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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for November 30, 2005, CNNHN

Aired November 30, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Please help us. A Wisconsin woman, 21- year-old Christine Rudy, 6 months pregnant, has disappeared. If she`s out there, Wisconsin temperatures now below 18 degrees, predicted down to 6 degrees tomorrow.
And tonight, breaking news in the case of 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach. Remember her? The suspect in her disappearance says Halbach is still alive and that he is being framed. And also tonight, police reveal grim details in a search warrant in the case of Leslie Adams.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The facts in the Leslie Adams case have been carefully guarded by police until now. Details revealed in a police search warrant in the Leslie Adams case state both a bullet casing and blood discovered in Leslie`s home. And also tonight, could 25-year-old photographer Lisa Halbach still be alive? The man accused in her disappearance says the 25-year-old is still out there.

But first tonight: Please help us. Twenty-one-year-old Christine Rudy missing now for more than two weeks. She`s six months pregnant. She was reportedly last seen on a Wisconsin roadside. Christine`s mother wants to know more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROL LEE, CHRISTINE RUDY`S MOTHER: My first thought was, Why did he leave her out in the woods?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The "he" the mother is referring to is her husband.

Very quickly, to Paul Knoff, reporter with WCCN radio. Paul, bring us to date, friend.

PAUL KNOFF, WCCN RADIO: Well, basically, what we know is Christine Rudy went missing, apparently, on the 12th of November. Her husband, Shaun Rudy, who is 23 years old, reported his wife missing a couple days later. What`s also interesting, as you mentioned, is Christine is six months pregnant. Just the fact that her husband would leave his wife allegedly by the side of the road in rural Clark County in the midst of November is interesting, as is the case that Mr. Rudy was arrested just a few days after telling authorities that he left his wife by the side of the road.

GRACE: Well, Paul Knoff, is there any reason not to believe him? The two apparently had an argument. He says she insisted on getting out of the car and he let her out.

KNOFF: Well, basically, at this point, the sheriff`s department says there is no reason to believe, at this point, that anything other than a missing persons case is what we`re dealing with. Obviously, people in the area are letting their imaginations run wild, so to speak, and really, there are very few options as to what could have happened to this 21-year- old girl. Possibly, could she have run away after being left by the side of the road, contacted friends, got out of the area? Did she wander into the nearby Clark County forest land, disappear, maybe succumb to the weather conditions? Possibly, was she hit by a stray bullet during one of our hunting seasons?

But I think what most people are focusing on is the real possibility that something more sinister happened, possibly foul play. Was she murdered, possibly by her husband or somebody else? Or could this be a case, unfortunately, where suicide took place? Obviously, six months into a pregnancy is a very stressful time for a couple.

GRACE: Say what? Have you ever in your life, Paul heard of a 6- month-pregnant woman -- you`ve already got all the stuff for the baby -- committing suicide?

KNOFF: You know, I`m not an expert in these situations, but...

GRACE: No, I`m asking you! Have you ever...

KNOFF: ... I`ve not heard of something like that.

GRACE: Me, either. I do not think...

KNOFF: Never -- no, I`ve never...

GRACE: ... suicide...

KNOFF: ... heard of anything like that.

GRACE: And take a look the this, Paul. I don`t know if you can see what I`m seeing, but if this is...

KNOFF: I`m not seeing it.

GRACE: Elizabeth (ph), is this -- is this where she was put off, Elizabeth? Ellie (ph)? Yes, no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: Well, what is she going to do, climb up one of those pine trees or rappel (ph) over the mountain? I mean, how could she just disappear into the forest, Paul?

KNOFF: Well, obviously, it does appear to be a case where foul play is involved. The sheriff`s department has been candid. They say that foul play is a possibility here, but at this time, they don`t have the information. When you talk about what could have happened to her, I think they have to kick around all these different ideas. But obviously, I think the common belief amongst just laymen in this area is probably something more sinister happened to Christine Rudy.

GRACE: Here is what her mother has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: I know Christine was all excited about the baby coming and the baby shower that we were going to have on her. Her husband come over and said he couldn`t find Christine and then he was going to go and report her missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is the first time her face and these details have been published nationally. Please help us find Christine Rudy. She is just 21 years old. Christine is 6 months pregnant. She has been missing since November 12.

I want to go out to the Clark County sheriff`s office. Chief Deputy Jim Backus is with us. Chief, thank you for being with us.

