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Nancy Grace

Search for Missing Doctor Leads to Human Remains; Hollywood Celebs Try to Convince Schwarzenegger to Grant Clemency to Stanley `Tookie` Williams

Aired December 09, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Last night, we reported the desperate search for a missing doctor and mother, Dr. Melinda Superville. Tonight we go live to determine whether human remains just discovered are those of the missing mom. Also tonight, Hollywood celebs join forces to convince California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for four-time convicted killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams, execution now set December 12. And also tonight, Michael Jackson in a money meltdown.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to think you for being with us tonight. Tonight, after beating the rap on child molestation charges, Michael Jackson reportedly is hiding out in Bahrain in the face of a $270 million foreclosure on Neverland. And also tonight, police brace for riots. The clock ticks down to four-time killer Stanley "Tookie" Williams`s California execution, his fate now in the hands of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

But first tonight: Police find human remains in Houston, Texas. Could it be doctor and mother of a 2-year-old little boy, Melinda Superville?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM SUPERVILLE, MISSING WOMAN`S HUSBAND: She`s my world! And I`ve asked everybody I can, what do you do? And nobody has any answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to go straight out to KTRH radio reporter Scott Braddock. Where were the remains found? Are they confirmed it`s a woman? And why is it rumored to be Melinda Superville?

SCOTT BRADDOCK, KTRH RADIO: Well, it is rumored, Nancy, to be Melinda Superville because her friends and family are saying that that`s the case. Her brother, we`re told, is the person who actually found the remains inside an abandoned home in northwest Houston, not far from where she went missing one week ago.

GRACE: Straight out to Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." Her car, her keys, her belongings all back at the chiropractic clinic, correct?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Right. And that`s what`s so strange about this because the body that was found was apparently a body with a gunshot wound to the head, a gun nearby. And by appearances, it appears to be a self-inflicted wound. But Nancy, you`re right, the keys are...

GRACE: Say what?

MORET: Yes, that`s what -- that`s...

GRACE: A self-inflicted wound?

MORET: Well, that`s the early reports that we`re getting. And what doesn`t make sense about that is it just doesn`t make sense that someone would walk to the office, put the keys in the door, and then say, Hey, you know what? I think I`m going to this abandoned house and kill myself. That just doesn`t add up.

GRACE: Straight back out to Scott Braddock, reporter with KTRH radio. From every case I have ever handled, the possibility that this woman would have self-inflicted a gunshot wound to her own head very, very low, Scott. Scott Braddock, what else can you tell me about these remains?

BRADDOCK: Well, what we can tell you is that the police are confirming that the remains do match the description of Ms. Superville, and they also say that in the home, in the otherwise abandoned home, there was a handgun found in that home. They did not tell us the proximity to the body. They are telling us that there was trauma to the head, but they are not confirming whether or not there was a gunshot wound to the remains. So...

GRACE: OK, Scott Braddock...

BRADDOCK: ... the police are very tight-lipped.

GRACE: Let me ask you this. Was there contact burns on the head?

BRADDOCK: They`re not telling us that. They`re being very non- specific...

GRACE: OK. Let me ask...

BRADDOCK: ... and simply saying there`s trauma to the head.

GRACE: ... you a couple of other questions. Scott, was there any gunshot residue on her hand?

BRADDOCK: They are not telling us that. In fact, they`re not even saying that the gun was near her body, they`re saying it was in the house with her.

GRACE: Interesting. I want to go straight out to Joe Huston. He helped find Melinda`s body -- we believe it is Melinda`s body -- search director with Equusearch. Joe, what can you tell us about these remains?

Everybody, this is a story we brought you last night, asking for your help to try to find this missing doctor and mother, Melinda Superville. Remember, her husband on last night in tears, trying to find his wife.

Joe, bring us up to date.

JOE HUSTON, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Thank you, Nancy. Basically, today, around 1:20 in the afternoon, approximately 150 yards from the chiropractic office, we sent a team down to check out an abandoned house. One of the members of the team happened to be Melinda`s brother. They went around to the back side of the house. There was a door that was basically kicked in.

They walked in, and when they get approximately to the first bedroom on the right, the brother saw the body. One of the other members of the search team also saw the body. She was dressed as she was reported to be, with the red sweater and bluejeans on.

GRACE: A couple of quick questions to Joe Huston. He`s the search director with Equusearch. He helped find these female remains that are believed to be Melinda Superville. Very quickly, Joe, you said 150 yards from the chiropractic office. Yes, no?

HUSTON: Yes.

