Return to Transcripts main page
PAULA ZAHN NOW
Children and Guns; Prosecutors to Seek Death Penalty in Pennsylvania Double Murder Case; Storm Chasers; Celebrity Breakups
Aired December 16, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Glad to have you with us tonight
A stunning double murder that made headlines all over the world -- tonight, the untold story of how it all happened.
ZAHN (voice-over): A crime of passion -- now, a teenager could face the death penalty for the cold-blooded killings of his girlfriend's parents. Prosecutors reveal shocking new details -- how a teenager love affair led to tragedy.
Tonight's "Eye Opener," riders on the storm -- you won't believe these amazing pictures of men and machines inside killer tornadoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are in it. Yes!
ZAHN: Why would anyone who went through this go back for more? Tonight, you will meet one of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got him.
ZAHN: Kids with guns. Are these children too young to be hunters?
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What did it feel like the first time that you held a gun?
DANIELLE FAECHNER, 12-YEAR-OLD HUNTER: It was kind of scary, but then you get used to it.
ZAHN: Are they carrying on a family tradition or a danger to themselves and to others?
ZAHN: And we are starting tonight with a dramatic story we have been following closely for the last month. Today, a prosecutor in Pennsylvania said he would seek the death penalty against the teenager accused of killing his girlfriend's parents, then running off with her.
The story made headlines all over the world when it broke back in November, and it set off a nationwide manhunt for the pair.
Adaora Udoji has been working on this and just filed this report on today's developments.
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only 18, police say David Ludwig was looking for a happy ending with his secret relationship with 14-year-old Kara Borden. That yearning has led to death penalty charges today.
DONALD TOTARO, LANCASTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Warwick Township Police charge defendant David Ludwig with two counts of criminal homicide.
UDOJI: Ludwig, a seemingly ordinary teenager growing up in rural Pennsylvania, a teen who created his own Web site -- among his expertise, he talks about computer, volleyball and, ominously, getting into trouble.
David and Kara were both homeschooled. She, too, had an affinity for Web sites, writing about her love of Jesus. But prosecutors say, on November 13, their affair came to a crashing halt when Kara's parents caught her sneaking home, after being out all night with Ludwig.
They immediately summoned him back to their home. Her parents could never have known they would not survive that meeting.
(on camera): Today, prosecutors released many of the details of what they say happened that day, saying Kara's parents told Ludwig -- quote -- he could no longer see Kara and he was instructed to go home.
TOTARO: He sat for five to 10 minutes, thinking in his own mind what he should do, and looking at Kara.
UDOJI (voice-over): Investigators say, within minutes, Ludwig shot Kara's father, Michael Borden, in the head, then her mother, Cathryn, killing them both.
Kara's younger sister, Katelyn, fled to a bathroom, prosecutors say. And she could hear Ludwig yelling -- quote -- "Kara, come out. I'm not going hurt you."
Ludwig then fled, Kara with him. Back then, the question was whether she had been kidnapped.
RICHARD GARIPOLI, WARWICK TOWNSHIP, PENNSYLVANIA, POLICE CHIEF: She's a victim right now, and she will stay a victim, unless I hear otherwise.
UDOJI: Prosecutors say, they learned after the couple was caught in Indiana a day later that she had gone willingly.
However, the question remained whether she had helped plot the murders. Police interviewed 10 people, pored through thousands of e- mails and other documents, and took critical statements from Ludwig. Today, prosecutors read from what they said were his words about Kara and the idea of killing her parents.
TOTARO: "I had mentioned it to her as a possibility to get away. She did not give me a yes or no on whether she thought it was a good idea. That was all my doing."
UDOJI: Officials do say, however, the teenagers had talked about running away together. Ludwig's attorney had no comment.
Next month, the young man will be back in court, starting the fight for his life.
Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.
ZAHN: And joining me now, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Always good have you on board.
Are you surprised that the prosecution's going to the death penalty?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Shocked. Astonished.
ZAHN: No, you really...
ZAHN: This guy is, like, barely 18 by a couple of days.
TOOBIN: Right. And the -- and the Supreme Court, earlier this year, said juvenile offenders -- that is, people 17 and under -- were not eligible for the death penalty. So, he is the youngest you can be eligible for the death penalty.
And, given the circumstances of this case, as awful as this crime is, I think trying to execute an 18-year-old is a very tough sell anywhere in -- in this country, especially in Pennsylvania, where they have only executed three people since 1976.
ZAHN: So, what, then, is the prosecution's strategy here?
TOOBIN: Well, I...