CHIEF DEPUTY JIM BACKUS, CLARK COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Thank you for allowing me to be here.

GRACE: Sir, what can you tell us about this girl?

BACKUS: Well, her husband, Mr. Rudy, reported her as a missing person to the Thorpe (ph) Police Department, which is a city of about 2,500 people in the northwestern part of our county.

GRACE: Did you say 2,500 people -- 2,500?

BACKUS: Yes. Correct.

GRACE: That`s a very -- I came from a small area. That`s a very small area, Chief, which says to me there`s not a lot of transients going through, committing random crime.

BACKUS: That would be correct.

GRACE: Continue.

BACKUS: OK. That occurred on Monday, November 14, in the evening hours. On the weekend of the 19th, the Thorpe Police Department requested our assistance to provide more resources to them in an attempt to locate her.

GRACE: You know what`s disturbing me, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, a study conducted by Dr. Isabel Horan (ph), which has been replicated in many other environmental conditions, says that the number one cause of death amongst pregnant women is homicide. Second, cardiovascular. What do you think, Pat?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: It`s pretty horrifying, Nancy, isn`t it. But when you look what happens when a woman gets pregnant, this is a time in life where everything changes. And if you choose to have that pregnancy, then it`s a happy change. But if the pregnancy comes along and people aren`t prepared for it, in this case, perhaps if the man was not prepared for it, he may decide that, Oh, I`m going to be burdened forever. I can`t deal with this. It`s either now or never. If I don`t do something about it now, I`m never going to be able to get out of this situation.

You saw that with Scott Peterson. He wanted a single life. He said, Hey, now or never, so he got rid of Laci and went on with what he thought he was going to go on with his life as he wanted it, but didn`t get away with it.

GRACE: I remember the first time I heard that statistic, I was sitting alone in the studio as a guest for Larry King and somebody blurted it out. And I couldn`t believe it. After all the domestic homicides I had handled, I could not believe, I couldn`t take in that the number one cause of death amongst pregnant women is homicide. I went home that night, researched it and found the doctor that conducted the study, immediately had her on my radio show, questioned her, and it, unfortunately, is true.

Criminal profiler Pat Brown just mentioned Scott Peterson. But think back, everybody -- pregnant women. You`ve got Laci Peterson. Go ahead. You got Lori Hacking. Mark Hacking now behind bars for murder. She was about a month pregnant. Latoyia Figueroa -- the father of her child under arrest. Lisa Underwood, one of the first ladies we profiled, missing. And of course, Amanda Jones, still missing, last seen in the company of her boyfriend, she also pregnant.

So when I go to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, remember, Doctor, this woman, Christine Rudy`s, husband has not been named as a suspect by police, even though he was the last one to see her. He said they had a spat and she wanted out of the car. He put her out. Ellie, was it snowing that night, may I ask?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) -- four miles to the nearest neighbor.

GRACE: So I guess she just trotted on down the four miles, 6 months pregnant, and was never seen or heard from again. Explain to me this phenomena of why pregnant women are dropping like flies!

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, not only is it the leading cause of death among women, but we know that one third of women who are murdered are killed by their intimate partners. I think Pat Brown said it, that the man is either perceiving the pregnancy as an obstacle, it`s going to destroy his life, or he`s not number one anymore, and he absolutely needs to be prime, so he`s going to destroy his marriage. Or in some instances, he`ll do it for money, insurance.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Doctor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: I would just love to see her walk through that door. I don`t care how she looks or -- I don`t care, I just want her to walk through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The parents of Christine Rudy still holding out hope. They have tons of baby toys, baby supplies for the newborn when he or she arrives. Christine Rudy 6 months pregnant. She was last seen November 12 on the side of a Wisconsin road.

Although her husband has not been named a suspect in this case, let`s just take a little peek at his rap sheet, OK? Shaun W. Rudy -- here you go -- 11/05, possession of firearm charge. Oh, that`s sweet! In 2002, manufacturing and delivering methamphetamine. He`s up all night! In 5/02, burglary, that case dismissed. Elizabeth, do I have any more? Oh, thank you. Page two. In 11/01, underage drinking and possession of something. In 9/01, operating vehicle with suspended license. Now, Elizabeth -- oh -- ruh-roh (ph)! On 6/2000, operating, suspended license, 2/2000, obstructing an officer. That one -- is there another page? OK. That`s it. I`ve got a whopper out here. I don`t know if we got all that.

