Skip to main content


Return to Transcripts main page


New Details Emerge in Pennsylvania Double Murder; Gunman Opens Fire in Tacoma Shopping Mall

Aired November 21, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, stunning and newly-revealed evidence in the Pennsylvania double murder of mother and father of 14-year-old Kara Borden, now tending to prove the 14-year-old girl went along willingly, knowing her parents had just been gunned down. And tonight we learn that chief suspect, Borden`s 18-year-old boyfriend, David Ludwig`s, laptop is full of steamy photos the two exchanged and a home-made movie where the 18- year-old reportedly plans a deadly home invasion of another family.
Tonight, just as the malls begin to fill up with holiday shoppers, a gunman opens fire in a Tacoma shopping mall. And tonight, to California, where a candidate for California governor is arrested for a 1996 murder.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Stunning developments in the Pennsylvania murders of the mother and father of a 14-year-old Pennsylvania girl, alleged shooter, David Ludwig. Tonight, is 14-year-old Kara Borden an accomplice, not a victim? And now new evidence from Ludwig`s laptop includes a home movie of Ludwig and a friend armed to the teeth and planning to attack another family.

And tonight, candidate for California governor under arrest for the `96 murder of the multi-millionaire lover of his wife.

But first tonight, to Tacoma, Washington, and the unpredictable mass shooting at a local mall -- six shot, plus hostages, including a 9-year-old boy, alleged gunman, 20-year-old Dominick Maldonado, using an assault-style rifle, dressed in a shirt and tie.


RON COLSTON, WAS AT MALL WITH FAMILY: I told my daughter and my grandson to run, and they ran out the door, toward the back. And I looked at my wife, and I got my wife and granddaughter out the door. And we were hiding in the back, in a hallway. And a lady had came out after us, and we thought she`d tripped over the hand truck (ph) going out the back door, and she was shot in the leg.


GRACE: Just as the holiday shopping season is about to kick off. Straight to "Seattle Post Intelligencer" reporter Jake Ellison. What happened, Jake, at that mall?

JAKE ELLISON, "SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER": Well, apparently, right around just after noon, you know, a well-dressed young man, as you pointed out, walked into the mall, at first carrying a guitar case and wearing a black trenchcoat, right in front of the J.C. Penney store...

GRACE: Oh, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute right there. Anybody that covered the Columbine shootings, you walk in with a trenchcoat and a guitar case into a mall, just everybody jump on your stomach that moment! Go ahead, Jake.

ELLISON: Well, you know, walking around the scene on the outside, there were a lot of young men wearing long black trenchcoats. In fact, several of the witnesses I talked to wore them, and I saw a lot of young men just sort of hanging around the bus stop there later in the evening wearing long black trenchcoats. Seems to be quite of a trend there.

GRACE: Straight to CNN correspondent Chris Lawrence. I understand Maldonado in court today. What happened?

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Nancy, I watched him walk into court today, a tall, skinny kid, looked like -- he`s 20 years old but looked like he could have been a high school senior. He didn`t say much in court. He pleaded not guilty to eight charges of first degree assault, four charges of kidnapping. About the only words he said in court today were "Not guilty," when the judge asked him how he would plead. He walked out, and that was pretty much it. The whole hearing took less than five minutes.

GRACE: He opens fire in a mall. What, did he have a beef with the Swiss colony (ph)? What -- why?

LAWRENCE: Well, from what we`re hearing, this was a troubled young man. We`re getting some information from his ex-girlfriend, who got a text message -- she says she got a text message from Dominick Maldonado that said, "Today is the day the world will hear my anger. Today is the day the world will hear my pain. Today I will be heard."

Then she says she got a call from Maldonado while this siege was going on, saying that he had taken hostages. She`s wondering what`s going on -- What are you doing? And he says, apparently from her, on the phone, on his cell phone, he tells her, I`m crazy, I`m crazy. I can`t talk to you right now. I`ve got the police on the other line.

But when asked, Could you ever even imagine that he would be capable of something like this, she said, Well, vaguely, yes because of things he had thought, things he had said. She says that Maldonado at one point told her, I`m going to do something stupid.

GRACE: Well, speaking of her -- we`re talking about the ex- girlfriend, emphasis on ex -- here she is.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He sent me one text message saying that the world is going to feel his anger, feel his pain, that today is the day that he`s going to be heard. And I texted back, What are you doing? What are you doing? And he didn`t respond.

Dominick had called me not even two seconds after being on the phone with my friend and said that he was -- he had just shot up the Tacoma mall, and he was holding people hostage in Sam Goody.


GRACE: And this young man appearing in court today. Let`s go back to CNN correspondent Chris Lawrence. What specifically are the charges? Does he have a lawyer? And was there a search of his home?

