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CNN Live Today

Patriot Act at Center of Last-Minute Battle in Congress

Aired December 16, 2005 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE TODAY: Senators must decide whether to follow or filibuster. Several important provisions of the act expire soon. Now, lawmakers are eager to get home for the holiday break.
In Lancaster Count, Pennsylvania, the prosecutor says he plans to seek the death penalty against an 18 year old accused of killing his girlfriend's parents. David Ludwig is accused of shooting Michael and Catherine Borden to death and going on the run with their daughter, Kara. The DA announced just a short time ago he will seek the death penalty for Ludwig, but he doesn't plan to charge the girl.

Talks are stalled but trains are still moving in New York. That's for now. The Transport Workers Union called for a partial strike starting with two bus lines. The strike could eventually extend to the city's subway system. The union wants pay raises, improved health plans and a stronger pension fund.

A Federal Express truck flipped over this morning on an icy patch of I-495, in Virginia. Affiliate station WTTG reports that the driver of the truck was killed. Icy roads are causing problems in several areas this morning. Meteorologist Bonnie Schneider will have an update on the wintry weather in just a few minutes.

Authorities say an explosion that shook north Texas today was caused by a natural gas well. The blast set off fires in an area west of Fort Worth. Officials say the secondary fires are under control, but the gas simply needs to burn. The sheriff says one worker was hurt in that explosion.

We are expecting an update any minute now on the surgery to remove a huge tumor-like growth from the face of a 14-year-old Haitian girl. Doctors are holding a news conference this hour in Miami. And we're watching for developments. The operation on Marlie Kasias (ph) lasted 16 hours. She will still need more surgery to reconstruct her features.

Good morning. Welcome to the second hour of CNN LIVE TODAY. It is just past 11 a.m. And it is back here to Atlanta, Georgia, from CNN Center in Atlanta, I am Daryn Kagan.

We begin with our "Security Watch". A show down in the Senate, a test vote this hour on the Patriot Act. Key parts of the law expire in 15 days unless Congress renews them. But several senators, Republicans and Democrats included, want more time to add safe guards for civil liberties. They are talking about a filibuster. CNN's Andrea Koppel is keeping watch on the political dust up this morning.

Andrea, good morning.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.

Well as the clock ticks down to the start of that Senate vote at the bottom of the hour, both sides are jockeying for position. On one side, you have the Republican leadership, which is going to hold a vote to cut off debate right about 11:30. But in order to do so, they will need 60 votes. The Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist says that he has the votes.

On the other side of the aisle you've got Democrat Harry Reid, the minority leader, of Nevada. And you have Russ Feingold, of Wisconsin, both of them saying they are going to filibuster if they do not get the changes that they need.

They are leading a growing numbers of senators on both side of the aisle, threatening that filibuster unless major portions of the legislation are changed. In particular they want more restrictions on the ability of the FBI to demand things like business records, to issue national security letters for information, and to search people's homes all without notifying the target until 30 days later.

KAGAN: Actually, I'm going to jump in here, because Senator Joe Lieberman, at the White House today. He and other senators have been meeting with President Bush talking about national security. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN, (D-CT): That's why we're there. We're there to protect their right to do that.

The second thing, I'll just say for myself. I said to the president, I wasn't the only one that the last two weeks have been critically important. And I believe maybe seen as a turning point in the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism.

The four presidential speeches, the NSC document, the Strategy for Victory and then yesterday's election. A turning point in the sense they believe the president has begun a new conversation with the American people, looking back and talking again about why we went in to Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Why we remain there. Why success in Iraq is so critical to America's national security and how we intend to win.

And my opinion the difference in this town, here in Washington, on the war, is not between Democrats and Republicans. It is between people who believe, essentially we've already lost in Iraq, and it is time to get out. And most of the rest of us, who believe not only have we not lost, but we are winning. And in either case, it is critically important that we win so let's work together to do that.

This was a very constructive exchange of views, questions and answers. I think it is the beginning of not only a new chapter for Iraq, but for Americans working together for victory in Iraq.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN, (R-AZ): As Joe said, we had an excellent briefing from General Casey and the ambassador. But also we got an important update from Senator Biden and Senator Graham, who observed the elections. And they gave us some interesting perspectives as well.

This is a significant moment in the history of Iraq, and its movement on the path toward democracy and freedom. I think it is important to emphasize, again, there is a long, hard struggle ahead. There is a lot of things that have to be achieved, including the formation of a government. We are guardedly optimistic, but there are a lot of hurdles that lay ahead in this incredible experiment.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Well, I think Senator McCain nailed it, guardedly optimistic. They have to write a constitution. Will the constitution allow women to have a real role in Iraq? There are groups that want the constitution to reflect religious law, not some middle ground. There are groups in Iraq who want to use democracy for political pay back and from the Shia side. And there are people in the Shia side who want to live together with Sunnis and Kurds.