But again, to Alan Ripka, he`s the last one seen with her, left her out four miles away from the closest structure. It`s -- what was it, 12 degrees, it`s going to be 6 degrees tomorrow. Alan, police say he`s not a suspect.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: (INAUDIBLE) of interest. If he admits to being the last person to being with her, he certainly has to be a person of interest. Now, by the way, his story that he left her off there is not corroborated by anything other than himself, and it certainly can just be a convenient way to try to cover up what he had done earlier that day.

But I will say this, as a criminal defense attorney, Nancy. In this case, there`s not a shred of evidence he did anything wrong, and all the discussion we had, Nancy, regarding it be a leading cause of pregnant women murdered would not apply if this was not the case with her husband.

GRACE: Why wouldn`t it apply?

RIPKA: Because if it was -- if he left her on the side of the road because of a legitimate argument, which is obviously ridiculous -- but if he did...

GRACE: Why would he put her out? She`s 6 months pregnant. Why wouldn`t he get out?

RIPKA: Well, if she said, I want out of this car, I`ve have enough of you, you`re making me stressed out, let me get out...

GRACE: In sub-zero temperature? That wouldn`t be more stressful?

RIPKA: Well, it may be ridiculous, but that does not there`s any evidence that he murdered her. And if this is a random act of violence, if someone driving by picked her up or something else like that occurred, then it has nothing to do with pregnant women killed by their husbands.

GRACE: I want to quickly go back to Paul Knoff, reporter with WCCN radio. Have Christine`s parents given a statement?

KNOFF: Yes, they have talked to media. Basically, they kind of echo the comments you just had on. They want their daughter back, and of course, being the parents of a girl that`s been missing now for nearly three weeks, they`re holding out hope that she`s still alive. And you can certainly understand why, as parents, they would do that.

GRACE: Everyone, take a look at Christine Rudy. She has been missing since November 12, put out on a Wisconsin -- that`s not here, Elizabeth. Let`s get a shot of Christine Rudy. That`s her husband. There you go. She`s just 21, 6 months pregnant. Tip line 1-800-743-2420.

We`ll all be right back, but very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." A man in blue down. New York police officer Dillon Stewart, who ignored a gunshot wound near his heart so he could continue the chase of a gunman, died in the hospital Monday. He is the first New York City police officer to be killed in the line of duty this year. Officer Dillon Stewart`s accused killer also charged with attempted murder of another officer in a separate incident, the alleged cop killer behind bars. Stewart leaves behind a wife and two young children, a 4-month-old daughter. Tonight, we remember and we honor New York City police officer Dillon Stewart.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shaun later told police he left Christine on the side of double M (ph) in Clark County after an argument. That was more than two weeks ago. Carol and Ed won`t say whether they believe Shaun`s story, but they say his family has been supportive. The Lees haven`t heard anything from police for days. They say they`re frustrated and want answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. A 21-year-old woman is missing in Wisconsin. Tomorrow, the temperature`s expected to drop down to 6 degrees. She is 6 months pregnant. Please help us find Christine Rudy.

I want to go straight back out to Chief Deputy Jim Backus. He`s the Clark County sheriff -- deputy sheriff. Sir, how many days passed before this became -- is it still a missing persons case, or has it moved beyond that?

BACKUS: At this time, we are still treating it as a missing person case and leaving all avenues open. And as it was stated earlier, we are not ruling out foul play at all.

GRACE: Now, when does it go beyond a missing persons case, Chief? I mean, she`s been gone since November 12. Did she have any history of disappearing before?

BACKUS: A couple days prior to the 12th, Mr. Rudy indicated that there was another such incident, where he had left her on a hilltop in Crawford County, which is near Prairie Duchien (ph), Wisconsin. At that time, Ms. Rudy had walked approximately 7 to 8 miles to a church, where she had phoned him, and he had returned to pick her up.

GRACE: He left her on a hilltop? A hilltop? Did...

BACKUS: Yes, a...

GRACE: Am I going deaf, or did you say he left a 6-month-pregnant wife on hilltop?

BACKUS: Yes, he did.

GRACE: OK. Sir, has this guy taken a polygraph?

BACKUS: No, he has not.

GRACE: Has he been asked to?

BACKUS: We are speaking with him, and due to charges and that, he has requested to speak to an attorney, and so we have not heard from him since.

