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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Miami Seaplane Crash; Bush Defends Wiretaps
Aired December 19, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, a plane crash off of Miami Beach. Everyone on board is killed. We'll go live to Miami.
Plus, a showdown in Washington. President Bush and Democrats clash over the president's anti-terror powers.
And new concerns about drug safety. How smugglers are trying to cash in on our fears about the deadly bird flu.
We begin tonight with the crash of a seaplane off of Miami Beach. All 19 people on board were killed. Now, this plane had just taken off on a flight to the Bahamas.
And John Zarrella is in Miami, and he'll be joining us in just a moment.
All right. We'll have a little bit more on the developing story later on in the broadcast as the news comes in. We'll be joined by John Zarrella in Miami.
And he joins us right now.
John, what's the latest?
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, the latest is that we are being told that 19 people on board that plane, 17 passengers, two crew members. And at this point we are being told that all of those people have apparently lost their lives in the crash.
It is a seaplane, Chalks Airways, which flies out of what's known as Watson Island. People that are familiar with the Miami area may know that that is by Government Cut, where many of the cruise ships, the Miami cruise ships leave from. And this seaplane was taking off at about 2:30 this afternoon from Watson Island, and as it was ascending, eyewitnesses -- and again, just eyewitnesses -- saying that something happened to the plane, perhaps some sort of an explosion they are saying, but way too early to guestimate on what exactly occurred.
But the plane did plunge back into the waters off of -- off of what is known as Government Cut, and rescue divers went into the water, Metro Dade rescue divers went in, and immediately, as quickly as they could, responding with the Coast Guard, tried to get the people out of that -- out of that plane. But again, the word we have this evening is that all 19 people on board Chalks Flight 101 did die. And Kitty, that flight -- Chalks has been operating since 1919 in one name or another. And the Chalks officials out of their headquarters in Ft. Lauderdale said that this was the first time in the history of Chalks Airways that they had any passenger fatalities.
So, again, operations continuing down at the area by the port of Miami, continuing the recovery efforts. And, of course, we're awaiting the arrival of the National transportation Safety Board to begin the investigation -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: John, what's the body of water like that it landed in? What's the traffic there?
ZARRELLA: Well, the problem, of course, is that it's heavily traveled. It's the area where all of the cruise ships literally come in and out of. So it's fairly deep water because of the depth that they have to have for the cruise ships to come in and out.
The Coast Guard did divert some cruise ships today, is what we are told, to try and preserve the accident scene so that they can get in there and recover the plane. But again, it is not so terribly deep. The divers were able to get to the scene, but unfortunately too late. But it is a heavily traveled area where all of these -- these mega cruise ships come in and out of -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: John, what was the destination of this craft, and what were the weather conditions like at the time?
ZARRELLA: Well, it was going to Bimini in the Bahamas. And again, that -- Chalks flies to many of the Bahamian islands, particularly some of the islands that, you know, the major carriers don't get to. And the weather was overcast for most all of the day today. Very, very -- it looked like it was a very low ceiling, almost a fog over much of Miami and in Broward County today.
But it certainly wasn't what you would call -- there was no severe weather in the area, no thunderstorms. Just a very low ceiling, very foggy conditions here in Miami.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much. John Zarrella. Thanks very much, John.
We now have some information from a press conference that was held in Miami by the fire chief. This is just a short time ago. Let's take a listen and see what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLOYD JORDAN, MIAMI BEACH FIRE CHIEF: Two of our ocean rescue lifeguards, they were on duty. What they witnessed was a plane heading out. They witnessed a plane with a lot of smoke coming from the engines. And at some point, very briefly, there was what they believed to be an explosion, what appeared to be an explosion. One wing they thought might have came off, and then the plane headed straight down into the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: The National Transportation Safety Board has sent a team to investigate this. But joining me now on the phone is Lieutenant Commander Chris O'Neil. He's with the U.S. Coast Guard.
Commander O'Neil, what can you tell us about the crash and also the search and rescue operation?
LT. COMMANDER CHRIS O'NEIL, U.S. COAST GUARD: Well, what I can tell you is that the Coast Guard responded to the crash of the aircraft at approximately 2:30 p.m. today. We sent a 27-foot rescue boat, a 41-foot rescue boat, the Coast Guard Cutter Chinook and an HH- 65 Dolphin helicopter from the air station in Miami.
We understand that there were 20 people aboard the aircraft, and that 19 bodies have been recovered thus far. At this time, we're evaluating the safety of continuing search operations now that darkness has fallen, and we'll also begin to make plans for the transition from search and rescue to recovery operations when that time becomes appropriate.
PILGRIM: What agencies are you joined by in this effort?
O'NEIL: There were a number of local response agencies. Florida Wildlife Conservation had eight boats with 17 personnel on scene. Miami-Dade Fire Rescue had a boat on scene. Miami Beach Police, a number of other response agencies were there, as well as some good Samaritans, I believe.