ZAHN: They have got reason to believe that -- that they could get a conviction that might lead to...
ZAHN: ... the execution.
TOOBIN: And -- and it's a horrible, horrible crime. Don't -- don't -- don't get me wrong. And I think, listening to the prosecutor and reading what they put out today, the premeditation, they seem to be focusing on, the fact that he sat and thought about it, and then killed these parents, I think that is -- is going to be the key factor in the prosecution strategy.
ZAHN: So, how will he be defended?
TOOBIN: Well, I think, unfortunately, Katelyn is going to be the focus of the defense.
You know, no one wants to blame the 14-year-old -- a 14-year-old for anything, but, you know, this guy's on trial for his life. And did she help him? Did she encourage him? Did she help him plan? Can he shift any of the responsibility to this child?
You know, they are going say, this is a mixed-up, terribly troubled kid, but do you want to kill him, based on these terribly emotional circumstances?
ZAHN: Is it really...
TOOBIN: Maybe they will. But...
ZAHN: But, in the legal sense, does it really make that big of a difference? Does it make the burden that much less for him if she, in fact, ended up helping him pull this off?
ZAHN: Maybe not pulling the trigger, but -- but helping him devise this plot?
TOOBIN: Well, the thing about the law in death penalty is, anything the jury thinks can mitigate, can make things somewhat less awful, can help.
And I think the fact that this may have been somewhat of a team effort -- or the defense will certainly try to portray it -- that might be enough to say, look, this kid's going to be in jail for maybe 70 years. That's good enough, not execution.
ZAHN: Well, you will keep us posted on every little winding road here.
ZAHN: Jeffrey Toobin, thanks.
In another major story, just a short while ago, the White House announced that, on Sunday, President Bush will deliver a live address to the nation from the Oval Office -- the subject, Iraq -- interesting timing, given today's revelation that, for the first three years, as part of the war on terror, the government has been eavesdropping on hundreds and maybe thousands of people's phone calls and e-mails, without getting search warrants.
On the "Security Watch" for us tonight, justice correspondent Kelli` Arena.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shortly after the September 11 attacks, government sources confirmed that President Bush issued a secret order to allow the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on people in the United States as part of terrorism investigations, a move first reported by "The New York Times," which, critics say, is illegal.
KATE MARTIN, CENTER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES: The laws couldn't be any more clear. You can only wiretap an American if you have a warrant.
ARENA: Such a warrant can be approved by a secret intelligence court, housed in the Justice Department, and the eavesdropping is usually done by the FBI.
But government sources with knowledge of the program say the president's order bypasses all that, in the interest of getting intelligence more quickly.
JEFFREY SMITH, FORMER CIA COUNSEL: The administration bears a heavy burden to prove that that was really the case. In my experience, the court was, particularly after the passage of the Patriot Act, the foreign electronic surveillance court was very responsive to requests for warrants.
ARENA: Administration officials will not confirm the change or deny it, creating an uproar on Capitol Hill.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: They tell us, trust us; we follow the law.
Give me a break.
ARENA: In a TV interview, the president said that he would not discuss ongoing intelligence operations, but he did make this point.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whatever I did to protect the American people, and I have an obligation to do so, that we will uphold the law, and decisions made are made understanding we have an obligation to protect the civil liberties of the American people.
ARENA: Government sources say the phone and e-mail communications that are being monitored by the NSA are focused entirely on those taking place between people in the United States with others overseas. Now, they point out that, if they develop information leading too a full-blown U.S. investigation, the FBI then takes the lead and warrants are sought.
ARENA: The problem is, without hearing from the administration on exactly what the order allows, we're just left with a lot of questions -- Paula.
ZAHN: So, Kelli, do you have any idea how often they did this?
ARENA: Well, according to the sources that we spoke to who have some knowledge of -- of this program, they say that as many as 500 people at any given time are being eavesdropped on here in the United States.
ZAHN: Say that again.
ARENA: As many as 500 people at any given time.
ZAHN: And the government, obviously, continues to be secretive.
And, very quickly, any defense of that at all?
ARENA: Well, intelligence officials say it could be that they're very concerned about the method of that eavesdropping being made public, which, of course, would jeopardize the capability of intelligence gathering in that area again.
ZAHN: Kelli Arena, thanks so much for the update.
ARENA: You're welcome, Paula.
ZAHN: When we come back, the debate raging over kids using guns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREED: What did it feel like the first time that you held a gun?
FAECHNER: It was kind of scary, but then you get used to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: How young is too young to let children hunt?
Also, the astonishing violence of tornadoes. Meet a man who risks his life by taking his camera inside the storm as powerful as these.
