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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
President Bush Sell Iraq War; Scientology's War Against Psychiatry; Movie Doomsday Weather Scenarios Becoming Reality?
Aired November 30, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
The president said Americans deserve a plan for victory in Iraq. He tried to deliver one today. But do the facts on the ground really back him up?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: The president sells the war, saying Iraqi troops are getting better faster.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Iraqi forces have made real progress. Now there are over 120 Iraqi army and police combat battalions in the fight against the terrorists.
ANNOUNCER: But is that really true? Tonight, how come the president's assessment of Iraqi troops is so much rosier than some reports from the ground?
Tom Cruise's latest claim? The star Scientologist now says he saved nearly a half-million children from psychiatric drugs. What is he talking about? Tonight, we investigate the Church of Scientology's war with psychiatry.
And killer hurricanes, tornadoes and blizzards -- could the years ahead be even worse? We will tell you why some scientists say doomsday scenarios in movies could become reality.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is ANDERSON COOPER 360. Live from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: And thanks for joining us tonight.
President Bush lays out the plan for victory in Iraq. How realistic is it? We will check the facts in a moment.
First, here are the headlines.
For the first time in five years, the U.S. Supreme Court today dealt with the volatile issue of abortion. It heard arguments in two cases, one of them concerning abortion protests, the other concerning a New Hampshire law requiring parental permission for any minor wanting an abortion, unless the minor's life is in danger.
Court recordings indicate the justices are at odds over the New Hampshire case -- a ruling not expected until late June of next year.
The DEA has announced the arrest of 78 people accused of being connected to a Colombian heroin ring that allegedly used artwork, furniture, and clothing, of all things, to smuggle drugs into the U.S. The arrests were part of a year-long investigation called Operation High Step, which got its name because some drugs were found in dancing shoes.
In the Library of Congress, the question today was, "What's that smell?" Its main building was evacuated for three-and-a-half-hours because of a suspicious odor. The fumes were later traced to a rust remover solvent being used in the building's basement.
And don't tell Tropical Storm Epsilon that the hurricane season ends today. The storm is gaining strength over the Central Atlantic, could become a hurricane soon. No need to worry, though. Epsilon poses no threat to land.
We begin tonight with the war. Two-and-a-half years into it, the president today tried to lay out an exit strategy. The question is, is the strategy real or mirage built on wishful thinking and desert sand?
In a moment, a reality check from the battlefield -- first, though, what the president said.
Here's CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With Iraqi elections a little over two weeks away, President Bush is trying to rally American support.
BUSH: America will not run in the face of car bombers and assassins so long as I am your commander in chief.
MALVEAUX: But battling growing criticism of the Iraq war and calls for U.S. troops to come home, Mr. Bush also signaled an eventual withdrawal.
BUSH: We will increasingly move out of Iraqi cities, reduce the number of bases from which we operate, and conduct fewer patrols and convoys.
MALVEAUX: But, keeping with his strategy, he refused to say when.
BUSH: These decisions about troop levels will be driven by the conditions on the ground in Iraq and the good judgment of our commanders, not by artificial timetables set by politicians in Washington.
(APPLAUSE)
MALVEAUX: The president's speech before the U.S. Naval Academy was billed by the White House as the first in a series of four, aimed at better explaining the U.S. mission in Iraq. But some dismissed it as little more than administration spin.
SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: I was disappointed. The president relied too much upon rhetoric, upon a laundry list of tasks accomplished, but not a coherent view of where we are realistically and where we must go to succeed.
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Well, the speech was like the Sherlock Holmes dog that didn't bark. It didn't say a lot of new things. He did not lay out an aggressive or bold new plan for Iraq.
MALVEAUX: But the president did give new details about the state of Iraqi security forces and acknowledged shortcomings in their initial training.
BUSH: The civil defense forces did not have sufficient firepower or training. They proved to be no match for an enemy armed with machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars. So, the approach was adjusted.
MALVEAUX: Ahead of the president's speech, the White House released a 38-page declassified document on its Web site entitled "National Strategy For Victory in Iraq" to show Americans the administration has a plan. The administration's hope is that that plan will generate some successes before the U.S. congressional midterm elections.
GERGEN: The window is going -- is closing on him already, and it's going to come slamming shut pretty hard as -- on the eve of the elections in 2006.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Now, some moderate Republicans have already been publicly calling for a clear Iraq strategy from the president, while others, noting Mr. Bush's 36 percent approval rating, have been distancing themselves from Mr. Bush altogether -- Anderson.
COOPER: So, you say this is the first of several speeches we are going to hear. When is the next one? And -- and -- I mean, is it the same theme over and over?