PILGRIM: I understand that Chalks Ocean Airways flies between Miami and the Bahamas, they use planes that land and take off from the water. Tell us a little bit about the difficulties in that.
O'NEIL: I really couldn't speak to that. I'm not an aviation expert.
I do know that it's just part of the traffic that occurs within the Miami area. You have a large number of cruise ships that operate out of Government Cut. This operation apparently has been in Miami for quite some time.
These aircraft follow the same rules, the road of rules of navigation for waterways as vessels do. And that's really all I can tell you about that particular aircraft.
PILGRIM: What were the sea conditions like at the time? And do you think they may have contributed to this crash?
O'NEIL: I was not on scene, so I don't know the exact sea state at the time. And it would be too early for anyone to speculate as to any of the contributing factors to this accident.
PILGRIM: Thank you very much for the information that you have given us, Lieutenant Commander Chris O'Neil. Thank you, sir, and good luck with your efforts.
We'll have more on the developing story later in the broadcast as the news comes in, and we'll bring it to you as soon as we get it.
In Washington today, President Bush strongly defended a secret government wiretap program on Americans. Now, the president declared he authorized the program to spy on terrorist suspects, but critics say the program is unconstitutional and infringes on Americans' civil rights.
Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, Democrats are accusing the president of actually breaking the law. Republicans are reserving judgment at this time, but they are calling for congressional hearings.
In the meantime, the president, of course, is focusing on who actually leaked news of this top secret spying program.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice over): President Bush defended his top secret domestic wiretapping program, insisting that eavesdropping on callers in the U.S. to possible terrorists overseas is perfectly legal.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I swore to uphold the laws. Do I have the legal authority to do this? And the answer is, absolutely.
MALVEAUX: Shortly after the September 11th attacks, the president said he green-lighted a government program to wiretap calls from within the United States of suspected terrorists without obtaining a warrant from a special court as required by law. The president says going through the normal channels to get permission for wiretapping under some circumstances is too slow.
BUSH: To save American lives, we must be able to act fast and to detect these conversations so we can prevent new attacks.
MALVEAUX: The president says as commander in chief during wartime, both the U.S. Constitution and Congress' authorization to go after al Qaeda give him the authority to bypass normal channels. But some constitutional scholars say the president is on shaky legal ground.
THOMAS GOLDSTEIN, SUPREME COURT LEGAL ANALYST: The president is on thin legal ice. No one knows for sure whether this was constitutional, but the Supreme Court has said that the president actually doesn't have the power to order domestic surveillance when you would ordinarily have to go a court under the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution which protects the right to privacy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: So, Kitty, really the big question here is, of course, what happens legally next? What happens here? And that really depends on whether or not there is somebody who comes forward, perhaps had their conversation wiretapped, or perhaps eavesdropping, listened to, and they come forward and complain against the government. Because there is no such list that is being made public of those people, it is very unlikely that that would move forward -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much. Suzanne Malveaux.
Well, Democrats today blasted President Bush and stepped up their calls for hearings on the spying program. One Democrat, the senator, Russ Feingold, even suggested a special prosecutor might be required.
Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this warrantless eavesdropping program is not authorized by the Patriot Act. A secret presidential order based on secret legal opinions by the same Justice Department lawyers, the same ones who argued secretly that the president can order the use of torture!
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist fell eight votes short of cutting off the filibuster, which means 16 key provisions of the Patriot Act will expire at the end of the month. The lead Republican trying to save the provisions said "The New York Times" story tipped the balance.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Very, very problemsome, if not devastating.
HENRY: One Democrat suggested the story was the deciding factor for him.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: But I went to bed, as I said, undecided. But today's revelation that the government listened in on thousands of phone conversations without getting a warrant is shocking.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: And Kitty, today, Democrats were really upset, saying that in fact when Attorney General Alberto Gonzales came out and basically suggested this morning on CNN and other networks that, in fact, the president had gotten the authority from Congress shortly after 9/11 to go forward with this domestic spying program, Democrats like Russ Feingold, as you mentioned, insisted over and over that this was not the case.
In fact, they also say that when they were -- the small number of lawmakers who were briefed about this program in recent years were told very limited details. They were not asked whether or not they were signing off on it. And, in fact, in a very dramatic development tonight, Democratic senator Jay Rockefeller has just put out a two- page handwritten letter, in fact, that he sent to Vice President Cheney on July 17, 2003. That's the day that Rockefeller was briefed, in fact, by the vice president about this domestic spying program.
Rockefeller says he's releasing the letter now because he expressed concerns in that letter about the program, and he believes that the White House over the last few days has been misrepresenting the facts about what lawmakers were told. And he's demanding a full investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Ed Henry.