And Jessica Simpson and her ex, Nick, calling it quits. We're taking a peek inside the world of celebrity divorces and celebrity prenuptial agreements.
ZAHN: We want to warn you now that some of the pictures that you're about to see in this next story are -- can be disturbing. Hunting has been a part of the American culture from the start. And most hunters never get hurt.
But, this past fall, there have been several tragic cases of children hunting and fatally shooting other hunters. We looked into the question of children and hunting and discovered something pretty surprising. Less and less children are taking up the sport, and that has the hunting industry worried and, in fact, trying to recruit more kids to carry guns.
Here's Jonathan Freed.
FREED (voice-over): Before dawn on the plains of Montana, it's cold, and so is Danielle Faechner. She's a bit sleepy, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go right down the fence line. There's two deer standing down there.
FREED: But it doesn't matter, because Danielle is being driven by the excitement of a rite of passage. She recently turned 12 and can now hunt legally in the state, along with her father, Steve, and her 13-year-old sister, Serena.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See the deer. You see the white spot?
FREED: They are stalking deer.
(on camera): What did it feel like the first time that you held a gun?
D. FAECHNER: It was kind of scary, but then you get used to it.
FREED: Scary "Oh, my God, I have a science test that I didn't study for"?
D. FAECHNER: Different kind of scary, like knowing that that could kill something.
FREED (voice-over): The Faechner girls are serious about hunting. It provides food, lets them spend time with their family and connect to its history.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, let's take this box.
FREED: The girls use their great-grandfather's guns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you see it?
FREED: This time, it's big sister Serena who ends up making a kill...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got him.
FREED: ... and gets to pose for the trophy photo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look right over here.
FREED (on camera): There are a lot of people who, you know, their -- their biggest thing that they are waiting for is to get their driver's license. That's next, I'm guessing, for the two of you.
SERENA FAECHNER, 13-YEAR-OLD HUNTER: I want that, too, yes. It would be nice.
FREED: But if you had to choose between the two?
S. FAECHNER: I would choose hunting.
D. FAECHNER: You can't eat a car. You can eat a deer.
FREED (voice-over): The guy with the video camera is Kevin Hoyt. He's a friend of the family and a crusader for the cause of hunting.
KEVIN HOYT, THE FUTURE OF HUNTING: We're fighting a losing battle. We're in the 11th hour. And we have got to do something now, if we're even going to have a prayer of trying to save and preserve this wonderful sport.
FREED: Hoyt says hunting is in crisis because not enough families are like the Faechners, passing the sport down to their kids.
During the 1980s, about 17 million people called themselves hunters. But the hunting industry says the number of hunters in America is now dropping and that hunting could virtually vanish from America by mid-century if something isn't done to save it.
(on camera): What would be missing from society if hunting, as it's been...
HOYT: Discipline, patience, respect. There's a number of things that come from hunting. When you spend time with a kid in the woods, it's the perfect time to talk to your kids about sex or drugs or all the other important issues out there. And it's -- it's an opportunity for your kids to talk back.
FREED (voice-over): Hoyt also insists, the demise of hunting would damage the environment, because most conservation money comes from hunters through the sale of licenses. HOYT: We're the ones that are saving and protecting and restoring habitat. We're the ones transplanting endangered species and reintroducing species to -- to make sure they are here for our future.
FREED: So, he's on a cross-country mission to inspire young hunters and their parents. His tour includes classrooms.
HOYT: Why would we possibly hunt?
How about in the back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hide for clothing or something?
HOYT: The hide, sure.
FREED: In schools receptive to his message.
Kevin Hoyt may travel solo, but he's not alone in his concern. Anxious that tradition could fade away and worried about losing the economic benefits of this $20-billion-a-year sport, politically active pro-hunting groups are also seeing children as the solution to keeping hunting off the endangered species list.
RICK STORY, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES SPORTSMEN'S ALLIANCE: About half the hunting population, roughly 45 percent, are between the ages of 35 and 54. That's older than we would like it to be.
FREED: Rick Story is with the United States Sportsmen's alliance, a group that has joined with other pro-hunting organizations to fund youth recruitment drives and to push for the loosening of state laws limiting children's participation in hunting. Story says the biggest obstacle to recruitment is the 20 states that are keeping kids out of camouflage by setting minimum-age requirements, many at 12 years old.
Story calls it arbitrary.
STORY: For some children, you know, it may be 7 or 8. You know, for other children, it might be 9 or 10. But shouldn't it be a parent, and not the government, that makes that determination?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to get a big one?
