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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Secret Witness Testifies to Sex Torture in Saddam Hussein Trial; French Face Transplant Surgery Comes Under Fire
Aired December 6, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
A secret witness, her chilling testimony pointing the finger at Saddam Hussein.
ANNOUNCER: A shocking sight in a Baghdad courtroom. A woman recounts the sex torture she allegedly received at the hands of Saddam's regime. Saddam lashes back, but some say he is losing his grip.
He made history -- the man who performed the world's first face transplant surgery speaking out for the first time. Plus, new details about the patient -- is she the right person to receive the treatment?
ANNOUNCER: From across the U.S. and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
Live from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: And good evening again, everyone.
Saddam Hussein throws a fit in court. We are going to get to that story in a moment.
But, first, here's what's happening right now. A Marine pilot is safe tonight, rescued off the coast of Florida. His Harrier jet went down about 20 miles east of Saint Augustine. The pilot ejected. He was about four hours later. The plane was on a routine training mission.
Valerie Plame is leaving the CIA. A source tells the Associated Press that the woman at the center of the White House leak investigation is going to retire on Friday -- no word on what she will do now.
In Tampa, Florida, a former computer engineering professor has been acquitted of charges that he supported terrorists in the Middle East. A jury found Sami al-Arian not guilty of eight counts against him. The jury deadlocked on nine other counts.
And, in Iraq, suicide bombers kill at least 36 people at a Baghdad police academy. More than 70 others were injured. Two groups claim responsibility, al Qaeda and the Islamic Army in Iraq. The U.S. is warning of increased insurgency attacks in the days leading up to the parliamentary elections. Those happen on December 15.
In just a few hours, the trial of Saddam Hussein starts again in Baghdad. The question is, will the former dictator show up? Today, in court, he exploded with rage, telling the judge to go to hell and threatening not to come back. It was his angriest outburst yet. When he wasn't talking, Hussein had to listen. And the testimony he listened to was chilling. A woman spoke of terror and torture.
Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson was inside the court.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Hidden from view and her voice disguised, the first female witness to testify against Saddam Hussein fought back tears, as she recalled her suffering.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): He said, take off your clothes. He hit me with a pistol and forced me. I was forced to take my clothes. And he lifted my legs upward and he hit me with the cables.
ROBERTSON: She told the court how her family had been taken from their home in Dujail to the local Baath Party headquarters, driven to an interrogation center in Baghdad, and then to Abu Ghraib prison, where men were beaten as they were forced to run naked in front of women and children.
The judge frequently admonished her to stick to recounting only her own experience. Captivity was so bad, she said, they had stitched underwear and socks from blankets and had improvised shoes from newspapers. She says she was held for four years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): You see me now. I didn't go to school from 16 to 20 years. I didn't enjoy my life at that age. My youth, my middle age was destroyed.
ROBERTSON: On this, the second day of witness testimony, the judge seemed to allow the defendants many more opportunities to speak out and cross-examine witnesses.
At one point, Saddam Hussein's half-brother, Barzan Hassan al- Tikriti, even seemed to implicate himself.
"Did you see me in Dujail, when the families were being rounded up?" he asked. "Yes," said the witness.
Tikriti quickly countered. "Didn't I go to the 60 men in Dujail, give them kisses, shake their hands and send them home free?" Tikriti didn't give the witness a chance to answer that question.
The judge also gave Saddam Hussein plenty of time to talk. SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT (through translator): Americans and Zionists want to execute Saddam Hussein. So what? Saddam Hussein gave himself to the people when he was a high school student. I was sentenced to execution three times. This is not the first time.
ROBERTSON: In the courtroom, a growing sense that, behind the bluster, the former president was beginning to lose his way.
(on camera): As the judge was about to adjourn the court until Wednesday, Saddam Hussein jumped up, saying: "I have been in the same shirt and underwear for the last three days. I don't want the trial to go ahead," to which the judge replied: "There are only two more witnesses left in this phase. The court will proceed Wednesday," to which Saddam Hussein said: "I refuse to appear in a court where there's no justice. Go to hell, all you agents of America."
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
COOPER: Well, the trial and the bombings and the upcoming elections are all part of a story that's changing almost by the minute. It's also a story that may stretch years beyond what Americans have the patience to bear.
With that in mind, the president and the Democrats have been scrambling to come up with an exit strategy, and slamming the other side for not having one. Tomorrow, the president lays out phase two of his plan, and Democrats try to agree on theirs.
Today, though, it was more about politics and point-scoring than anything else.
CNN's Dana Bash takes a look.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the Oval Office, a pointed rebuttal to the latest Democrat to call the Iraq mission doomed to failure.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, there's pessimists, you know, and politicians who try to score points. But our strategy is one that is -- will lead to us victory. BASH: At issue, Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean's accusation the White House is repeating mistakes from Vietnam.