GRACE: You also said the door apparently kicked in. Front door, back door?

HUSTON: Back door.

GRACE: No one lived there, correct?

HUSTON: Correct.

GRACE: Interesting. I want to go to medical examiner out of Washington, D.C., Dr. Jonathan Arden. Dr. Arden, welcome to the show. I don`t if you`ve ever read a book that was a great help to me when I was prosecuting called "Method and Assessment of Homicide and Suicide." If you look at the age of this mother, if you look at her gender, her race, everything about her, what is the likelihood, statistically, that she would have shot herself in the head in an abandoned house?

JONATHAN ARDEN, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think you`re bringing up excellent points, Nancy. She is not the typical candidate to commit suicide, certainly not without some sort of preexisting condition or indications of a reason to want to hurt herself. Women are not typically the types who use guns to commit suicide, shooting themselves in the head.

GRACE: Much less to the face or the head.

ARDEN: Absolutely. That`s exactly right. And so there`s so many different things that you`ve raised here about the modality of death, apparently, the location, the circumstances that really don`t add up. And I would have great doubts about this being a suicide unless we were presented with much stronger evidence, at this point.

GRACE: I have to agree with you on that. Very quickly, back to Scott Braddock, reporter with KTRH radio. How long had this home been abandoned? And can you tell us if we are learning if Melinda Superville had any prior mental history, any prior suicidal indications or suicide attempts?

BRADDOCK: We`re not hearing about any of those kind of attempts or any kind of an inclination like that on her part. What we are hearing about the home, Nancy, is that it was known as a vagrant home. It`s a place where homeless people would go in and, you know, spend the night and then leave.

GRACE: Good Lord! You know what? You know what? Elizabeth (ph), do I have Pat Brosnan? Rosie (ph), do I have Pat back? Let`s go to Pat Brosnan, retired NYPD detective now with Brosnan Investigations. Pat, let`s just take a hard look at this. A mother of a little boy 2 years old leaves her yogurt and her keys dangling in the door of the doctor`s practice where she worked, walks by foot 150 yards, kicks in the back door of an abandoned home where vagrants live, shoots herself in the head. Didn`t happen!

PAT BROSNAN, BROSNAN INVESTIGATIONS, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: I don`t buy it.

GRACE: Why?

BROSNAN: I don`t buy it. Well, a couple of different reasons. The totality of the facts, OK, Nancy, when you look at it, the abandoned house, her background, the relationship that everyone seems to have been convinced was the circumstances relative to her child and her husband, her history, everything together, and a gunshot wound -- how convenient. The weapon left there, OK? If in fact, it was a homicide, OK, which I`m inclined at this point, which is a very early point, to lean toward, leaving the gun there, however, would be the equivalent of a bank robber, say, leaving his driver`s license.

GRACE: You know what? You`re right about...

BROSNAN: So who really done it?

GRACE: Unless -- unless, Renee Rockwell -- unless the killer wanted it to look like a suicide, and in that case, this suddenly is not a random killing anymore because what killer that wants to take her purse or rape the lady or assault her in some way suddenly decides, Oh, I`ll set it up to look like suicide. Oh, no. Ix-nay!

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right, Nancy. And the very -- by virtue of the fact that you have a gun -- Nancy, you can get a fingerprint off of any number of points on this gun. And was there a note? Was there any prior depression? Was there any talk of death? These are the questions that people will be asking. But it doesn`t sound like it. It sounds like somebody killed her and wanted it to look like a suicide.

GRACE: And the fact that this was a residential area, the chiropractic clinic was in a strip mall, you want to tell me nobody saw her being wrestled 150 yards away? I mean, that`s a football field plus. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUPERVILLE: I`m doing any and everything we can to help find my wife, Melinda. When she went missing, I notified the Houston police. They`ve searched my house and the office -- our house and the office. They`ve looked for her. The church has a volunteer search group. And today, Texas Equusearch began an intensive search for her.

I returned from lunch shortly before 1:00 o`clock and drove by the office to our house, which is one block behind the clinic, on a residential street behind the strip center. I went to the house and unloaded a Christmas tree, went in, washed my hands and checked the house -- the bedrooms to see if Melinda was maybe laying down, taking a nap, and see if she was at home. And she was not there, so I left the truck there and I walked back to the office. And as I walked up to the office, Melinda`s keys were dangling in the lock.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Scott Braddock with KTRH radio. Scott, do we know if the family even owned a gun?

BRADDOCK: We don`t know that, at this point. Of course, police are going to be looking into that to try to figure out if there`s any history of gun ownership.