MALVEAUX: It's not the same theme over and over, necessarily. He's going to be focusing on the economics. He's going to be focusing on the political progress as well, the ways in which the United States will be working with Iraqi officials to make sure that those elections mid-December go smoothly. This is something that we're told is going to continue right up to the day, right up to the eve of those elections -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Suzanne Malveaux, thanks.
MALVEAUX: Sure. COOPER: The president went into great detail about the capabilities of the Iraqi security forces, in particular, saying the recent battle of Tal Afar was a sign of how strong the Iraqi military has become. The president says Iraqi forces led that battle, but our next guest remembers it very differently.
He was there on the front lines and says Iraqis fought, yes, but they certainly didn't lead.
Michael Ware is "TIME" magazine's Baghdad bureau chief.
I talked to him earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So, Michael, the president made a point today to -- to come out and say that the Iraqis, the soldiers, the ones -- those who are being trained are better than they -- they have ever been doing before. What's your assessment?
MICHAEL WARE, BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF, "TIME": Well, they might be doing better than they have ever done before.
But I have to tell you, that benchmark is not set very high. I have been in combat with, I can say with some confidence, every type of Iraqi security force there is. These guys are a long way from ready. I mean, in fact, I -- I have had a very senior officer here in Baghdad say to me that there's never going to be a point where these guys will be able to stand up against the insurgency on their own.
COOPER: One of the things that Army General George Casey had said back in September, that there's only one Iraqi unit that's at a level-one readiness. Level one is fully capable of maintaining operations on their own.
What the president today is, he said -- quote -- "Now there are over 120 Iraqi army and police combat battalions in the fight against the terrorists."
There's a big difference between being in the fight against terrorists and being fully combat ready.
WARE: Oh, absolutely.
And -- and, really, what so many of these forces are, are just numbers on paper. These are guys who have been churned out in a three- to five-week training session, where they become familiar with shooting a Kalashnikov rifle and -- and learn how to do basic patrolling.
Then they're wrapped in a uniform and they sit on a street corner or a checkpoint or actually go out on raids. And these guys, the traditional Iraqi culture is that you -- you spend as much time at home you as you -- as you possibly can. So, if these are troops who are far from their home base, they spend weeks every month traveling to and from their -- their home cities. So, these guys are getting very little real training.
COOPER: The president said 80 Iraqi battalions are fighting side by side with coalition forces, and about 40 others are taking the lead in the fight. The soldiers, the American soldiers, who you have spent so much time with, do they have confidence in the Iraqis who are apparently taking the lead in this fight or standing side by side with them?
WARE: By and large, no, not at all, Anderson.
I mean, there's -- there's some units that they have performed better than others. There's -- there's other occasions where an American unit and their counterparts develop a -- a very particular rapport. But, otherwise, no -- the American soldiers can really have very little faith in their Iraqi comrades.
I mean, I was in a battle just two weeks ago where some of the Iraqis refused to fire when we came under attack. And this is a man who, in the face of an attack, just puts down his weapon and curls up in a ball. I mean, I have seen that on -- on many, many occasions.
COOPER: The president also said today that, in the battle of Tal Afar, the assault in the north of Iraq, that he said it was led primarily by Iraqi security forces, 11 Iraqi battalions, backed by five coalition battalions providing support.
WARE: With the greatest respect to the president, that's completely wrong and is extraordinarily misleading.
COOPER: How do you know that?
WARE: I was in that battle from the very beginning to the very end.
I was with Iraqi units, right there on the front line, as they were battling with al Qaeda. They were not leading. They were being led by the U.S. Green Beret special forces with them, Green Berets who were following an American plan of attack, who were advancing with these Iraqi units as and when they were told to do so by the American battle planners. The Iraqis led nothing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: A very different view from the president's speech.
The question is, tonight, where do we go from here? That's the debate going on among powerful lawmakers on Capitol Hill. I am going to speak with two of them, Representative John Murtha and Senator John Warner, coming up, two military vets who have strong views on the Iraq war, differing views. We will dissect the president's speech.
Also ahead tonight, Tom Cruise fires another shot against antidepressants, all in the name of Scientology. We will take look at the Scientologists' war with psychiatry -- those stories and more when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: In today's speech, President Bush praised the efforts in Iraq and cited what he calls real progress by Iraqi forces.
Well, tonight, we have been putting the president's words to the test, trying to find out if what he said is really true to what's happening on the ground. In just a few minutes, you are going to hear from Senator John Warner, a Navy vet who says he would willingly serve with the Iraqi forces.
