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PAULA ZAHN NOW
United States Not Prepared For Another 9/11?; Has Convicted California Murderer Earned Redemption?; Interview With Former Senator Bob Kerrey
Aired December 5, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everyone. We appreciate your being with us.
It has been more than four years now since 9/11. Our enemies have declared they still want to kill as many Americans as possible. So, why aren't we ready to stop them?
ZAHN (voice-over): Charges we're not ready for a major terrorist attack, for another 9/11.
THOMAS KEAN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: It's scandalous.
ZAHN: Tonight, outrage at how slowly it's changing for our police and firefighters, our airports and our politicians. Former 9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey will join us.
What would you do? Police wanted help finding a bank robber.
JARED GINGLEN, SON OF WILLIAM ALFRED GINGLEN: Those pictures, I had no doubt that it was our father.
CLAY GINGLEN, SON OF WILLIAM ALFRED GINGLEN: I went instantly cold.
ZAHN: A terrible choice -- would his own sons turn him in?
And should he live?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He started a very, very violent gang.
ZAHN: He's a murderer -- his execution just days away. But his books for children have saved lives. Has he earned his redemption? One victim's mother says no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will be standing there, in the name of Albert and his father, watching that execution.
ZAHN: As you will see shortly, it's quite literally a dark and very stormy night in Washington, though swirling snow and howling winds are also a perfect analogy for the storm that has been raging all day inside the corners of power. More than four years after the 9/11 attacks, the members of the former 9/11 Commission issued a scathing report card on our national security. And, just hours ago, the commission's former chairman says we are so poorly prepared, it's a scandal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEAN: Four years after 9/11, it is a scandal that police and firefighters in large cities still can't talk to each other reliably when they are hit with a major crisis. It's scandalous that airline passengers are still not screened against all names on a terrorist watch list. It is scandalous that we still allocate -- allocate scarce homeland security dollars on the basis of pork-barrel spending and not on risk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So, tonight, we begin with the CNN "Security Watch." What exactly has gone wrong? And why aren't we ready?
National security correspondent David Ensor looks over the report card.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They were in the audience, as the former 9/11 Commission gave the government dismal grades for Homeland Security, family members of those killed on September 11.
CAROL ASHLEY, DAUGHTER KILLED IN SEPTEMBER 11 TERRORIST ATTACK: It's very ironic and very terrible to me that -- that, overseas, we're combating terrorism, and, yet, here, we are -- we're being left in the lurch.
TIMOTHY ROEMER, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: If my children were to receive this report card, they would have to repeat a grade. We can't afford to repeat the lessons of 9/11 and the losses of 9/11.
ENSOR: On the report card issued today by the former 9/11 Commission, the government got an F for congressional failure to set aside special radio channels for first-responders, Army, police, fire departments, something Hurricane Katrina showed is needed for every kind of disaster.
JAMES THOMPSON, FORMER 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: Are we going to send policemen and firemen in this nation in to battle against evil without the ability to talk to each other? Are we crazy?
MARY FETCHET, SON KILLED IN SEPTEMBER 11 TERRORIST ATTACK: We lost our 24-year-old son Brad. He was in tower two. And, I mean, just to use him as an example, they were told to remain in the building. Had the first-responders been able to communicate about open stairwells, he and about -- probably about 700 other individuals could be alive today. ENSOR: The former commissioners gave the government an F, too, for failing to build a single terrorist watch list for airlines. Remember the chilling images of Mohamed Atta making his way through airport security on September 11?
Former commissioners said something like that could happen again.
KEAN: It's scandalous that airline passengers are still not screened against all names on a terrorist watch list.
ENSOR: And an F for failing to hand out homeland security money to the states and cities most at risk.
KEAN: One city used its Homeland Security money for air- conditioned garbage trucks.
ENSOR: And the Bush administration got a D on its efforts to help secure nuclear materials and other weapons of mass destruction in the former Soviet Union and around the world.
The leading White House official on terrorism, Fran Townsend, doesn't agree with the negative assessment.
(on camera): Do you think the Bush administration deserves failing grades for its effort on Homeland Security?
FRANCES TOWNSEND, WHITE HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: Well, no, I don't think we deserve failing grades, but I don't think the grades are what is important, David. I think what's important is what we have accomplished and what we have done to secure the nation. And that's an enormous, enormous amount.
ENSOR (voice-over): Townsend points to the National Counterterrorism Center, the new intelligence chief, and heightened security at key facilities nationwide.
RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's not a very good report card for the administration or for the Congress. And, unfortunately, I don't think it's going to be taken very seriously.