LAWRENCE: Yes, he does have a lawyer. A public defender was appointed. And interestingly enough, this was not Maldonado`s first time in a courtroom. He does have a juvenile record, several convictions in juvenile court for theft and for burglary. The burglary conviction actually means that it would be illegal for him to have a gun, in the first place. And again, so he is not somebody -- he`s someone who has had somewhat of a troubled past over the past few years.

GRACE: Chris Lawrence, do we know what kind of a gun he used at the Tacoma mall?

LAWRENCE: One assault rifle...

GRACE: Good God in heaven!

LAWRENCE: ... one semi-automatic handgun.

GRACE: An assault rifle? He walks into a mall...

LAWRENCE: That`s right.

GRACE: ... just starting to fill up with holiday shoppers, with -- and now, Elizabeth (ph), to top it off, you`re showing me his criminal history. Holy -- OK, Chris Lawrence, you told me he`s got the public defender. You told me about his juvenile record. Elizabeth is showing that right now. But was there a search on his home? And what did they find?

LAWRENCE: Well, what the -- there was a search on his home. Detectives went to his house, searched both his home and his car. Didn`t find anything in the car. But prosecutors say that detectives found inside his home targets, body targets, at least one of which had been shot through, a diagram for making bombs, and also a formula for creating the poison gas ricin.

GRACE: OK. I`m sorry. I had to take a pause and just let that soak in for a moment. Did he live with his parents?

LAWRENCE: That we don`t know. That I don`t know, Nancy. But I know they did go in there. They did search his entire home, again, looked in his car, as well. Didn`t find anything in the car.

But we should also mention, too, there were no specific charges brought about any of that. The charges were only related to the assault on the eight people who were shot and the kidnapping of the four people who were held inside that music store and the two charges of, you know, having the two weapons. But none of those were actually brought in to the criminal record in terms of charges brought against him. But this is what prosecutors say detectives found when they searched his home.

GRACE: Chris Lawrence joining us from Tacoma, Washington, with very disturbing news about this young man. Chris Lawrence, thank you.

We were speaking earlier of this guy`s ex-girlfriend, that he somehow managed to pause in the middle of a mass shooting and a hostage situation and do a few text messages. Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He calls me this morning. He sounded -- he didn`t sound upset. He sounded relaxed. He just said that, I`m either going to a good place where good people go, or I`m going to a bad place where bad people go.

He didn`t upset. He sounded relaxed. He just said that, I`m either going to a good place where good people go, or I`m going to a bad place where bad people go. And he just apologized for being rude to me in the last few weeks and stuff and said that he really cared about me and he had to go, he couldn`t talk anymore. And then he sent me this text message at 11:58, and the shooting started at 12:15. And I wasn`t aware of that. My friend called me and said, Did you hear what happened at the mall? I was, like, No. And as soon as she told me, I was, like, Dominick. I already knew.


GRACE: You know, so often I have heard crime victims and people that knew perpetrators, the moment they hear, they go, I know what happened.

Very quickly, out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler. Pat, this guy went to get bad people at the bad mall? Explain to me. You`re the profiler.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I don`t think he was saying that, Nancy. I think he was saying that if he killed himself before he did anything, he was going to go to the good place where good people go. And if he didn`t kill himself first, he was going to go to the bad place where bad people go. Now we know where he`s going, pretty much.

GRACE: You know, back to Jake Ellison with "The Seattle Post Intelligencer." What exactly was the text message he sent?

ELLISON: Well, just as you said, he said, "Today is the day that the world will know my anger. Today is the day that the world will feel my pain. And today is the day I will be heard."

GRACE: What about the thing about bad people and good people? How does that fit in?

ELLISON: Well, she said that that was a statement that he had made to her early Sunday morning. She was -- he called her about 7:00 AM in the morning and, you know, tried to talk to her a little bit. And she said that, you know, it`s pretty early for her, and she didn`t have a chance to really converse with him. But at that point, he told her that...


ELLISON: ... that, I may be going to a place where good people go or a bad place where bad people go, and that he couldn`t talk and then he hung up. She said that, you know, she was -- she wishes now she would have talked to him a lot more.

GRACE: Well, explain to me, Jake, the hostage situation. How long did that last? And where did it go down inside the mall?

ELLISON: Well, it lasted anywhere -- you know, around three to four hours. He started shooting, apparently -- I mean, is accused of started shooting at 12:10, and then it was all over just before 4:00. So during that period, about three hours of that, was him in the Sam Goody shop with three hostages. The fourth hostage was a young man who was released right away, according to police documents.

GRACE: Now, what did he want? Why did he take hostages? Why did he start shooting?