JONATHAN WEICHMAN, 9-YEAR-OLD HUNTER: Yes.
FREED: Jonathan Weichman is only 9, and he's out hunting for the first time during a youth hunting weekend put on by the state of Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead there, buddy.
FREED: He's revved up and ready to go.
WEICHMAN: I like sitting here waiting to see a deer come up, and then taking the shot, and just -- it just makes me happy to see it go down.
FREED: Studies show, the younger hunters start, the more likely they are to stick with the sport.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do you take your safety off?
WEICHMAN: I'm getting ready to shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mmm-hmm.
FREED: Supporters insist it's safe.
HOYT: Ping-Pong has more injuries than hunting does.
FREED (on camera): Yes, but if an accident happens in hunting, it tends to be larger than a Ping-Pong accident, no?
HOYT: That is very true, but, because of guys like myself, the thousands of volunteer hunter education instructors spread all across the country, hunting incidents are at an all-time low right now.
PRESCOTT: Children and young adolescents lack the emotional maturity to be able make that split-second decision of when to fire a gun. These are all pretty much hunting accidents that have taken place.
FREED (voice-over): Heidi Prescott of the Humane Society of the United States argues that, if we have age limits for driver's licenses, we should have them for a sport involving firearms, and it should be at least 15 or 16 years old.
(on camera): Their argument is that younger hunters are statistically the safer hunters because of the supervision.
HEIDI PRESCOTT, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT FOR CAMPAIGNS, HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES: Even one hunting accident is one accident too many. And, already this year, there's been hunting accidents where youth were involved. So, it's -- it's not a safe sport.
FREED (voice-over): Despite predictions by anti-hunting groups that the sport is doomed, no matter what's done to try to save it, the hunting industry is determined to encourage the next generation.
Nine-year-old Jonathan didn't bag a deer on his first day out, but he did spot a doe. He fired, but the animal escaped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good job, Peter.
FREED: Five other kids in town were successful shots, like 11- year-old Tina (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shot it with what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A .20-gauge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-gauge shotgun?
FREED: Who named her 200-pound buck Bob.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn't matter if it's big or not. It -- it just matters that you had fun and you got your first deer.
FREED: Back, in Montana, the Faechners are dining out...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chow time.
FREED: ... on their children's shooting success. They have put venison on the table. And it's food this family does not take for granted.
(on camera): Is this something that you want to pass down to your kids?
D. FAECHNER: Definitely.
S. FAECHNER: Yes, definitely.
FREED: Really? You know that already?
S. FAECHNER: Yes.
FREED (voice-over): Jonathan Freed, CNN, Havre, Montana.
ZAHN: And there's another thing to report tonight. The U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance says this week it has made some progress in three states to create youth hunting programs or ease restrictions on children hunting.
When we come back, people who do the unthinkable risk their lives by chasing tornadoes. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you're an adrenaline junkie, this is the best thing to do. It's awesome. And what better fun to do with than your son and a good friend? I mean, that's awesome.
Everybody we told, we're going on a storm-chasing trip, they're, like, are you crazy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Absolutely amazing. I am going to introduce you to this man, who literally goes inside twisters to capture film like you just saw.
See you in a minute or two.
And, a little bit later on, a man who is inspiring people and making them laugh by being very up front about his disfigurement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are in it. Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: The incredible power and fury of a deadly tornado caught on film by men on the hunt for the perfect storm.
In tonight's "Eye Opener," you are going find out what it's like to actually go inside a tornado voluntarily. My next guest is a self- taught storm chaser who has built what's basically a homemade tank, so that he can drive directly into a twister and film it coming at him head on, in some cases, over 100 miles an hour.
Sean Casey's death-defying adventures will be part of a National Geographic Channel special that airs this Sunday night. He joins me now from Los Angeles for today's "Eye Opener."
Good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
SEAN CASEY, STORM CHASER: Well, thank you.
ZAHN: So, we have seen the pictures. And it's just mind- boggling that any human being would ever want to subject themselves to that kind of power and fury, but what is it like once you have taken this spacecraft-looking thing that you have built into the center of a tornado?
CASEY: Well, we're trying to get a shot with the IMAX format of a tornado coming directly at us.
And the only way to do that is inside of what we could make. And that is this ugly-looking 14,000-pound mound of metal.
ZAHN: And what do you hear? What does it feel like there, and once you have penetrated the wall of the tornado?
CASEY: Well, we are so focused on getting that image on film that you're just keeping your mind on your job, rather than trying to appreciate, you know, this magnificent spectacle.
