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American Morning

Saddam Hussein On Trial; Al Qaeda Terrorist Killed?

Aired December 05, 2005 - 06:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Miles O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The morning commute not yet under way, as you can see.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We can beat the traffic on this shift.

S. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

M. O'BRIEN: That is for sure.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, it's so cold outside today.

S. O'BRIEN: I know. And the snow over the weekend, yesterday.

COSTELLO: Yes, it's all freezing. It's really crunchy now. Yesterday it was kind of mushy, because it was mixed with rain. But now it's cold this morning.

M. O'BRIEN: First snowman of the season made right there in the park. It was good. It was good.

COSTELLO: Cool.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: Being from Atlanta you'd like that.

M. O'BRIEN: We did. The kids were quite excited. Very excited about that.

S. O'BRIEN: Look, snow! Snow!

Lots to talk about this morning, and lots of news from overseas as well. Carol has got a look at that.

COSTELLO: Yes. You mentioned before, the first witness in the Saddam Hussein trial stood up and essentially and told the defendants to go to hell. Well, Saddam Hussein -- I've got more to tell you about.

His legal team gets its way. About 20 minutes into the trial, Saddam's lawyers argued with the judge, and then they walked out. The group came back about a half-hour ago when the chief judge said he would allow the lawyers to have their say. Not only the lawyers apparently. It seems one of the judges on the stand just a short time ago, as I said, told Saddam to go to hell. And you're seeing a live picture of him right now.

Much more to come on the trial ongoing in Iraq right now.

Iraq's former prime minister, Iyad Allawi, is campaigning for a seat in the Iraqi parliament. Take a look. It has not been easy for him. Iraq's former leader was pummeled with shoes while rallying at a shrine in Najaf. The crowd fell back after bodyguards fired some warning shots. Allawi calls the attack an assassination attempt. No one was hurt. Iraqis go the polls in a parliamentary election next week.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is trying to straighten things out in Europe. Some European governments have been complaining about reports of secret CIA prisons and treatment of detainees. Secretary Rice says the U.S. acts legally and does not ship suspected terrorists around the globe to be tortured. She leaves in the next hour for a tour of European capitals, and she'll start in Berlin.

Lionel Tate, remember him? He's due back in court today. Tate, who was convicted at the age of 13 of killing a playmate, became the youngest person ever sentenced to life in prison. Tate was put on probation when that conviction was thrown out. The judge will decide whether Tate violated that probation during an alleged robbery.

CNN's John Zarrella is live at the courthouse. He'll come your way in the next hour of AMERICAN MORNING.

The Red Cross is taking steps to diversify. According to "The Washington Post," the Red Cross is launching a minority outreach program after Katrina. Some members of Congress and minority groups say there weren't enough translators during the relief efforts, and there was a lack of cultural awareness. One man says he felt like Caucasian volunteers at a Red Cross shelter were treating him like -- quote -- "cattle." The Red Cross says most of the problems are a matter of perception, not racism.

And take a look at this, sports fans. Duke and Virginia Tech were battling it out on Sunday night with just over one second on the clock. Can you believe that? The Blue Devils Sean Dockery sank a 40- foot shot, stopping Virginia's comeback to win 77-75. And the crowd goes wild. Dockery saved top-ranked Duke's undefeated season and also scored a career high 19 points. I think he has a future in the NBA. Don't you?

JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Oh, that is the money shot.

COSTELLO: It was awesome, wasn't it?

JERAS: That's a once in a lifetime. Yes, like, you'll never do that again...

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I bet he's watched that a million times, because I know his family TiVo'd that, Jacqui.

JERAS: I'm sure they did. He'll be showing his kids and his grandkids and their kids.

COSTELLO: It's true.

JERAS: Absolutely.

COSTELLO: All right. Tell us about the snow.