Still to come, Mexico's president interferes in our national debate about securing our porous borders.
Plus, how drug smugglers are taking advantage of our worries about the deadly bird flu.
And tens of thousands of middle class Americans will be affected by massive federal spending cuts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The House of Representatives passed historic legislation late Friday that would for the first time ever force a major illegal alien crackdown in this country. Now, the passage of this bill is a major victory for Capitol Hill border security advocates who have been fighting for years to win new powers to deal with the crisis.
The new bill forces employers to conduct a complete electronic background check on new employees. It imposes fines as much $25,000 for employers caught hiring an illegal alien.
And the bill also puts an end to so-called catch and release programs. It requires illegal aliens to be held in detention until they're deported.
Now, it also approves the construction of a security fence along a 700-mile stretch of the U.S.-Mexican border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Clearly, this is the most comprehensive enforcement bill, Congress, either House, has ever passed. Now the question is will it be funded, and will the president, this one and subsequent presidents, because it's going to take a long time to implement, will they actually implement it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Congressmen opposed to this bill support a temporary guest worker program, and critics call that a virtual amnesty program for illegal aliens. Guest worker language did not make it into the final version of the bill. It is, however, a centerpiece of border security bills that will be debated in the Senate next year.
Well, as the illegal alien debate heads to the Senate, Mexican politicians are crying foul. They don't like the prospects of a border security crackdown one bit.
Casey Wian reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A growing number of Mexican leaders are now denouncing U.S. border security efforts, with some drawing comparisons to the Cold War and even the Holocaust. An elected official in the border city of Juarez says the United States asked for the fall of the Berlin Wall, and now they are covering the border with walls.
And a spokesman for the Catholic Church of Juarez labels the Sensenbrenner bill a triumph of the ideals of Hitler. He also calls the effort racist and a grave violation of human rights.
Mexican President Vicente Fox also criticized the border security bill in a speech to relatives of Mexican migrants Sunday.
VICENTE FOX, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It's a very bad sign which does not speak well of a country that is proud of being democratic, proud of being a country of immigrants.
WIAN: Fox failed to acknowledge his government's role in the border security crisis.
IRA MEHLMAN, FED. FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: President Fox is presiding over a failed administration in Mexico, he has failed to solve the economic, social and political problems in Mexico, and he's come to expect that the United States is forever going to take all of his excess population into this country.
WIAN: Meanwhile, Mexico's National Human Rights Commission claimed U.S. border security measures have directly or indirectly caused the death of more than 3,500 Mexicans during the past 11 years.
Though his tone was different, President Bush also indirectly criticized the Sensenbrenner bill because it did not include his pet idea: a guest worker program.
BUSH: We must pass comprehensive immigration reform that protects our borders, strengthens enforcement, and creates a new temporary worker program that relieves pressure on the border but rejects amnesty.
WIAN: The president failed to respond to the outrageous claims of Mexican officials. The border security bill now moves to the United States Senate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Senators will now have to decide if they want to side with the majority of the American public that favors strict border security or with those in Mexico and the United States who seem favor the status quo -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much. Casey Wian. Thanks, Casey. Still ahead, new concerns about dangerous, out-of-control imports from communist China, fake Tamiflu, that could be dangerous to your health. We'll have a special report next.
Plus, is the United States fit to be untied? I'll speak to the author of a new book who says tensions in the U.S. could lead it a national breakup.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Tonight, a new scam involving a critical drug in the fight against the deadly bird flu. Federal agents have seized more than 50 shipments of fake Tamiflu that were sent to this country.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Federal officials don't know who sent these counterfeit doses of Tamiflu, and they don't know where they came from. Only that the instructions on the box are written in Chinese.
Officials say none of the seized fake drugs were destined to doctors or hospitals, only individuals. More than 50 shipments were seized. Each containing between 10 and 50 pills. All seizures have been in the San Francisco area.
These are the first seizures of the counterfeit Tamiflu, but not the first time that a drug has been counterfeited. According to the World Health Organization, counterfeit drugs are a $32 billion a year headache for drugmakers. And WHO says that could grow to a $75 billion monster by 2010.
Roche, the maker of Tamiflu, issued a statement grateful that the fake Tamiflu did not reach consumers.
The tip-off? In these cases the boxes say they contain a generic Tamiflu. There is no generic version of Tamiflu available.
What exactly is in the vials is still not clear. The Food and Drug Administration reports that they contain some Vitamin C and seem completely harmless. Further tests are being done.
This is not the first fake flu vaccine seized by the government. Just last year, Immigration and Customs Enforcement seized 810 phony doses of flu vaccine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now, federal officials say that given the public anxiety over avian flu, it should come as no surprise that are people ready to sell anything to anyone at any price, Kitty, in order to make a profit off of the public panic.
PILGRIM: It's just incomprehensible. Thanks very much. Bill Tucker.