ENSOR: The former commissioners are only private citizens now. Their opinions get attention.
But to break the long jams -- the logjams on some of these issues may take some serious lobbying of Congress. And that, of course, could be where the 9/11 families come in -- Paula.
ZAHN: David Ensor, thanks for the update.
And joining me now here in New York, one of the most outspoken members of the 9/11 Commission, former U.S. Senator Bob Kerrey, who is now president of the New School here in New York.
Good of you to join us. BOB KERREY (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Nice to be with you.
ZAHN: Let's start off tonight talking about the sense of urgency. Today, Chairman Kean also said that -- quote -- "While the terrorists are learning and adapting, our government is still moving at a crawl."
Who do you blame for that?
KERREY: Well, I blame both the administration and Congress.
On the administration side -- I mean, Tom Kean laid it out very clearly. It is scandalous that our first-responders still can't talk to each other, scandalous that the terrorist watch list doesn't screen out every single terrorist that -- potential terrorist that is on our airlines. It is scandalous that we still spend the money without establishing what the priorities are.
The administration is fighting a battle to preserve the right to torture. And they are fighting Congress over that issue. And they are not fighting the Congress in trying to get the spectrum for our first-responders, trying to get a seamless communication system. And Congress, for its part, you got, like, Curt Weldon running around whacking the 9/11 Commission. It doesn't have -- we don't have any power left.
I would say to Mr. Weldon, if you are concerned about Able Danger, why don't you subpoena the Department of Defense? Why don't you subpoena Stephen Hadley? Instead, they are running around, you know, running their mouth, talking about how the 9/11 Commission didn't do everything it was supposed to do.
We -- we only had the subpoena power for 15 months.
KERREY: So, Congress needs to exert the kind of oversight that's required, whether you have a Republican or a Democratic administration, that's going to tend to want to say, we're doing all we can. We're doing a good job. We make a list. The White House today puts a list out of things that they have done, and they were referencing the wrong report.
ZAHN: All right.
ZAHN: Well, what they did reference was the fact that they said that it has acted on 70 of the 74 recommendations of the September 11 report...
KERREY: No. It was not...
ZAHN: ... which was your original report. KERREY: No.
They implemented the recommendations of the weapons of mass destruction report. That's the report that the -- that the -- that Bartlett was referencing today. Then they have to come out and correct themselves.
The problem is, they can get away with it. They can -- they can say, look at all the things we have done. Well, that isn't good enough against terrorism, because, as Tom Kean said, these guys are entrepreneurial. They are making all kinds of changes. And we're moving at a very slow pace. You take the director of national intelligence.
I mean, our worst fears appear to be coming true. It looks like it's becoming another bureaucracy, layered on the top of the existing -- 800 people that they have hired. I don't see the -- I don't see the deliverables. I don't see the results.
It's true we are safer than we were four years ago. But, unfortunately, that's a pretty low standard to be set.
ZAHN: All right. All right.
So, if you could pick up the phone tomorrow and call any one person in Washington that would help unlock what you perceive as a logjam, who would that be?
KERREY: I would...
ZAHN: Where would you start?
KERREY: I would say to the president, get the leadership, the Republican and Democratic leadership. Start with the funding. And go to the conference and -- and get one additional vote that it's going to take to establish minimal priorities. I don't even think that gets the job done, but it's a beginning.
Go to the congressional leadership and say, it's a higher priority to make sure we get spectrum allocation to our first- responders than it is to shut down those few times when -- when torture might produce some benefit to the national -- nation's security. Go to Congress, with Republicans and Democrats, and say, here are the priorities. Here are the things we absolutely have got to get -- we have to get done.
ZAHN: How could any member of Congress defend the fact that some of this homeland security money that was supposed to be pegged for kinds of programs we were talking about were spent on air-conditioned sanitation trucks, sanitation seminars, leather jackets for sanitation workers? I don't mean to pick on them specifically.
ZAHN: But there was a lot of homeland security money spent that way.
KERREY: It -- it's what happens when you don't establish priorities.
Look, New York City has been attacked twice. There have been three or four additional attempts that we have intercepted. It's the media capital; it's the financial capital of the world. If there's another attack on the United States -- and I would say when, not if -- it's likely to be here.
And we have to go down -- after shipping $1.24 for every dollar we get back already, we have got to go down there and fight for money with East Puckerbrush (ph), Indiana, and all the other little communities that are fighting for money as well. It's not smart.
It doesn't establish priorities. And it's -- and the consequence -- we saw in Katrina what happens. They couldn't talk to each other. We didn't have the basic systems necessary. And it's easy for the American people, it seems to me, to forget.