HOWARD DEAN, DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIRMAN: The idea that we're going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong.
BASH: The president was quick to respond to that because it was a direct challenge to the new Bush playbook, Americans want to hear they can and will win.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: We cannot afford to lose.
BASH: And Mr. Bush got an assist from across the aisle, a Democrat who called on his party to ease up on the attacks and acknowledge reality.
LIEBERMAN: He will be the commander in chief for three more critical years and that, in matters of war, we undermine presidential credibility at our nation's peril.
BASH: That played right into a another part of the White House political strategy on Iraq, talk up the differences within the Democratic Party, in the hopes of making their criticism look confused and less salient.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My Democratic opponent was a fine U.S. senator named Joe Lieberman.
BASH: At Fort Drum in New York, the vice president saluted Lieberman's position that U.S. troops should stay in Iraq and took aim at Democrats who say bring them home now.
CHENEY: To leave that country before the job is done would be to hand Iraq over to car bombers and assassins.
BASH: Still, developments in Iraq underscored both the policy and political challenges facing the White House.
An Islamic militant group claims it is holding an American hostage in Iraq, a response, the organization says, to the president's -- quote -- "alleged strategy for victory."
BUSH: We, of course, don't pay ransom for any hostages. What we will do, of course, is use our intelligence gathering to see if we can't help locate them.
BASH: Also, two suicide bombers not only reminded Americans how violent Iraq is, but killed at least three dozen new Iraqi police officers so critical to the president's exit strategy.
COOPER: Dana, does the White House feel pretty much that they -- all the Republicans are -- are on the same page behind the president's -- what he calls the strategy for victory?
BASH: Well, you know, Republicans haven't necessarily been on the same page.
And that's what is interesting about them sort of delighting here about Democrats finding it hard to get a message. Republicans like John McCain say there should actually be more troops in Iraq. Chuck Hagel, a Vietnam veteran and a senator from Nebraska, Republican, has said also that there are echoes of Vietnam. That has not the made the White House very happy.
But there is one thing that they are pretty much all on the same page on, and that is, the exit strategy, if you will, and when U.S. troops should come home. Almost no Republican, in fact, none that we can think of, has actually said that troops should come home within a specific timetable.
And in talking to several Republican pollsters, Anderson, over the past couple of days about what they are looking at in terms of their candidates, their clients in 2006, that is the one thing across the board they say that they're sort of breathing a sigh of relief about, that the American public certainly is souring on Iraq, but they still don't want to necessarily bring troops home before it is a good time to do that. And that is something that Republican candidates are breathing a sigh of relief over, if you will.
COOPER: All right, Dana Bash, thanks.
Whether or not Democrats are in fact less united than Republicans, Republicans have the political advantage, of course, of a single spokesman, the president. Democrats have a chorus. Tomorrow, they're going to be trying to get on the same page.
CNN's Ed Henry is following that side of the story. He joins us now from Washington -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Anderson.
That's right. In fact, all the House Democrats are going to go behind closed doors early tomorrow morning, before the president's latest speech on Iraq, try to hash this out, try to find some sort of a united message moving forward.
That's because they are all kind of all over the map. The Democrats have spent the last few weeks on the offense. They have been beating up on the president. They have been scoring points. We have seen the president's poll numbers drop. But now Republicans are naturally turning to Democrats and saying, OK, what now?
And that's where Democrats are all over the map on what to do next. You have -- on the left, you have the House Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi, joining with Jack Murtha in saying there should be a quick pullout. Today, her number two, Steny Hoyer, the congressman from Maryland, said that's a really bad idea.
So, you have, you know, basically the top two Democratic leaders in the House at odds. Then you have, from the left, Howard Dean, as Dana noted, the Democratic national chairman, saying he doesn't think we can win in Iraq. Then, from the right, as Dana also noted, you have got Joe Lieberman from the more centrist part of the Democratic Party, saying we can win if we just stick with the president.
And that's exactly not what the Democratic base wants to hear right now. And, so, the bottom line after all of this is, we know the president's in trouble; we know his poll numbers are low. He's especially vulnerable on Iraq. But the question that's been hanging out there for months, can the Democrats capitalize on it, it's still hanging out there at this very moment -- Anderson. COOPER: Well, that's the thing. I mean, for Democrats who are against withdrawing the troops, as many of them are, how much longer can they argue that position without really coming up with a concrete plan of their own on how the war should be won?
HENRY: The time is running out.
I mean, clearly, the Democrats think time is running out for the president to come up with a new plan. But, as you heard from Dana, they want a plan from the Democrats. So, it is back and forth. And the bottom line is, there's really no coming together.