Well, a new poll suggests just how concerned most Americans are about the rise of China and its impact in our country. A CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll found almost two-thirds of American, 64 percent, say China poses an economic threat to the United States.
Turning now to a new study of American teenagers and drug abuse. It finds fewer teenagers are smoking, but more of them are abusing prescription drugs.
The National Institute on Drug Abuse says smoking fell by 2 percent among 8th graders, by almost 3 percent among 12th graders. But the report warns more 12th graders are taking prescription drugs like OxyContin and Vicodin for non-medical reasons.
Still ahead, President Bush defends government eavesdropping on the American people. I'll talk with three leading analysts next.
And what the United States Congress was doing while you were sleeping, New budget cuts aimed at the heart of our nation's middle class. We'll have a special report ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: More now on President Bush's determined defense of a secret government program to spy on American citizens.
I'm joined now by John Fund, who's a columnist for "The Wall Street Journal; Jeff Greenfield, our senior analyst; and CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
And thanks for being here.
Let's start with the press conference today with President Bush.
John, why don't you start. What was your impression of that? We've had a flurry of appearances by President Bush. How do you assess this?
JOHN FUND, COLUMNIST, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": The salesman in chief. He's come swinging out of the box after a long time of basically not saying much about Iraq. And the polls show -- the ABC polls show his approval rating up to 47 percent. That, plus the Iraqi election, worked for him.
He also showed a little bit of a humble side, mistakes were made, I take responsibility, and a little bit less of the arrogant Texas cowboy that some people see in him.
PILGRIM: Definite shift in tone. The polls are shifting a little bit, too, but then you had a successful election in Iraq, Jeff.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Yes. And I think that had probably more to do with it.
I just keep -- first of all, you know how I feel about these endless polls. They're pulling a plant out every hour to see if the roots are going. It's just insane, and we bear a lot of responsibility for that.
Having said that, you know, what happens in Iraq is going to determine how people feel about Iraq. There's a shock.
I do think that part of this -- and John is exactly right about this -- is a reaction to the idea that was on "Newsweek's" cover last week of Bush in a bubble. And I think that was getting to White House. That was hurting Bush. And the idea he went to not friendly forums, like the Council on Foreign Relations, took hostile questions, went to a press conference, I think it's a way of him saying, along with the, yeah, you know what, we didn't do everything right, I'm not in the bubble, I hear what people are saying, we respond, and that's probably a good thing.
PILGRIM: These were not sweeping speeches. These were speeches that were targeted right at the criticisms and addressed them.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: That's right. And he went defending this now controversial NSA policy. But to me the most interesting part of this NSA controversy that started is that you have the Democrats for the first time since September 11th attacking the president about national security.
They seem to think, and I don't know if they're right, that the issue of protecting individual rights will trump the issue of we're protecting you from terrorism. I've been shocked at how aggressive the Democrats have come out on this, because this is an issue that has been right into the president's wheelhouse for a long time.
FUND: Especially because we don't know a whole lot about this. We do know that Congress was briefed. We don't know quite how much they were briefed. We know Harry Reid was briefed.
Also, during the Clinton administration there was a program called Echelon, which is the NSA scooping up all the electronic communications in the country. Whether or not they were monitoring people at that time is a separate issue.
I think it's interesting the Democrats are attacking because people do care about civil liberties. I'm interested that they're attacking before all the facts are in.
PILGRIM: And it certainly seems like a clear stand against the president on terror, a fairly risky move given that any day there could be another attack.
GREENFIELD: Well, it has often been said about the Democratic Party that when they form a firing squad, they form a circle. And it may have been that -- to be blunt about it, a lot of the Democratic Party leadership has been tone deaf for years about so many things that they've looked at those poll numbers that I think are often misleading, and say, hey, he's in trouble, we can hit him, and they may have chosen the wrong target. I think the other side of this is, I want to see what the libertarian conservatives have to say about this once the facts are in. Because if it's just partisan, I think the Democrats are hurt. But if you get those consistent principal conservatives who have been suspicious of the president as a big government conservative for a while, and they define this as a national security -- not national security, but big brother, that's going to hurt the president.
(CROSSTALK)
FUND: Watch John Sununu from New Hampshire.
TOOBIN: Right. Well, on the Patriot Act...
FUND: When he gets the...
TOOBIN: I mean, it was unified Democratic opposition to the president, but you did have a few libertarian conservatives like John Sununu of New Hampshire, Larry Craig of Idaho, people who really just don't like big government, including when the government says, as the government always says, we're here to help.
PILGRIM: Well, does this put the Democrats and people against the Patriot Act in a bad position? Because President Bush today, in the press conference, called on them to pass it. So it's a hard position to...
TOOBIN: ... I don't know. I mean, they seem to think that they're in good shape here. And they feel like that this national security -- the domestic spying controversy helps them. I don't know if it does or not.