GRACE: Well, can you tell me this, Scott Braddock? Had there been any calls to police to come to their home before?

BRADDOCK: That is another thing that people are very interested to hear. And that`s -- you know, that`s one of those million-dollar questions. People are going to be looking at the history the family to find out...

GRACE: It`s not a million-dollar question!

BRADDOCK: ... if there is something like that.

GRACE: There`s got to be a 911 call record, if any exists. Ellie (ph), do we know of any?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve got a record of, I believe, three calls to the house.

GRACE: Regarding?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once a female having a disturbance with a male, a burglary last year, and in `03, harassment.

GRACE: To Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." Jim, do we know anything else about the conditions of where the gun was found, if this was a suicide, which to me seems highly unlikely? Where the gun was lying in relation to the body would be significant. If a gun was registered to her -- listen, this lady did not have a stolen gun, OK? I can vouch for that tonight, Jim.

MORET: The only thing that we know, Nancy, we`re being told the gun was found in the proximity of the body. That doesn`t really tell us a lot. But the medical examiner, obviously, is going to do a thorough investigation and find out if what appears to be a self-inflicted wound was a self-inflicted wound.

You know, we`ve talking about the keys being in her office some 150 yards away, 150 feet away. It doesn`t make sense, Nancy. You know when things look right and you know when they don`t. Something`s wrong here.

GRACE: And very quickly, back to Joe Huston, the search director with Equusearch. Everybody, you know about Equusearch. We first became familiar with them during the Natalee Holloway case. Joe, what else can you tell me about who found these female remains?

HUSTON: Basically, it was the brother and three of our female volunteers went to he house specifically to take a look at it, and those are the ones that found the remains.

GRACE: To Jeff Gardere, psychologist. Dr. Gardere, typical method of suicide for a woman?

JEFFREY GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s usually sleeping pills. And in this particular case, when we talked about that this might be with a gun, normally, we don`t see that. That`s typically the way that a male may try to kill themselves.

GRACE: When somebody kills themselves, Dr. Gardere, do you normally have a history of suicidal ideation or threats to commit suicide or prior attempts?

GARDERE: There usually is some sort of a prior attempt, or they may have been talking about it and someone found out and got them some sort of help. But we also see that there`s a history of either depression or of bipolar depression, where they may become psychotic and act out in that way. But we have to look at what kind of history she had, her pre-morbid psychological history, as well as her history with her husband. That needs to be explored at the same time.

GRACE: And Alex Sanchez, the husband apparently -- Jim Moret, hasn`t he been cooperating with police? Do we know that?

MORET: Well, he called the police. You heard him say that. You also heard him plead for any information. And there`s no indication that he has not been cooperating. Every indication (INAUDIBLE) he is. The police are saying tonight they do not believe him to be a suspect.

GRACE: Very quickly, to Alex Sanchez. Alex, apparently -- well, I spoke to the husband last night here on the show, and he told me that he had taken a polygraph. I have learned today it was a private polygraph. When you have a private polygraph, not a cop polygraph, you pick the polygrapher, you make up the questions. It`s controlled by you. I don`t even know what the questions are.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That raises a serious question in my mind because if he was seriously interested...

GRACE: Hey! Hey!

SANCHEZ: ... in taking a polygraph...

GRACE: Mr. Sanchez, you`re the defense lawyer!

SANCHEZ: Yes, I am a defense lawyer, but I`m concerned about the fact that the defendant, or not the defendant, this fellow went for a private polygraph examination. He should have gone directly to the police and said, Look, pick a polygraph expert. I`ll go with you. No lawyer present. I`ll take the polygraph test.

GRACE: Yes, remember...

SANCHEZ: The fact that he went to somebody else first -- I don`t think that was -- that was the right thing for him to do.

GRACE: That`s an interesting point, Alex Sanchez. We`ll all be right back. I want to remind you, the husband in this case, also a doctor, not a suspect. While other people were out looking for his wife, he decided to line up a private polygraph, which he says he passed.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." An Ohio court will decide whether a couple accused of forcing their 11 adopted children to sleep in cages gets the children back. Sharon and Michael Gravel (ph) deny abusing the children. They say they built wood and chicken-wire cages to protect the children. OK! Psychologists disagree. They say the cages cause even additional harm to special needs children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUPERVILLE: I came up to the clinic and I walked up, and her keys -- car keys, office key, house key -- were hanging from the door. And I thought, Well, that`s odd. Maybe the phone rang when she came up or her hands were full. So I came in the office, which I pulled her -- got her keys, came in the office, turned on the lights, the radio, started the therapy equipment on. And her yogurt was sitting at the front desk, that she usually eats for breakfast, but it wasn`t real cold. It had been sitting out a while. But no sign of Melinda.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Before we go to California, straight back out to Texas. We told you last night about a mother and doctor missing. Now, actually, just a few hours ago, remains discovered about 150 yards away from her medical clinic, from her home. We believe those female remains are those of Dr. Melinda Superville.