ZAHN: Senator Bob Kerrey, thank you for dropping by tonight.
KERREY: Nice to be with you.
ZAHN: Appreciate your input.
Coming up next, the trial of Saddam Hussein turns into an absolute shouting match.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: And that is just part of today's drama -- coming up, some gripping testimony, as the first witness in the case describes torture. We will get the very latest from Baghdad on that next.
And, then, a little bit later on, the story of a convicted killer who only has days to live. So, why are some of Hollywood's biggest celebrities fighting for his life?
And, when you hear your dog panting, he or she may be telling you more than you ever thought possible. Even science proves it. We will explain it to you in a little bit.
ZAHN: In just a few hours, testimony in Saddam Hussein's increasingly bizarre trial will get under way in Baghdad once again.
Today's session included more defiant words from Saddam, angry exchanges among the accused and the judge and the witnesses, and the first testimony from witnesses inside the courtroom, with graphic descriptions of torture under Saddam's regime.
Here's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Tears from the first witness to go face to face with Saddam Hussein. Just a low metal fence separated Ahmed Hassan Mohammed from the former dictator, as he recounted the regime's violence against his family when he was just 15, reprisals for an attempt on the president's life. He described a large grinding machine with blood and hair underneath it. He talked about his own torture and that of his older brother.
AHMED HASSAN MOHAMMED, WITNESS (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): They took my brother. He was 17, a high school student. They beat him with electric cables, in front of my father.
ROBERTSON: He went on to describe how his sister was shot and his brother's legs burned.
Hussein tried to interject. The judge cut him off. The defense then attacked Mohammed's credibility, accusing him of having selective memory and logical inconsistencies. But, only a few hours earlier, former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark led Hussein's defense team out of the court, almost ending the day before it began, protesting their security.
The judge agreed to listen and threw at least one person out of the visitors gallery for threatening the defense team right in the courtroom.
RAMSEY CLARK, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, it was three different people, two at one time. But they weren't sitting right together. And they would -- when -- one particular counsel would look up at him like that.
ROBERTSON: It was a second witness recalling destruction of his family's farm in Dujail that triggered the big sparks to fly. He described how five of his family's orchards were bulldozed.
Hussein cut him off, shouting, at one point, calling the witness an apostate, although you won't see that on the video released from the court, which is being heavily censored, officials say, to protect security.
(on camera): Among the most telling of the emotional outbursts from Saddam Hussein and his half-brother Barzan Hassan al-Tikriti an indication they both know what could be coming -- Barzan Hassan al- Tikriti saying, "Why don't you just execute us?" And Saddam Hussein said: "I'm not afraid. You want my neck, then have it."
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ZAHN: So, the fireworks aside, to give you an idea of just how slowly Saddam's trial is going, this was only the third hearing since the trial began back in October.
Still ahead, police were looking for a bank robber. Then three men looked at this picture and immediately knew who it was. Would you turn in your own father?
And, a little bit later on, an amazing story. It just might help you figure out what your dog is trying to tell you.
But, first, Sophia Choi of Headline News has a look at the hour's other top stories.
SOPHIA CHOI, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Paula.
You know, a split decision tonight for former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay -- a Texas judge has tossed out a conspiracy charge against DeLay, but will let the money-laundering case against him go forward. DeLay is accused of breaking Texas law by funneling corporate donations to Republican candidates.
Israel's defense minister is vowing to do whatever it takes after the latest suicide bombing by Islamic Jihad. Five people died and at least 35 were injured in an explosion outside a shopping mall today in Netanya. The attack puts new pressure now on the Palestinian Authority to disarm militant groups.
Tonight, there's new evidence that a bad marriage, well, is bad for your health. Ohio state researchers inflicted blisters on couples and found that the wounds healed 60 percent more slowly in couples who bickered.
And Mother Nature just won't quit in the Atlantic. Hurricane Epsilon is getting stronger, with winds now up to 80 miles an hour. Fortunately, Epsilon is well out into the ocean and not likely to hit land. Of course, that's terrific news.
Those are the headlines, Paula.
ZAHN: Sophia, thanks so much. See you at the back end of the hour.
Coming up, a string of bank unsolved robberies, and then the awful shock of recognition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything we hoped and believed was shattered in -- in just an instant of a mouse click.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Coming up, the story of three sons who learned the difference between right and wrong and wish their father had, too.
ZAHN: We all remember our parents trying to teach us the difference between right and wrong. Some of those lessons were pretty darn painful.
Well, Keith Oppenheim has found a story about a father who taught his three sons very well. And that's exactly when the real pain started.