FUND: We're going have a confrontation, because the Senate leadership decided today they're not going to seek a 90-day extension of the Patriot Act. It will expire on December 31st unless the Senate votes it out. And that will be a great political battle in terms of blame shifting.
PILGRIM: Let me sort out one thing. This whole thing about being fast on our feet with this NSA spying thing. There was much discussion of a retroactive warrant. Sort that out for me.
TOOBIN: That's why I think this one argument that the Bush administration's making just doesn't hold any water at all. Because they're making a legitimate point. In a world of cell phones and BlackBerry's, you can't wait even an hour to get a warrant from this special court, this FISA court.
But the law has a provision that says afterwards, after you've gotten attacked, then you can go get the warrant. So I don't see why the speed argument helps them at all.
GREENFIELD: There's another argument. I thought the diciest part of what the president was claiming today was he said, "I have authority under the use of force resolution that the Congress passed," which was back in 2002 saying, "Yes, he can use force to get rid of Saddam."
That's apples and bowling balls, it's not even apples and oranges. Because what he's doing is a much more sweeping effort to find out information across the board on possible terrorist attacks and it may have no connection with Iraq.
So everybody's got to sort this out, and you know, telling people to wait in the facts are in, in the current atmosphere of politics in Washington is like the King Canute saying, "Could you hold back the tide, a little?"
FUND: But I bet the public does wait until the facts come in. That's the most important thing.
TOOBIN: But also, looking ahead on this story, it's going to be very interesting to see if it's ever tested by any court, because the way our laws work, the only person who could probably challenge this surveillance is someone who is subject to it. But virtually -- I don't think anyone who's subject to it knows that they were subject to it.
So I don't think it's ever going to be dealt with in a court. It's going to be just in the political realm.
GREENFIELD: It just quickly ought to be said that if you're looking for an optimistic note -- if you compare the reaction to this to the past use or abuse of presidential power in wartime, Lincoln suspending habeas corpus, the internment of the Japanese -- civil liberties is in much better shape in the broad strokes than it has been, I think, in a very long time.
Because you can actually argue with the president on this, and you may suffer politically, but compared to other times or the Cold War times, you can you do this and get an argument, rather than just being called a traitor or soft on al Qaedaism or whatever they say.
FUND: And there are going to be...
TOOBIN: ... What a possible note for the holiday...
PILGRIM: ... A ray of sunshine.
GREENFIELD: It's a joyful holiday or Christmas season.
FUND: The public stands.
PILGRIM: Gentlemen, I am so much more reassured. John Fund, Jeff Toobin, Jeff Greenfield, thank you.
And that brings us to our poll tonight: Which do you believe is the most critical issue for President Bush and Congress to address? Broken borders, war on terrorism, economy, or Iraq. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com, we'll bring the results a little bit later in the broadcast.
And still to come, the war on the middle class plans to slash billions of dollars from critical programs. We'll have a special report and we'll be joined by one lawmaker who's blasting the plan.
And then the untied states of America: How the United States might be torn apart in 50 years. The author of a new book will join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now tonight, the Senate could soon pass almost $40 billion in spending cuts for federal programs, including Medicare and education. The House passed the measure in a close vote last night. Critics say the bill is just the latest assault on the ongoing war on our country's middle class. Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the wee hours of the morning, the House of Representatives approved sweeping legislation that will cut $40 billion in spending.
REP. JIM NUSSLE (R-IA), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE BUDGET COMMITTEE: We have a plan. It's reforming government, it's reducing the deficit and we need to pass that plan.
SYLVESTER: The 770-page bill passed by a slim margin. Six votes. Lawmakers had only four hours to see the final version before having to make their decision. Representative Sandy Levin calls the end result atrocious.
REP. SANDY LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Essentially what has happened here, in the middle of the night or early morning, is a whack at middle-class families as well as lower income families.
SYLVESTER: Student aid cut, $13 billion over five years. Students will have to pay higher interest on loans at a time of rising college tuition.
$11 billion in gross cuts in Medicare and Medicaid over five years. The elderly and poor will face higher co-payments to go to the doctor and fewer will be eligible for long-term care.
Child support enforcement and collections are estimated to be reduced $8 billion over the next decade. The money that is saved by reducing services to the middle class -- where is it going? Critics say it's being channeled by Congress to the rich in the form of tax breaks.
BOB GREENSTEIN, CENTER OF BUDGET AND POLICY PRIORITIES: They will, when they get back from their Christmas recess, likely pass additional tax cuts and tax-cut extensions. The bulk of the benefits of which again go to people at the very high end of the income scale.
SYLVESTER: The Senate now has to approve the proposal. The vote is expected to be even closer there than in the House. If it passes, many families could find themselves as one lawmaker put it, scrooged.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SYLVESTER: And the vote in the Senate is expected tomorrow morning. And it could be so close that it ends up being a tie. In that case, Vice President Dick Cheney could be called in to cast the final vote. Kitty?