ELLISON: Well, he told the hostages that he -- he told -- one of the hostages I talked to said that he -- you know, he wanted to get some attention and that he was upset over things that had happened to him early in his life, that he had been abused and, you know, sort of misused, and he was upset by that.

GRACE: Any idea...


ELLISON: ... the probable cause document says that he was seeking media attention, too.

GRACE: Oh, yes. OK. That`s the way to solve your problems, get media attention, by mass shooting at a mall. Take a listen to this.


COLSTON: The man standing out in the hallway in the middle of the mall, and he had an AK-47 and he had it down to his side. And he turned, and he turned back towards the J.C. Penney`s area. And I had already heard about four or five shots. And he shot about five or six times more, turned, and then he -- then he was probably looking west, and shot again four or five times. You know, he had a smile on his face, and this is what I could not believe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we heard the shots, we immediately just told everybody head for the back of the store because, at first, somebody thought it was firecrackers, and I said, No, those are gunshots.


GRACE: Can you imagine, the eyewitness says he had a smile on his face? Here in the studio with me, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

Hey, Elizabeth, could you throw up the rap sheet on this guy? This is his juvenile history -- `98, guilty, criminal trespass, probation, community service; `98 theft, nine days detention, probation, community service; `99 theft, 13 days detention, probation, community service; `99, trafficking stolen property -- that means selling it -- 24 days detention, six months probation, community service; March 3, 2003, burglary -- that means breaking in with the intent to commit a felony -- eight months, 12 days detention. And now mass shooting, I`m sure attempted murder, felony possession of a weapon. Why?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: And he wasn`t living with his family.


GRACE: No, he was renting a room from a friend.

LUDWIG: So there was probably some major disruption there. What we know about mass murderers is there`s a discrepancy between how they view themselves and how they view the world treats them, so that they feel that they should be treated better than the world is treating them. So when they lash out -- and perhaps this is why he was feeling so happy and gratified at the moment that he was doing the shooting is that he felt that he was in control. And when you can control other people, then it gives you the illusion, I`m in control of my own life, which, of course, is not the way it works.

GRACE: And very quickly, Lisa Wayne, I want you to summon up all the strength you have, every trick you`ve ever learned as a defense attorney. Give me your best shot.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no tricks here. I mean, this is a guy with a troubled mind and a lethal weapon. And you know, I mean, that`s a bad combination. And this is clearly, by the text messaging, it`s rantings of a madman. Something`s triggered it, Nancy. And you have a kid who`s not healthy, who has some mental health problems, clearly, and needs help, and we -- somebody -- he fell through the -- you know, through the cracks somewhere, in the juvenile system, I don`t know, but he fell through the cracks, and here he is.

GRACE: OK. Doug Burns, want to take a crack at it?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He was 13 years old in 1998, OK?

GRACE: Yes, I did learn counting in law school.

BURNS: Well...

GRACE: Let`s go to the mass shooting, OK?

BURNS: Yes. Are you suggesting that he should have gotten life imprisonment for that, though? That`s my point. So don`t...

GRACE: No, I want to talk to you about the mass shooting. What`s your defense?

BURNS: The defense is a psychiatric one, obviously. You don`t have to be a rocket scientist there. He`s got to be psychiatrically examined. There are just too many witnesses. It happened way too much in the open. And there are too many people who survived. by the way. So from a legal standpoint, very difficult case. It`s a psychiatric defense.

GRACE: Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Today, Catholic school teacher Sandra Geisel -- remember her -- sentenced to just six months behind bars for sex assault on a 16-year-old student. Geisel`s victim came forward after the Christian Brothers Academy, Albany, New York, caught Geisel with yet another male student.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant, David Ludwig, has been charged with two counts of criminal homicide, one count of kidnapping and one count of recklessly endangering another person. We have every reason to believe, at this point in time, with the evidence through the course of the investigation, this was premeditated, deliberate, intentional.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The presumed distance was probably five miles at speeds of 90-plus, 95. The driver was operating northbound on state road 39 at those speeds and traveling northbound in the southbound lane. State road 39 is a two-lane highway. He was -- when the highway was open, he was still proceeding in the wrong lane on the wrong side of the road. He was meeting vehicles head on, and at the last second, when he would run them into the ditch, he was swerving back over into his lane -- very reckless, very dangerous at that point.


GRACE: Eighteen-year-old David Ludwig, his 14-year-old girlfriend, Kara Borden, on the run for several days until apprehended nearly 600 miles away. He is now charged with gunning down the 14-year-old girl`s parents. And tonight, in stunning court documents I have in my hand, filed by the commonwealth, they are alleging this 14-year-old girl went willingly. Went willingly! I have the documents right here.

I`m going to go straight out to Brett Lovelace, reporter with "The Lancaster Intelligencer Journal." Brett, bring me up to date.