(WEATHER REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Once again, as we've been telling you, the Saddam Hussein trial is back on. There was a 90-minute recess after the defense team for Saddam Hussein and his co-defendants stormed out. One of the issues they're concerned about is whether a foreign attorney specifically in this case, former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, can address the court. And after that recess, Ramsey Clark did, in fact, address the court.

Joining me now to talk about all of this is Michael Scharf. He's a law professor. He helped train the Iraqi judges and prosecutors in the case. And, boy, do they have their hands full. He joins us from Cleveland.

Michael, lots to talk about here. Ramsey Clark got up and he said essentially, reconciliation is essential. This trial can divide or heal. Unless it is seen as absolutely fair and fair in fact, it will divide rather than reconcile Iraq.

No truer words have been spoken. But once again, the discussion is all about the process, all about the trial, all about the judicial system. So far not a word yet that we've heard about the actual crimes committed.

MICHAEL SCHARF, CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY: Well, you know, Ramsey Clark, he's the Johnnie Cochran of these international trials.

And what's interesting is all of these pretrial motions were supposed to have been done a month ago. There should have been a pretrial motion to question the legitimacy of this tribunal. And the defense had said they thought it was illegitimate because it was set up by an occupying government. There should have been briefs on that. That should have been completely heard before the court. It should have gone up on appeal. None of that was ever filed on time.

Now, here comes Ramsey Clark. He arrives on his white horse after the trial has already begun. And he wants to begin this process anew.

Now, of course, the judge has to allow him to do this, or the judge will be seen as unfair. But it is certainly part of Ramsey and the defense team's effort to derail the trial.

M. O'BRIEN: All right. But the defense team does have a good point. I mean, after all, two defense attorneys were assassinated in the midst -- since this all began. And in the midst of all of those security concerns, and the fact that those lawyers had to be replaced, you can understand why it would be difficult to get these cases ready.

SCHARF: Well, yes and no. I mean, the tribunal itself has an army of academic consortiums, like the one at Case Western Reserve that I run, working on these issues around the clock back home. And the defense team has a hundred different lawyers around the world that could have been working on these papers to be filed before the court.

On the other hand, yes, it was a distraction for the defense. They were focused completely on their boycott, and they didn't want to be seen as cooperating with the tribunal until they got their security, something that is now happening.

But more importantly, Ramsey Clark is also going to be challenging the fact that he does not know who the other four judges are. The world only knows the one judge, Judge Amin. And for there to be fair trial, the defense has to be able to know who the judges are so that they can raise the question of whether there are any biases or any reason to have them removed, and...

M. O'BRIEN: And so you would agree that they should be made public, their identities.

SCHARF: I do think so, and I think ultimately we're going to find out who they are.

Now, of course, I trained all of the judges, and I know -- I've seen their resumes. I know they've been carefully vetted. Eventually when the defense team knows who they are, I don't think they're going to have a problem with them. But they have to have that information.

It's a question of balancing security and due process. And ultimately due process has to win out here.

M. O'BRIEN: Judge Rizgar Mohammed Amin, the chief judge, the one we've seen. I know you have had extensive dealings with him. And you have a lot of respect for him. So far, has he been able to walk that tightrope between keeping this court in order and not making it look as if it's an unfair proceeding?

SCHARF: Well, the thing that's nice about him is that he is able to make course corrections. He's a flexible jurist. He knows that he has to give a lot of leeway to the defense, because the most important thing is not to have this trial look like it is not fair. I mean, Ramsey Clark is absolutely right when he says that reconciliation rests partly on the success of this trial.

What's ironic, though, is that the next stage of Ramsey's defense is going to be to try to turn this trial into a trial of the United States and its continuing forces in Iraq, which actually will probably have the effect of destabilizing Iraq, which is the exact opposite thing of what he says he wants this trial to accomplish.

M. O'BRIEN: An interesting twist. Michael Scharf, stand by. We'll talk with you again in our next hour as the trial continues -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Ahead this morning, one of Osama bin Laden's top men is killed. Are we any closer to finding bin Laden himself? A look at that ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: This is very nice.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Yes, I know.