But, first, my interview with Congressman John Murtha, retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service, a Democrat who supported the Iraq war, but now wants U.S. troops out. I talked about the president's speech earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Congressman Murtha, the president said today, "Now there are over 120 Iraqi army and police combat battalions in the fight against the terrorists."
He painted a pretty optimistic view of the training thus far of the Iraqi forces. Do you believe him?
REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, let me tell you something.
I -- I -- a year ago -- over a year ago, I sent a letter to the president. And the reply was, we have got 200,000 troops trained. You know, just because these guys say it doesn't make it so.
What I measure progress is, the electricity, which is below pre- war, which oil production is below pre-war -- and, of course, that was supposed to pay for this -- this deployment. And third is 60 percent unemployment. And, then, the incidents have gone from 150 a week to 600 a week. They don't mention this kind of stuff.
All they talk is about is something you really can't measure.
COOPER: You have called for what some said was a withdrawal. You say it's a redeployment of forces, outside the -- the theater of operations, a 60,000-man force or so that would go back in the event of a direct threat.
But, if you agree that Iraqi security forces are not up to the task at this point, can America really pull out or redeploy, whatever you want to call it, in good conscience?
MURTHA: Well, let me -- let me tell you something.
The military won a victory. They toppled Saddam Hussein. They -- they toppled -- they -- they destroyed his army. Now, the -- you have got to -- you have got to look at insurgency vs. terrorism. There's a separation. They keep trying to tie the two together. There's -- there -- they are not tied together. In Iraq, you have got an insurgency. The minute we leave there, the insurgency is going to be reduced. Just because they say it's not going to be reduced doesn't make it so. All the things they have said turned out not to be true. So, I'm convinced the Iraqis can handle this by themselves. It's an old civilization. They have been around a long time.
It would be like the French staying in the United States during the -- in 1776. They got out of the country. We had to settle it ourselves. It took a civil war. That's up to the Iraqis. We can't let the Iraqis decide when we get out. We can't let the military decide when we get out. The -- the politicians in Washington, the president of the United States, has to make a decision here.
And his plan is not a plan. It is all rhetoric.
COOPER: Do you believe that the -- as the president said today in his speech, that this has become the central front in the war on terror? Whether or not it should have, whether or not it had to be, do you believe it is?
MURTHA: I do not believe that at all.
It -- it -- we had nothing to do with terrorism in Iraq. Iraq is an insurgency. Terrorism is what we found in Afghanistan. Now, I went -- in 1991, I -- I went to Saudi Arabia and talked to the -- King Fahd. I was the chairman of the committee at the time. King Fahd said, I want you out of here as soon as this war is over.
Now, this is the first Gulf. I told the State Department this. They -- they paid no attention to it. We stayed there. And bin Laden attacked us. And that was terrorism, because he said we're on sacred ground.
Eighty percent of the people in -- in Iraq want us out of there. Forty-five percent say that -- that it's -- it's all right to attack Americans. And their official communique said the same thing.
The politicians are talking against the United States, because they -- and they say they want an exit strategy. We need a plan for the Iraqis to take over. The Iraqis can't make that decision. We have to make that decision. And we -- we have to make it in a -- in a way that allows the Iraqis the incentive to take over their own country and -- and make their own destiny.
COOPER: My final question to you, do you think the president was -- was being honest today in his assessment of the Iraqi forces? I ask you this because, in his speech, he talked about the battle of Tal Afar. And he said that it was led primarily by Iraqi security forces, 11 Iraqi battalions, backed by five coalition battalions providing support.
I just talked to "TIME" magazine's bureau chief, who was in the battle from the beginning to the end. He basically just laughed when he heard that. He said, from the get-go, it was an American operation, it was an American battle plan, it was American military firepower that won that, and that was an American victory and -- and America should be proud of the victory, but it wasn't an Iraqi victory.
MURTHA: Yes. Well, and that's what I keep hearing, these -- these the dishonest assessment.
Somebody's giving this guy bad advice. And -- and he just won't listen to the facts. The facts are 60 percent unemployment. Energy and -- and oil production are below pre-war level. Every measurement I see is -- is lack of progress, rather than more progress.
And -- and to keep -- keep having Americans get killed, when there's lack of progress and no plan, is just unjustified.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Of course, others disagree with Congressman Murtha's view of -- of how you measure progress. A good number of people view this war very differently.
Republican and many Democratic lawmakers believe that Murtha's plan for withdrawal is simply dangerous, that it's going to lead to chaos in Iraq and security threats here at home. The president echoed that assertion in his speech today.