I don't know what's going to happen in the next six months but we have the best chance in a long time to get it right, if we'll understand our mistakes and adjust. The ministry of interior is seen by many Iraqis as an unfair entity. The police are developing not as a national police force, but are seen as an agent of a political philosophy. We need to address that.

The Army is progressing, but we need to make sure this is a national army. There will be no stability in Iraq, as long as the militia are allowed to exists. You can not have a democracy where you have political parties, with armies. So, those are the challenges ahead. The Iraqi people want it. They have been dying for it, I hope they can pull it off.

TOM CARPER, (D-DE): Tom Carpenter from Delaware. Yesterday's election provides momentum not just for us, but for Iraqi people. The question is, how do we sustain that momentum? How do they sustain that momentum?

We have heard our president say any number of times that when the Iraqis stand up, we'll stand down. We have given a hand out and an opportunity for a briefing from Zarqazawe Zadir (ph), ambassador, and from General Casey.

To the extent of how our troops are -- well, how the Iraqi troops are standing up in terms of their ability to carry the fight to the insurgents, it is time for us to acknowledge, Democrats and Republicans, that the Iraqis are standing up militarily, they are able to do more. And frankly, we are able to begin to do a bit less.

There are many things that is separate the Iraqis, the Sunni's, the Shi'ites and Kurds. One of the things they seem to agree on, I just came back less than two weeks ago, but one of the things they seem to agree on, to me, is they'd like to see us stay around. They would like for us to be close by as needed, but they would like to see us be less visible. They'd like to see there be fewer of us.

We have an opportunity coming on the heels of yesterday's historic vote to begin to be less visible, to begin to be less numerous, and to begin redeploy our troops, starting in January, and continuing throughout the year.

Not with the idea of being out in six, 12 months, or even 24 months, there is a good opportunity for us to use this as a catalyst to begin to redeploy our troops. And my hope is that we do that. We do that, we reduce the -- really, the latent support I think that the insurgents have. A lot of the Iraqis here us say as long as it takes, for them that means we're there until we get their oil, all of it, then we will go. That is not our intent at all and we need to make that clear.

NORM COLEMAN, (D-MN): We got a good briefing. Senator Graham laid out some of the challenges. The biggest danger that we face, the biggest danger that we face is losing the hearts and the minds of the American public. So, these conversations, this bipartisan conversation that we had with the president today, I think yesterday, two days ago, we had members of the House, bipartisan conversations, are important.

His speeches to the American public, his conversation with the American public is important. I think we have a pretty clear understanding, one of great opportunity, that we seized yesterday. The challenges that are ahead, but clearly, within this country, we have to continue to have a conversation, to listen, to recognize, you know, the things that we have to do better. We have to do it in a bi- partisan way and today was a good part of that.

QUESTION: Senators, can you take a question on the reports --

QUESTION: Does the threat of terrorism justify warrantless monitoring of U.S. citizens communications?

MCCAIN: You know, all I know what is what I read in the newspaper, which I know is always totally, absolutely accurate. So, obviously we need to look into that. I asked him the question this morning. The first I knew of it is what I saw this morning in the paper.

QUESTION: How would you feel about such a thing, theoretically?

MCCAIN: Well, theoretically, I obviously wouldn't like it. I don't know the extent of it, I don't know enough about it to really make an informed comment. Ask me again in about a week.

QUESTION: You're saying Congress should investigate?

MCCAIN: I wouldn't quote it "investigate". We should be informed as to exactly what is going on. Then, find out whether an investigation is called for. All we have is initial reports.

QUESTION: Senator, the question about Iraq, and some of your comments as well. This administration has made a point on numerous occasions, that as the political process moves forward and democracy takes root, it will be a death blow to the insurgency, but not only what we can all see, but also experts on the ground, there, have noticed something just the opposite. That violence has always accompanied the political process and political progress. Why should Americans take great heart in the progress of politics in Iraq, as being you know, any kind of death blow to the insurgency?

MCCAIN: David, I think our expectations have been raised all too often. And then dashed by events on the ground. That is why I emphasized guardedly optimistic. But I would point out in this last few weeks, leading up to and during the election, there was a dramatic decrease in the problem that you stated.

There were almost no attacks yesterday, or very little. Now, let's see what happens in the couple of weeks. But in the period of run up, when you might expect the insurgents to try to disrupt the elections they were either unable or unwilling to do so.

So this maybe, kind of a tipping point in that direction. And I emphasize "may". As you know, I think we need to leave the level of troops we have there. And I think that it is a mistake to start to drawing down prematurely.

But I am guardedly optimistic and the Sunni turn-out yesterday was also an important step forward. Now, we know how critical the formation of the government, who holds the individual positions, particularly, the interior and defense are concerned. Those are all obstacles we face.

KAGAN: We have been listening in at the White House, a group of bipartisan senators, including Senator John McCain, you see there, and Senator Joe Lieberman standing behind him, have been at the White House, meeting with President Bush today on different national security measures, including what is happening in Iraq, and update on the troops there, and a plan the administration may have going forward in Iraq.