Another thing we heard from Joe Lieberman today is, he wants to stop the finger-pointing. And he wants the president -- he not only went after his Democratic colleagues, went after the president a little bit, and said it is time to sort of appoint an informal war cabinet made up of Democratic and Republican congressional leaders to sit down with the president, like in previous administrations, including the president's father's administration, when there have been wars, and to really sit down and hash some sort of a bipartisan strategy.
But there really seems little chance of that actually happening. Both sides just want to point fingers. And you don't see very many lawmakers sitting down at the table with the president, or the president even inviting them to actually hash out a bipartisan plan -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Ed Henry, we will be watching. Appreciate it. Thanks.
Every night, we are "Keeping Them Honest," of course. And, once again, tonight, we are looking at the Gulf. How would you feel if your tax dollars were being used to build a new museum dedicated to the Army Corps of Engineers, the same guys who -- who built the levees that didn't work in the first place? Well, your money is being spent on that. We will show you how.
And tonight, a desperate situation laid out in a call for help to 911. The problem was, the dispatcher was not impressed. And we will show you what happened because of that.
Across America and around the world, this is 360.
COOPER: Well, there were investigative hearings in Washington today into the government's response, or lack of it, to the calamity that followed Hurricane Katrina. And some of the testimony was hard to bear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICIA THOMPSON, NEW ORLEANS EVACUEE: This is how we made it: we slept next to dead bodies, we slept on streets, at least four times, next to human feces and urine. There was garbage everywhere in this city -- in the city. Panic and fear had taken over.
The way we were treated by police was demoralizing and inhuman. We were cursed when we asked for help for our elderly. We had guns aimed at us by the police who were supposed to be there to protect and serve. They made everybody sit on the ground with their hands in the air, even babies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, every night, we devote time to the ongoing disaster in the Gulf. And it is an ongoing disaster. We have not forgotten the hundreds of thousands of people who are still without homes right now, tonight, maybe even watching this, people still without hope. We call these segments "Keeping Them Honest." And that's what we are trying to do.
Tonight, your tax dollars funding a museum for the Army Corps of Engineers. It's money that could have been spent on the levees.
CNN's Joe Johns reports.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like so many long-standing relationships, this one is love/hate, Deep South and the Army Corps of Engineers.
For decades, the Corps helped tamed the meandering Mississippi, build roads, control floods. What is not to love? But, of course, the Corps also built those infamous levees around New Orleans. We will get back to the levees, but, in "Keeping Them Honest," let's first check in with Charles and Johnnie Burton on Catfish Road over near Vicksburg, Mississippi.
CHARLES BURTON, GULF COAST RESIDENT: Every two years, we have to move for 30 or 40 days, because the water gets up, oh, to I would say at least 10 foot out here. It will be 10 foot around there. That shed over yonder, it will be sticking up, the rest of it, you couldn't find.
JOHNS: They have levees here, too, but these guys say everyone here knows, if you live on the wrong side of the railroad tracks, you don't have the kind of levee protection that actually stops all the flooding.
JOHNNIE BURTON, GULF COAST RESIDENT: To my understanding, that the government was going to build levees around Chickasaw, but they never got eligible to do it yet, I guess, lower funds.
C. BURTON: The money funds.
J. BURTON: Yes, the money funds.
JOHNS: But there is money for something else. In nearby Vicksburg, Congress authorized $13 million to build a gleaming new Lower Mississippi River Museum. Its purpose? To highlight the achievements of the Army Corps of Engineers and the money's coming from, you guessed it, the pot of money Congress earmarked for flood control levees.
And that's what makes some people think about at least one of those achievements. It is the Army Corps of Engineers that miscalculated the strength of those levees in New Orleans that, with Katrina, contributed to the costliest engineering failure in U.S. history. It makes you wonder, should the Corps be honored and should taxpayers fork over $13 million from the levee funds to do it?
Steve Ellis, a former Coast Guard officer and expert on Army Corps of Engineers issues, is now at Taxpayers For Common Sense in Washington.
(on camera): Question, what should they be doing with the money?
STEVE ELLIS, TAXPAYERS FOR COMMON SENSE: They should be building -- building levees and other flood protection projects for the citizenry, not, you know, essentially gilding their legacy in a museum.
JOHNS (voice-over): But who's behind money for the museum? This man, Thad Cochran -- he's a senator from -- you guessed it -- Mississippi. He's also chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee. His office defends the project and says it's been in the pipeline for more than a decade, well before Katrina threw a spotlight on levee failures.
Museum project manager Tommy Hengst from the Army Corps of Engineers says the Corps is just following orders.
(on camera): Are you going to find yourself defending against critics in Washington who suggest the Army Corps kind of screwed up in New Orleans and now they're building a museum?