Straight back out to Scott Braddock with KTRH radio. When do you think the remains will be confirmed as hers?

BRADDOCK: Well, the Houston Police Department is going to take their time, Nancy. And it`s interesting that we were talking earlier about whether or not there were any suspects in the case, when there can`t be because they haven`t even identified the remains.

GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat.

BRADDOCK: They couldn`t -- we were talking about whether or not there were any suspects yet, and there can`t be any suspects yet because the remains haven`t been identified.

GRACE: Good point.

To Jim Moret, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition." I mean, think about it, Jim. I believe you played high school football -- 150 yards, think about it. It`s a football field and a half that she had to go from her chiropractic clinic, keys dangling in the front door, which would suggest -- but wait a minute! Her yogurt was inside. So she had gotten inside. The yogurt was sitting out on the desk, right, Jim?

MORET: Right. And also look at who this woman is. She`s 5 foot 7, 125 pounds. We were already told that the door of that -- of that -- the back door of that abandoned house was kicked in. It doesn`t sound like the actions of a woman able to do that, frankly. It just doesn`t make sense. Things don`t add up. And I don`t know. There`s more questions I have today, frankly, than I did yesterday.

GRACE: To Dr. Jonathan Arden, medical examiner out of the D.C. jurisdiction. Doctor, how long will it take to positively identify this woman, if it is, in fact, Melinda Superville?

ARDEN: Well, they should be able to do that fairly quickly. I mean, first of all, she should be -- her body should be well preserved. They should be able to do a visual identification on her. You could certainly do a dental comparison very quickly. I bet, as a doctor, she has medical and dental records available. I don`t know if she has fingerprints. That`ll be another thing to look at, but...

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t you have to be fingerprinted to be able to prescribe drugs or be a doctor or chiropractor?

ARDEN: In some jurisdictions yes, in some, no. So she may or may not have fingerprints, but she`s probably visually identifiable, and that would be the quickest and easiest way. And certainly, a dental comparison could be done in as little as a couple of hours...

GRACE: Very quickly.

ARDEN: ... once they get her body.

GRACE: That`s right, Doctor. You don`t need DNA to make a positive comparison based on dental records.

Everybody, this is going to come out very quickly. Tom Superville does have a criminal record. It dates back to `78. Let`s put that up, Rosie. Dangerous drugs, deferred in `78. DUI dismissed `82. Marijuana `82. In `85, narcotic equipment possession. None of that just leaps out at me, Renee, and says he`s connected to this in any way. I`m more concerned about the timeline. Remember, he said the yogurt was sitting on her desk, but her keys were stuck in the door. Why is that? How can that be?

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, didn`t they talk about the keys not being able to be removed from the door? What concerns me more is that anybody would even let him take a polygraph. He obviously has not lawyered up yet. Private polygraph, public, police giving polygraphs? I don`t like it. I don`t like polygraphs. They`re not reliable.

GRACE: Yes, well, that`s because you`re a defense lawyer.

ROCKWELL: Absolutely. But he shouldn`t have taken one.

GRACE: Well, he did, and he says he passed. And we all know that`s not going to come into evidence.

Everybody, remains have been found within the past couple of hours in Houston, Texas. We`ve been trying to help find Dr. Melinda Superville. She has a 2-year-old little boy at home waiting for his mom. We believe tonight that this is, in fact, Dr. Superville.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracker." We need your help. More than a month has passed since 55-year-old Dr. Zara Otari (ph) disappeared from Oakland, California, her family desperately searching for her, offering a $20,000 reward. If you have info on Dr. Zara Otari, please call 408-277-4786.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: When do you expect to make a decision on Tookie?

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: I really don`t know because I`m working on it and looking -- studying the whole thing, reading a lot last night until 11:00 o`clock, almost to midnight. And I will be reading and doing all the research on it so we make the right decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I`m not sure exactly what he just said, but I think he`s working on the Stanley "Tookie" Williams death penalty case that is set for December 12. Tookie Williams has a peace image consultant. He`s got a fat wad of money in his jail account, and he is a four-time convicted killer.