But there's a lot of adrenaline pumping through. There's a lot of yelling at people inside the vehicle. It's exciting.
ZAHN: Exciting, but are you ever afraid that your tank is going blow apart?
CASEY: There is that danger that, if we go into a violent tornado, we would be picked up and deposited in another county, but we chase with radar trucks with Dr. Joshua Wurman.
And, with his radar, he can tell us exactly how strong those winds are, so we know what kind of trouble we are going to be getting in to.
ZAHN: Sean, there are a lot of things you could do that -- that get the adrenaline pumped, but why do you do this in particular?
CASEY: Because I have become a tornado-holic.
I -- I can't keep away from tornadoes. So, if we're going to be out in the field actually filming them, we might as well get the shot that no one has gotten, which is a tornado coming directly at us.
ZAHN: I'm -- I'm looking at these pictures now, and I can't believe any human being would want to stare down a tornado. And I have seen a fair amount of mine, having grown up in the -- in the Midwest, but never wanted to get closer than a half-a-mile away.
So, you spend six weeks at a time in this vehicle chasing these storms. If you would, give us a -- a sense of what it's like to go inside this TIV, your little spacecraft tank there.
CASEY: Our -- our spacecraft tank, yes.
As you can see, inside, it's kind of designed around, say, a World War II Russian submarine. It's cramped. It usually gets quite smelly, because you have three men living in it for six weeks.
ZAHN: I hope you guys like each other.
CASEY: We have control -- yes. I mean, we have our moments.
ZAHN: I'm sure you do.
But how close have you ever come from having a very strong tornado lift this thing up?
There have been a couple of moments where tornadoes have been coming at us, and they have started to intensify. So, there's that moment of, do you stand your ground or do you skedaddle?
ZAHN: And what did you opt for, Sean? Did you skedaddle, or you got the picture for IMAX?
CASEY: Well, this Sunday, you will see if we skedaddled.
ZAHN: Well, that's a pretty darn good tease for the National Geographic special. The pictures are absolutely extraordinary. We hope that your tank holds up there, because it is amazing stuff.
Sean Casey, thanks for your time. Good luck to you.
CASEY: All right. Thank you.
ZAHN: And you can see more of Sean's film during "Twisted Sunday" on the National Geographic Channel, Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.
Still ahead tonight, we will move on from tornadoes to Hurricane Katrina's devastation. And would you believe a company offering tours -- yes, tours -- of the destruction in New Orleans?
But, first, maybe you have heard that Jessica and Nick are splitting up, but have you heard the bizarre secrets behind some celebrity prenuptial agreements?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE LANGLOIS, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: They will say, craziest thing I have ever drafted, probably, we have to have sex five to six times a week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Coming up next, the lengths people go to, to protect their relationships.
Stay with us.
ZAHN: Just a short while ago, CNN confirmed that Jessica Simpson filed for divorce today from Nick Lachey, citing irreconcilable differences.
Their breakup gives us a chance to take a look at what happens when the fantastically rich and famous end up in divorce court and the inevitable fights over who gets what and how much.
Here's Brooke Anderson.
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER (voice-over): They were two, cute young kids with a dream.
JESSICA SIMPSON, SINGER: We definitely anticipate having a family. My gosh, that's one of our biggest dreams in life.
ANDERSON: But that dream appears to be over for Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey. After three years of marriage, America's newlyweds are calling it quits.
And they're far from alone: Christina Applegate and Jonathan Shect, Valerie Bertinelli and Eddie Van Halen, Eddie Murphy and his ex, Nicole. They all recently announced they're going their separate ways.
(on camera): So when stars split up who gets what? According to California law, all assets earned during the marriage must be split down the middle, 50/50, regardless of possible infidelity and regardless of who brings home the bacon. But if a prenuptial agreement exists, that takes precedence over the state's divorce law.
(voice-over): Entertainment lawyer Harvey Levin has seen a lot of stars make sure that the when love fades, the bank account stays intact.
HARVEY LEVIN, ATTY & ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: A prenup basically closes the bank vault for a star who has lots and lots of money who marries another person who doesn't have a lot of money. There is a huge amount at stake with stars, especially young stars who don't have a lot of maturity and these prenups save them.
ANDERSON: But what if there is no prenup? According to Levin that means a judge and jury can do whatever they want, which is reportedly the case with Simpson and Lachey who married when Lachey's career was thriving.
LEVIN: He wanted a prenup. He was smart and said hey, you know, I want to protect my money if this doesn't work out. She was ready to sign it; he had it drafted. And we know what happened here. Her dad basically convinced her to say no to the prenup. It turns out she has made a wild amount of money since they got married and this is going come back to bite her, because Nick is now entitled to half of what she made. And that is going to be a fortune.