As you watch Keith's report, ask yourself, what would you have done?
KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To most everyone in Lewistown, Illinois, population 2,600, it seemed Bill Ginglen was living the good life with his wife after bringing up a daughter and three sons.
(on camera): What kind of dad was he?
GARRETT GINGLEN, SON OF WILLIAM ALFRED GINGLEN: Well, he was a great father most of my life. When I was around him, especially as a younger person, he was -- you know, he raised me right. He -- he raised us all right.
OPPENHEIM: But Garrett, Jared and Clay Ginglen have been facing a difficult truth. In the fire station where two of them are volunteers, Bill Ginglen's sons told me that, while they thought their father was working hard to earn a living, he had secretly become a bank robber.
CLAY GINGLEN, SON OF WILLIAM ALFRED GINGLEN: He hid it well. He did hide it very well.
G. GINGLEN: True.
C. GINGLEN: He didn't -- in Lewistown, he was -- he was not that person.
OPPENHEIM: In Lewistown, Bill Ginglen was known as a former Marine, a well-dressed businessman, an upstanding citizen. Then, a few years ago, he started asking family members for money.
G. GINGLEN: You are obliged to help.
OPPENHEIM (on camera): But that makes you trapped, doesn't it?
G. GINGLEN: It does, very much.
JARED GINGLEN, SON OF WILLIAM ALFRED GINGLEN: We were raised to believe that family comes first above all things. And, so, we wanted to help as much as we could. OPPENHEIM (voice-over): What the brothers didn't know is, as they were giving their father cash, police were looking for an older, well-dressed gentleman who had been walking into small-town banks carrying a gun. The robber hit seven banks in nine months and got away with more than $56,000. In November 2003, the spree began here, in Kenney, Illinois.
(on camera): During the investigation, the problem for police was, the banks either didn't have camera surveillance at all or the systems weren't good enough to get a clear picture of the suspect. But, after being hit once, the managers of this small bank did a smart thing. They upgraded to a digital video system to catch the robber if he were to ever come back. In July of 2004, he did.
ROGER MASSEY, DEWITT COUNTY, ILLINOIS, SHERIFF: We felt, after the -- the second robbery at the Kenney bank, that we had such good video from their surveillance tapes that we could find someone in -- from the public that could identify him. So, we quickly put up a Web site for our department and displayed about eight photographs of the suspected bank robber, as well as his car.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): That someone from the public turned out to be the bank robber's son. Jared Ginglen is a police officer in Peoria, Illinois. He read about the Web site in a local paper.
J. GINGLEN: As soon as I read that, I went home and looked at the Web site. And sure enough, those pictures are -- I had no doubt that it was our father, you know, wearing a mask and hat and sunglasses. But we could tell it was him.
OPPENHEIM: He called his brothers to make sure there was no mistake.
G. GINGLEN: Panic hit me. And I, you know, got physically sick, instantly threw up, started sweating, just -- just a violent panic reaction to what I had seen. It -- it was terrible.
C. GINGLEN: I went instantly cold. I guess, when I told my boss that I was going to have to leave for the day, I -- she says I was pretty pale.
OPPENHEIM: The brothers felt they had to take action immediately.
C. GINGLEN: We went to his house, actually, thinking he would be home, and we were going to confront him about it and turn him in, or have him turn himself in. He, however, was not home. So, that's when we decided that we had to call the authorities and put a stop to whatever he was up to.
OPPENHEIM: The sons would learn their father was up to much more than they ever imagined.
After the arrest, police recovered a detailed account of his double life from Bill Ginglen's computer. He was having an affair, hiring prostitutes, supporting an expensive crack cocaine habit. And he was desperate. He wrote: "The $500 that I spent on smoke during this visit was an incredibly stupid expenditure and evidence that I truly am in over my head. There is also the mortgages, the car rental, the utilities, the phone bill. What the hell am I going to do?"
C. GINGLEN: Very rarely, in -- in a crime, you get to look inside the mind of the person committing it. And with his journal, you could see everything he was thinking.
OPPENHEIM (on camera): Now, he's your father.
C. GINGLEN: Yes. And that made it 10 times worse.
OPPENHEIM (voice-over): William Ginglen pleaded guilty to all charges, robbery and gun possession, and is now awaiting sentencing. He could spend the rest of his life in prison.
His wife divorced him. His son Clay has spoken to him briefly on the phone, nothing substantial. Jared and Garrett don't want to speak to their father.
G. GINGLEN: I'm -- I'm still angry. I -- I just still feel angry. I kind of hope I get over that some day, but -- but, right now, I am just still angry.