Straight out to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. Bring us up to date. Is Schwarzenegger going to give this guy clemency?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: I`m going to say no. I`m really going to -- a lot of people are saying he`s going to fall to the pressure of his celebrity buds. I really don`t think so.

You know, Nancy, what`s interesting about this case, for all the hubbub that`s been made about the whole race issue, I`m not hearing too many angry people running up and down the streets in Los Angeles. And believe me, I`ve covered it all, including the LA riots. I just don`t see where this is that -- you know, yes, it`s interesting because it`s celebrity, but I think he`s going to say no. And I think we might have a pocket here or there of some trouble, nothing big, maybe some yellers and screamers, and then it`s good night, Tookie.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORA OWENS, ALBERT OWENS` STEPMOTHER: Albert was working the night shift because, you know, he took that job because he needed the money. And Williams and his group come in.

Albert had been taught that if there`s a robbery let them have the money. No one gets hurt. But Williams took him into the back room, literally just had him lie down on his stomach, and then shot him in the back at close range with a 12-gauge shotgun twice.

JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR: Don`t kill this guy. Don`t kill him, especially don`t kill him on my birthday, because I want to be happy on Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did he just say, "Don`t kill him on my birthday"? Did I hear that? The victims` families include not only the family of Albert Owens, just 26 years old. And let me tell you a little bit about Albert Owens. He had served in the U.S. military, was working two jobs to get ahead. And one of those jobs, a night job at a 7-Eleven.

Do you ever drive by a 7-Eleven and see the lonely guy in there? Well, this guy was out in front sweeping the parking lot on a second job, minding his own business when, according to this appellate record that I`ve got in my hand by an appeals court in California, says Tookie Williams takes him to the back, robs the place, and makes him lay down, shoots him in the back until he`s dead.

But that`s not all. According to this appellate decision -- and this is based on the trial transcript -- there are other victims, three Asian victims, minding their own business, running a motel. They are 67-year- old, Yen-I Yang, his wife, 63, Tsai-Shai Yan, and their daughter, their gun, Ye-Chen Lin, all gunned down for $120. For what? According to the trial evidence, to buy angel dust, PCP.

Is that true or not, Jim Moret?

MORET: Yes, it is true. And there have been 25 years of appeals and there`s been no overturning of the decisions that Tookie Williams committed these murders.

And, according to the appeal now for clemency, Stanley "Tookie" Williams has maintained, by the way, his innocence. He`s not saying he`s sorry, because he says he didn`t do it. But he`s asking for mercy. And those people who are associated with the victims and their families say, "Why should he get mercy when the victims didn`t?"

GRACE: Well, I want to tell you something. I have scoured the archives. We`ve gone to the New York Public Library and looked at the microfiche trying to find anything about this Asian family that was gunned down in the motel. Nothing. They`re not even remembered.

We found one article. And we highlighted them in yellow. This is all that remains of an entire family, wiped out to buy PCP, angel dust.

To Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, who are the celebrities lining up to talk Schwarzenegger into clemency?

LALAMA: The two biggest names -- and you saw one of them -- Jamie Foxx, the other Snoop Dogg, who was, by the way, at one point a member of the Crips. And, you know, there`s a string of other people, but those two have been the loudest, the most vocal. Then, of course, you have, you know, Jesse Jackson and various -- and sundry other people.

But, you know, Nancy, the important thing here: This is not a question about the death penalty. That`s an issue for another day. This is an issue of, what has this man done to deserve clemency? Is he sorry? Has he turned his life around? And what impact have his actions had on the community?

Everybody I talk to in leading positions in the African-American community in Los Angeles tell me most young gangsters don`t even know who the heck he is. It`s the old guys, the original gangsters, the OGs, you know, the 67-year-old guys who know who he is.

The young guys don`t know. They`re not reading his so-called books. They haven`t learned anything from him. And I can find some other defense attorney to come forward with his client, who probably has done something on death row that`s changed society. This, I don`t see.

GRACE: You`re taking a look at Tookie Williams walking through the courtyard of the prison.

Very quickly, Rosie, can you pull up for me those privileges that are to be had there at the prison? And while you`re doing that, I`m going to human rights advocate -- oh, there we go. TV in the cell. I don`t even have that at home, all right?

Exercise room. I have to pay for that, about $100 bucks a month. Religious services, full access to the law library. The list does go on. That is what Tookie Williams has been afforded the last 26 years of life.