ANDERSON: Los Angeles divorce attorney Joe Langlois knows firsthand the power of the prenup. He represented baseball star Barry Bonds in his divorce. But according to Langlois, he's also put together agreements that go way beyond mere money.
JOE LANGLOIS, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: The craziest thing I ever drafted, probably -- "We have to have sex five to six times a week." "You can't talk to my family in a certain way." "You have to be at a certain place at a certain time." "You have to keep the house clean."
Weight clauses, I see those. The guy can't get over 180 pounds. The woman can't get over 120 pounds.
ANDERSON: While Langlois admits it's hard to enforce those kind of control clauses in court, it hasn't stopped Hollywood's A-list from buying into the power of the prenup.
PAUL STANLEY, SINGER: I think prenups are great for anybody. I think it's really important that you don't allow the courts to decide how something that they don't know how it was gotten is divided. If somebody comes into a relationship with millions and someone comes in without, then I think that's a private matter for two people to work out.
ANDERSON: Of course, there are those that still think love can conquer all.
ROB REINER, DIRECTOR: I've never had them. To me, you fall in love and you marry the person and that's it. I don't know about prenups.
ANDERSON: But 20 years of experience has shown Joe Langlois what happens when a good idea goes bad.
LANGLOIS: A bad prenuptial agreement will plant the seeds of the destruction of your own relationship. ANDERSON: Explain that for me.
LANGLOIS: An unfair prenup, one that takes advantage of the other party, will grate, will just simply grate on the disadvantaged party. And year after year that party will remember this.
ANDERSON: So what about today's celebrities? As Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes plan their wedding, as Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie bask in the glow of whatever it is they're basking in, do you think they'll stop every so often and ask, what'll we do when the dream is over?
Brooke Anderson, CNN, Hollywood.
ZAHN: Joining me now, a real expert on celebrity divorces: attorney Raoul Felder has represented some of America's most rich and famous in their breakups. In 42 years on the job, he's sued everyone from Liza Minnelli to Johnny Carson to Martin Scorcese.
RAOUL FELDER, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: And a cast of thousands, besides.
ZAHN: I know you don't take great delight in doing that. But take us back over the last couple of decades. What is the absolute nuttiest thing you've written into one of the prenups.
FELDER: Paula, there was a phase when they had what I used to call the flower child agreements. "You will be the house husband and I will do the dishes, you'll walk the dog" and so forth. Then you had "We will have sex no more than x times per month, we will definitely have sex less than x times." And then you have the animals. "You'll get the dog if we ever have a divorce," and then "We don't have to visit the in-laws" and all this stuff, and the courts hate it.
ZAHN: The courts wouldn't enforce that kind of stuff, would they?
FELDER: The courts don't enforce it, they don't want to micromanage people's lives, but yet people want to do it. The reason that I think that divorce is so expensive and so intrusive it turns you inside out that you seek a way out of it at any price even for this nutty stuff, but we're still here doing business.
ZAHN: And what do you encourage people to put in the prenuptial agreements if all of the other stuff will not be enforced by the courts to begin with?
FELDER: You put in there stuff the courts will enforce. "If we break up you get x number of dollars." "You will get support for x number of years. And if the people balk at that, you say, maybe we should have self-destruct clauses. And if they balk at that, you tell them, go to a psychiatrist. Don't go to a lawyer.
ZAHN: You're looking at these high-profile soon-to-be marriages of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise -- what are you imagining their attorneys are doing on the second date? FELDER: I mean, now the teams start coming together. The accountants, the forensic people, the career advisers, the lawyers. And it becomes a major negotiation.
ZAHN: But the truth is with Jessica Simpson, her father, her manager, never dreamed she'd have the kind of income you're talking about this year, some $45 million plus.
FELDER: I've had these situation. I don't want to mention names, but one case they signed an agreement and the guy was down and out, he was a writer and the next thing you know he had a hit movie. And you know, you don't envision these things and make bad deals and sometimes, like she did, she made a bad deal.
ZAHN: And you might not necessarily be off with a prenup agreement. In a case like a Britney Spears, or a --
FELDER: The years are usually better with a prenuptial agreement. It's the later years where you can get hurt.
ZAHN: Raoul Felder, always good to see you. Thanks for dropping by.
FELDER: Thank you, Paula.
ZAHN: Appreciate your perspective on all this. You certainly have a long one on it, and a wide perspective.