OPPENHEIM: For all their anger and hurt, the brothers have no regrets about the toughest decision they ever made.
(on camera): Do you have doubts? Are there moments where you just sort of say, you know, did I do the right thing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
C. GINGLEN: Because we had no choice. I mean, to us, it was obvious.
G. GINGLEN: Right. And it's -- it's right and wrong. Very simple, really.
OPPENHEIM: Is he the one who taught you that?
G. GINGLEN: Yes, he is. He taught us. OPPENHEIM (voice-over): And that's the irony of Bill Ginglen: The man who taught his sons right from wrong would go wrong himself. His children would have to make sure his crimes did not go unpunished.
Keith Oppenheim, CNN, Lewistown, Illinois.
ZAHN: What a very strange twist of fate.
William Ginglen will be sentenced in just over three weeks. That falls on December 29.
Still to come tonight, why some of the biggest stars in Hollywood are rallying around a condemned killer, a man accused of killing four people, even to the point of lobbying Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to spare the man's life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR: We realize that you have a tough job to do and you are very busy, but, in being very busy, you may not get a chance to hear everything with the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: That was Oscar-winning star Jamie Foxx, who played the condemned man, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, in a movie. So, the question tonight is, should Williams live or die?
Stay with us for the debate.
ZAHN: Tonight, time is running out on Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the convicted killer and co-founder of one of the nation's most feared crime gangs, the Crips.
Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection in California, eight days from now. He was convicted back in 1981 of murdering four people during two separate robberies. His only hope right now is that Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will grant him mercy.
Williams' case has drawn a lot of attention all over the world because of his violent past and because many people believe he's turned his life around on death row. Here's Tony Harris.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Williams, who has been on death row for 24 years, receives much notoriety for writing nine anti-gang books for kids, while he has been incarcerated. The books are an attempt, he says, to de-romanticize gangs, crime and prison.
The convicted murderer's work brings him worldwide accolades from the anti-death penalty crowd and celebrities, including rapper Snoop Dogg and Academy Award winner Jamie Foxx, who played Williams in a movie released in 2004.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Stanley Tookie...
JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR: ... it's Tookie.
HARRIS: Williams' supporters are calling on California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to commute the convicted killer's sentence to life in prison without parole.
FOXX: Governor Schwarzenegger, we're not trying to push you into a corner. We realize that you have a tough job to do and you are very busy. But in being very busy, you may not get a chance to hear everything with the case.
HARRIS: Williams has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize five times, and a Nobel prize for literature four times, for the series of children's books he began writing in the mid-1990s.
Little consolation for those against clemency, including family members of the four people Williams murdered, a crime he steadfastly denies he committed. The most outspoken perhaps is the mother of Albert Owens, a convenience store clerk, killed in 1979.
LORA OWENS, MURDER VICTIM's STEPMOTHER: I believe Albert deserves justice, and for that justice, "Tookie" Williams was convicted in a court of law, and he was given the sentence of death. I believe Albert deserves the justice of that sentence being carried out.
HARRIS: Williams' lawyers claim the forensic evidence used to convict him in 1981 was quote, "junk science." But the California Supreme Court didn't buy that argument. Welcome news to Frances Luster, who lost her son, Kofi (ph), to gang violence 15 years ago.
FRANCES LUSTER, JUSTICE FOR MURDER VICTIMS: He started a very, very violent gang. And those gang-related offenses is just wiping out our young folks, and I don't know when it's going to end. And I think we need to make sure that the youth understand they can't continue.
HARRIS: Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection December 13th.
OWENS: I will be standing there in the name of Albert and his father, watching that execution.
HARRIS: His last hope? Governor Schwarzenegger, who says he will consider a request for clemency on Thursday.
ZAHN: And that was Tony Harris reporting for us tonight. And joining me now to debate the execution of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, actor Mike Farrell, you know him from MASH. But he's also been a human rights activist for more than 20 years now. He opposes the execution.
And attorney and political activist Larry Greenfield, who says the execution should go forward as planned.
Good to see both of you. Thank you for joining us.
Mike, I'm going to start with you tonight. We have just heard in Tony Harris' report, this is a man convicted of four cold-blooded murders. Murders that he's never even admitted to committing. Why does he deserve to live?
MIKE FARRELL, ACTOR AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, first of all, it's important to know that he denies having committed the murders, and even an appellate court judge said the conviction was based on circumstantial evidence and snitch testimony. So that's just an important fact to know.