GRACE: Yes, well, you know what? You`re right about that. Jonna Spilbor, once a suspect in any case -- - and this guy, again, is not an official suspect -- asked to a speak to attorney, all bets off. No more questioning, no suggestion of polygraph, no go back and rewalk the scene. It`s over. Why?

JONNA SPILBOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because we advise him to do that. And you know, if he`s not a suspect now -- here`s my theory on polygraphs - - he will be as soon as he takes one. But here`s what we usually do, Nancy. As a criminal defense attorney, if I were representing him, he is going to take a polygraph in my office, with my polygrapher, and nobody`s going to know the results unless they`re beneficial to him. It`s a common tactic. It`s often done, and I wouldn`t be surprised if it`s done in this case, too.

GRACE: Alan Ripka, if you`re representing this guy, how do you verify anything he`s saying?

RIPKA: Well, at the end of the day, Nancy, I don`t have to verify anything he`s saying. I just have to sit back and see...

GRACE: That`s not a very good attitude, Ripka!

RIPKA: Well, you know, Nancy, it`s a good defense, though.

GRACE: It`s like a nanny nanny boo-boo (ph). I don`t have to.

RIPKA: Well, I don`t have to, under the laws of our country, Nancy. And at the end of the day, until they show me something, show me something that proves that my client did something wrong, then I don`t have to move an inch.

GRACE: Your client is not even a suspect yet! I`m asking you to help find this girl, so how can we verify this husband`s story?

RIPKA: Well, if I represent him, Nancy, and I`m not quite sure that his story is that accurate, I`m not helping the police do anything. And you know something? I`d rather sit back and do nothing. Now, certainly, I want to help find her. If he`s innocent and his story is true, then I would advise him to do everything he can to try and help them. And I`m sure he will.

GRACE: Chief Backus, what is being done to find Christine Rudy tonight?

BACKUS: We`ve performed numerous searches, along with audience (ph) County sheriff`s department, along double M and the Clark County forest area and also the Auclair County forest area. We`ve also performed searches with dogs and actually completed one of those a short time ago.

GRACE: Chief Deputy Jim Backus with us tonight. Sir, good luck.

BACKUS: Thank you very much.

GRACE: Everyone, please help us with Christine. She has gotten very little national coverage. She is 6 months pregnant, missing since November 12. Tip line, 1-800-743-2420.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." New developments in the mystery surrounding the murder of Virginia Commonwealth University student Taylor Behl. Police tonight ask for your help identifying this pond, the pond shown in these photos. Not that photo, the pond photo. The attorney general`s office refuses to reveal the significance of the pictures or where they came from, but they seem to be desperate to know about this pond`s location. If you can help, call Matthews (ph) County Crime Solvers, 804-725-7001.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN KRATZ, CALUMET COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Because the DNA evidence is found on the key and Mr. Avery`s blood is found inside of Teresa Halbach`s vehicle, it is no longer a question, at least in my mind as the special prosecutor in this case, who is responsible for, in this case, the death of Teresa Halbach.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, the suspect in the disappearance of 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach, Steven Avery, says Halbach is still alive.

I`m going to go straight out to the reporter with the Wisconsin Public Radio, Gil Halstead. Gil, what`s going on out there?

GIL HALSTEAD, WPR: Well, he did -- Steven Avery did an interview with the Associated Press in which he did say that he thought he was being framed and he believed that Teresa Halbach was still alive. And he actually called on her to come home, if she could hear him.

He said a number of things to the reporter, including that he really believed that he`s being framed and that some of the evidence found against him he had explanations for. He said he cut his finger. That`s why blood was found around his trailer and his garage. He says that spent rifle shells that were found in his garage were there because his nephews had been shooting in the area.

He changed his story that he had told investigators before about a fire that -- where the bone fragments of Teresa Halbach were found. He said he didn`t start a fire. Now he says that he actually was burning tires and brush there on Halloween, which is the day that Teresa Halbach disappeared.

GRACE: Keep it coming, Avery! Just keep on talking!

Alan Ripka, don`t you just hate it when your guy opens up heart and soul to the AP, the Associated Press?

RIPKA: Oh, Nancy, there`s nothing worse than that. He creates inconsistent statements. He gives the authorities...

GRACE: You mean -- you mean lies?

RIPKA: Well, you know...