TOMMY HENGST, ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS MUSEUM PROJECT MANAGER: We're public servants. We do what Congress tells us to do.
JOHNS (voice-over): The question, whether it's sucking money from new projects that ought to be started, for example, better levees for the Burton brothers and their neighbors.
SIDNEY BEAUMAN, VICKSBURG ALDERMAN: This area is something that's going to be here for the United States of America. It's not going to be here just for the people of Vicksburg, Mississippi. That's what our plan is.
JOHNS: As for the critics, they say, well, it's a high watermark of government waste. Taxpayers get stuck with a $13 million bill to honor a government agency that's responsible for these levees.
Joe Johns, CNN, Vicksburg, Mississippi.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Wow. We will be watching how that money is spent.
Let's get a quick update of the latest stories of Sophia Choi of Headline News.
SOPHIA CHOI, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Anderson.
A bizarre crime in Memphis, Tennessee, to tell you about. Police say a woman mistook a block of cheese for a brick of cocaine and then tried to hire a hit man to kill four men and steal it. Here's the catch. The hit man was actually an undercover cop.
In the Northern Atlantic, a new discovery that suggests the sinking of the Titanic wasn't depicted correctly in the hit 1997 movie. Researchers say two recently found large pieces of the ship's hull indicated the luxury liner sank in three parts and went down much faster than the 20 minutes previously thought. About 1,500 people were killed in April 1912, when the Titanic sank on its maiden voyage after hitting an iceberg.
Elkhart County, Indiana, a dramatic rescue -- firefighters pull a dog out of the Saint Joseph River after it fell through the ice. They also rescued a man who fell out of his canoe while trying to save the dog.
And on the Indonesian island of Borneo, a mysterious beast found roaming deep in the rain forest -- the strange animal, which looks like a cross between a fox and a cat, was photographed by World Wildlife Fund researchers in 2003. The pictures are now being published in a book. And the researchers hope to trap this animal, because they say it is the first time in more than a century that a new carnivore has been discovered on the island.
And, Anderson, I just read online that they think this critter kind of hangs out in trees because it's got such a long tail, kind of like a lemur.
COOPER: I don't believe it.
COOPER: I just don't believe it. It looks like one of those -- those old shows on, like, the yeti and -- and the Sasquatch?
CHOI: Yes. Well...
COOPER: I don't believe it.
CHOI: We will see.
COOPER: Look at that. Come on.
CHOI: If they trap it...
CHOI: ... they will prove -- prove you wrong.
COOPER: All right, maybe so. I will be -- I will publicly be proved wrong.
COOPER: It wouldn't be the first time, I suppose.
Sophia, thanks very much.
You know, you have heard a lot already about bird flu. In a moment, we are going to take you around the world to the front lines in the fight -- Dr. Sanjay Gupta inside an outbreak, tracking a killer in Jakarta, Indonesia, a life-and-death race against the clock.
And new information about the woman who got the first ever transplant -- tonight, the doctors who performed the surgery defend their position -- new questions being raised about whether this patient really was a good candidate for the surgery. We will tell you why.
From America and around the world, this is 360.
COOPER: She got a face transplant. But what really happened to her before a dog bit off her face? -- new questions about the surgery the world has been watching next on 360.
COOPER: When you hear about the bird flu, it is hard to know exactly how much of the talk is just hype. Right now, the number of cases in humans is tiny, 134 in the last two years, 69 deaths in all, all of them in Asia.
What worries doctors is if the virus mutates, so it starts spreading easily from person to person. Results could be horrific. Now, the -- the only way to prevent a worldwide outbreak would be to detect and contain the very first cases. But how? And is that even possible?
Tonight, we're giving you an unprecedented look at a recent outbreak as it unfolded in the suburbs of Jakarta, Indonesia. Our senior medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, was on the front lines.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A 19-year-old woman dead of a sudden respiratory illness. When the test comes back, it's positive for bird flu.
The next morning, an investigation team sets out for the village. It's a two-hour drive through winding, narrow streets. We have to stop and ask for directions a half-a-dozen times. By the time the health team arrives, the family is frightened. The victim left behind a young husband and a 10-month-old daughter. Now the child is feeling sick, too. And so is a 5-month-old niece and the victim's 8-year-old brother.
DR. ERLANG SAMOEDRO, INDONESIAN MINISTRY OF HEALTH: Two children who have the symptoms, a fever and cough and runny nose.
GUPTA: Bird flu? No one is sure. The team takes blood samples from anyone who was in contact with the dead woman during her illness, more than 20 people. They come by the house one by one.
