act out in a violent way because they're disturbed, damaged people.
COOPER: Jobs not jails became his motto. Homeboy Industries, his ministry.
BOYLE: You know, when Jesus says, if you love those who love you, big wow? You know?
COOPER (on camera): Jesus says, big wow?
BOYLE: I believe that's original Greek. And then, but then he goes on to say, but try loving your enemies, you know? You can say, well, we stand with the victims, which is great, don't stop doing that. But can you also stand with the victimizer?
COOPER: You want to give gang members a second chance?
BOYLE: Who gave them their first, you know? And that's the truth.
COOPER (voice over): He's talking about people like Richard Moya, who grew up in a Hollenbeck housing project around a relative who abused drugs. At age four, he saw his father, a gang member, shot to death.
BOYLE: Try to wrap your mind around that. You know, you start to say, well, come on. What do you think that does to a kid?
COOPER: It helped push Moya into a gang at 13 and a life of violence.
RICHARD MOYA, EX-GANG MEMBER: I was a walking time bomb, man. You know, I was out there and somebody said, boom, I was on that. That was it. You know what I mean?
COOPER: Eventually, Moya went to prison for drugs and guns. After being paroled three years ago, Homebody Industries tried placing him in several jobs.
MOYA: It was just like I wasn't familiar to taking all these orders or listening to these people telling me this and that.
BOYLE: It didn't ever quite work out. Plus, he's tattooed in a way that's -- most employers would be sort of alarmed by.
MOYA: I would just go in there and speak out of my mind and just talk loud and get hostile and make people believe like I was going to do something wild or crazy.
COOPER (on camera): Do you write someone off at any point?
BOYLE: Do I think God writes anybody off at any point? Of course not. And who would I be to say, well, I'm going to make a decision. Here's the write off point.
COOPER: Instead of writing Moya off Father Greg hired him in the Homeboy Industries office.
MOYA: To be honest with you, Brother, I cried with joy.
Line four, collect call, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What line, Richard?
MOYA: Collect call, line three. The way he feels and the way his theory is, I mean, if you had him making the rules for baseball there wouldn't be nobody striking out, because that is just what his beliefs are. Throw him the ball until he actually gets it.
BOYLE: All right, Duc-wan (ph). Glad you're OK.
COOPER: Many Hollenbeck police officers think Father Greg is too permissive.
OFFICER AARON SKIVER, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPT.: A lot of these so-called gang members that he's helping get out of the gang, continue the same activities they were doing while in the gang. But he is offering them some type of shelter and protection, under the disguise of Homeboy Industries.
COOPER: Not true, says Father Greg. If an employee stays active in a gang, he's gone.
BOYLE: If I'm aware of something going on, people are fired.
COOPER (on camera): Do you think you get taken advantage of?
BOYLE: I don't know what that means to have be taken advantage of. I give my advantage everyday, so nobody has ever taken it from me.
COOPER (voice over): The tension with police grew worse after two employees of Homeboy Industries graffiti removal business were shot to death in June of 2004. Police say both men were still involved with gangs. Father Greg says they were actually trying to rebuild their lives.
BOYLE: It's hard for people to make that change. And it's like recovery. Surprise, surprise. Somebody is 20 years sober and at an AA meeting somebody is 20 minutes sober. And two steps forward and eight steps backward. You know, welcome to the human race.
COOPER: After the murders Father Greg shut down the graffiti removal business, but his commitment to Homeboy Industries is unshaken.
BOYLE: I'm not called to be successful. I feel called to be faithful.
COOPER: And you believe redemption is possible.
BOYLE: I think it's the basis of what everybody fundamentally believes, not matter how distant we can grow from each other. Everybody believes in a sense of redemption. Everybody does.
COOPER: I loved it when I said, some people say that you're being taken advantage of, and the priest said, you know, that he gives his advantage away every day. Nice way to put it. Sophia Choi from Headlines News joins us for the other stories we're following right now.
SOPHIA CHOI, NEWS ANCHOR, CNN HEADLINES NEWS: Hi there, Anderson.
Well, the United States has slapped an interim ban on poultry from British Columbia. It follows last week's discovery of a duck carrying a non-lethal strain of bird flu virus. Officials are testing birds on about 50 farms near where that duck was found. They say there is no evidence the disease had spread even to other birds at that original site.
Hillsdale, Michigan, perhaps no homework tonight for 18-year-old Michael Sessions. He's likely celebrating now that he's been sworn in as the town's mayor. Yeah, he's still going to school and he's going to do his mayoral duties afterwards.