M. O'BRIEN: You know, if you think about it, this plant, which was appropriated from the Lou Dobbs' set...

SERWER: It was.

M. O'BRIEN: ... it's like an illegal immigrant.

(CROSSTALK)

SERWER: Lou, we'll return it.

M. O'BRIEN: We promise, Lou Dobbs.

SERWER: We shall return this plant.

M. O'BRIEN: The borders are broken.

S. O'BRIEN: The broken borders.

SERWER: Oh, no.

S. O'BRIEN: We're moving on.

It's going to cost more this Christmas, but this is not why we have the poinsettia here. Why am I holding your poinsettia?

SERWER: Well, no, those are going to cost more. Those are going to cost more.

S. O'BRIEN: For everything, yes.

SERWER: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: Unless you take them from Lou Dobbs' set.

SERWER: Right.

S. O'BRIEN: This one didn't cost us a dime. What are you talking about?

SERWER: All right, here's what we're going to talk about. Some unusual economic fallout from this fall's hurricane. Would you believe holiday plants? That, of course, is a poinsettia. And South Florida's crop, where many, many of these babies are grown, was completely wiped out by Hurricane Wilma. The good news is they also grow these plants in North Carolina and Virginia. But prices will be up. They may be scarce. It used to be about $13 to $40 a plant. You will probably be paying more than that.

The poinsettia, by the way, was named after our nation's first ambassador to Mexico, one Joel Roberts Poinsett (ph). They made their American debut in 1825 when this ambassador sent samples from Mexico to his home in Greenville, South Carolina.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh.

SERWER: So that is the origin of the poinsettia.

M. O'BRIEN: Wait a minute. So he went to Mexico...

SERWER: Found one of these things.

M. O'BRIEN: ... found the plant...

SERWER: And he sent it home.

M. O'BRIEN: ... and it gets named after him?

SERWER: Yes. No, it's not the O'Brien holiday plant.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, there you have it.

SERWER: Let's talk...

S. O'BRIEN: It probably had a name in Mexico, too.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Don't you think there's probably...

S. O'BRIEN: Broken borders.

SERWER: Yes. See, it is a border sort of thing, I guess, right.

M. O'BRIEN: It is. That's what I'm...

(CROSSTALK)

SERWER: All right, I want to talk about...

S. O'BRIEN: I got you. I'm with you.

SERWER: You're driving it home. I want to talk about Christmas trees.

S. O'BRIEN: Come on, my man, I got you back.

SERWER: Do you want to talk about Christmas trees a little bit?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes.

SERWER: OK.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes.

SERWER: Christmas trees...

M. O'BRIEN: Well, holiday trees, please.

S. O'BRIEN: No.

SERWER: No, they're Christmas trees. And the prices of them are up this year. There is a Christmas tree farm. The average price in America for a Christmas tree is $42. But it varies wildly. For instance, if you're going to buy one in Manhattan, you're going to pay $100 plus.

S. O'BRIEN: Oh, I paid 70 a couple of years ago!

SERWER: Plus. Yes, well...

S. O'BRIEN: And then I had to carry it home myself.

SERWER: Yes.

S. O'BRIEN: I lived in a walkup. That was horrible.

SERWER: Yes. But the point here is that fuel costs are driving the prices of Christmas trees up at least $3 to $5 per tree. So, in other words, when a hurricane comes, it makes gas prices more expensive. That goes to the truckers, and the truckers pass it on to all of us.

S. O'BRIEN: We all pay.

SERWER: That's right. So, the hurricanes affecting the prices of poinsettias and Christmas trees.

S. O'BRIEN: I feel like I'm...

M. O'BRIEN: You know...

S. O'BRIEN: ... in Ec. 101 here.

M. O'BRIEN: ... this is...

SERWER: Yes, high demand.

(CROSSTALK)

M. O'BRIEN: This is (INAUDIBLE) on the hurricanes we had not yet gotten to.

SERWER: And you can say poinsettia or poinsettia, by the way.