And a team from the animal health department takes samples from songbirds and, of course, the chickens. It's not a pleasant experience for anyone. Test results for people take three days. But, for birds, a rapid test can generate results in 20 minutes. The animal health inspectors wait an hour to be sure. The verdict? These birds are healthy.
IRA LONGINI, CONSULTANT, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: It's a disaster waiting to happen.
GUPTA: A consultant to the World Health Organization, Dr. Ira Longini, built a computer simulation showing how quickly a killer flu might spread, starting with a single patient in Southeast Asia.
LONGINI: The outbreak starts here.
GUPTA: The yellow dots are new cases. The blue dots are people who are already recovered or dead. You can see how quickly the screen fills up as new patients are infected. In less than a month, it's out of control and on its way to the United States.
(on camera): They say the chance of a pandemic sits at about 100 percent.
GUPTA: It's going to happen.
LONGINI: It's absolutely going to happen.
GUPTA (voice-over): But here, on the left, we see Longini's alternate version, where health officials quarantine the first victims and treat them with Tamiflu, and what a difference. Only a few hundred people get sick. The outbreak is contained.
But how would it work in real life? In Jakarta, we found out firsthand. The dead woman's aunt tells the team that, in another village, where the victim's mother and father live, chickens and ducks have been dying, a handful at a time, for the past month.
We all go to take a look, but the birds have been burned. There's nothing left to test. The investigation is at a dead end. While the source of the virus can't be proven, the investigation is a success. Potential victims have been found and treated. The rest of the village is safe -- for now.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.
COOPER: Well, the operation was revolutionary, a partial face transplant. The patient is recovering. But new doctors who gave the woman a new face are on the defensive, new questions raised about the patient. What caused her injury? And is she really ready for her new face?
And will "Narnia" turn out to be marketing heaven for Disney? Selling "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" -- will true believers make it a box office smash?
COOPER: A week or so ago, a woman, Isabelle Dinoire of France woke up with a new nose, new lips and a new chin. So far, at least, the operation that accomplished the feat seems to have been a success but new questions are being raised now about the doctors who performed the surgery and the patient herself. What really happened to her that caused her horrible injuries? And was she the right patient for such a radical operation? Tonight, her doctors are speaking out. CNN's Paula Hancocks has the story.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's back to the day job for one of the doctors who made medical history just over a week ago. He helped perform the world's first partial face transplant. Today, Professor Bernard Devauchelle is working on more conventional and less controversial reconstructive surgery. Rebuilding the jaw of a French American doctor who was recently treated for cancer of the mouth.
This is also the same operation room where Isabel Dinoire's underwent 15 hours of surgery. Where a team of 50 doctors and nurses worked to give this woman a new life and secure that world first. Devauchelle is delighted with the speed of Dinoire's recovery immediately after the transplant.
BERNARD DEVAUCHELLE, TRANSPLANT DOCTOR (through translator): Imagine, that on Monday morning she sent a text message to the daughters. So twelve hours after the operation she was able to text her daughters and in the afternoon, that's 24 hours after the operation. She saw herself in the mirror.
HANCOCKS: Dr. Sylvie Testelin was with her when she saw herself for the very first time. She said they both cried when Dinoire realized she had both her face and her ability to speak back.
SILVIE TESTELIN, TRANSPLANT DOCTOR: With her voice and her face, oh, it's something very strange for her.
HANCOCKS: Was it an emotional time?
TESTELIN: Oh, yeah, yeah, very, very, very.
HANCOCKS: But closely following emotion and some praise came heavy criticism. A question of ethics. Should such complicated surgery with a high risk of failure be allowed for a non-life saving operation?
DEVAUCHELLE: You can, of course, live without a face. But is it a real life? There's so-called quality of life is in fact closer to death. The question is, do we have a right to refuse this sort of treatment?
HANCOCKS: Jorday (ph), who acted as middleman for the donor's family and Dinoire said that Dinoire, the recipient, had attempted suicide last May. And it was during Dinoire's suicide attempt that she was disfigured. She had taken sedatives and become disorientated, cutting her face as she fell. Her dog then attacked her while she was unconscious. Before the transplant, much of the nose, lips and chin were missing.
Do you think Isabelle was in the right frame of mind to understand exactly what was going to happen to her?
DEVAUCHELLE: I think that there's partial face transplant gives hope. A lot of hope to her life. It's almost a new life for her.
HANCOCKS: Going about his daily rounds, Devauchelle knows the patient still isn't in the clear. Dinoire's body could reject the donor tissue years from now and they could be back to square one. But for the doctors and for Dinoire, it is a risk worth taking. Paula Hancocks, CNN, Amiens, France.