Earlier, I spoke with the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Republican Senator John Warner.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Senator Warner, several critics of the president had said today that -- that they didn't feel he was really frank in -- in his interpretation of how the Iraqi forces are doing.
I want to read you something the president said. Today, the president said: "There are over 120 Iraqi army and police combat battalions in the fight against the terrorists."
But, back in September, just this recent September, Army General George Casey said that there was only one Iraqi unit that was fully independent, fully able to carry out operations on its own. That's about 700 troops. Was -- was the president accurate?
SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: Yes. The president was very accurate today. And this is a subject that I have spent a lot of time on, as recently as this week, with the deputy secretary of defense and others.
One battalion stands out there. Fine. But what the president said, there are a number of battalions, eight or 10 of them, which are working right alongside our forces. And while they're not fully and independently capable of operating, they're excellent and trustworthy and fighting hard with our troops today.
COOPER: You served in the Navy in the last year of World War II. Would you be in a foxhole with the average Iraqi troop?
WARNER: I would be willing to serve alongside those Iraqi forces, yes.
COOPER: You know, we -- this is not one of those shows where we take sides. I really try to just look at facts on the ground.
And -- and the president, in his speech, talked about the battle of Tal Afar. And, in his speech today, he said that it was led primarily by Iraqi security forces, 11 Iraqi battalions, backed by five coalition battalions providing support. He used this, as compared to the battle of Fallujah, as an example of how much better the Iraqis are doing.
Earlier, I talked to "TIME" magazine's Michael Ware, the -- the -- the Baghdad bureau chief, who was embedded during the entire battle. He -- I want to play you what he said about the Iraqi units he saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARE: I was in that battle from the very beginning to the very end.
I was with Iraqi units, right there on the front line, as they were battling with al Qaeda. They were not leading. They were being led by the U.S. Green Beret special forces with them, Green Berets who were following an American plan of attack, who were advancing with these Iraqi units as and when they were told to do so by the American battle planners. The Iraqis led nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Do you think the president was correct, in saying that this was an Iraqi victory, that the Iraqis were leading the way?
WARNER: Well, I will let the commanders sort that out.
But I -- first, I respect those journalists that embed themselves. And I accept, as a credible description, what you have just put forward. But you didn't hear him say they cut and run, like they did in Fallujah. You didn't hear them say that the Iraqis dropped their arms. He said they were fighting.
Now, it may well have been that the battle plan was drawn up by the coalition forces, probably the U.S. leading, and that the Iraqi commanders contributed to that. But who was on the point at any one time, whether it's an Iraqi platoon leader or an American platoon leader, I assure you that, today, there is a partnership in these battles.
COOPER: Just -- just for accuracy, he did say that at least one Iraqi unit had to be removed from the battlefield after their commander got into an argument with U.S. military commanders.
But -- but, in general, you feel confident that the Iraqis are moving in the right direction. What more needs to be done, though, in terms of getting -- getting them up and running?
WARNER: I'm concerned about the equipment.
Some of these Iraqi units are still operating with equipment which is not up to the par of what we have. Now, I'm not suggesting we have to give them all brand-new equipment. But I'm urging the department to put equal stress on equipping with training.
Training is going quite well. Once General Petraeus -- and he's a man that should be given great credit -- he turned this whole thing around six months ago. And there's been enormous progress in the last six months. And I expect an equal, if not more progress in the coming months.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: That was Senator John Warner.
A terrifying drama played out 12 stories above a busy Denver street today, horrifying onlookers below -- coming up, we will tell you how it all ended.
And superstar Scientologist Tom Cruise, did you hear what he said now about kids and psychiatric drugs? We will show you his latest comments and investigate the Church of Scientology. What do they really have against psychiatry? We will ask a church member coming up.
Around the U.S. and the world, this is 360.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the hours after the 1996 bombing in Atlanta's Olympic Park, Security Guard Richard Jewell was recognized for his courageous act.
RICHARD JEWELL, SECURITY GUARD: We got about 150 people off the grass area right directly in front of the bomb before it exploded.
PHILLIPS: One person was killed in the bombing, and more than 100 were injured. Jewell was credited with saving lives and was instantly hailed as a hero.
But his 15 minutes of fame turned into what he claimed a nightmare. Jewell was wrongly linked to the bombing and became the target of incessant media scrutiny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you do it?
JEWELL: No, sir. I didn't do this.
PHILLIPS: Twelve weeks later, he was cleared by the FBI. Jewell turned the table on several media outlets, including CNN, and filed a series of lawsuits, in which many of them settled.