As we do that, and listen in, let's go back to Capitol Hill, where these senators will be going back themselves, to our Andrea Koppel.

Andrea, we interrupted you in it middle of your fine report. We went live to hear what they had to say.

KOPPEL: I was going to say, it is a incredibly busy day today on Capitol Hill.

In fact, just leading off on what Senator McCain was saying there, about not wanting to bring back American troops, in his words, prematurely. Republicans expected to introduce yet another resolution on the floor of the Senate today, calling for the troops not to be withdrawn prematurely. So we can expect that.

But what we are looking at this hour is a vote that is expected to happen at the bottom of the hour, when Republicans are going to try to cut off debate on the highly controversial Patriot Act, trying to force Democrats and some Republicans' hands. But in order to do so, they're going to 60 votes. That really is the question, whether or not they have it.

Bill Frist, the majority leader says he does. Some Democrats, Russ Feingold, of Wisconsin, and some Republicans have been saying that one compromise might be if they can't reach a decision today -- because remember the Patriot Act expires December 31st, and the Senate and the House are supposed to go out on recess -- they would get perhaps get a three-month extension. Well, just a short time ago, on the floor of the Senator, we heard Bill Frist saying absolutely not, he drew a line in the sand. This is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST, (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: I absolutely oppose an short-term extension of the Patriot Act. The House of Representatives opposes such an extension. And the president will not sign such an extension.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: So, what would happen then? That would meant The Patriot Act, effectively would expire. We heard the House Speaker Denny Hastert earlier this week say if that happens, he plans to say that it is all because of Democratic obstructionism.

Now, what complicates matters here, Daryn, is you have Republicans that have joined Russ Feingold, and some of the others, Republicans like Chuck Hagle of Nebraska, like John Sununu of New Hampshire, Larry Craig of Idaho, and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. They signed a letter along with five Democrats, a dear colleague letter, saying their needed to be certain revisions to the Patriot Act before they could support the reauthorization. So you can see that this is shaping up to be quite a debate when it starts at the bottom of the hour, Daryn.

KAGAN: Andrea Koppel, live on Capitol Hill. Andrea, thank you.

Still to come this hour, a wallop of wintry weather leaves thousands without power. It also makes for a treacherous drive on many of the nation's roads -- which, of course, has nothing to do with those pictures. But Bonnie Schneider will be along with your severe weather forecast.

Plus, it is an era of American history that we often recall in somber images of black and white. But wait till you see, what you're going to see. A new exhibit of pictures that were taken in color. Now, these haven't been colorized, they were taken in color, Depression and pre-war era pictures, fascinating. You will be able to take a look at them online. Talking about that, just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Want to get back to this developing story out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, prosecutors there have decided to go for the death penalty against David Ludwig, the 18 year-old who is accused of killing the two parents of his 14-year-old girlfriend, the parents of Kara Borden. He is accused killing Michael and Catherine Borden on November 14. They have also tacked on sexual assault charge onto the list of charges that David Ludwig now faces.

To talk more about this and what this young man now faces, let's bring in our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, who joins me now on the phone.

Jeffrey, good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

KAGAN: Not that unusual to go for a death penalty against an 18-year-old?

TOOBIN: It is increasingly unusual. It was just earlier this year that the Supreme Court said the Constitution forbade the death penalty for anyone under 18. So, just by months, he qualifies at all.

And the trend in recent years has been not to seek the death penalty for individuals, you know, essentially teenagers, but it is constitutional, it can be done. It is a particularly horrendous case. So, in that respect, I guess it is not that surprising.

KAGAN: One of the fascinating things has been, as people try to figure out the role of the girl in this case. She is 14 years old. When we first learned of this, they issued an Amber Alert, because it wasn't clear whether she had been kidnapped. They dropped the kidnapping charges against David Ludwig because apparently she went willingly. But it looks like prosecutors are making the decision here to just make Kara Beth Borden a witness rather than another defendant?

TOOBIN: Certainly, she would not be a very sympathetic -- she would be a more sympathetic defendant. She is so young, she apparently was manipulated by the older guy. And to keep her out of the case as much as possible seems like the smartest tactical decision by prosecutors.

KAGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, on the phone. Jeff, thanks. We appreciate the quick take on that.

TOOBIN: Sure.

(WEATHER FORECAST)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Let's go to some breaking news happening right now, just out of Washington, D.C., in Montgomery County, Maryland. It's an accident involving a truck and a bus. I am told at least six people -- do we have video? We are trying to get pictures right now. There we go.

There are live pictures. WTTG, our affiliate there, just outside Washington, D.C.

A semi-tractor trailer and a bus, we're getting word that at least six people have been hurt, exact location, we are not sure on right now. Emergency crews are on the scene.

Once again, Montgomery County, Maryland; an severe accident involving a truck and a bus. At least six people hurt. Germantown, Maryland. We will have more in just a moment.

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