He deserves to live because he's had an extraordinary turnabout in his life, as a result of being in the hole, and death row's solitary confinement for a number of years, in which he was given a Bible and ultimately asked for a dictionary. Taught himself to read and write and began to realize that he had lived a life that was terrible, that was very dangerous and had done a lot of harm to society.
And he wanted to see if he could make up for that. He's done an extraordinary job of reaching out to young people, not only in our community, but across this country and in other parts of the world, teaching them about the dangers of gang life and drugs and guns and violence, and all of the things that...
ZAHN: ... Larry, does he deserve any credit for any of what Mike has just said?
LARRY GREENFIELD, ATTORNEY AND POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Well, it's possible that convicted murderers will do some good over the course of 25 years, but we need a sure and swift justice system, and I want to speak on behalf of the victims that he did murder.
I am concerned at the logic in Mike's case. Either he's a mass murderer and admits it and, therefore, he's rehabilitated and repenting, or he doesn't admit he did it, and therefore he's certainly not qualified to receive clemency.
ZAHN: Mike, what about that?
FARRELL: Or he didn't do the crime and was wrongly convicted by a jury that was -- that, by a case that was moved out of the black area into a white community, where blacks were stricken from the jury. That was, as I said, based on circumstantial evidence and testimony of people that an appellate court judge said, had doubts about their credibility.
ZAHN: So, Larry let's assume for a moment that the jury did come to a just decision here and as you know, "Tookie" Williams wrote an apology letter to children from his jail cell, some eight years ago. When he said, "so today I apologize to you all. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle. I deeply regret that I ever did. I vow to spend the rest of my life working towards solutions." You don't think he's redeemed himself at all?
GREENFIELD: No. In fact, I would speak up again for the victims. It would be nice if somebody came to the justice system and to the families of the victims and said, "I plead on your heart and I plead on mercy from you. I am guilty."
Now, you might be qualified to request clemency. But still to protest innocence is really -- sets him apart. Further, he co-founded the Crips supergang. We're still living with the legacy of evil that "Tookie" initiated. So he's not just a mass murder of the four victims. We're still living with the circumstances of his heinous crimes.
ZAHN: Mike, when you call Governor Schwarzenegger to try to get him to stay this execution, do you take into account the victims' families and what they have said rather poignantly?
FARRELL: Well, I work with victims' families all the time. The organization I chair, Death Penalty Focus, works with murder victims families for reconciliation and murder victims' families for human rights.
All of whom recognize that there is no benefit to them, their loved ones are not returned. Nothing is healed by the death of the perpetrator of a crime.
In this case, who may not have been the perpetrator of the crime. We have 122 people who have been freed from death rows in this country. We have people in question now who have been executed and may well have been innocent.
What we can do in this case is commute this man to life in prison without the possibility of parole, to allow him to continue doing the good work he's doing with young people, and for which young people look up him and appreciate the example he sets. It seems to me that Governor Schwarzenegger needs to understand that by killing this man, what he's doing is telling these young kids there is no reason to hope.
ZAHN: Well, Larry, you get the last word tonight, but I can only give you about 10 seconds.
GREENFIELD: My appeal to Mike Farrell and those who care about human rights would to be stand up for human rights. Mike Farrell and abolitionists, those who would never have the death penalty, would not have it for genocide, crimes against humanity, torture, terrorism or the man who killed four innocent people.
FARRELL: He's quite right.
ZAHN: We've got to leave it there. Thank you for both of your perspectives.
In just a minute, we have the amazing story of a man who is actually raised as a girl because his parents and doctors couldn't tell what sex he was when he was born. How can that be? Stay with us. It's not an isolated case.
And then a little bit later on, a story that can make you listen to your dog in a whole new way. Does your dog really know how to laugh?
ZAHN: Imagine being raised as a girl and never knowing you weren't. And only learning the truth thanks to medical records. That's exactly what happened to Max Beck, the man you are about to meet.
His story, and the stories of others who live in the gray area between the sexes are told in a new documentary called "Middle Sexes: Redefining He and She."
It's narrated by writer Gore Vidal and premieres tomorrow night on our sister network, HBO.
MAX BECK, BORN INTERSEXUAL: When I was born, doctors couldn't determine if I was a boy or a girl. I had what are described as ambiguous genitalia. My parents were confused, scared. They weren't able to tell anyone who they knew had a child, if it was a boy or girl.
GORE VIDAL (voice-over): Max was just a year old when his phallus was surgically reduced. He was brought up as a girl, Judy, who underwent a whole series of operations until the age of 15, never once being told what they were for.
BECK: For 20-odd years, I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about this and didn't tell, just like my mother didn't tell her best friend. I never even told my best friend.