BRETT LOVELACE, "LANCASTER INTELLIGENCER JOURNAL": Nancy, this has been a blockbuster development in the case this afternoon. We just obtained a copy of this court filings late this afternoon, and I`m going to read you a quick excerpt from this. "Ludwig then opened the car door and Kara got into the car. Kara told Ludwig that she wanted to stay with him, and they drove west with the intent to," I quote, "get as far away as possible, get married, and start a new life."

GRACE: Now they`re starting a new life, all right, Brett, but not exactly the one they planned.

Everyone, again, just in. This is the commonwealth`s answer to the defendant`s motion for production, inspection, preservation of state`s evidence. That is referring to clothing, gunshot rounds, photos, fingerprints, documents, you name it. This is the state`s response back to the defense request, and in it, as Brett Lovelace just told you, disturbing information.

Go ahead, Brett. It`s my understanding that when he left the home, he went looking for her?

LOVELACE: He did. She ran out of the house before he did. She had a chance to see him shoot her mother. She continued to flee out of the house. He exits the house, doesn`t see her right away. He goes to the Volkswagen, gets in it, drives approximately 15 feet and then sees her running down the road toward him, flags him down, and then gets into the vehicle...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait...

LOVELACE: ... and they make off...

GRACE: ... wait, wait! That was not clear to me in this document. Are you telling me this girl basically chased after him and flagged him down to get in the car, after he`d just shot the father, I believe, in the back of the head, and the mother seated in a chair with a blanket over her legs?

LOVELACE: You`re exactly right.

GRACE: She flagged him down to go with him?

LOVELACE: You`re exactly right, Nancy. She did.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I demand an apology because at the very beginning, I was saying, Is she accomplice or is she a victim? And there was a huge uproar that she had to be a victim.

But that`s not true, Dr. Robi Ludwig. If this document is true, she chased the man down to go with him!

LUDWIG: Well, you could say learned helplessness, that she was an abused girlfriend.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) a defense? I`m not familiar with that one.

LUDWIG: I think it is in some cases, but I don`t know.


LUDWIG: I don`t know. But that, you know, if you`re abused, that somehow you are very much influenced by the person that you are dating, and/or you`re in shock. Or she could have felt shortchanged in life and attracted somebody who would actually murder her parents for her.

GRACE: And that`s not all tonight. I want to go to Ali Velshi, CNN reporter. Also tonight, we are learning that the two had been exchanging - - a 14-year-old girl, 18-year-old young man, exchanging photos, semi-nude, possibly nude, of each other. And there`s a home video, Ali, of him planning a home invasion, a deadly attack on another family. Now, how does the state go about proving that and extracting that from a computer?

ALI VELSHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, they`ve got a -- they`ve brought in an expert from the Lancaster Police Department, who, in the filing with the court, has outlined his experience. He`s got some training in extraction from computers, although my reading of this is not that they had to go through too much of a forensic effort to get stuff off of this computer. There seemed to be a lot of information that the police say and the investigators say was sitting right there on his computer, including a video, as you say, that outlines plans to attack another household.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will review the situation. We will determine whether any aggravating circumstances are present that would potentially justify capital punishment.


GRACE: Eighteen-year-old David Ludwig, accused of murdering his 14- year-old girlfriend`s mother and father. Tonight: Is she an accomplice or a suspect or a victim?

Very quickly, out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter. Jane, what was on those videos?

JANE-VELEZ-MITCHELL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, Nancy, you`ve already discussed the fact that in Ludwig`s home, they found more than 50 weapons. According to this 18-minute videotape found on Ludwig`s computer, he and a friend sit around with some of these weapons. They decide to leave, get in their car under the cover of darkness, go to another house, and they are heard plotting to raid that house and then kill all the occupants inside that house.

They ultimately decide there`s too much traffic around to pull off the scheme, but according to the friend who was interviewed by authorities, he told police this was not an isolated incident.

So you have disturbed young men with weapons. That seems to be the theme tonight. Why do they have all these weapons? That`s what I`d like to know.


SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Susan Hendricks. Here`s a look at your "Headline Prime Newsbreak" now.

Authorities in Pennsylvania say they`re dropping kidnapping charges against an 18-year-old man accused of shooting his girlfriend`s parents. That`s because investigators say the girl fled with him willingly. Police also say they found the handgun used in the murder under the driver`s seat in the suspect`s car.

On to Oregon now, where seven people on a Nike corporate jet are happy to be back on terra firma. That`s after a scare involving the plane`s landing gear. The jet circled the airport to burn off fuel for an emergency landing. Then the crew got the gear unstuck and touched down uneventfully.