Nine years later, Eric Rudolph confessed to the Olympic Park bombing. And Richard Jewell finally feels vindicated.
JEWELL: Well, it begins a new chapter in my life, with -- with, hopefully, some closure in the case.
PHILLIPS: Jewell is now a police officer in Pendergrass, Georgia.
JEWELL: Firemen, E-mails, police officers, we just want to be remembered for doing a good job. That's -- that's what I did that night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tom Cruise lashes out again against depressants. We will investigate Scientology and its war with psychiatry coming up.
But, first, Erica Hill from Headline News joins us with some of the other stories right now.
Hey, Erica.
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Anderson.
Just 15 percent of Americans think President Bush is doing a very good job handling the war in Iraq. Those are the findings from a new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll taken today. Twenty-nine percent of respondents said he was doing a good job, while a quarter said his handling of the war is poor. Twenty-nine percent characterized it as very poor.
Meantime, President Bush's Supreme Court nominee, Samuel Alito, laid out a methodical strategy to undermine legalized abortion when he was a lawyer in the Reagan administration. That comes from a 20-year- old memo released today, where Alito suggested ways to -- quote -- "advance the goals of bringing about the eventual overruling of the landmark case Roe vs. Wade."
In France, the world's first partial face transplant -- surgeons say they successfully replaced the nose, chin and lips of a 38-year- old woman with the lower face of another woman who had been declared brain-dead. The patient was disfigured after a dog attacked her.
And, in Denver, Colorado, talk about a perilous day at work. It really makes you want to be a window-washer now -- their plight caught on tape. A boom supporting their platform collapsed, leaving them hanging 12 stories above ground. Firefighters broke through the windows to save them -- apparently, a very windy day for window- washing.
COOPER: Man.
HILL: I would not have done well in that situation, Anderson.
COOPER: Unbelievable.
HILL: Don't know about you.
COOPER: Unbelievable.
All right, Erica, thanks. We will see you again in about 30 minutes.
Tom Cruise has a new bone to pick with psychiatrists. He's boasting that he has helped think nearly half-a-million kids off of meds. Tonight, we reveal what Scientologists don't like about psychiatry. You're going to hear from a church member.
Also tonight, are we on the brink of a mini ice age? Some experts say things could be getting much colder in some parts of the world. We will tell you what makes them so concerned.
From America and around the world, this is 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight a surprising new claim from actor and super star scientologist Tom Cruise. You probably know Cruise led something of a crusade this year against psychiatric drugs. Apparently he is not done yet. Last night, before Barbara Walters asked Cruise regretting anything he said so far. Here's his response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM CRUISE, ACTOR: You look at -- you know, what has occurred over this past year where you have the kind of labels that have been put on these psychiatric drugs. Since I talked out about it, over 465,000 children have come off these antidepressants so I think it is exactly the opposite. It's been a successful summer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Cruise saying he helped get almost half a million kids off antidepressants claiming credit for a drop in prescriptions that occurred after the FDA issued a public health advisory last year warning that antidepressants may be linked to an increased risk of suicide in children and adults and this, of course, just the latest statement by Cruise, who may you may recall told the "Today Show's" Matt Lauer he opposes kids taking Ritalin and anybody taking any antidepressants or any form of psychiatric drug.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUISE: You don't even -- you're glib. You don't know Ritalin is. If you start talking about chemical imbalance, you have to evaluate and read the research papers on how they came up with these theories, Matt. OK? That's what I've done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's what he's done. Cruise has said the antidepressants and psychiatric medications are dangerous, especially for children. For Cruise and the Church of Scientology, it is not just a debate but it's a war, really, against psychiatry. Tonight, we want to give you both sides of the battle. We begin with Bruce Wiseman, he is the U.S. National President of Citizens' Commission on Human Rights, a scientologist group dedicated to fighting with it calls "psychiatric violations of human rights." I spoke to him on an earlier edition of 360.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Tom Cruise keeps saying that he knows the history of psychiatry and he opposes it. And you do, too. Why?
BRUCE WISEMAN, SCIENTOLOGIST: Well, one needs to just look at what psychiatrists do. The Citizens' Commission on Human Rights was founded in 1969 to investigate and expose psychiatric abuse, psychiatric violations of human rights. At that time, Anderson, patients were warehoused in mental hospitals, they were similar to concentrations hospitals. CCHR was founded, the church recognized this was an area of abuse that needed reform.
COOPER: Well, what is the problem with psychiatry today in your estimation?
WISEMAN: The problem with psychiatry today is that it's a fraud. Psychiatry pretends to be a science when in fact t is not. Psychiatry ...