GRACE: I love the way you put that perfume on the pig! Inconsistent statements!

RIPKA: Well, you know, they still have to show that they`re inconsistent statements, Nancy, and that has not been done yet.

GRACE: Well, they can`t both be true. Either he was burning things there at his auto salvage lot on that day that she was there or he wasn`t. And PS, you know that the burnt fragments of teeth and bones were found there.

RIPKA: I do, Nancy. However, you know, something about when he burned an old tire -- you know, he could be mistaken. He could be...

GRACE: An old tire!

RIPKA: Of course. I mean, at the end, come on!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MIKE GALANOS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos at the CNN Center. We want to bring you up to speed on some of the big stories going on right now in the news.

The California Supreme Court will not stop a scheduled execution of convicted killer of Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Williams is the Crips gang founder who became an anti-gang activist while in prison, and he won a Nobel Prize. He`s scheduled to die by lethal injection on December 13th.

A rape case in Canada has ended with a stunning court verdict. The court found a man not guilty of rape because he was sleep-walking at the time of the attack. The court said the man suffers from a condition known as sexsomnia.

And it is that time of year. You`re out buying toys for the kids. But some of them can be dangerous, even deadly. So you want to check your list and look out for the toys you should not buy this year. We`re going to run down the whole list for you. That`s coming up in about 30 minutes on "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT," right after NANCY GRACE. We`ll see you then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Witnesses place Mr. Avery with the victim, Teresa Halbach, witnesses that we`ve determined have indicated that Mr. Avery was the last person to see Teresa Halbach. At least that we know, the last person to see Teresa alive was that of Steven Avery.

STEVEN AVERY, PERSON OF INTEREST IN MISSING PERSON CASE: I`m innocent. I don`t want to nothing to harm nobody. I can`t figure that out. And you hate me that much to frame me for like that? That ain`t me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Many of you may remember the disappearance of 25-year-old photographer Teresa Halbach, just as beautiful on the outside as on the inside. Joining us right now from Green Bay, Wisconsin, Mike Halbach. This is Teresa`s brother.

Mike, welcome. Thank you for being with us.

MIKE HALBACH, TERESA HALBACH`S SISTER: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Sir, what do you make of Avery`s comments, the stunning revelations that your sister is still alive, and he begged her to come home so he can get out of jail?

HALBACH: You know, he can say whatever he wants. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it`s God who knows who`s lying and who`s telling the truth. And he`ll have his day before God. And I would just tell him good luck.

GRACE: What do you make of all the evidence that was found at Avery`s auto salvage job?

HALBACH: The evidence definitely seems to be leading towards one person, Mr. Avery. And the remains, from what I understand, we`re almost positive it`s my sister. And his statement about her still being out there, I`m not sure where he`s getting that from, but we`re -- as unfortunate as it is, we`re pretty sure it`s Teresa.

GRACE: Mr. Halbach, when you hear his statements, how does that make you feel?

HALBACH: I mean, obviously, it hurts to know that the person who may have done this to my sister is, you know, probably lying about it. And, you know, it seems as though he`s enjoying every second of it, in my eyes.

GRACE: You know, that`s a really good point I hadn`t thought of quite yet, Mike, because this guy is giving one interview after the next to local TV, the A.P., Associated Press, you name it. What`s that all about?

HALBACH: I don`t know. For all I know, I mean, he can talk all he wants. And I don`t believe it`s going to help him one bit, so...

GRACE: I was just wondering if you are feeling angry, if you are feeling hurt, or sick at heart, or just numb when you hear the things he`s saying, if it just bounces off.

HALBACH: I`ve pretty much felt everything you just mentioned, that -- I guess, you know, he`ll have his day in court here on Earth, and, you know, that will decide what happens to him here on Earth. But after that, I don`t think he`ll be anywhere near my sister in heaven.

GRACE: Mr. Halbach, you have mentioned many times here on Earth, here on Earth. Are you a religious person?

HALBACH: Yes. I mean, I was brought up that way by my family. And it`s what`s really been helping us through this whole time. And you know, watching your show, we can relate to the people you`re talking to.

And I just -- you know, I want them to know that God is with them and with the people who are missing. And whether they`re here on Earth or in heaven, he`s keeping them safe, holding them in his arms, so...

GRACE: With us by phone is Teresa`s brother.

Very quickly to Gil Halstead. For our viewers that are not familiar with this story, explain what happened.