So are higher energy prices leaving you a little short this holiday season? Well, maybe not. Two consumer groups say they expect holiday spending to rise around 5 percent above last year`s levels. However, a survey indicates 30 percent of Americans say they will spend less this year.

And that is the news for now. I`m Susan Hendricks. Back to NANCY GRACE.


SGT. DAVE BURSTIN, INDIANA POLICE SPOKESPERSON: Because she is a 14- year-old, as you`re aware, there has to be a responsible adult in Indiana for us to do any questioning with her. She has not been questioned.

And ultimately, she will be going back to Pennsylvania, and, whatever the processes they have, they will follow there. I can tell you that she suffered no physical harm and that she is alive and well at this time.


GRACE: And, according to these court documents just filed a couple of hours ago, she wasn`t not only unharmed. She chased down 18-year-old David Ludwig and begged to get into the car with him after he had shot her mother and her father.

Straight back to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter. I understand the homemade movie where Ludwig reportedly is planning a home invasion on another family, which, thank God, he didn`t carry out. But weren`t there nude or seminude photos exchanged between the two of them? Where were the parents when she was in her bedroom taking nude shots of herself and sending them online?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that`s a very good question, Nancy. And I think that is another commonality of all of this. Almost like all these teenagers are living secret lives via the Internet, via their cell phones, text messages.

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Jane, don`t say all teenagers. My parents knew if I was on the phone after 10:00. That was a felony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the technology has changed a lot since we were kids. We didn`t have text messages. Now these kids can communicate with each other. The parents have no idea what they`re saying.

And they don`t have the sophistication to be able to get on the blogs and get on the Web sites that these kids are maintaining. And so they`re leading essentially double lives that the parents are completely unaware of.

These were church-going parents home-schooling their children. Everything was supposed to be wholesome. Now you find out on this young man`s computer that there were pictures of this 14-year-old girl in various states of undress. And that`s all we know at this point.

But you can use your imagination to figure out what he was putting up on that computer.

GRACE: I`m not even imagining it, because it would be child pornography.


GRACE: Very quickly to Ali Velshi, CNN reporter. I understand there were his and her blogs, Ali.

VELSHI: Yes, they were more like these network Web sites. Friendster is one of them. They`re like a family tree of friends.

GRACE: Friendsters? Friendsters?

VELSHI: It`s how you meet people. It`s like I can get on a Web site, you can get on it, I can get on it. We can both join it, and I can meet your friend and you can meet my friends.

The idea is that we`re communicating with not absolute strangers. Somehow that`s seen as a little safer.

Except that, on hers, it said that she was 17. As soon as she went missing, it said that she was 14, because when it`s 14 it`s private. People can`t see it. There are 12 million American kids who have these pages, which are like blogs, where you can talk to other people.

GRACE: Wait, how many? How many?

VELSHI: Twelve million.

GRACE: Don`t they have jobs? Why do they have time to blog all day?

VELSHI: This is what kids are able to do these days. It`s a new method of communicating.

And, by and large, there`s something interesting, Nancy, about the idea that you`re communicating with people you have some connection to. It`s a friend of a friend or a friend of a friend or a friend or a friend. But I`ve got one of these. Somebody signed me up for one.

GRACE: Ali, Ali, you have a blog?

VELSHI: No, it`s not a blog. It`s a network. This idea that...

GRACE: You have a blog, don`t you?

VELSHI: No, no, I don`t have a blog.

GRACE: You`re on Friendsters.

VELSHI: I wish I had the time to blog.

GRACE: And there`s photos of you in states of undress.

VELSHI: No. That, I think, would be banned. But the thing is that it isn`t...


GRACE: I notice you don`t have on a coat.

VELSHI: It`s six degrees of separation. It`s six degrees of separation. The idea is that everybody is connected to you somehow. And somehow that allows you to start contacting people.

These two developed a relationship, whether it`s through their relationship online or otherwise. But remember one thing: The parents may have been churchgoing. On her Web site, she listed, I think as the number- one thing -- it`s there on the screen, you saw it a second ago -- Jesus, my church youth group.

This girl didn`t seem to be out there or having unnatural tendencies. She seemed like a normal kid who -- who knows?

GRACE: Well, I`m just wondering, to Harold Copus, former FBI agent -- he`s a forensic computer expert joining us out of Atlanta. Thank you for being with us, Harold.

How do police extract this off the computer? How does it get into court, if we get that far?

HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, what will happen is that the police will do a forensic of the hard drives. Envision that drive similar to a pie. A slice of that pie will contain the deletes, erasures; another slice will contain Web sites and e-mails.

And they specifically will want to look at those areas to see what these two have been talking about.

GRACE: But how do you recreate that? For instance -- and, of course, Kara Borden at this juncture is not an official suspect. All we know tonight, recently filed documents in the last couple of hours, actually, the state says, the commonwealth says, she chased down 18-year-old David Ludwig to try to get in the car after he shot her father in the back of the head and her mother as she was sitting in a chair with a blanket over her legs.