PILGRIM: Unbelievable. Thanks very much, Lisa Sylvester.
Well my next guest says the spending cuts make Scrooge look like a philanthropist. Congressman Chet Edwards is a Democrat from Texas. He's a member of both the Budget and Appropriations Committee. And he joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. And thanks for being with us.
First of all, what is your assessment on it getting through?
REP. CHET EDWARDS, (D), TEXAS: Well I think it will probably pass, but it's bad news for middle-class families whose sons and daughters are going to college.
And I find it unbelievable that we have American servicemen and women in Iraq fighting today. This bill will actually increase the college costs for their sons and daughters by five to 10 to $20,000. It's a mean-spirited budget that just continues the same old policies.
These aren't reform policies and they don't reduce the deficit. But the Republican Budget Act increases the national debt.
PILGRIM: Yes, students, $13 billion taken away from students. It's atrocious. A 770-page bill, as Lisa just reported. Four hours to look at it. Is this business as usual or what?
EDWARDS: Well, it ought to be different than this. This has been business as usual. It doesn't make sense to pass multibillion and trillion dollar budgets in the middle of the morning when nobody's seen a copy of the bill.
But I'll be honest with you. If I had had a budget resolution like this one last night, I would want to pass it early in the morning too, when everyone's asleep.
The sad thing is when college students wake up, they're going to see, as you said, a $13 billion tax on their shoulders. Women, who depend on nutrition programs and children who have been on nutrition programs are going to have those programs cut.
I don't see why making college less affordable for middle-class, hard-working bright students and cutting nutrition programs for babies and for women is good for America.
PILGRIM: Higher co-payments for the elderly and medical, $11 billion in Medicare and Medicaid cuts. Will there be political retribution on this?
EDWARDS: Well, I think there will be, and I beat my opponent even though I was a target at Tom DeLay's redistrict here in Texas because she offered the law in Texas that cut children's health insurance program. And people saw that as mean spirited. I think this bill really is mean-spirited. And if it were for the purpose of reducing the deficit, that would be one thing. I could respect it but disagree with it. But what they've done is cut education, health care, job training programs, even child support programs to run down dead beat dads to pay for $200,000 a year tax cut for someone making a million dollars this year in dividend income.
I don't think that reflects the American values, and it certainly doesn't reflect the Christmas spirit and the holiday spirit of this season.
PILGRIM: Well, no one denies that the budget deficit is a problem. What would be your prescription if it isn't this?
EDWARDS: First, I think we need to put in place the pay as you go rules that worked in the 1990's and resulted in actually having budget surpluses. Alan Greenspan had said those new rules if re- implemented would basically be the most important thing we could do to reduce the deficit.
Secondly, I would call for a bipartisan budget summit, as former President Bush did in 1990, as we worked on bipartisan basis in 1997, and work on this budget on a bipartisan basis. I don't think either party's willing to make the tough choices alone or can afford to make those choices alone to balance the budget.
And it's time for the Republican leadership in Congress to return to bipartisanship in budgets rather than these Scrooge-like completely partisan budgets that they've passed for the last several years.
PILGRIM: Well, we certainly hope for some sense. And thank you for joining us tonight...
EDWARDS: Thank you.
PILGRIM: ...to discuss it. Representative Chet Edwards, thank you.
The House of Representatives today delivered a big victory to the middle class technology workers. The House killed a Senate measure that would have greatly expanded the H1-B visa program.
Now this measure would have allowed the United States to hand out 30,000 more H1-B visas each year to foreigners looking to work for American tech companies. Tech companies are using these visas to hire low wage workers and fire middle class and American workers.
Now a reminder now to vote in tonight's poll, which do you believe is the most critical issue for President Bush and Congress to address, broken borders, the war on terrorism, the economy or Iraq. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes.
And still ahead tonight, we'll have the very latest on the deadly plane crash off of Miami Beach. Plus, the United States or the untied states. We'll talk to the author of a new book on the deep divisions in this country. What they mean for our future, next.
And it's also been called a nightmare vote for the United States. Another controversial left leaning politician appears to be rising in Latin America. And we'll tell you where next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN, "The Situation Room" and Wolf Blitzer--Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks Kitty.
We've got lots going on, including that plane crash off the coast of Miami Beach. A dramatic search-and-rescue effort all caught on videotape. What went so terribly wrong?
And Saddam Hussein's escape plan. Find out for the first time how he was trying to make his getaway from U.S. troops.
Plus, Condoleezza Rice in a one-on-one interview. I'll ask her some tough questions about why President Bush authorized the secret use of wiretaps. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: He did it to protect the country because these days after September 11th we recognized and he recognized, as the one with real responsibility for protecting the country, that if you let people commit the crime then thousands of people die. So you have to detect it before it happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: My interview with the secretary of state, Kitty. All of that coming up right at the top of the hour.