GIL HALSTEAD, REPORTER, WPR PUBLIC RADIO: Well, what happened is that Teresa Halbach went to Steven Avery`s salvage yard, to his trailer, and took a picture of a van there for her job, which was working for "Auto Trader" magazine. And she took a picture of it. Steven Avery admits that he met with her and that she was there for about five minutes. He says she left then, but she was not seen again. Steven Avery`s the last person to have seen her that day.

GRACE: But what`s the kicker to me, Gil, is that her car, her little car, was found...

HALSTEAD: Right, the car was found.

GRACE: ... out behind there with things covering it up, like pieces from other cars and trees limbs, right, Ellie? All that.

Why would that be? And then there`s the issue of the DNA, Gil. Explain.

HALSTEAD: Well, the DNA -- the sheriff, Jerry Pagel, the investigator from Calumet County who is leading the investigation, he says that the DNA tested done at the state lab were conclusive enough for him to prove that these were her remains and that Steven Avery`s DNA was found on her car keys and his blood in her car. So that kind of evidence seems to point that direction.

GRACE: Gil, when you say "remains," what was it exactly?

HALSTEAD: What was found were bone fragments and teeth in a burned pit on the salvage yard grounds. They found all of the bones of a female. They`re doing extra DNA tests now, as you know, at the FBI, mitochondrial tests to try to completely confirm that these are her remains, but the investigators involved have already said that they are, so...

GRACE: Very quickly to Mike Halbach. This is Teresa`s brother. I know this just must be hell for you. Were her older or younger brother?

HALBACH: I was 2 1/2 years younger.

GRACE: So this is your big sister?

HALBACH: Right.

GRACE: It`s hard for me to look at this picture of Teresa Halbach and reconcile that with charred bones and teeth. I almost want to believe that`s not her. But then if it`s not her, then where is she, Mike?

HALBACH: I mean, the family -- no, we believe the investigators and everything they`re doing, and they`re telling us it`s her. We`re just waiting on the tests.

But, you know, I can`t in my mind understand what might have happened to her. You know, I don`t think anyone in their right mind set would do something like that to another human being. It`s just unbelievable, really.

GRACE: Well, I know one thing. I don`t know that I buy his story. He cut his finger and that is why his blood is on the inside of her car. Whatever happened, if your sister has passed on, she went down fighting, Mike Halbach. I just -- you can tell from the scene.

I want to go to Dr. Warner Spitz, medical examiner. Dr. Spitz, why the additional tests? Why is it that they may not yet be able to determine the identity of these remains?

WARNER SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, they want to be certain. So they do mitochondrial DNA. Obviously, they did a DNA that is not totally exclusive.

But they have, I understand, her blood and his blood in the vehicle. They have her blood on a key, or his blood on a key, from the ignition. And that same key is found in his trailer. So, I mean, when you put it all together, there`s very little question.

Furthermore, it is rare, even though the body may be charred, that the female organs, like the uterus and ovaries, would also be so entirely burnt that they would not yield some DNA. The uterus is fibrous tissue and almost burns last.

GRACE: You know, Doctor, I recall, from studying the scientific evidence in the Laci Peterson case -- and I had done a lot of homicides before that, but I didn`t realize that the uterus is such a strong organ in the female body. It`s one of the last organs to decompose.

SPITZ: That`s correct. The fibrous tissue decomposes very late. The fibrous tissue also burns very late during the burning process.

GRACE: To Kathy Reichs, forensic anthropologist, I know that the reports are this is a woman`s bones. Explain to us how police can almost immediately, or a medical examiner or anthropologist like yourself, can immediately determine man or woman bones?

DR. KATHY REICHS, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, there are differences primarily in the skull and in the pelvis, but it may not be immediate, Nancy. It depends on what you`ve got to work with.

If this was extremely fragmentary -- and my understanding is that it was very fragmentary -- even though there were bits of bones from throughout the skeleton, it could take a bit longer, because you`re not going to have those good, big, anatomical landmarks to look at.

One of the things I was really pleased to read in this case is the forensic anthropologist that was working on it. And this is someone who`s got a lot of experience. Even more importantly, it`s not one of these catch-the-wave, recent people. This is a board-certified anthropologist who knows what she`s doing. So probably provided them with a profile, with the age, the sex, the race, those kinds of features.