This is just-in evidence suggests otherwise about 14-year-old Kara Borden. But should it go to a jury trial, Harold Copus, how does the jury see this? How is this recreated?

COPUS: Well, what happens is that they`ll do graphs. And they will be able to show -- we just had one for a case. And they`ll lift off the graphs for you, and they will show it so that you sit there in the jury box. Maybe you`re not a computer expert, but it makes it real easy to view.

GRACE: Can they see it then? Can they pull it, extract it, recreate it, and show them, for instance, this homemade video Brett Lovelace was telling us about, where he was planning another home invasion? He had all these guns, and they were going out, jumping in the car in the dark of night, to attack another family, reportedly? Can the jury see that?

COPUS: Well, certainly they can do that. And I`ll suggest to you, Nancy, they`re going to go for that friend that was participating in that. His computer will probably be seized, also.

GRACE: Hey, cops, if you haven`t done it already, take a listen to Harold Copus. You`re dead on. Harold is a former FBI agent forensic computer expert.

And now to our psychotherapist. You`ve got these seemingly normal kids. They go to church with their parents, they`re home-schooled, they`re both making good grades. They met at a home-schooled event.

Now they`re swapping semi-naked, naked photos of each other online. I mean, when you see your 14-year-old girl go in the bathroom with -- what do you say, a tripod, that should give it away there`s a problem.

LUDWIG: Right. And these parents actually were very involved. And they said, "Listen, you know, we don`t like who you`re dating and we want to put an end to it." And it just goes to show you that in adolescence, adolescents really are flirting with separation and becoming their own person.

And in some cases, if an adolescent feels that their parent is too controlling, or too intrusive, or, in fact, that is the case, sometimes it interferes with them integrating different aspects of their personality.

GRACE: Wait. Are you trying to blame this on the parents when they home-schooled them?

LUDWIG: No, I`m not saying that.

GRACE: Don`t even go there. I think you are.

LUDWIG: But, in some cases, certain children have a difficult time integrating the good, Jesus-loving child person that they are, versus the other sexual...

GRACE: What do you mean integrating?

LUDWIG: It means that you as a person can say, "You know what? I have my good days; I have my bad days. I`m an intellectual person. I`m a professional woman." You`re able to integrate all the various aspects of your personality.

For an adolescent -- and certain adolescents -- that`s very difficult to do so that there`s a split. And that`s what happened in this girl`s case. At least, if we look at her blogs.

GRACE: Well, then you`ve got Ludwig, as well. Both of them...

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: ... as Ali Velshi described, had a normal life, but then this double life.

To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, specifically I think of it in terms of a criminal trial. What can I prove? What are the correct charges? What will the jury do?

Pat, what do you make of the videotape that allegedly shows Ludwig planning another attack on a -- forget about their nude photos; who cares? Let`s talk about the attack, the planned attack on another family, and the two dead bodies. We just had the funeral service for the mother and father.

BROWN: Exactly. He`s not going to be able to get out of any of this. What he`s shown is he had ideation for a long time, not against her parents, against...

GRACE: Well, what do you -- explain what you mean by ideation.

BROWN: Ideation?


BROWN: We don`t do something just -- something doesn`t just pop into our head and we just do it and we never thought about it before. He has been going down this road a long time, a very dark road.

But he wants to, like the guy up there in the shopping mall, he wants to get out his anger against society, against his family, against everyone. So he is putting on that trench coat, he`s going out and shooting people, just like a school shooting, like Columbine, or a mass murderer going up in a tower.

This is his ideation. He wants to kill. And he tried once, didn`t go well. Now he`s got another opportunity, and it worked this time. So he`s going to a very hard time saying, you know, "It was just an insane idea," because he`s been thinking about it for a long time.

So it`s premeditated as heck. And he is not going to be coming out of prison any time soon once he gets there.

GRACE: To defense attorney Doug Burns. Doug, here`s the thing: When he went to the home, Doug, he had a gun down his pants, in his belt, reportedly, and he had a duffel bag or a pillowcase outside with another couple of guns in that. There`s your premeditation, proving premeditation right there.

But, Doug, you as a defense attorney have been on the other side of the courtroom from me many, many years. I would sit there and just stare at the defendant when the jury wasn`t looking and think, "Why?"

But the prosecution doesn`t have to prove why. In this case, Doug, don`t you think the jury`s going to want to know why?

BURNS: Absolutely. I couldn`t agree more. This is going to be a hard case to defend, Nancy. Let`s face it. But what they`re going to do is, they`re going to pursue stuff, like change of venue, undue publicity.