On Election Day, Sessions beat the 51-year-old incumbent by two votes as a write in candidate.
In Thailand, people tired of hearing from their prime minister can thank their lucky stars, I guess. He's said to be boycotting the media because the alignment of the planets isn't in his favor. The prime minister told reporters, quote, "Right now Mercury is aligned with my star. Mercury is no good, so if it's not good, I'll just wait until next year to talk."
Anderson, I'm all into reading horoscopes now and again, but I can't get into that.
COOPER: I've never heard that excuse from a politician for why they're not going to talk. It's fascinating.
CHOI: Exactly. That's a new one on me.
COOPER: Yeah, thanks very much. See if it works here.
Coming next on 360. It's great if you love your job, but what if you're held prisoner by your job? What male executives are taking from the playbooks of their female colleagues and what you can learn from them. Ahead.
COOPER: Well, thanks to Madison Avenue, there is a popular misconception that a male executive's life is a cocktail of glamour, power and sex appeal. This week's "Fortune" magazine offers a reality check. Men slowly burning out as night after night, their work stretches to midnight or beyond. Their missing time with their loved ones let alone down time for themselves. What's being done about it? More than you might expect. Here's CNN Gary Tuchman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): His workweek sometimes last 110 hours.
GREGG SLAGGER, SR. PARTNER, ERNST & YOUNG: Ticket is going to be big.
TUCHMAN: Gregg Slagger has often watched day turn into night and wonder where the time has gone.
SLAGGER: It's high pressure. Very demanding on our people and there's a lot of deadline pressure. There's millions and billions of dollars that are exchanging hands in these transactions and millions of jobs in the balance.
TUCHMAN: But at home, with his wife and children ...
SLAGGER: Big swing. One more, one more.
TUCHMAN: ...he wonders where the months and years have gone.
SLAGGER: I think the first realization came a couple of years ago, where you just -- you see your boys growing up and you don't want to be missing that.
TUCHMAN: Gregg is a senior partner at Ernst & Young, one of the world's largest accounting firms. He's a transaction advisor in the mergers and acquisitions department.
SLAGGER: When I think about it in terms of eulogies, I've never heard a eulogy where the guy was announced as a good due diligence partner. Most of them tend to talk about if he was a good husband or a good father.
TUCHMAN: The conflicts of being an ambitious male in the workplace is the topic of a "Fortune" magazine cover story this week. "Get a Life" is written by a husband and wife team.
JODY MILLER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: For so many years this issue has been talked about and fretted about by women. And today, what we have found, is men care about this too. And they care about it a great deal.
TUCHMAN: With that in mind, an increasing number of companies are realizing it might be good business to discourage the constant burning of the midnight oil.
MATT MILLER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Just because business needs to be 24/7 doesn't mean that individuals need to be 24/7.
TUCHMAN: Job sharing, job flexibility, and additional hiring are some of the ways its being done. Gregg Slagger's department at Ernst & Young has started a program where jobs, responsibilities and priorities have been rethought so men get more time at home. Gregg is averaging an extra hour or two with his wife and children each day.
SUE SLAGGER, GREGG'S WIFE: We can get out and play sports in the park, or go rollerblading.
G. SLAGGER: I think I bring more energy to my job. I think, as opposed to time. And I think those are two unique concepts to understand.
TUCHMAN: The program is relatively new but Gregg's boss says, so far, it's going well.
PAUL BADER, VICE CHAIR, ERNST & YOUNG: When you're working at 2 and 3 in the morning, you're productivity level is pretty low. So the fact of the matter is the difference between taking out some of those ridiculous sort of extreme hours, particularly when they're not necessary, I don't think has as material an impact on the quality of our work as maybe everybody thinks.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Working hard and long is part of American corporate culture. But learning how to get a life is increasingly becoming part of American corporate consciousness.
TUCHMAN (voice over): Much to the delight of these very interested bystanders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CHILD: He came to our award ceremony today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CHILD: And mine also!
TUCHMAN: Well, those 110 hour weeks are now history. Once in a while, Gregg still works seven straight days for about 80 hours. But a more typical workweek is now 45 hours. And once in a while it goes down to 35. Not a bad lifestyle change, Anderson.
COOPER: That's a very smart man there. I want to get a life, too. I'm going to ask you how to do it later.
More on 360 in just a moment.
COOPER: Tomorrow from Los Angeles, is the self-help industry a sham? We'll talk to Tony Robbins live. That's it for us tonight. Larry King is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com