And hey, Rosie, show me that shot again. Obviously, somebody has been using the gym facilities. Those arms look like two Virginia hams, OK? That doesn`t happen overnight.

Now, here is a woman that I disagree with but respect immensely, human rights advocate Bianca Jagger. Bianca Jagger, please give us your reasons why clemency should be granted in Williams` case.

BIANCA JAGGER, HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Yes. Let me answer a few of the issues that were brought up in here, because we`re talking as if it is a fact that Stanley "Tookie" Williams committed those terrible four crimes.

Let me talk about his prosecutor, Mr. Robert Martin. Mr. Robert Martin, who dismissed three black jurors from his jury without any explanation, has had other cases before the Supreme Court that the Supreme Court has reversed because they found him to have engaged in impermissible racial discrimination when composing a jury.

GRACE: Ms. Jagger? Ms. Jagger?

JAGGER: Then in addition to that...

GRACE: I just am asking you: Are you telling me Stanley "Tookie" Williams is factually innocent?

JAGGER: Well, I feel that Mr. Williams should have the opportunity to be able to prove that he is innocent. I went to visit him when I went in San Quentin.

And one of the things that I was very concerned when I went there was the fact that he had not apologized or said that he felt remorse for the crimes for which he was convicted and condemned to death. And I ask him, "Why didn`t you do it?" Because I heard that on NPR that he had not done it.

And he said to me, "I haven`t asked for forgiveness or I have not shown any remorse for those crimes, because I did not commit it. And even though it probably will work against me, I cannot lie in order to get"...

GRACE: OK, that`s an excellent point, Bianca Jagger.

To John Patrick Dolan, defense attorney...

JAGGER: But I would like...

GRACE: ... hold on; I want to get to the other panelists very quickly -- who has tried many, many death penalty cases as a defense attorney.

John Patrick Dolan, welcome, number one. But also, in this case, the gunshot wounds, the bullets taken from them, match up directly to Tookie Williams` gun.

JOHN PATRICK DOLAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think in this case you have to accept that he`s guilty, because he`s been through the entire appellate process. I still think the clemency decision is a no-brainer. Who in the last 1,000 people that we`ve executed since the death penalty was reinstated has received a nomination for a Nobel Prize? It has to be believed that this guy has some redeeming value and can make positive contributions to society.

GRACE: Dolan, so did Hitler, for Pete`s sake. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

DOLAN: Hitler?

GRACE: You`re laughing. Yes.

DOLAN: Well, I don`t think he`s in the same category as Hitler.

JAGGER: (OFF-MIKE) books for young people. And...

GRACE: There you go. Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Benito Mussolini. OK, there`s a heck of a group. Put up...

DOLAN: Excellent company.

GRACE: But, OK, John Patrick Dolan, give me your best shot...

DOLAN: This guy is making contributions about gang violence. That`s the difference.

GRACE: OK. So you`re saying he has tried to rehabilitate himself. That comes into play.

DOLAN: Absolutely.

GRACE: And very quickly, to Jim Moret, chief correspondent, "Inside Edition," Jim, is Schwarzenegger, the Terminator, going to cave into his celebrity friends? The clemency hearings were closed-door.

MORET: Yes, they were.

GRACE: This last meeting.

MORET: Well, you have to look back. The last time clemency was granted in California was in 1967, and it was granted by Schwarzenegger`s hero, Ronald Reagan. That`s not to say Arnold Schwarzenegger will grant clemency.

He`s getting a lot of pressure here. There`s no question about it. It`s going to be a tough decision. And it`s not going to be welcome by half of the community, I would suspect, you know? But there are some other issues. One of the issues...

GRACE: You mean the old Crips members? They`re not going to be happy? This is the alleged founder of the Crips.

MORET: That`s true. He is.

GRACE: To Lawanda Hawkins -- everyone, a very special guest with us tonight. Her son was murdered by a gang member, a Crips gang member, and she found it and runs Justice for Murdered Children.

Ma`am, thank you for being with us.

LAWANDA HAWKINS, SON MURDERED BY GANG MEMBER: Thank you, Nancy, for having me on the show. And also, I`m a member of Crime Victims United of California. That`s who I`m speaking on behalf of tonight.

GRACE: What`s your opinion?

HAWKINS: My opinion? This is unbelievable that they would even think about granting clemency to a man who has been found guilty of killing four. But besides killing that four, he was found guilty of -- he co-founded a gang that has killed thousands of people.