PILGRIM: Thanks, Wolf. We look forward to it.
My next guest has written a provocative new book that raises serious questions about the future of our country. Well, in it Juan Enriquez compares the polarization in this country to deep divisions within a troubled marriage. He suggests the United States like many marriages and many countries around the world could be headed for a split.
This book is called "The Untied States of America: Polarization, Fracturing in Our Future." And Juan Enriquez joins me now.
And thanks for being with us.
JUAN ENRIQUEZ, AUTHOR, "THE UNTIED STATES OF AMERICA": Thank you, Kitty.
It is a dire picture that you paint. Let's bring out some of the highlights. One thing you talk about red versus blue states is interesting. But you talk about wealthy zip codes versus the rest of the country. Flush that out a little bit. What are the demographic trends on this?
ENRIQUEZ: Well, it's really interesting. See in an agricultural economy, you needed big countries and a lot of people working. The same in a manufacturing economy. In a knowledge economy, smart people tend to cluster together. So there are zip codes like 92121 in San Diego. There's zip codes like 02139 in Cambridge, and an awful lot of the country's wealth is generated by a very few brains in a very few places.
PILGRIM: Why is that a problem they can trade ideas? It seems like the ultimate prescription for success.
ENRIQUEZ: Well, I think it is, but what happens is in the measure that those education systems become stronger. The financing there becomes stronger. The smart people and the smart immigrants go to those places. Then a lot of places are left behind, and it becomes harder for those places to catch up.
PILGRIM: You talk about demographic trends, ethnic islands. You say Hispanic and black population of this country will be 40 percent of the population in the next 50 years. Is that a problem?
ENRIQUEZ: It is a huge problem if we don't get serious about education because right now we're taking sports, and we're making two a day practices, and we're making meritocracies. And we are winning all the world's series versus the rest of the countries of the world.
But in education where the 17th. And if we are competing with Latvia that is not a problem. But our first five competitors are the people we are running trade deficits with. And more and more the smart people are staying in those countries.
That makes it very hard to compete if we don't upgrade those educational because within 30 or 40 years, 90 percent of the scientists will be in Asia and two percent of the Phd in science and math are going to African-Americans, one percent to Hispanics.
PILGRIM: I don't know if you saw our previous interview, but we were talking about $13 billion cut out of student aid budgets. Do you think that's a big problem we should be funding? Is it a question of money for students?
ENRIQUEZ: I think it's a huge problem. Because right now we're spending $22,000 per person over 65, federal dollars. We're spending $2,000 per person under 16. So that's a 10 to one in what was to what's coming.
And if we don't start spending on youth, if we don't upgrade those education systems, the money for the economy, the increase in jobs, the increase in brains, the increase in patents isn't going to be there.
So I think what we have to do is give a proxy vote to every parent for every child under 18. So we have a voting block that will counteract some of the aging folks in this country.
PILGRIM: What's the end scenario here?
ENRIQUEZ: Well, the end scenario is the United States is a country whose borders have kept changing. There is yet to be a single U.S. president buried under the same flag he was born under. So over the course of five lifetimes this has gone from 13 stars to 50. Meanwhile, three-quarters of the countries in the world have split, succeeded, fallen apart.
PILGRIM: Do you really suggest that the United States could fall apart?
ENRIQUEZ: I think, every other country--if you had been sitting in 1902 in the most powerful empire, in the powerful economy, in the most powerful Navy in the world, you would have been sitting in Britain, that country went 11 million square miles to 89,000 square miles. And it never asked itself in 1902, 1905, what will my map look in 1955.
We should be asking today, what will the U.S. map look like in 2055, and how do we get there?
PILGRIM: Do you think that we'll be redrawing maps? Do you go that far?
ENRIQUEZ: I think the whole rest of the world has been redrawing maps, and I think the United States could easily become larger in the next 50 years and more powerful. But I think some of the current trends could also make it a smaller country and we could go from 50 stars to 40.
PILGRIM: How does legal and illegal immigration play into this, one of the topics that this show examines in depth?
ENRIQUEZ: Well, I think one of the things that's really interesting about the maps of illegal immigration is the concentrations are almost entirely in places that have Spanish names and that's where people are going to -- San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, California, New Mexico.
So you have almost a group going back to areas where they felt comfortable once upon a time.
You have to take control of borders, you have to be very careful about who you bring in and you have to be very careful about educating people you bring in. If you don't do that, the youth and the power of having people to work and smart people to work is going to be in real trouble.
This country doesn't have the education system to fund high-tech and it so far needs to bring in serious people to complement that. If it cuts that off, a lot of our labs and research facilities are going to be in trouble because a lot of the people in chemistry and physics and life science labs today are not called John Smith.