GRACE: How do you tell the age, though? I thought at a certain point a human quits growing and actually begins to shrink?

REICHS: Well, that`s true. But throughout adulthood, there are also certain changes that take place in the bones. And even if you`ve just got fragments, you can do histological analysis.

GRACE: What is that?

REICHS: Cellular level. You can make thin sections and look at those under the microscope, because bone is constantly turning over. The bone cells are constantly replacing each other. And by looking at how many you`ve got basically, how many of those little units you`ve got, you can determine adult age fairly precisely.

So what the anthropologist would do would be provide that profile and be able to say, "This is consistent with the profile of the person that is missing, or it`s not consistent." And in this case, I suspect what the anthropologist did is said, "This is, in fact, consistent."

That`s not a positive DNA, but it`s a good first step. You`ll then get your positive normally from dental records or from DNA. And in this case, they`re going to DNA.

GRACE: And very quickly, Dr. Spitz, what can we assume about how Teresa was murdered, if that`s the case, based on what we know about the condition of her remains?

SPITZ: Well, the condition of the remains is not going to tell you very much at this point. But the fact that there is, I understand, pornographic material in his trailer...

GRACE: Yes.

SPITZ: ... the fact that there are handcuffs and leg irons in the trailer...

GRACE: Right, right.

SPITZ: ... which may be used for sexual perversities, as well, when you consider the picture in its entirety, there`s every reason to believe that she may have been strangled.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back regarding the case of amateur photographer Teresa Halbach.

But to tonight`s "Case Alert," with no sign of Zehra Attari in more than three weeks since the 56-year-old doctor went missing, police calling in divers to search the Oakland estuary. Civil rights group demanding the FBI get involved.

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AVERY: They planted the evidence. How else could it be there? I didn`t do nothing. It don`t make no sense.

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GRACE: No. It really doesn`t make sense, what you`re saying, when your blood is found on her ignition key, hidden in your bedroom, according to police. That`s what they have to say.

To Pat Brown, criminal profiler. What can the FBI tell us about these remains that the local crime lab cannot?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it`s not that they can tell us so much more, but it`s a second check, and that`s what the importance of it is, to find out as much as possible. But I think it`s really funny, with Avery. What he`s really trying to do -- as people who have pathological lying problems, whenever they`re confronted with an issue, they simply tell another lie.

Avery is really developing an interesting story. He`s saying that this woman appeared on his property and, right after he talked to her, some other serial killer jumped onto his property, killed the woman, hid all the evidence around. Oh, no, no, no, well, maybe the police hid all the evidence around.

He`s absolutely got nothing to work with, so he just keeps fabricating something after the other, and he`s probably enjoying a bit of it, because it`s kind of fun for him to get the attention.

GRACE: As we take you to our next story, I just want to tell Teresa`s brother, Mike Halbach, our prayers and our thoughts are with you, sir.

HALBACH: I really appreciate that, and thanks for all your help.

GRACE: Very quickly, I want to go to the Leslie Adams case. Leslie has been missing for weeks now. I want to go to Ken Sugiura with the "Atlanta Journal-Constitution."

Bring us up-to-date.

KEN SUGIURA, REPORTER, "ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": Well, the latest thing that`s happened is that the search warrant that the police used to investigate Leslie Adams` apartment in Lilburn, Georgia, came back. And it says that police went in there and they found an empty shell casing from a bullet. They found blood on the floor, and they found sheets and pillow cases in the washer and drier.

It also gives details about what happened -- what police believe happened in the last few days before she disappeared on October 21st.

GRACE: Everybody, the tip line for Leslie Marva Adams, age 40, is 770-513-5300. There is a $25,000 reward for anyone that can help us find what happened to Leslie Adams, a local beautician.

I want to go to Leslie`s sister, Roberta Adams. Roberta, thank you for being with us. You know, the police have been holding all this information tight, close to the vest. What is your reaction? I mean, this is a stunning development.

ROBERTA ADAMS, SISTER OF MISSING LESLIE ADAMS: Well, it was -- it`s unsetting because, you know, I feel like, you know, now things are becoming uncovered. And it`s like we were left in the dark about some things.

GRACE: When you say "left in the dark," what do you mean?

ADAMS: Well, for one thing, I didn`t know about the shell casing. So that was just like -- that was really hard to swallow.