And as a parent whose only child was murdered by that gang he co- founded, I beg the governor: Please do not grant clemency to Tookie Williams. It would be sending the wrong message to the community. It would be like a smack in the face to the victims and the families of the victims.

GRACE: Ms. Hawkins, if you could speak to Schwarzenegger tonight, what would you say?

HAWKINS: I would ask him: Please do not forget my son, Reginald LaKeith Reese (ph). He was murdered December the 6th, 1995, in San Pedro, by this gang Tookie Williams co-founded called the Crips. Not only was my child, but thousands of other children were murdered by this gang he co- founded called the Crips.

To us, family members who are alive whose children have been murdered, please do not grant clemency.

Also, remember his wife, Maria. Her uncles were murdered. I don`t understand this. Why wasn`t clemency given to our children when a lot of them begged for their lives?

GRACE: Governor Schwarzenegger, if you can hear Lawanda Hawkins, maybe you will refuse to grant clemency to a four-time convicted killer. We`ll all be right back.

But first tonight, there is happiness in the world, a special holiday happy birthday to a beautiful lady, 97-year-old Ann Saint John (ph). Ms. Saint John, one of five generations watching the show tonight. There they are. Ma`am, keep the faith and happy birthday to Ms. Ann.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. OWENS: It`s hard, the wait`s hard. But, you know, it`s not an easy decision for him. And I want him to take his time, look at the facts. I believe, with all my heart, that if he looks at the facts and not all of the political and the Hollywood hype, he`s going to make the right decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Her son, Albert Owens, gunned down by Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Now, Governor Schwarzenegger must decide whether to grant clemency.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Before we take you to the Michael Jackson story, straight back to Lawanda Hawkins with Justice for Murdered Children. Her son murdered nearly 20 years ago today -- it was December 6th -- by a gang member.

Ms. Hawkins, again, thank you for being with us. I know the killer of your boy was never brought to justice. Do you believe Williams is reformed?

HAWKINS: No, I do not. I think he has that jailhouse mentality the rest of them have once they get to jail. They all find God, and they`ve all turned their life around.

I just never understood, why can`t they do that before they get to jail and before they commit this crime? And regarding my son, December the 6th, 1995, my son was murdered. It`s been 10 years. And the reason that we have not got anyone in the court system right now is because this gang called the Crips are intimidating the witnesses.

GRACE: Well, on behalf of Albert Owens tonight, Yen-I Yang, his wife, Tsai-Shai Yang, their daughter, Ye-Chen Lin, Gov. Schwarzenegger, it`s not all about Tookie Williams.

We are switching gears now to another quasi-California story. It`s all about Michael Jackson.

Rosie, you got that sound for me? Play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Jackson hasn`t sold Neverland and he has no intentions of doing so. I know of no liens on Neverland at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Ruh-roh! Straight back out to Jim Moret, chief correspondent, "Inside Edition." Neverland, bye-bye.

MORET: Well, a lot of things could be going good-bye for Michael Jackson. He`s facing a foreclosure on virtually everything he owns, the Sony/ATV catalog, which includes the Beatles songs, his MyJack catalog, which includes all of those Michael Jackson songs, like "Billie Jean" and so forth, and Neverland.

There were a couple of payments that were owing on the debt, which is in the area of $270 million. Yes, I know. I hear you coughing. That`s a big mortgage. He owes...

GRACE: That was a pill. $270 million? OK, go ahead. How`s he going to get out of it?

MORET: Well, he missed one payment -- he missed a payment in October, missed a payment in December. Basically, the way to get out of it, he needs somebody to come up with $270 million at this point. And if he doesn`t, he could stand to lose everything.

There`s also one other piece of property that a payment was not made on, and that is the second mortgage on his parents` home in Encino. So you could have an entire family that`s basically homeless, although we know that he`s staying in Bahrain now in a palace. He`s the guest of the prince there. But virtually everything that he worked for, everything that he had, could be gone.

GRACE: To Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, what has led to Jackson`s financial downfall?

LALAMA: Oh, my gosh. I wish you had a three-hour show. But I`ll try to make it short.

First of all, he`s a compulsive spender. He doesn`t know how to stop. And I think, because of his sense of invincibility -- "I`ll take 14 of those, and I`ll take 60 of those," that`s his mentality.

Secondly, he`s had advisers around him, I believe, who probably have maybe not given him the best advice. I think Jim Moret could probably speak to the fact that there was a deal in the works just a few months ago where he would have been free and clear, and he could have taken all of this weight off of himself, and just gone on further. But my understanding is he didn`t accept it.