COOPER: The same criticism leveled against scientology, that it is all based on pseudoscience and that it's a fraud.
WISEMAN: Scientology is a religion. It deals with the spirit of man. Psychiatry is a materialistic practice that pretends to be a science. Do you know, Anderson, I think it is important that the audience know that so-called psychiatric mental disorders are voted into their billing bible. There's no science here. None whatsoever. They vote. This is behavior. There's no science ...
COOPER: Do you claim that there's a scientific basis to beliefs of scientology?
WISEMAN: There's a religious basis to it. These things are not comparable at all.
COOPER: But you have like e-meters. You have these instruments which you believe measure things within the body. So you think there's a component of science to your beliefs?
WISEMAN: I'm not here to talk about scientology. I'm here to talk about psychiatry. Scientology is a religion. It expands man's spiritual nature. It improves his relationship with his family, with his -- with the universe, and with the Creator. Psychiatry is a pretense at science.
COOPER: So you don't believe it's helped anybody?
WISEMAN: How can it help someone? You talked about the antidepressant drugs, Anderson. Studies at Harvard, studies at Yale, studies at Columbia and studies at the State University of New York, tie the drugs to acts of suicide and or violence. Yet the psychiatrists slaps a label on a child who looks out the window or butts into line and puts them on these mind altering drugs.
COOPER: Just factually speaking, the actual number of suicides or side effects is actually quite small compared to the number of people say they derive very real life saving benefits from these drugs.
WISEMAN: Factually speaking, studies show that people on these antidepressant drugs commit suicide almost twice as much as those who don't.
COOPER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. With that -- what you're saying -- there's no clear necessarily correlation between the drugs themselves, you can make the argument, people who are -- have real problems and maybe would have committed suicide anyway and perhaps the drugs didn't help them. You're saying categorically no drugs work?
WISEMAN: No. And it's important to understand the difference when you say the word drugs. We are talking about mind altering drugs. We're not talking about medicines that actually help, insulin or antibiotics. Let me back up to something you said earlier. That these studies actually do show a causal relationship. If you lead the literature and psychiatrists should read their own literature. It makes it very, very clear that there is a causal relationship. The studies show people not suicidal or violent then take the drugs and become so.
So -- I think it is a travesty. I think it is criminal. That psychiatrists pretend, pretend that they're a scientific discipline and in fact, push the drugs off on unsuspecting children.
COOPER: Let me ask you, though. Because what you have been talking is drugs and what Tom Cruise keeps talking about is drugs and electroshock therapy and he makes it sound like anyone going to a psychiatrist gets pumped full of drugs and suddenly gets electroshock therapy against their will.
That's misleading. The number of people that actually get electroshock therapy, electroconvulsive therapy is tiny compared to the number of people who enter into talk therapy. Are you opposed to talk therapy, as well, from psychiatrists?
WISEMAN: A hundred thousand people a year get electroshocked, Anderson.
COOPER: And 10 million get antidepressant medication. So, relatively speaking, it's a tiny number given the number of people who actually are in therapeutic situations. So are you opposed to talk therapy?
WISEMAN: I'm opposed to any psychiatric practice that pretends to be a science and it's not. Let me go back to the instance of shock treatment. A five-year-old knows not to put a finger in the light socket. Yet a psychiatrist will run hundred of volts of electricity through someone's brain and pretend that it is therapy. This is barbaric. It's absolutely barbaric that this practice continues.
COOPER: But what's interesting to me is that you're opposed to -- I mean, talk -- not every psychiatrist pumps you full of medication. The idea is and standards of care are that you're supposed to enter into a discussion, a dialogue, you're supposed to enter into talk therapy and medication is usually considered a last resort in the ideal. What is the difference between the classes which scientology offers which seems to me a very expensive form of therapy and going into a therapist's office and talking about your early life, your early emotional issues, the same things which scientology seems to address?
WISEMAN: Scientology addresses the spirit. Psychiatry damages the brain. These drugs are brain damaging. Shock treatment is brain damaging.
COOPER: That's a slogan. Sir, with all due respect, that's a slogan. Let's get away from bumper sticker slogans and let's actually talk what's wrong with talk therapy?
WISEMAN: It is the truth. And whether it's talk therapy or drug treatment or shock treatment, all of these things are designed to treat disorders which the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is psychiatry's billing bible, clearly admit have no biologic basis. They say they can't even define what a mental disorder is and they say they can't tell the difference between one mental disorder and another mental disorder.
COOPER: So is any form of counseling other than with a scientologist or scientology-approved group inappropriate.