GRACE: Take a listen to what Leslie`s boyfriend had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We was basically together most of the time. We argued a lot, but we never really got physical. But basically, we was happy a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What do you make of that, Roberta Adams? Is that the same boyfriend that she took out the TRO on?

ADAMS: That`s the same one.

GRACE: Now, back to Ken Sugiura, very quickly, Ken, what about this argument that the two allegedly had just before she went missing?

SUGIURA: Well, they said that -- Leslie Adams was on the phone with a friend, I believe, and that person overheard the two arguing and called police, and that police came to the apartment, and, as of that point, that she decided to get the restraining order against him.

GRACE: And to Roberta Adams, these shells, these shells that were found on the floor, and blood, did your sister have a weapon in the home?

ADAMS: No, ma`am, she did not.

GRACE: So this did not belong to her?

ADAMS: No.

GRACE: And to Kathy Reichs, Kathy, what can we deduce from shells?

REICHS: That a gun was fired in the room, probably. That would take a ballistics expert, but I`m sure they`re going to take a look at that to see if it was fired and then they`re going to try to eventually tie it back to the gun that fired it and, that gun, tie that to the person or the person`s apartment or tie the whole thing together.

GRACE: Exactly.

And to Dr. Patricia Saunders, I mean, you don`t get a gun shot or a gun shell without a bullet being fired. That`s the cast-off. So what is your take? You`ve got a TRO. This guy`s still not been named a suspect. And her sister`s just finding out about the blood and the gunshot shell.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, the reports when she -- when Leslie took out the TRO, is that she said that he had tried to choke her, that he was intensely jealous and constantly jealous, that he was threatening. He had threatened to kill her.

These are three of the biggest risk factors for domestic violence homicide. It`s escalates over time, and I`m afraid that it may have escalated into a homicide.

GRACE: Everybody, quick break.

But tonight, congratulation is due to one of our friends, defense attorney Lisa Wayne, a guest here many, many times. Lisa, the recipient of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers` 2005 Heeney Award for exemplifying core values of the legal profession. Lisa, congratulations. We are so proud of you. Walk slow and hurry back, friend.

Very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Jesse Mendez, wanted in connection with the `93 murder of 41-year-old Michael Mekowski (ph).

Mendez, 31, 5`8", 140 pounds, brown hair, hazel eyes. If you have info on Mendez, call the FBI, 310-477-6565.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Carlie Brucia sentencing trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV.

Please stay with us as we remember tonight Specialist Javiar A. Villanueva, just 25, an American hero.

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GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are looking at the case of Leslie Marva Adams, age 40. Very quickly, back to Ken Sugiura with the "Atlanta Journal-Constitution," Ken, what are police doing now?

SUGIURA: Police are -- they`re just trying to follow leads they have. They don`t have a lot of things to look at. Last week, they had a 27-man search of an area just north of Wilburn (ph). And they`re -- beyond that, though, I think they feel like they`re kind of running out of leads to work. But they`re just -- they`re using the information that they have, I think.

GRACE: To Jonna Spilbor, defense attorney, let`s talk about this boyfriend. She got the TRO out on him. He`s not a suspect in the case. If he knows anything, would you advise him to come forward or lay low?

JONNA SPILBOR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, again, I`ve got to say, much to dismay, Nancy, I would tell him not to say a word. And let me just say one thing about the TRO.

In this country, basically, we take a very better-safe-than-sorry approach, which means it`s not hard to get a TRO. Because what a judge will do -- if you get to the courthouse, you can sign your name, you can get a TRO, and then you have a hearing, which this guy showed up for. So if he killed her, why would he show up for the TRO hearing? That`s a very interesting point, to me.

GRACE: Pretty easily, I would guess, Alan Ripka, so it wouldn`t look as if he knew she wasn`t going to show up?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll tell you, Nancy, by the way this guy looks, he`s very composed. And I`ll tell you, he seems like he`d be the type of guy who knew how to plot and plan this out. And he doesn`t want to have himself on the radar and that`s why he showed up.

GRACE: Roberta Adams, where do we go from here?

ADAMS: We don`t give up. We keep going until we find her.

GRACE: Everybody, there`s a $25,000 reward for information on Leslie Marva Adams. This is Roberta`s sister. The phone number, again, 770-513- 5300. Please help us.

Thank you, Roberta.

But I want to thank all of my guests tonight. Our biggest thank you here is to you for being with us, inviting us and all of our legal stories into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END