Return to Transcripts main page

DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired December 2, 2005 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm basically an optimist. Not only do I tend to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but I worry a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody ever pretended international cooperation was easy. It is tough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: Critics say the once lauded now derided United Nations Human Rights Commission is a human rights violation on its own, but how would you revamp this 53 nation group?

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

The United Nations overall agrees some form of change is needed, but once again the larger 191 country membership is wrestling with the formula. This week, closed door debate on solutions began. It's not going to be easy. At the heart of the issue: which country should sit on the new human rights panel and should their own human rights record be used as criteria for membership.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAN ELIASON, U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY PRES.: Generally I think it is accepted that all member states have to accept that they are subject to human rights review. We cannot have selective approaches. We should all be living up to it and every nation must be reviewed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The United States is a strong proponent of keeping certain countries with poor human rights records according to Washington off any new human rights monitoring panel. The United States thinks the pace of negotiating is bogging down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: We are not making progress, adequate progress, to abolish the existing Human Rights Commission and establish a reform body and I'm quite concerned that we won't make it by the end of the year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: That was Ambassador Bolton.

Last week, the talks continued. One example where the dispute rages is Zimbabwe. Many U.N. members say the nation is violating its own citizens human rights. But the African nation thinks these are distortions overplaying civil rights while downplaying economic, social and cultural rights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MUGABE, ZIMBABWEAN PRES.: The whole human rights agenda instead of being a cooperative exercise has degenerated into a Western- managed kangaroo court, always looking out for criminals, as they call them, among developing countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Zimbabwe currently is a member of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, something the U.S. points to as a reason the United Nations is in need of reform.

We're pleased to welcome here in the studio Zimbabwe's United Nations Ambassador, Boniface Chidyausiku. And also with us, Hillel Neuer, the director of a group called U.N. Watch, a Geneva-based NGO that watches the United Nations.

Hillel, what's the latest on the fight for a new Human Rights Commission? What's really going on behind closed doors?

HILLEL NEUER, U.N. WATCH: Well, Richard, the world needs a credible U.N. body that will be a voice for victims of human rights violations, that will make a difference for women subjected to inequality and violence, to victims of state repression, censorship, torture, and Kofi Annan has said the Human Rights Commission has failed.

Now is our chance to reshape it into a new council that will be that voice.

ROTH: Zimbabwe is on the current Human Rights Commission. Is that acceptable to your organization?

NEUER: No. It's abysmal. Composition of the new council is the main critical element and we need to support Kofi Annan, who said that we need members who have a, quote, "solid record of commitment to the highest human rights standards."

Until now, and he said it, we've had politicization, selectivity, countries joining not to promote human rights but to shield their own records of abuse. Zimbabwe is one of those countries.

ROTH: Ambassador Chidyausiku, thank you for coming here not just to talk about your country but the whole Commission, but while we're talking about Zimbabwe, what's your response?

BONIFACE CHIDYAUSIKU, ZIMBABWEAN AMB. TO U.N.: Well, Zimbabwe in terms of its human rights record, I don't think is an exception in terms of observing human rights. You have countries like the United States, who have been on the Human Rights Commission for a long time, they have a sordid record on human rights and no one talks about it and we wonder why Zimbabwe, why not the United States. We don't have any detainees in Guantanamo Bay. Why is that not an issue in terms of human rights.

ROTH: Zimbabwe and other countries, do they feel that the United States is putting undue pressure on the United Nations to create these reforms so that the organization follows Washington's commands?

CHIDYAUSIKU: The United Nations is an intergovernmental organization made up of 191 members. And the United States happens to be one of those 191 members. Whatever direction the United Nations will take will have to be determined by the member states, not by one member state.

NEUER: The assertion that Zimbabwe is entitled to be on the Human Rights Commission is ridiculous. There are human rights violations everywhere. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Western nations should be scrutinized as well. But Zimbabwe is a place where there has been destruction of homes of 700,000 people, a country that was the breadbasket of Africa, there are now 4 million people who need food aid. Suppression of journalists, closing down of newspapers, prosecuting opposition members. And the notion that that country is equal to every other country is sheer moral irrelativism, and the United Nations was founded on moral clarity.

CHIDYAUSIKU: When one looks at Zimbabwe.

ROTH: And you can look at each other, by the way, while we're looking at Zimbabwe.

CHIDYAUSIKU: Sure. When one looks at Zimbabwe, just go on the Internet today and see what type of news comes from Zimbabwe. We have independent newspapers that are operating in Zimbabwe. They report freely and are not being prosecuted.

You go on the Internet today, you find the "Independent Standard," the "Financial Gazette."