WISEMAN: Communication is a universal solvent. Pretending ...
COOPER: So ...
WISEMAN: ... that someone has got some kind of chemical imbalance, that's the falsehood. There is no chemical imbalance.
COOPER: If communication is a universal solvent, then it's OK to go to a psychiatrist and communicate and talk and talk about, you know, experiences, cognitive therapy. That's OK?
WISEMAN: But the psychiatrists pretends that there's a chemical imbalance and they're going to treat this with drugs or shock ...
COOPER: No, no. But that's not true, sir. Not all psychiatrists pump you full of medication. That's just simply not true. Plenty of people who are with psychiatrists who don't receive medication who are in talk therapy and I'm just want to make sure we're accurate. You're saying that is still wrong because the person is a fraud basically?
WISEMAN: I'm saying that they're pretending to be a science when they're not. That they're a pseudoscience. That whatever treatment they're using is based on a falsehood. It's based on a lie. It is based on a pretense that there's some underlying chemical basis that there's a medical problem when, in fact, there is not.
And I think the public is being misinformed. Teachers have been misinformed about the subjective nature of psychiatric diagnosis and the violence inducing nature of the drugs used to treat them. I think it's criminal, frankly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, is psychiatry pseudoscience? What do you think? Tom Cruise says yes and so does the Church of Scientology. We've had their say. Now we are going to hear from the other side when we return.
And second hour, another scientology story, this one is buried deep underground. It's about a vault and mysterious symbols. Do you see them there? They are only visible from the air. We'll tell you what they mean, ahead.
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COOPER: Welcome back. We are talking about psychiatric drugs and why the Church of Scientology opposes them. Now, before the break, we heard from Tom Cruise and another scientologist who blasted the psychiatric profession. We want to hear from the other side as we always do. We spoke with Dr. Nada Stotlund, the vice president for the American Psychiatric Association on an earlier edition of 360.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Doctor, thanks for being with us. You just heard Bruce Wiseman say you're a fraud, it's a pseudoscience. Your response?
NADA STOTLAND, AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION: Well, I'm glad to be here to talk about real medial science. I hate to think of people out there suffering from real diseases being told that there is nothing wrong with them. Our mental disorders are listed along with all the other medical disorders in the international classification of diseases...
COOPER: Right, but he's saying basically you guys, you doctors get together and come up with, you know, classifications and just put them in a book.
STOTLAND: Yes. So do the cardiologists and the cancer doctors and everybody else. That's how we define what's troubling people, what's causing their symptoms.
COOPER: They also are saying that there's no scientific proof of a chemical imbalance, that you basically just label -- put that label on someone, say: Oh, you're chemically imbalanced, and you give them medication -- true?
STOTLAND: We have brain pictures of people who have depression and people who don't. You can see the difference in their brain images. You can see when they are treated successfully, either with medication or with psychotherapy or both, their brain return to normal.
COOPER: How many people who come to see a psychiatrist end up getting medicated or getting shock treatment?
STOTLAND: Shock treatment... COOPER: Is it -- does everyone do it or is talk therapy -- do some people just get talk therapy?
STOTLAND: Absolutely. And for mild to moderate cases, for example, of depression, talk therapy works just as well as medication. If you have a more serious case, you probably need to have both.
COOPER: So, he says 100,000 people getting shock treatment, ECT, every year -- and the National Mental Health Association backs up those numbers -- it sounds like a lot of people -- 100,000.
STOTLAND: Well, it's not a lot of people compared to how many people have depression. And you know, it's easy to describe that as an inhumane treatment. Let's talk about surgery, let's talk about playing with knives. Surgery is -- also could be described as a brutal treatment. It's something that we do to cure people. And electroshock therapy, which is done now with anesthesia and with permission from the patient, can help people who would otherwise die of depression.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It's a fascinating debate. One we'll continue to focus on because it affects so many Americans and people around the world.
In DNA limbo, why are the unidentified dead of New Orleans still waiting for testing that would at least give them their names and families back? Imagine, they have not done any DNA testing to identify more than 200 Katrina victims. We'll investigate trying to keep them honest.
Plus, can global warming be making things colder? The frightening story about Atlantic Ocean currents and the big chill they may cause us all.
That's coming up on 360. First, behold the power of cheese and a company that's on the rise. Mmm, cheese.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The name of the farm is Jasper Hill Farm. And we're located in Greensborough, Vermont. There's a renaissance happening in the food world, and cheesemaking has huge potential in terms of space in the market. We're making three different cheeses right now. They're all raw milk cheeses. We're making a hard cheddar style cheese that we all Aspenhurst (ph). A natural rinded blue cheese called Baileyhazen Blue (ph)
This is Constant Bliss. And it is a mold ripened cheese of our own creation and super tasty.