M. O'BRIEN: Either, either.

SERWER: Either, right. M. O'BRIEN: Tomato, tomato kind of thing.

SERWER: Yes. That looks great with you.

S. O'BRIEN: Miles and I got you a little something actually (INAUDIBLE). You can keep it. Just do whatever you want with it.

SERWER: Oh, yes, probably just put it right in front of me. Thank you.

M. O'BRIEN: That's from us. We re-gifted it.

SERWER: Oh, thank you. And I'm going to re-gift it to Lou.

S. O'BRIEN: We stole it.

SERWER: Lou, I'm going to bring this back, I promise.

S. O'BRIEN: We stole it and re-gifted it.

SERWER: OK.

M. O'BRIEN: All right.

S. O'BRIEN: Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

S. O'BRIEN: Ahead this morning, we are talking about the war on terror. Another one of Osama bin Laden's top commanders is killed. Is the U.S., though, any closer to finding Osama bin Laden himself? A look at that up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: A developing story in Iraq now, another day of high drama in the Saddam Hussein trial. The trial is back on.

Aneesh Raman live, watching it for us from Baghdad.

Aneesh, the first witness is on the stand. What do we know about him and what he is saying?

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, after a morning of chaos, riveting scenes from inside the trial of Saddam Hussein. As you say, the first witness, Ahmed Hassan Mohammed (ph), a resident of Dujail, effectively laying out in specifics what happened in July, 1982. The thousands, he says, of villagers that were thrown in jail, the over 140 that were killed after Saddam survived an assassination attempt there.

But this is really the first time an Iraqi has had the chance in a public setting like this to confront the former dictator, his regime leaders that ruled their lives for decades. And he has done so with eloquence, with confidence. At one point, Barzan Hasan (ph), Saddam Hussein's half-brother, interrupted, starting yelling back. The witness asked him to simply be quiet. And his testimony continues -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Aneesh, it's just hard to imagine the kinds of emotions that this person is going through right now as he faces the regime, the former regime, accused of all of these atrocities. To hear you say with calm eloquence he can state his case is actually quite remarkable.

RAMAN: It is. And it's alarming to watch. It's fascinating to watch. He began reading the names of those that he knows were killed by this regime after that assassination attempt, asked if he could read them all. The court asked him only to read a few.

He interrupted at one point and said, if Saddam interferes it's his business. Saddam said, don't worry about me. And he went on -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Aneesh Raman in Baghdad watching it for us. Thanks very much.

We've got more news. Carol Costello is here with that.

Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.

U.S. officials are getting a report card on security, and it is full of F's. The 9/11 Commission says the U.S. is not prepared for another terrorist attack. The co-chair, Lee Hamilton, blames what he calls too many competing priorities. The official report is set to be released later this morning. We'll keep you posted.

Doctors say the woman who received the world's first partial face transplant is doing just fine. They're concerned about the potential psychological effects of receiving someone else's face. You see a picture of it there in "The Daily Telegraph." The procedure was done eight days ago, and so far so good. But some say her doctors unnecessarily went ahead with a radical and untested new procedure.

Some hurricane victims are getting unexpected help with their bills. The Federal Housing Administration says it will pay home mortgages for some 20,000 people for up to one year. The program is for people who owned homes with FHA-insured mortgages in parts of the Gulf Coast. It's expected to cost the administration $200 million.

The weather outside is frightening. Let's check in with Jacqui Jeras.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Let's take you to Pakistan now. There is still no hard confirmation, but the number three man in al Qaeda is believed to be dead -- killed, in fact, in Pakistan by an American missile.

The Pakistanis say Abu Hamza Rabia died in an explosion. The U.S. is saying only it would be good is he's dead.

Let's get right to terrorism expert Sajjan Gohel. He's in our London bureau this morning.

Sajjan, thanks for talking with us this morning. He's described -- Rabia is described as a top lieutenant in al Qaeda. And there seem to be so many top lieutenants in al Qaeda. How important is this guy?