NEUER: That's not what journalists are saying. Independent human rights experts have confirmed that there has been enormous suppression of journalism, closure of newspapers, these are facts, and this is a place where NGOs are persecuted under law, do not have the right to freely associate. There are no fair elections. I mean, Zimbabwe's record is abysmal.

And, you know, we just had a report by Human Rights Watch saying that the government is obstructing aid to the victims whose houses and livelihoods were destroyed, 700,000 people. They don't have shelter, they don't have food, they don't have sanitation.

ROTH: Jan Egeland, the chief humanitarian man for the United Nations, is going to go to Zimbabwe soon.

Go ahead.

CHIDYAUSIKU: You know, you cannot make an analysis of a country based in Geneva. You're not on the ground. You get your information from news reports. People who are being paid to say -- to paint certain pictures and to make very factual reports that is not correct.

At the present moment, we have Egeland going to Zimbabwe, to go and see for himself, to see the 700,000 that you're talking about, whether they in reality -- they are not there. Even when Tibaijuka entered Zimbabwe, she did not even see those 700,000.

ROTH: Tibaijuka is the U.N. habitat director, whose report was quite critical of your country.

CHIDYAUSIKU: Sure. But that 700,000, it's a fiction.

ROTH: It was Operation Restore Order, right? That's what it was called.

NEUER: It's confirmed by every independent human rights organization, by the United Nations, and, you know, this attempt by Robert Mugabe to paint this as an imperial plot, which is a consistent theme, is ridiculous. Anna Tibaijuka, Kofi Annan's envoy, neither her nor Kofi Annan are part of any Western plot.

Look, you know, the regimes say one thing but the people in Zimbabwe say something else and the NGOs from that region say that we want the governments to be held accountable.

ROTH: What's wrong with countries being chosen for the new human rights panel based upon their records? And how do you determine that?

CHIDYAUSIKU: OK. Our view -- every member of the United Nations has a right to sit on any body of the United Nations. We don't want a duplicate of a new Security Council or a club, where a few select individuals with the resources can sit on the council and keep out people that are not seen as being friendly. This is our argument. We don't want a human rights council where other members of the United Nations, who are members of a intergovernmental organization, to be banned from that type of.

ROTH: But you know there is damage being done to the organization by countries that people accuse of human rights violation of sitting in judgment of others. It's not just Zimbabwe people are talking about.

CHIDYAUSIKU: Can we say, if we want to have certain qualifications for people who should sit on the Human Rights Commission, can we say people who have used the atomic bomb on a country?

ROTH: But that's a different situation? We're not facing.

CHIDYAUSIKU: We are saying, can we come up with qualifications? Where would we stop in qualifying members? Who will determine those qualifications?

ROTH: So, Hillel, what is the solution? You're going to hear this inside the United Nations; 191 countries, who gets to decide who is a violator and who gets to judge?

NEUER: Richard, there is no magic solution, but let's recognize the facts and let's support Kofi Annan, who said that we basically have the fox guarding the chickens and it hasn't worked. We've had Cuba, we've had Libya as chair, we've had a situation where Sudan, which is committing mass rape, killings, displacement, affecting hundreds of thousands of people, is automatically reelected on the commission.

ROTH: Sudan is going to lead the African Union.

NEUER: Where does it end? There is a way to draw the line. There is no automatic criteria. There are proposals. Some propose those countries under measures -- under chapter 7 of the charter, be disqualified.

ROTH: What should Zimbabwe do to be worthy of sitting, in your view, on a revamped commission?

NEUER: Well, first of all, Zimbabwe's got to begin respecting the U.N. charter, the universal declaration of human rights, from A to Z.

But just, you know, Richard.

ROTH: We only have less than a minute.

NEUER: The General Assembly members will have to be accountable for their votes. If they vote for a country, they're going to have to explain to the United Nations and to their population why they voted for a given country and that country has to give forth a platform of its commitment to human rights and what it's going to achieve.

ROTH: The final word -- Ambassador.

CHIDYAUSIKU: As a member of the United Nations, every member has a right to appear or to serve on the Human Rights Commission. In terms of qualifications, there is no country that has a clean record, which can say that, you know -- which can sit in judgment.

For example, how many people are dying in Iraq on a daily basis because of the United States? Why hasn't anybody queried why the United States is on the Human Rights Commission today?

NEUER: Every country can be scrutinized, but the notion that every country should sit in judgment on others has failed. Kofi Annan has said it's failed and it's casting a shadow on the reputation of the United Nations as a whole.

CHIDYAUSIKU: The British government has just been trying to pass legislation in the United Kingdom, and even their record in Iraq.

NEUER: Every country should be scrutinized equally and your country should be forced to present what its commitment is to human rights and to defend its record and be accountable to somebody.