Coming up next: you're not going to believe what one tour company in New Orleans is charging people $35 to see.
ZAHN: Thanks for dropping by. Appreciate your perspective in all of this. You certainly have a long one on it and a wide perspective.
Coming up next, you are not going to believe what one tour company in New Orleans is charging people $35 to see.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom number is usually, well, hopefully it's a zero most of the time, but that's the number of people that they found dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: Yes. It kind of makes your stomach turn, doesn't it? It is a disaster tour, and you can bet a lot of people are outraged over this.
And a little bit later on I'm going to introduce you to a remarkable man born with a rare facial tumor and turned it into a source of inspiration and laughter. Stay with us.
ZAHN: Very cold and clear night in New York City tonight as we count down to the holidays.
Tonight, a lot of folks in New Orleans are looking past Christmas and New Years to next February and Mardi Gras. The city was nearly destroyed by Hurricane Katrina and is working very hard to get back in stride with a scaled-down version of that carnival.
Though when visitors get there they're going to find one tour that had all of us shake our heads.
We sent Susan Roesgen to New Orleans to answer a question we ask from time to time, what were they thinking? .
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Before the hurricane, this is the New Orleans that millions of tourists came to see. Gray Line Tours showed New Orleans at its best, but now the same visitors who used to ooh and ahh over the city's stately mansions can see the ghostly neighborhoods left in Katrina's wake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom number is usually -- well, hopefully it's a zero most of the time because that's the number of people that they found dead.
ROESGEN: It's called Hurricane Katrina, America's Greatest Disaster Tour. It won't start until January, but CNN got the first preview on the trial run. It's a three-hour bus excursion past landmarks now notorious because of the hurricane. The Superdome, a sweltering shelter for 30,000 people. Lakeview, a neighborhood swamped by floodwaters for weeks and New Orleans own version of ground zero. The break in the levee at the 17th street canal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So think about this. People when there is a storm in the Gulf of Mexico here in New Orleans and we are below sea level to start off with, we're going to get water slammed into the city from the river, of course, coming up and also from the lake.
ROESGEN: Gray Line hopes to tap into the national curiosity about what happened here, but people who own homes along the tour, people like Artie Folse, have a message for gawkers. Keep out.
ARTIE FOLSE, HOMEOWNER: I think it's ridiculous. I mean, they're doing tours on other people's misery. We just wish they'd stay out of neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you can see, this was and it's kind of hard to see, this was a really pretty neighborhood.
ROESGEN: The company says the tours will be educational, but Larry Maynard, fixing up his mother's house in Lakeview, doesn't buy it.
LARRY MAYNARD, HOMEOWNER: Exploitation of people's tragedy for profit though is definitely not the way to go. You really shouldn't do it. I hope somebody in Baton Rouge or somebody puts their foot down and really, you know, realizes what's going on here with this.
ROESGEN: The company says the tours will cost $35 with three dollars of each ticket earmarked for Katrina relief. To the city's tourism industry, all, but knocked out by Katrina, any tourism is welcome. Yet Gray Line Company owner Greg Hoffman, who lost his own home in Lakeview, is taking some heat from the mayor.
(on-camera): You know, the mayor today on the radio-- I don't know if you heard his comments, but he calls what you're doing starting the tour odd and opportunistic. What do you say to that?
GREG HOFFMAN, OWNER, GRAY LINE TOURS: Well, I wish he'd read the press release, and I hope he'll come on the tour before we get started on January 4th, because people that initially hear about the tour, they have that general reaction, but the tour, like I say, is an educational process.
It was just like after 9/11, people wanted to go to the site. They wanted to see the devastation at the Twin Towers. It's the same mindset. People are going want to come down here and see what the devastation is like.
ROESGEN: A new kind of attraction for a new New Orleans.
Susan Roesgen, CNN, New Orleans.
ZAHN: And then there's this, the general manager of Gray Line Tours, Gregory Hoffman says many of his employees lost their own homes in the flood. He also says passengers on the disaster tour will not be allowed to get off the bus to take any pictures.
Coming up next, could you get up on the stage and do what this man does?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've heard of a bad hair day. I'm having a bad face day, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: A remarkable story about a remarkable man who is using what many may see as a defect to teach us all a very important lesson.
ZAHN: A lot of you are still talking about that amazing face transplant that made medical history late last month. Shortly after that we introduced you to David Roche, a man whose deformed face actually led him to become a comedian and motivational speaker.
You might remember that he told us he'd never want a new face. Now, a lot of you wanted to know more about David.