All of our milk comes from beautiful Ayrshire cows. Our motto on our label is "Old world style, new world twist." So they are recipe that are derived from the European cheeses but have been adapted to suit our production schedule and our uniqueness. If in, you know, 50 years there are 50 farms that are making Baileyhasen (ph) blue or Constant Bliss (ph) or Aspenhurst or all three than we will have succeed on leaving what we consider a very positive footprint on the landscape here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Chilly night here in New York. We'll see if it gets chillier in the years ahead do. Because here's a strange question. Do the special effects guys out on the West Coast know something the rest of us don't? We asked because a recent study in the highly respected journal "Nature" seems to suggest a scenario whole a lot of us bought tickets to in movie theaters not very long ago is not completely out of the realm of possibility. Talk about a mini ice age. CNN meteorologist Rob Marciano looked into it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST (voice-over): The surge of extreme weather the past couple of years has precipitated a blizzard of stormy movies in Hollywood. Like "The Day After Tomorrow" in which global warming abruptly makes New York freeze over, now a study says something like that could happen in Europe. Do scientists really think so?
HARRY BRYDEN, OCEANOGRAPHER: If we look at models, they would suggest the temperatures get colder by four to six degrees centigrade.
MARCIANO: That's about 10 degrees Fahrenheit. British researcher Harry Bryden's new study shows Atlantic Ocean currents that circulate like a giant conveyor belt are changing, slowing, in fact.
(on camera): Here's how it works. Ocean currents move water around the globe. The Gulf Stream, for instance, near the U.S., takes warm salty water into the North Atlantic. As that salty water cools, it gets dense. And sinks. And moves back to the tropics in a cold, deep current. This is important because it keeps the ocean from getting either too warm or too cold in any one spot.
RICHARD ALLEY, GEOSCIENTIST: If the conveyor were to turn off fairly soon, next decades, let's say, then you would have the ability to grow sea ice on the North Atlantic and tend to make Europe's winters get much colder.
MARCIANO (voice-over): So, could global warming make Europe cooler?
BRYDEN: We are not relating it to global warming. We are observing the change. I think we are not sure what the cause is.
MARCIANO: Whatever the cause, scientists say the arctic icecap is thawing.
ALLEY: Melting of Greenland puts fresh water into the ocean, melting of small mountain glaciers, melting of permafrost all will tend to take water from the land and put it into the ocean. MARCIANO: The bottom line is that run off of fresh water is slowing down the delivery of warm water to Europe and if the circulation comes to a halt, like in the movie, Europe could be in for a big chill. What does Bryden think about the movie?
BRYDEN: Dramatic, rapid climate change that occurred over 10 days is not realistic at all. So, whether that timescale of climate change could occur over 20 years I think is not outrageous.
MARCIANO: And if it does happen, remember the classic song? We'll get ready for a whole new tune. April in Paris would never be the same again. Rom Marciano, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Ah, April in Paris.
Coming up, some stories never lose their power to shock. Tonight, three months after Katrina, why are families in the Gulf still waiting for loved ones to be identified? Why has none of the DNA testing begun? We broke the story last night. Tonight we're trying to get answers. They have got the mandate, they have got the money and still they are not doing the testing. Trying to keep 'em honest tonight.
Also, keeping the commander in chief honest. How well does his assessment of progress in Iraq square with the facts on the ground? We'll hear from a reporter who says, in so many words, what Iraqi army?
Then, the first abortion case for the new chief justice and new insight into what the next nominee, Samuel Alito, thinks about the issue. From America and around the world, you're watching 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Good evening again, this is 360. What you are about to see is going to make you angry if it doesn't break your heart first.
ANNOUNCER: How could they? Two hundred sixty Katrina victims forgotten, still unidentified, lying in a morgue. The state promised they'd do DNA testing, but it's been more than three months and testing hasn't even started. Tonight, we'll tell you who's to blame for the terrible treatment Katrina victims and their families are getting.
Mysterious symbols in New Mexico. What are these markings and why are they only visible from the air? Tonight, the secret revealed. Why scientologists created these symbols and what they have to do with an underground bunker built by the church.
And, caught on tape. Construction site thieves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry, it's wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Robbing future dream homes now part of a $4 billion a year epidemic. And you could be picking up the bill. This is ANDERSON COOPER 360, live from the CNN studios in New York, here is Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: A lot to cover tonight. First let's give you the headlines at this moment.
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