CHIDYAUSIKU: We agree, everybody should be accountable, not just Zimbabwe. Every country.

ROTH: All right, now you're seeing why nobody expects an agreement by the end of this year, and we'll see what happens in the new year.

Hillel Neuer, of U.N. Watch, based in Geneva, thank you. And Ambassador Boniface Chidyausiku, of Zimbabwe, a U.N. ambassador, you were formerly posted in Angola, right, and in China, I think?

CHIDYAUSIKU: And in Geneva.

ROTH: And Geneva. You have something in common.

Thanks very much for debating here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE on human rights.

There are a bevy of special investigators who report to the Human Rights Commission. First they make field visits. The Special Rapporteur on Torture, Manfred Nowak, became the first U.N. investigator to visit China his week. He said many measures of torture are used in China. Nowak considers the practice there on the decline but still widespread.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANFRED NOWAK, U.N. SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON TORTURE: The whole criminal system, criminal procedure, criminal law, needs to be brought in line with international accepted minimum standards of fair trial. It's documented that the crime of torture under Chinese criminal law does not fully comply with the definition in article 1 of the United Nations convention against torture. In other words, torture is defined here in much more restrictive terms, primarily physical torture that actually leads to physical injuries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's serious. It's a very serious situation. It's fragile and creates real problems in terms of the operational capacity of the organization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The delivery may be dry but the threat isn't. U.N. Financial Controller Warren Sach (ph) saying this end of the year budget squabble could affect many branches of the organization: salaries, equipment, the U.N. missions. It's also turning into a good story for two of our U.N.- based journalists.

At the CNN office at the United Nations, Philippe Bolopion of "Le Monde" and Radio France Internationale. And with me here in the studio, Ricardo Alday, of the Mexican news agency Notomex.

Philippe, by week's end the U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has postponed a trip this week into Asia because of the struggle to agree on a new budget, which has turned into a battleground on the sensitive issue of U.N. reform. What's the latest?

PHILIPPE BOLOPION, "LE MONDE": Well, I think what we have looming on the horizon is an American-engineered crisis. I think to begin we have to give credit to John Bolton for what he is trying to achieve. He is trying to move forward the reform process. He wants to create a credible Human Rights Commission. He wants to give more flexibility to the U.N. secretariat in its work, and all of that is a good idea. It's supported by Kofi Annan. Even the Europeans agree with that.

What's wrong is the way he's trying to achieve that, because basically what he is doing is he is taking the budget hostage and he is saying, well, if your guys don't vote for all of these reforms that we, the United States.

ROTH: But why shouldn't he do that? I mean, they've been delaying and delaying, as we saw earlier in our show, on human rights. I mean, they're never going to agree on anything. They do need a little brinksmanship.

BOLOPION: They do need one, but the question with diplomats is always how far are you willing to go and, you know, if you block the United Nations, if you prevent it from doing its job, which is a very important job everywhere in the world, then you're not achieving anything because all of these countries -- it's mainly third world countries that are blocking that, in part because they feel that Western countries are too arrogant, are trying to strip them from their powers, and if you antagonize them they just are not going to vote for your reforms.

RICARDO ALDAY, NOTOMEX: And just to emphasize on this point, Richard, the fact of the matter also is one of style. Most diplomats don't like, as we've seen over the past weeks and months, the style of Ambassador Bolton, his bluntness is unheard of in the corridors of the organization. So it's, I think, it's a combination of both, not only the proposal itself, but also the way he delivers his points.

ROTH: It wasn't too long ago you had the bulldozer, Richard Holbrook, there, late night negotiations on assessments, and people didn't like it either.

ALDAY: But I think there is a little difference there. Bolton doesn't seem to want to compromise, as much as he says so --

ROTH: And a different administration.

ALDAY: -- and a different administration also. And Holbrook seemed to be more prone to consensus and to talk to other ambassadors and try for a compromise.

ROTH: Philippe?

BOLOPION: I think John Bolton sort of surprised when he arrived, because actually he sort of commanded respect from his colleagues, because he is good at what he is doing. He knows the issues inside and out. He is very good at setting the agenda, but his problem is that he's not very good at the daily work of diplomacy, which is to convince people to join your position. That he doesn't know how to do. He knows how to threaten, he knows how to advance his own agenda, but he doesn't know how to go this extra mile, and what we -- all of that happened already during the G8 in September.

ROTH: The United States wants an interim budget to tide it over. As he said on Friday, Bolton said, it should be reform driving the budget process. The secretary-general cancelled his trip for now, Philippe, to Asia, and Bolton kind of made it seem like it was his idea, but then the United Nations says look, hundreds of other countries thought it was best that Annan stay for the budget showdown.