So we sent Ted Rowlands to find out how he makes people, especially kids, go from stunned silence to laughter. It's a real lesson in life. Just watch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened to your face?
DAVID ROCHE, COMEDIAN: Thank you. I thought you'd never ask.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): These students came to see David Roche's face. He doesn't mind showing it to them or talking about it. In fact, David makes his living off his face as a stand-up comedian.
ROCHE: You've heard of a bad hair day. I'm having a bad face day, OK?
ROWLANDS: Roche, travels the world, getting up in front of crowds making people laugh. In the process, he says, people see past his face.
ROCHE: Just like any middle-aged man's dream, I tell the same stories all of the time. People applaud. They pay me money and they tell me I'm great.
They see that someone who looks totally different, unique, disfigured, if you will, is normal in the sense of like I carry myself like a normal human being.
I want you to stare at my face today.
ROWLANDS: Roche also makes time to talk to children like these sixth graders hoping to change the way they see people that are different. Since birth, Roche has lived with a rare, noncancerous tumor on the left side of his face.
ROCHE: The tumor that you see here are my own blood vessels, my own veins all swollen and tangled and gorged and mixed together that bulge out.
ROWLANDS: At first, as you can see in the expressions of the children, David's appearance be disturbing, but he says a few minutes is all it takes for most people to get over it.
ROCHE: They stare. They double take. You know, the look of astonishment. The, you know, looking away. All those sort of things, but, you know what? It's normal. I look at other people that way, too. And I used to think that was prejudice, but it's not.
That first ten minutes is free time. You get to stare. It's what happens after that when it's time to take the second look as Marlena says.
ROWLANDS: Marlena is David's wife, who he says helped him go from a computer programmer that never talked about his face, to a performer. She occasional joins David on stage, talking about falling in love with the man she initially had trouble looking at.
MARLENA BLAVIN, WIFE OF DAVID ROCHE: That first look is not what counts. I needed time to adjust to David's face and how he looked.
ROCHE: That's a great lesson to learn for someone like me because I used to have this story that everybody thinks I'm weird. The truth is, they don't. They just need to stare a little bit.
If you have false teeth, here's a tip. Don't ever take them out for a child who's under age 6.
ROWLANDS: David's talent has allowed him to become a full-time comedian. He recently did a holiday show with a friend who is also disfigured in his hometown of Mill Valley, California. Over the past 15 years he's performed around the United States, including at the White House and in Australia, Russia and other countries.
ROCHE: I'm not scared because I belong to a gang. There's Chucky, there's Freddy Kruger, there's the Phantom of the Opera, there's Igor, Frankenstein. Those are my home boys.
ROWLANDS: David says he loves to make people laugh and knows that by doing so he can change what people think of him and hopefully others who are disfigured.
ROCHE: It's easy to look at the face as the locus of the human persona, but it's not. It's the soul. It's whatever you want to call that part inside, the spirit, the self.
Thank you. I'm David Roche. Thank you.
ROWLANDS: After less than an hour of listening and looking at David, the sixth graders left with smiles. They seemed to like what they came here to see.
ROCHE: Bye. Bye. Thanks a lot.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Mill Valley, California.
ZAHN: And an effective teacher for all of us. One more thing when David started dating his wife Marlena, his face was never even discussed. Neither of them dared talk about it for about six months.
A sad note from the entertainment world tonight, Emmy award- winning actor John Spencer has died. He played the president's chief of staff and this season the vice presidential candidate on The West Wing. Spencer's publicist says the actor died at a Los Angeles hospital today after suffering a heart attack just four days before his birthday.
Besides West Wing, Spencer appeared in more than 40 movies and TV series, including L.A. Law. John Spencer dead tonight at the age of 58. We'll be right back.
ZAHN: Beautiful night out there at the Wollman Skating Rink in the heart of New York City and our glorious Central Park. And it looks like this pretty much up until 11:00 or midnight every night.
And now you got to do a little work on this Friday night. We want to give you chance to tell us what you thought about some of the stories you saw during our hour tonight.
So beginning next week were are bringing back our "Hey Paula" segment. You can email us at email@example.com or leave a very nice, respectful voice mail at 1-877-PAULA-USA and every night we'll share some of your thoughts at the end of the show. No, they can be humorous. We love humor here.
That wraps it up for all of us here tonight. We really appreciate you joining us.
We'll be back same time, same place on Monday night. Just a reminder to stay with CNN for live coverage of the president's address to the nation on Sunday. Please join Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM starting at 8:00 p.m. Sunday night.
Again, thanks for dropping by here tonight. "Larry King Live" starts right now. Have a great weekend.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com