COOPER: Well, a risk worth taking, clearly not the consensus among some doctors and medical ethicists. From both the surgical and psychological point of view, last week's facial transplant procedure is raising concerns. Joining me from Minneapolis, Dr. Bruce Cunningham, a plastic surgeon and president of the American Society of Plastic Surgeons and from Philadelphia, Art Caplan with the University of Pennsylvania Center for Bioethics. Gentlemen, thank you for being on again. Doctor Cunningham, the ethical adviser who approved this transplant surgery on this woman tells CNN that this woman did attempt suicide prior to her injury. Medically speaking, if that's true, is she the right candidate for the surgery?
DR. BRUCE CUNNINGHAM, AMERICAN SOCIETY OF PLASTIC SURGEONS: Well, we certainly can't disqualify every depressed patient from extreme measures of care. I know in my own practice, I have had to reconstruct faces of trying to kill themselves with a shotgun and if they had problems before, they have all those problems now and they have got even bigger problems and they deserve our best chance for help.
COOPER: Interesting. Art. If she tried the take her life, was it ethical for doctors to perform the operation?
ART CAPLAN, U. PENN CENTER FOR BIOETHICS: Well, I tell you what my problem is. It's not that you want to punish somebody because they tried to end their own life. You certainly are going to give them medical treatment but this is a pioneering medical experiment. This is a situation where you're going to have to really rely on that patient to follow orders, comply, take their drugs, monitor the themselves carefully. I wonder whether this was the right patient to select as the first subject for such a highly emotionally charged operation. Should have been picked fifth, she could have been picked seventh, she could have been picked eighth, I don't know the suicide attempt is the right place to go for the first patient.
COOPER: Dr. Cunningham, I see you nodding your head.
CUNNINGHAM: Well, you know, I think it is easy to debate the issue. She was the first. And I think the real question is was she in a frame of mind where she could understand what was going on? And I certainly know for the patients that I have had to reconstruct, who have got the same kind of problems and a devastating injury, a lot of times this helps them focus. And it turns their life around. Some of these people have become spokesmen for anti-depressed groups. Self patient -- self help groups. This sort of thing, you can't predict it. That's the miracle of life. That's what makes it so exciting. This could turn her life around. We just don't know.
CAPLAN: Anderson, let me jump in there just to say that this French team also did early on a hand transplant and the first person they picked was a guy who had a long history of criminal behavior. He didn't take his drugs and didn't follow his regimen and ultimately his hand had to be removed. What I'm saying -- I'm not completely disagreeing with Bruce but I want to emphasize, when you're the first medical pioneer for a very controversial and emotionally laden procedure, you just have to be careful about what goes first and I'm not sure the team showed that kind of care and caution.
COOPER: Well, Art, the face donor committed suicide apparently and knowing that organ recipients often think about the donor, does that have some sort of an effect on the woman who receives the face?
CAPLAN: Well, we have done some studies recipients of other kinds of transplants and think a bit about the emotional impact of an organ that comes from someone that, say, died in a suicide or a murder. And I think the face is, again, emotionally charged. And so there may be more of that. What bothers me more though, Anderson, is not so much the psychosocial issues for the recipient. I think those can be handled. If you take a donor and they have committed suicide, and you don't have an expressed consent from that donor, you just go to the family. Out of the blue. And say, you know, we'll do the world's first face transplant. Do you consent to that? That's a pretty tough consent situation to be in.
Again, I'm not sure that's the place to head for the first face transplant donor. So I have got issues on both ends.
COOPER: Dr. Cunningham, the patients you work with, what is life like for them? You know, with severe facial injuries. Someone that tries to shoot themselves in the face with a shotgun, I mean, how difficult is daily life for them, and, you know, how are they treated by other people?
CUNNINGHAM: You know, it is a horrible challenge and they become recluses. They know they can't go out in public without getting stares. Without getting a lot of attention. Think of the things we just take for granted. Being able to speak, for instance. Being able to drink water out of a cup without the lips, without the teeth, without the structures, you just plain can't do that. And it sounds like this is the problem that this woman, this situation she was in.
You know, I think Art is right. You know, this team chose an incorrect patient last time in terms of the patient's ability to follow through and the thing that I found that's so interesting in that is that, you know, we think this is the first one done and the patient owes something to history. But they don't. They're just trying to solve their own problems and live their own lives. And that's where they go. And these people offered her a chance.
COOPER: That is a fascinating point. Dr. Bruce Cunningham, good to talk to you. And Art Caplan as well, thank you.
Just how desperate does your call have to sound? The awful story of a woman found murdered two days after a 911 dispatcher put the phone down unconvinced that her life might be in danger. You'll hear the tapes for yourself.
Also tonight, can a very well loved and pious series of children's books become a blockbuster for Disney? Look at the campaign to sell "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." You're watching 360.