VIDAL: By her late teens, Judy felt confused. She tried a relationship with a boy and a girl.
BECK: Whereas my male partner, boyfriend, had not commented on the differences in my genital anatomy, which, incidentally, I wasn't even aware of at the time. My female partner did.
She said something. She said, boy, Jude, you sure are weird. I came away from that thinking of myself as a monster or a freak. And so I decided that I would avoid that upset by being with men. So I quite literally settled down with the next guy to come along.
VIDAL: Judy simply married a male friend from college. But the relationship was short lived. Judy had met Tamara.
TAMARA: I was really excited. It was definitely a case of love at first sight. Sparks just flew. It was magic.
BECK: I looked at her and fell in love with her. It was love at first sight. She was breathtakingly beautiful.
VIDAL: Then a bombshell hit.
BECK: I needed my childhood immunization records. I contacted my childhood pediatrician and found out he retired and the woman who had taken over his practice had someone photocopy my records and mail them. And I opened my mail in a diner, in Center City, Philadelphia.
Right after my name, which at the time was Judy Elizabeth Beck, were the words pseudohermaphrodite. I was devastated and dumbfounded. At the same time, it was almost a relief because I had a label.
Not only did I know that I was a monster, but I could point in the textbook exactly what kind of monster I was.
VIDAL: The couple lived an open lesbian relationship, but Judy's knowledge of her own medical history was gnawing at her.
BECK: I began to question how valid the lesbian identity was, if I'm not female, can I be a lesbian? And thinking in those vicious circles and undermining this precious shred of identity that I had finally obtained threw me into a very bad depression. I was hospitalized.
VIDAL: What emerged from this turmoil was a man. Judy became Max. The full transition took four years, and incredibly, the loving bond with Tamara survived.
They live as man and wife with a child conceived by Tamara.
BECK: I don't have a male identity. And I don't know that I ever had a female identity, but I certainly don't have one now. If pressed, I suppose I would say I have intersexed identity.
TAMARA: We have been together more than 10 years now. And we're still together. This is the same person that I fell in love with. Over the next 50 years, his hair is going to fall out and he's going to get wrinkles and he's still going to be my Max.
ZAHN: "Middle Sexes: Redefining He and She" premieres on our sister network HBO tomorrow night at 9:30 p.m. eastern. Joining me now, senior medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Fascinating story for all of us to watch. The question tonight is how common is intersexuality.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's not that common, as you might guess. Intersexuality, strictly defined, is when the male and the female sexual organs are not so strictly defined. It's hard to tell.
Sometimes you can have external female organs and male organs on the inside. But the numbers actually about one in 2000 babies actually classified as being intersexual. So, you know, not that common. What happens, strictly speaking, is during the embryology, when the fetus is actually developing around the seventh week of development that the hormones start to release that actually create the specific organs, either male or female organs.
Sometimes the hormones aren't released in adequate amounts, sometimes there not released at all; therefore you develop the situation that Max called ambiguous genitalia. You just can't tell when the baby is born, Paula?
ZAHN: We can see the painful decision his parents had to make, obviously keeping the truth from him for many, many decades. Are there any studies that would indicate what is the right way for a parent to confront this issue with a child.
GUPTA: It's so interesting, Paula, because most -- if you look back at the records for most people, early surgery has been the sort of modus operandi. What most people have done is to do early surgery, mainly because it's just such a difficult thing to deal with.
But they actually have done some studies on this. The American Academy of Pediatrics actually released some guidelines in 2000 for this rare conditions saying perhaps waiting is better.
And some advocates say you should wait until the person who has the intersexual identity can actually decide for themselves which sex they would prefer. Sometimes that just might be too long especially given that the operations that need to take place after that.
But the guidelines and the recommendations are changing, even as we speak, Paula.
ZAHN: I guess, the most amazing things to absorb is how Max has fit into so many different worlds and has seemed to have ended up in one that's a very happy place for him. How is the adjustment for most intersexuals?
GUPTA: Well, you know, first thing is that, you know, you've obviously gotten a small glimpse of Max's life there, still very atypical, obviously.
Statistically speaking, most people who have intersexual identities do end up as females. So in that sense, Max is a little bit unusual in that he ultimately ended up as a male.
But it's the operations that people with intersexual identities talk about the most. I mean these are incredibly profound operations, not only physically, but emotionally as well.
So really, you know, as it stands now, there's really just nothing normal at all in so many ways about their lives ultimately, Paula.
ZAHN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you for helping us out tonight.
GUPTA: Thank you. Sure. ZAHN: On to some business news now.