SAJJAN GOHEL, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Well, Soledad, after every al Qaeda individual is captured or killed, the tag of number three seems to pass on to the next individual.

And this is the problem is that al Qaeda itself has altered from being an organization. It's now an ideological movement. The two key members are, of course, Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al- Zawahiri. The number three doesn't actually exist anymore. The last key operation leader was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who planned the 9/11 atrocities, and he was arrested in March, 2003 in Pakistan.

So, this tag is actually incorrect for people to attribute to these new al Qaeda people that have been captured or killed.

S. O'BRIEN: OK. So, then regardless of his number, what's the significance if he's been killed?

GOHEL: Well, of course, any al Qaeda terrorist that is eliminated or arrested is important, because firstly it prevents terrorists from carrying out or planning new attacks. If they're captured, perhaps new intelligence could be found out as to where the terrorists are based, like bin Laden.

But the problem is that there are too many of these random individuals being picked up, and ultimately it's not going to create a major blow the terrorist infrastructure and, I think, unlikely it's going to lead us any closer to Osama bin Laden.

S. O'BRIEN: There are reports from the locals that an American missile is what caused his death. And I think we have a graphic of this, because we've seen pictures of them -- there you go -- holding what appears to be a piece of a missile with the English writing on it. Would that be significant, do you think?

GOHEL: It is an interesting development, because in the past the U.S., particularly the CIA and the FBI, have been able to obtain key information, passed that on to the Pakistanis, and then try and attribute an arrest. But the problem has been there has been major uncertainty as to whether the Pakistanis will carry out the job properly. Sometimes elements within the security operations actually inform the terrorists beforehand.

So, the U.S. feels now that it has to conduct some of its operations by itself, because only then can it guarantee some road to success.

S. O'BRIEN: Terror expert Sajjan Gohel for us this morning in our London bureau. Sajjan, thanks. Coming up this morning, we're going to continue to watch this developing story out of Iraq. Saddam Hussein's lawyers back in court. They stormed out a little bit earlier this morning. We've got a full report for you right at the top of the hour. We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

S. O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. We have been following what has been truly dramatic this morning, the Saddam Hussein trial. It resumed after a short break, and then the defense attorneys stormed out. At one point the defendants themselves were standing up and short of shouting things in the courtroom. But right now...

COSTELLO: Yes, Saddam Hussein was standing up and said, "Long live Iraq."

S. O'BRIEN: Shouting it a couple of times in the courtroom. You're looking right now at Ahmed Hassan Mohammed (ph). He is a witness who -- and really the first. And what dramatic testimony he has been sharing. He's been sort of breaking down in the middle of this testimony. Sometimes he's very, very calm, and then sometimes just in tears, sobbing, as he talks about his own brother being tortured in the wake of Saddam Hussein's visit to Dujail, which then in the end resulted in a massacre of many of the men and young boys, boys as young as 9, who were killed by the regime...

COSTELLO: And he might have been crying, but at the beginning he was angry, because he told the defendants, he looked right at them, and he said, you can go to hell.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes.

M. O'BRIEN: Yes. Well, it's interesting just looking at his demeanor there. He's obviously had plenty of time to think about what he would say to Saddam Hussein if he had the opportunity. And it's interesting to see Saddam Hussein.

I want to talk a little bit later, I think, today about Saddam Hussein's demeanor. We were talking about the way he dresses and his poetry. But his demeanor seems to be back to the dictatorial Saddam Hussein, not the spider hole Saddam Hussein.

(CROSSTALK)

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, I don't think he's ever shaken that off. We're going to talk about this a lot more this morning. As we approach the top of the hour, though, we want to get right to Jacqui Jeras. She's tracking the first major winter storm of the season.

(WEATHER REPORT)

JERAS: The next hour of AMERICAN MORNING starts right now.

S. O'BRIEN: Thanks, Jacqui. I'm Soledad O'Brien.

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