COOPER: Want to focus still on that first ever face transplant last week. What led to it? Was a dog, a Labrador retriever, biting and mauling its owner while unconscious? That was the story we were initially told. She says to wake her up. That's what the dog was trying to do. That's what the patient has said. Of course, we'll never know what the dog was thinking though if anyone can make a guess, it is Matthew Margolis, an expert in dog behavior. He joins us from Sacramento with the German shepherd, Edil (ph). Matthew, thank you for being with us.
MATTHEW MARGOLIS, ANIMAL BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Thank you for having me, Anderson.
COOPER: I have got to tell you, when I read this report, this woman says that a Labrador bit her face off while she was asleep. I found that hard to believe. The woman now told the "London Sunday Times" she thinks the dog trying to revive her. Because she had taken a sleeping pill overdose. Is any of this possible?
MARGOLIS: No. That's crazy. I mean, if a dog revives you, it licks you, it nuzzles you, it lays there. Doesn't attack you and maul you. I think it is this, my dog couldn't possibly do this and that is obviously not true.
COOPER: So, a Labrador is capable of doing such a thing?
MARGOLIS: Of course they are. It is not a breed, Anderson. It is always about the breeding, the lack of training, the way the owner treats the dog. I got a call, a Labrador just bit a child, he is two- years-old child. And I asked them, have you ever trained the dog? And they said no. So it's never about a breed, ever.
COOPER: So I mean, everyone thinks pit bulls attack. But Labradors, the most popular dog in the United States and it is in so many homes there. They're capable of attacking a child an adult. What causes that?
MARGOLIS: Poor socialization. Poor breeding. The way people treat animals. And 99 percent of the people never train their dog. They never do.
COOPER: So it's more of a human problem?
MARGOLIS: Well, it's a dog problem because the dog does it. But it's a people problem. Because people don't understand the animal behavior. They bring dogs home like Lays potato chips and think OK, it is going to grow up like a plant. But obviously, training is always the answer. Most of these dogs are untrained and I think people feel guilty when their dog is aggressive. Like most people in denial. Like here's a woman bit by her own dog and says no, it tried to revive me.
COOPER: You have got this German shepherd with you, Edil. Are there tests that you can show how to know if a dog is potentially dangerous?
MARGOLIS: Well, yeah. There's a couple of tests especially children get bit so much. Come on, Edil. There's a thing called a hand shy test. If you get a dog, adopt a dog, don't know the dog and most people hit their animals. They'll go, what did you do, bad dog. A dog that is aggressive or shy would have growled or snarled and done something like that. He obviously is never been done that way so he's not going to get scared. The other thing is called a pain tolerance test.
Most children get bit by pulling on the dog, grabbing its ears. Doing this and doing this. And an animal that's stable is never going to be aggressive. A dog that's not stable is going to growl, snarl, that's why kids are bit in the face. Because they grab the dog's tail and you see a lot of parents allowing the dog -- child to lay on the dog. Pull on the dog. So like for example, you never pet a dog like this with your hand open. Because the dog can bite you. You make a knuckle sandwich so the dog is not going to get the mouth on your hand.
COOPER: I love the fact my dog, I can do anything to it and she just kind of sits there and smiles at me. What can you do to make sure the dog is not going to become vicious?
MARGOLIS: You mean not aggressive?
COOPER: Not aggressive.
MARGOLIS: First of all, you always test the dog. Do a personality test. You evaluate the animal. Make sure -- if a dog growls, snarls, curls the lip, barks at a stranger, that's a sign of aggression, it's like a rattlesnake rattling. You always -- first of all, never yell at your dog, never hit your dog. Always train it with affection and you have to be a realist, Anderson. You have to say, if he growls at somebody, this is a friendly dog right?
MARGOLIS: Looks friendly, doesn't he? Now, there's a same dog. Sit. That can be aggressive. Even though he is friendly. Friendly dogs can bite you.
MARGOLIS: You have to look at it say does he was the propensity for it? Does he growl at strangers? Does he not like children?
That's the key. Does he growl over the food ball. Can you take his toy away?
COOPER: That's all about training. Matthew Margolis, hey, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it and thanks for bringing the dog with you.
MARGOLIS: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: A tale of one film with an identity crisis you might say. Some Christians say it's a story of Jesus. Others believe it's just a fantasy adventure. What is it really? And how is it marketed by Disney to both those different groups. Talking about "Chronicles of Narnia." We'll have that story up ahead.
A scuffle on the football field that ended up in a state supreme court. The case is yet to be decided. A bizarre story you will see the tape and you can decide for yourself what you think the court should do when 360 continues.