PILGRIM: You raise some very, very compelling points.
Thank you very much for being with us, Juan Enriquez.
And the book is called "The Untied States of America."
Thanks so much.
ENRIQUEZ: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Still ahead, the latest on the deadly plane crash off of Miami Beach.
And, he calls himself America's nightmare. Tonight, he appears headed for office. We'll have a special report on a sweeping victory for Bolivia's far-left president-elect, Evo Morales.
Plus, the results of our poll question, also a tribute to our troops, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: More now on this deadly plane crash off of Miami Beach.
In the past few minutes, the Coast Guard has briefed reporters about the crash. The Coast Guard now says 20 people were on board the seaplane, 19 bodies have been recovered, one person still missing.
Now, the Coast Guard captain James Mays described the rescue operation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. JAMES MAYS, U.S. COAST GUARD: It did happen very close to the Coast Guard station. The response was immediate.
Our partners from the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission, Miami-Dade Police, Miami-Dade Fire Rescue, city of Miami -- we just had a lot of people out here doing what needed to get done to respond to this tragedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now, we'll continue to bring you the very latest on the search and the investigation as it develops and we'll have much more at the top of the hour with Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Turning to Latin America, first came Fidel Castro, then Hugo Chavez and now a new leftist politician is set to take power. His name is Evo Morales. And tonight he's claiming victory on this weekend's presidential vote in Bolivia.
Morales calls his socialist movement a, quote, "nightmare for the United States." His growing popularity in Bolivia is raising new fears over Latin America's dangerous tilt to the left.
Lucia Newman reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bolivia's poor disenfranchised majority sees him as a champion, an Indian, like themselves, who rose to fame as the leader of the country's combatant coca leaf farmers.
But for Bolivia's tiny middle class and elite, there could be no one worse for president than Evo Morales, a fiery socialist and sworn enemy of capitalism -- a man who also horrifies the White House.
ANDRES OPPENHEIMER, LATIN AMERICAN ANALYST: I think this would be the worst nightmare scenario for Washington because right now you have a growing alliance between Venezuela and Cuba, and what is now a duo may become a trio.
NEWMAN: Bolivia is already a powder keg, the poorest and most politically unstable country in South America -- a nation that's had nearly 200 military coups in as many years and four presidents in the last four years; the last two forced out by national strikes led by Evo Morales, a man with a plan.
"I'm convinced and have been reconvinced that the solution for our nation's ills is socialism," he says.
All this with the political and moral support of his two regional mentors, Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWMAN: And, Kitty, as you can imagine, Morales' victory is being celebrated both in Venezuela and here in Cuba.
In fact, when Morales was here in Havana not so long ago, he called Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro models for the liberation of Latin America, and by liberation, Kitty, he means being liberated among other things of U.S. political and economic influence.
PILGRIM: Lucia, what does this mean for the drug eradication program, something that's very important to those in the United States?
NEWMAN: Well, Morales has made it very clear that one of his top priorities will be to end, to halt, the U.S.-sponsored drug eradication program.
And as you know, coca leaves are used for medicinal purposes, they have been traditionally for centuries in the Andean countries, but it's also the raw material of cocaine.
So this policy is sure to put him on a confrontational path with Washington -- Kitty?
PILGRIM: All right.
Thanks very much, Lucia Newman. Thanks, Lucia.
Now we have the results of tonight's poll: 55 percent of you said our broken border is the most critical issue for President Bush and Congress to address; 3 percent said the war on terrorism; 27 percent, the economy; 15 percent of you said Iraq.
Finally tonight, our tribute to our troops. Each night on this broadcast, we share the thoughts of some men and women serving the nation far from home this holiday season.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Lieutenant Colonel Tim Brown (ph) here from Tikrit, Iraq. I'd like to wish my family, my wife Stacy (ph), my children Kristin (ph), Scott, Dave and Daniel, a happy new year and merry Christmas. I love you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Sergeant Karima Banks Thompson (ph) from U.S. Bahrain, wishing everybody happy holidays, especially my mom and dad in New York City. Love you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I'm Petty Officer Joanne Soha (ph) here in Camp Arafjan, Kuwait. I just want to say hello to my dad and my friends in Bath, Pennsylvania. Merry Christmas, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. My name is Specialist Dezi Johnson (ph). I'm with the 101st Airborne Division. I'm in Kirkuk, Iraq, and I would like to wish my family in Milton, North Carolina, a happy holiday. I love you and I'll be home soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello. I'm Sergeant First Class Perry Reed (ph) out of Taji, Iraq. And I'd like to wish everyone a happy holidays, especially a merry Christmas to my lovely wife Shana (ph), my daughter Shanice (ph) and my sons, Anthony (ph) and Marcell (ph).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Thanks for being with us tonight.
Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, good night from New York.
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