Oil prices and the stock market going in opposite directions once again.
Sophia Choi has details in tonight's "Headline News Business Break"--Sophia.
CHOI: Thanks, Paula.
Well, stocks were off a bit as oil prices rose again. The Dow industrials fell 42 points. The Nasdaq dropped 16.
President Bush hit the road today with optimistic words about the economy, but a warning to businesses to live up to their pension promises.
At a Deer Hitachi plant in North Carolina, the president also called on Congress to simplify pension rules.
China is buying $10 billion worth of jets from Europe's Airbus. The deal for 150 jetliners up stages Boeing's coup last month. A $4 billion deal announced during the president's visit to Beijing.
The international group that hands out domain names dot coms, dot orgs and such is delaying a decision on creating a dot XXX for adult sites. Now backers say it would make easier to avoid sex on the web. But some conservative groups say it will just lead to more porn.
And they're not especially creative, but gift cards are expected to amount to 18 percent, nearly one-fifth of the money Americans spend on gifts this holiday season. That's the estimate from the International Counsel of Shopping Centers, which says it's a 4-point increase from last year.
Those are the headlines--Paula.
ZAHN: Sophia, thanks so much.
Coming up, the question of the day. Can you tell if your dog is laughing at you?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think your dog laughs?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My dog totally laughs. It's like pant, pant, pant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: But come on here. It's serious science. If anyone can get a chuckle out of a dog, it's Jeanne Moos. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ZAHN: So the obvious way to know if a dog is happy is to make sure its tail is wagging. Of course, some of us dog owners swear we can also tell when our dogs are smiling.
Take a look at this picture of my dog, Nigel. My friend who took this picture said he wasn't smiling for this. Maybe he didn't like the summer sun. I thought he looked pretty happy in that picture actually.
Well, at any rate, science has discovered dogs can actually laugh.
And who better to get all of us chuckling than Jeanne Moos.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): If you think dogs don't laugh, maybe you are just not in on the joke.
(on-camera): Foster, did you hear the one about the two dogs-- did you hear the one about the two dogs that are passing the parking meter? Don't you want to hear the joke, Goldie?
(voice over): Dogs may not appreciate jokes, but they probably do laugh. We hear it as panting, exhaling. But the exhalation seen here on the top line of this spectrograph show a broader range of frequency than the plain old panting you see underneath.
Here's a dog yukking it up. This is how animal behaviorists interpret dog laughter.
PATRICIA SIMONET, ANIMAL BEHAVIOR RESEARCHER: The sound, that means friendly greetings and, you know, I come in peace.
MOOS: Patricia Simonet's findings were first published in the journal, "Science News" a few years back. What's new is that now they are testing dog laughter on dogs.
They've been playing dog laughter over loud speakers here at the Spokane County Regional Animal Protection Service, a shelter, and when they play it, yapping dogs get quiet, really quiet.
NANCY HILL, ANIMAL SHELTER DIRECTOR: I was very surprised at the results. It was like, am I in the right place? Is this the wrong kennel? It was so quiet. It was almost night and day difference.
MOOS: The researchers, themselves, even managed to calm down dogs by imitating the special panting.
For some dog owners, this only confirms what they already knew.
(on-camera): Do you think your dog laughs?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My dog totally laughs. It's like pant, pant, pant.
MOOS: Does he pant a lot? Does he make any...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was as much of a laugh as you're going to get.
MOOS (voice over): But dogs wouldn't be laughing over another piece of unrelated news.
The New York City Health Department warns second hand smoke is giving pets cancer. See Spot develop a spot on his lungs. Pets living with smokers don't just inhale the smoke. It gets trapped on their fir and ingested when they lick themselves.
What's next? Warnings on cigarette packs? Your smoking may be dangerous to Fido's health?
If dogs do laugh, how do we get a chuckle out of them?
(on-camera): Maybe if we tickle we could get a laugh. Did you hear about the one about the two dogs going past the parking meters and the one dog says to the other dog, hey, look, pay toilets.
(voice over): Now every time they pant we're going to have to worry they are laughing at us.
(on-camera): That's pathetic. I'm having to pay dogs to laugh at my jokes.
(voice over): Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
ZAHN: And one more thing Jeanne says those researchers have been getting a lot of calls from zoos all over the country wondering how to use animal sounds to relax their animals, too.
That wraps it up for all of us tonight. I've got to go home and try some Jeanne Moos jokes on my dear Nigel.
Thank you all for joining us tonight.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts about four seconds from now. His guest tonight, Mike Geragos, for the whole hour.
That would be Mark Geragos.
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