COOPER: This weekend, religion may be coming back to the big screen in the form of a movie, "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." If you have seen trailers in theaters for the "Chronicles of Narnia" it's not being advertised as a faith-based film, but its distributor, Disney, is not discouraging Christians from thinking it is, in fact, it is reaching out to Christians, hoping that they're going to shell out big bucks as they did for "The Passion of Christ." It is an interesting way to market a film. Faith and values correspondent Delia Gallagher takes a look.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If you're the average moviegoer, Walt Disney Pictures has a message for you. If you like fun for the whole family movies like Harry Potter, you'll love the Disney's hugely expensive new film "the Chronicles of Narnia, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Impossible.
GALLAGHER: Another special effects-laden fantasy adventure. That's what all of America has been hearing for weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They take them.
GALLAGHER: But for nearly a year Disney has been sending one group a very different message. Telling them that you will like this movie if you liked this movie. That's right. Mel Gibson's deeply controversial ultra violent "Passion of the Christ." The faithful stunned Hollywood by flocking to "The Passion." The take so far, more than $600 million worldwide and still counting so Disney's trying to rake in those "Passion" dollars quietly but aggressively marketing "Narnia" to evangelicals as a Christian movie. It's a risky strategy. The studio doesn't want to alienate all those families who like their fantasy adventures but would avoid a spiritual tie-in. It is walking a fine line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enjoy your show.
GALLAGHER: Studio executives didn't really want to talk about their huge faith-based marketing effort. So we traveled to First Baptist Church in Fort Lauderdale to see for ourselves.
REV. LARRY THOMPSON, FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH: I want to welcome to you to this unique sneak peek of what I believe is going to be one of the greatest films of all time.
GALLAGHER: Pastor Larry Thompson has invited several hundred children to a special Narnia celebration, a chance to see an extended trailer for the film.
THOMPSON: Four, 3, 2, 1. Go to Narnia with me. GALLAGHER: The movie is based on the first book of the Chronicles of Narnia. A beloved seven volume series by the late British author C.S. Lewis. Seven volumes. It's a safe bet Disney execs are thinking Harry Potter meets "The Passion of the Christ" box office with lots of sequels.
"The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" tells the tale of four children who discover a magical wardrobe. A door into a wondrous land torn apart by a cruel witch and later saved by its true king, a noble lion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need your help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. But understand, the future of Narnia rests on your courage.
GALLAGHER: It doesn't seem deeply spiritual but for many evangelicals, that's exactly what it is.
THOMPSON: How many of you remember the name of the lion? What's its name? Aslan. In the movie, who does Aslan represent?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus.
THOMPSON: That's right. Aslan represents Jesus Christ.
GALLAGHER: C.S. Lewis is best known for Narnia but he was also one of the 20th century's foremost Christian writers. And it's widely accepted that he wrote Narnia as a biblical allegory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aslan is on the move.
GALLAGHER: That's why in the story ...
THOMPSON: Everything is frozen. It's always winter and it's never Christmas.
GALLAGHER: Events like the one at First Baptist happen over and over again, 140 churches across the country so far. In fact, Disney hired the same team that marketed "The Passion" to churches to preach the gospel of Narnia.
Do you think it is going to be good?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not good. Great. More than great, better.
GALLAGHER: Just as Disney hopes they spread the word about the movie, pastors hope the movie will spread the word about Jesus Christ.
(on camera): Do you think it's a movie to bring people to Christ?
THOMPSON: Oh, absolutely. Everything we do here has that goal to ultimately bring people to Christ.
All right. That is your lion. GALLAGHER (voice-over): Pastor Thompson is weaving Narnia into his Christmas season sermons.
THOMPSON: So that we can keep the children, the family all engaged at the same time.
GALLAGHER: Remember that fine marketing line Disney walks with Narnia?
DENNIS RICE, SVP, WALT DISNEY STUDIOS: It's a fantasy adventure. It is about four kids who are taken away from war torn London during World War II.
GALLAGHER (on camera): Is it also a Christian story?
RICE: If C.S. Lewis were here he would tell you that he didn't write a Christian book. And we don't think we've made a Christian movie.
GALLAGHER (voice-over): But they're hoping for a marketing miracle. And we know in Disney's magic kingdom, sometimes a lion is not just a lion. CNN, New York.
COOPER: Hmm. We'll be watching. We want to thank our international viewers for watching tonight.
For the rest, ahead on 360, former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein on trial and facing a secret witness. We take you inside the courtroom and we'll explain exactly who the guys are behind Saddam.
Plus, keeping them honest in New Orleans. We're bringing you new evidence of the chaos after Katrina. Chaos not in the flooded streets but in the halls of power. Emails between state, local and federal officials and what they show is very revealing.
And the wild man of "Animal House," John Belushi, tonight, hear about the life behind the fame and what may have led to his untimely death. When 360 continues.
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