But I`ll tell you what: If they`re unsuccessful, try to knock out the confession. But if none of that works, man, I`ll tell you what, even Perry Mason is going to have a tough time with this case.

GRACE: And, you know, Ellie, isn`t Pennsylvania a death penalty state?


GRACE: OK, 18 is the cutoff by the U.S. Supreme Court, unless they have a higher cutoff. He`s looking at a death penalty on a mass murder.

Lisa Wayne, do you predict that -- OK, this girl, 14-year-old Kara Borden, has not been named as a suspect. But now we have state documents we just got, as I walked to the set tonight, claiming that she chased Ludwig down to get in the car with him after he murdered her parents.

What do you think, Lisa, cut a deal with her?

WAYNE: Yes, I think that`s what they do. But, you know, if I`m defending her, I`m going to go after the fact that, you know, duress, it can be a powerful way to coerce someone into doing something they normally wouldn`t do.

And this kid, she was under duress, that she wasn`t stable, that she`s a vulnerable victim for him. And I`m going to go after that, that she didn`t really have a choice and that she felt like she was going after her rescuer.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): More than eight years have passed since the murder of businessman David Coffin, Jr. In December of 1996, the Buckhead resident was found shot to death in his burning home. Whoever killed Coffin also stole his Porsche and set it on fire.


GRACE: Welcome back. A man who once ran for governor in California now arrested for murder back in 1996. Let`s go straight to Elise Ackerman, "San Jose Mercury News."

Bring us up-to-date, friend.

ELISE ACKERMAN, "SAN JOSE MERCURY NEWS": Well, he was arrested Friday morning in Palo Alto. And he has been charged with murder in Atlanta, Georgia. And he will face charges -- they`re extradition charges -- tomorrow morning in a court in Santa Clara County.

GRACE: Well, what was the motive, if there is one?

ACKERMAN: The police believe the motive was jealousy, which is one of the most common motives for murder, and that he was jealous because his estranged wife, Megan, was dating David Coffin.

GRACE: Very quickly to Detective Natasha Powers of Palo Alto Police Department, joining us from California, the murder went down in `96. What took so long to put the case together?

DET. NATASHA POWERS, PALO ALTO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes, ma`am. Well, you know, the case was put together by Detective Ricky Chambers (ph) right after it happened. And they did make an arrest back in Atlanta.

And for reasons that I`m not aware of, the Fulton County district attorney`s office chose not to follow through with prosecution of the case.

GRACE: And the actual murder took place where?

POWERS: In David Coffin`s home.

GRACE: And explain to me the mode of death.

POWERS: I believe he was shot once. And then I know that his home was set ablaze.

GRACE: What has been your involvement in the case, Natasha?

POWERS: We were contacted by the Fulton County D.A.`s office back in April to help them and continue their investigation. Back then, we interviewed all of his friends, coworkers, even his girlfriend at the time. And after that, assistance, they went away, and we hadn`t heard from them until last week.

GRACE: To Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter, what`s the new evidence that brought about this arrest?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s really fascinating about this, Nancy, apparently there is no new evidence, a re-examination, rather, of the old evidence.

It was feared originally that much of the evidence had really been destroyed in the tremendous blaze after the shooting death, that that evidence had just been completely wiped out.

Well, of course, now there is new DNA technology. And one suspects that they went back and looked at the evidence with the new technology we have nowadays and came up with some new information based on the original evidence.

GRACE: Now, was Davis and his wife, Megan, officially divorced when Coffin was actually killed?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. They were estranged, and they got divorced about a year later.

But it is believed, as one of your other guests mentioned, that jealousy was the motive. It`s believed that this victim had a romantic relationship with the estranged wife who was not yet divorced. And that, according to authorities, is why he allegedly did what he did.

GRACE: Jane Velez, will anyone be able to claim that $300,000 reward the family was offering?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s considered one of the highest rewards ever. This family, of course, very, very wealthy. This victim was the heir to a New England chemical fortune. And I think it`s unclear because, usually, you give a reward for new information, somebody comes forward with something, a bombshell. And in this case, there is no bombshell.

GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, what does it say to you that the perp in this case burned down the victim`s house and then took the extra step of burning down the car, as well?

BROWN: Well, I think what`s really funny about it is he claimed, "Hey, the same thing happened to me. My own porch went on fire." You wonder, did he have soot on his hands? Was that his explanation?

He really wanted to do this guy in. And he did everything he could. But, you know, covering it up is a little difficult. So this guy`s apparently a pathological liar. He`s been on the `net saying, "I`ve never been married." And we know he has been married.

So he`s just spinning one story after another. He obviously did a good enough job at that point in time of covering up and lying that he got away with it. But hopefully the new evidence will finally put him where he belongs.