Add to that all the people who are filing lawsuits against him. Just recently, someone from his advisory team filed a $65 million lawsuit. Mark Schaffel, the gentleman -- the former porn producer who worked with him on the rebuttal tape, he`s got a lawsuit.

I could go on and on about the lawsuits. I won`t bore you. But the fact of the matter is, he eventually -- it`s just going to -- you know, you rob Peter to pay Paul, eventually, you know, you`ve got nothing left.

GRACE: Dr. Gardere, what led to his downfall?

GARDERE: Well, I think a lot of it, of course...

GRACE: I mean, how do you get $270 million in debt unless you`re a company?

GARDERE: Well, I think part of what`s going on is he is a compulsive spender; that we know. But, of course, the negative publicity from the trials on child molestation has hurt his reputation. It`s kept him from working, to do the things that he needs to do.

And I think this is a very unhappy individual, very depressed individual. And he`s not really paying attention to his finances. But I need to point out: He`s Michael Jackson. And he can find a way, with the proper advisers, to restructure a lot of that distressed debt.

GRACE: Renee Rockwell, anything he can do between now and December 20th to stop for closure?

ROCKWELL: Well, he`s in the right place, Nancy.

GRACE: Bahrain?

ROCKWELL: He`s in Bahrain. Yes, he could have somebody -- somebody over there could write a check and pay it off, or he could maybe get relief from the bankruptcy court.

GRACE: And to Sanchez, Alex Sanchez, his celebrity, does it make him a target for all of these lawsuits or did he ask for it?

SANCHEZ: I think it makes him a target. People see him -- they think he`s very, very wealthy. They see him as having a lot of funds and resources and land. And why not sue Michael Jackson?

But, you know, Michael Jackson can completely get out of this situation. And that is start producing a lot of number-one albums.

GRACE: Yes.

SANCHEZ: And he`ll be back on top of the world again.

GRACE: Yes, not working.

Fifteen seconds, Jim Moret, Brian Oxman, the family attorney, says this isn`t true.

MORET: I know he`s said that for some time. We are understanding that it is true, that we have heard about these debts for months. We knew there was a deal on the table to help him out. And he denied it. And now look where he is.

GRACE: Jim Moret, joining us with all the latest on Michael Jackson, chief correspondent with "Inside Edition."

Quick break. And very quickly to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI, law enforcement across the country on the lookout for David Nam, wanted in connection with the `96 murder of 77-year-old Anthony Schroeder (ph).

Nam is 28, 6`1", 180 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 215-418-4000.

Local news next for some of you. But we`ll all be right back. Please stay with us, as we remember Marine Lance Corporal Scott Modeen, just 24 years old, an American hero.

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GRACE: Can you believe it`s already Friday? What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: We are searching for a 12-year-old missing Texas girl, last seen sleeping on her own sofa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What has authorities so baffled, Nancy, is what they`re not seeing. They found no signs of struggle, no signs of foul play, and they can`t find this 12-year-old child to save their lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just can`t see (INAUDIBLE) tried to put up a fight or anything. She`s too brave. Whoever she left with, she trusted them. She (INAUDIBLE) and all I`m asking, if you have her, please bring her back to me. I mean, I can`t make it without her. Please bring her back to me, please.

GRACE: Human remains found. Could it be 21-year-old Christine Rudy? Six-month-pregnant Rudy vanished, last seen on a Wisconsin roadside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our ultimate goal is to, obviously, find Christine alive and be able to speak to her about this whole incident.

GRACE: After victims rights advocates railed against a sweetheart plea deal, the cover-girl teacher Debra LaFave did zero -- zero, nada, nothing -- no jail time for molesting a school boy. The judge says no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To place an attractive young woman is that kind of hellhole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions. I`m not sure that Debbie would be able to survive.

GRACE: What, what, what, wait, wait, wait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes?

GRACE: He didn`t want her to go to jail because she was too pretty for prison? Uh-oh, Debra LaFave was smiling a little too fast for the cameras. They are headed to trial.

Please help us crack the case of this girl, a 21-year-old co-ed murdered. One long year later, her killer still walking free amongst us? Her parents and police refuse to give up on Johnia`s case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard enough living without Johnia. It`s been really hard living without knowing why this happened. I mean, there`s no reason that will ever be good enough for this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Thank you tonight to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you to you, for being with us tonight and this week, letting us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. Special goodnight from the control room here in New York. There they go. And from two special guests here, Abby and Elizabeth. You girls don`t have a juvenile history do you? No, no. OK, good, good.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END