BOLOPION: You could see that Annan was really not happy with his comments, and he said it -- he really insisted it was his decision and you can tell that there is a lot of tension right now between him and the United States. He doesn't like what's happening right now. It's putting him in a very uncomfortable situation, and it's not a good way to engage the whole reform process.

Even the Europeans, even the British, are pretty uncomfortable with the way Mr. Bolton is dealing with the situation, and I wouldn't be surprised if in the end, as she has been doing in September, Condoleezza Rice steps in and says, look, this is going too far, we don't need to have such a bad rap in the United Nations, even for the reform, and you just have to vote this budget.

ALDAY: And I think not only the Europeans, mainly the Europeans, I mean, are obviously looking for that avenue, but many other countries from the G77, the ones blocking the reform, or allegedly blocking the reform, doesn't want to keep going in the same direction they've been going. They need -- they're willing to see some give from the United States, something to bargain on.

ROTH: Well, on a final note, John Bolton did have some success. After he demanded a Security Council briefing on Myanmar, a country that's never been on the agenda there, China finally said yes and sometime in the future, maybe it will be Kofi Annan, Myanmar will be discussed informally, only at the Security Council.

BOLOPION: By the way, Richard.

ROTH: Very briefly.

BOLOPION: It's the same John Bolton who said it was not interesting to have a briefing on Sudan and to listen to what the genocide envoy had to say, because he said we don't need another briefing on these questions, we need action.

ROTH: OK. Point made. Philippe Bolopion, of Radio France Internationale and "Le Monde," double duty, double hatted, at the CNN U.N. office. Thank you. Ricardo Alday, of the Mexican news agency Notomex, here in the studio with us, thank you very much.

For U.N. journalists, you see the same thing almost every day outside the U.N. Security Council. But not Friday. It was the annual U.N. staff day, which featured a rare procession past U.N. TV cameras, though one peacekeeper seemed a little tardy there getting caught up in the photography. When you're actually at the United Nations, you really talk many times to just men in suits. But Kofi Annan himself had to concede it was a tough year for the organization when he spoke in a Q&A with the U.N. staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GENERAL: Maybe it's an understatement if I say that it's been a real rollercoaster for all of us, and I believe that when you read in the press some of the things that has happened, what has happened must not be allowed to taint the good reputation of most of the staff members, the dedication, the idealism, with which you approach your work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAN ANNAN, WIFE OF KOFI ANNAN: The good news is that there is evidence of HIV prevention programs helping to lower adult HIV infection rates in some countries. The bad news is that the overall number of people living with HIV continues to increase in most regions of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Nan Annan, wife of the U.N. secretary-general, visiting the African Services Committee in Harlem in New York for World AIDS Day. The group provides social services to thousands in New York and runs an HIV testing and prevention program in Ethiopia.

We opened the program on human rights and we're going to close it that way. Deeply personal stories told by three people honored last month at the annual Human Rights Watch dinner in New York. The organization highlights three brave activists from Iran, Uganda and Sudan, risking their lives to defend the dignity and rights of others.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OMID MEMARIAN, IRANIAN JOURNALIST: I was in a prison cell alone for 55 days. One of the purposes of the solitary confinement is to cut all of your connections to the outside world. They tell you no one outside cares about you.

The critical issue is making sure activists and journalists in Iran can be heard, and we can, on the Internet. The government expends a huge amount of money trying to control the Internet, but it will not succeed. They can shut down a Web site, they can arrest a journalist, but they cannot stop the trend.

BEATRICE WERE, UGANDAN AIDS ACTIVIST: When I learned that I was HIV positive, my in-laws were ashamed by the stigma of this disease and they got to profit from my misfortune. They attempted to steal my property, disinherit me and take custody of my two children.

But I fought back. I kept my children and my property and I decided to work on behalf of other widows who shared this same suffering the way I did. My organization has helped tens of thousands of HIV positive mothers talk openly to their children and prepare them to be orphans one day.

SALIH MAHMOUD OSMAN, SUDANESE LAWYER: Every day I see people targeted by the government, abused and even tortured. Many members of my own family have been killed, tortured and burned out of their homes by the janjaweed militias who are supported and controlled by the government of Sudan. We ask not to be forgotten. We ask not to be forgotten.

JANE OLSEN, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I know that you join me in honoring Omid, Salih and Beatrice. They are such inspiring people and they demonstrate that we will not stand by and do nothing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: And a human rights update on last week's program. Senegal is now leaving it up to the African Union as a whole to decide whether former Chad ruler Hissene Habre is extradited to face murder and torture accusations filed by Belgium.

That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth, in New York. Thanks for watching.

END

TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com