GRACE: And to Detective Powers, where was the car in conjunction to the home that was burned?

POWERS: (OFF-MIKE) Porsche was when it was burned.

GRACE: What?

POWERS: I am not aware of where the car was.

GRACE: Because if the car was not in a garage, it`s very obviously an arson, when you`ve got the car in one location being burned up and the home -- what, Ellie, where was the car?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (OFF-MIKE) County, the next county over, burnt.

GRACE: So it was very far away. So the guy goes the extra mile, Robi Ludwig, of burning down the car. And what about him running for governor? Didn`t he think all of this would come out in the wash?

LUDWIG: That`s the interesting thing about a lot of killers is that they justify it in their own head. So they basically construct their own reality where they convince themselves that they are a good person and they had valid reason for doing what they did.

GRACE: Doug Burns, don`t you hate it when your clients draw attention to themselves after they allegedly commit murder, and arson, and then try to murder a car, as well, they run from governor and just put it all out there?

BURNS: Well, he dropped out of the race, Nancy, due to the impendency of the investigation.

GRACE: Don`t care if he dropped out. He ran for governor, man!

BURNS: But I tell you what. They didn`t have the case nine years ago. The issue is: Do they have it now or are they just taking a shot?

Honestly, I think it`s a defensible case, as horrific as it seems. You know, arson is a crime where a lot of the evidence is destroyed. This one`s going to be defensible, Nancy.

GRACE: What a coincidence, the house and the car burns down the same evening.

Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Kenya Wright, wanted for allegedly shooting 25-year-old Indianapolis police officer Michael Antonelli yesterday during a traffic stop.

Antonelli survived but lost his eye. It could end his police career. Wright, 26, 5`11", 190 pounds, braided black hair, brown eyes. We want to find this guy who took a shot at a cop, Kenya Wright. Call Indianapolis police, 317-327-3475.

Local news next for some of you. We`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the vegan diet baby manslaughter case, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Please stay with us, everyone, as we remember tonight Tyler Troyer, just 21, an American hero.


GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want to help in our way, solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Take a look at 14-year-old Cinthia, Arellanes, last seen in El Mirage, Arizona, September 9. There`s still time.

If you have info, please call the El Mirage police department, 623- 933-1341, or go online, Help us.

Welcome back, everyone. A candidate for governor in California charged with murder. Very quickly out to Elise Ackerman, "San Jose Mercury News."

You actually interviewed the defendant, Scott Winfield Davis. What did he say?

ACKERMAN: Well, he called me after we ran a story saying that the Atlanta police were in town and they were looking for him.

GRACE: What did he say?

ACKERMAN: He said, "I am innocent, and if they have something, they should charge me, and they should stop harassing my friends and family."

GRACE: You know, Lisa Wayne, defense attorney, be careful what you ask for, for you will surely get it. They went right ahead and arrested him.

WAYNE: You know what, Nancy? If I were this guy`s lawyer, I`d waive extradition. I`d go back to Atlanta, and I`d say, "Bring it on. You didn`t have it nine years ago and you don`t have it now."

So, you know, that`s what I would do if I were him. I`d say, "Let`s do it," because it doesn`t sound to me like there`s anything new here.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Lisa? The reality is he doesn`t have a lot of choice. People get extradited, whether they want to do it that day or wait a month. They will get extradited home.

But, Lisa Wayne, very quickly, I think you may have a point; nine years is a long time to sit on a case before you prosecute.

WAYNE: I think so, Nancy. And the problem is it really gives the defense a lot of room to move, in terms of reasonable doubt, because, unless it`s some real new DNA test that`s come down, you know, he has a good defense.

GRACE: And just a few seconds left, Dr. Robi, also, witnesses tend to have blurred memories. You lose witnesses.

LUDWIG: That`s right.

GRACE: The case can go dead.

LUDWIG: Absolutely. I mean, really, the evidence is not clear-cut. And this guy is a very good liar. So he`s very glib and who knows...


GRACE: He`s a politician, Robi.

LUDWIG: It`s interesting what he wanted to be.

GRACE: Everybody, thank you. But I want to thank all of my guests tonight. My biggest thank you, again, for you for being with us, inviting us into your homes.

Coming up next, headlines from around the world. Tomorrow night right here, a cold case of a sweetheart murder re-ignited and headed to trial in Atlanta.

A special good night from in the studio, my Court TV friend and colleague Jean Casarez here visiting and her sister-in-law, Elvira. What a pleasure.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Man, what a Monday. Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.


© 2007 Cable News Network.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us. Site Map.
Offsite Icon External sites open in new window; not endorsed by
Pipeline Icon Pay service with live and archived video. Learn more
Radio News Icon Download audio news  |  RSS Feed Add RSS headlines