Return to Transcripts main page

INSIGHT

Nigeria Tackles Corruption

Aired December 20, 2005 - 18:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST: A country crippled by corruption. From oil rip offs to mail scams, Nigeria is infamous for fraud, kickbacks and graft. The president is campaigning against it. Is he really campaigning for himself?
Hello and welcome.

Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo fired his environment minister Tuesday after lawmakers accused him of corruption. The president fired his housing minister earlier in the year after he too was accused of corruption. The president also fired his education minister after he was accused of corruption as well.

Nigerians are seeing something they never have before: a leader elected on a promise of attacking graft who actually seems to be doing it. His government is taking on powerful figures, even his own vice president. It's an enormously important effort that may have an additional effect: clearing away opponents and allowing the president to run for office again.

On our program today, who will be next in Nigeria.

CNN's Jeff Koinange has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In its 45 years as a state, Nigeria hasn't had much practice at smooth political successions. More often than not, the military has stepped in as civilian governments have wallowed in squabbles and rampant corruption, which is one reason why the future of this man is attracting plenty of attention.

Alhaji Atiku Abubukar was sworn in for a second term as vice president of Nigeria barely two years ago. He was known simply as the man next to the man. This was the picture many Nigerians were accustomed to seeing of the president and his man, side by side, always smiling, at least for the cameras.

Now Atiku is making headlines for all the wrong reasons. President Obasanjo's deputy and once touted successor is in the battle of his political life, at times trading insults with his boss in an unprecedented public display of political mudslinging. The president is even speaking of, quote, "proven cases" of Atiku's disloyalty.

But the man at the center of the storm sits calmly in his office just a few doors down from the president's, playing down reports of a rift.

ALHAJI ATIKU ABUBUKAR, NIGERIAN VICE PRESIDENT: The president and I have worked amicably well and occasionally we do have disagreement on how to do certain things, but this is normal in a working relationship. You should not expect a relationship to be absolutely smooth.

KOINANGE: And it's likely to get rougher when allegations begin to surface against the vice president at home and abroad.

In August the FBI waited a home owned by Abubukar's wife in an up- market suburb of Washington, D.C. The agency is investigating a telecommunications deal in Nigeria that U.S. Congressman William Jefferson was trying to broker on behalf of a U.S. company. His homes have also been searched.

How Abubukar came to acquire that house is also attracting the attention of Nigeria's Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, the EFCC, which is tasked with battling corruption. Abubukar says it was bought in 2001 with proceeds from the sale of another house.

There is no doubting the vice president's wealth. This is his sprawling residence in the Nigerian capital, Abuja, for which he reportedly paid $3 million. And this is his retreat in his home village in Nigeria's north. Sources at the EFCC say it cost $5 million.

Abubukar is also said to own various other properties around the country. The question is whether Abubukar has used his position of enrich himself. His office says he was a wealthy businessman before entering politics and was chairman of several companies. But the country's anticorruption watchdog is looking into the vice president's role in the country's privatization program and asking whether he may have profited from investments while in office. Sources at EFCC say they are looking at holdings he has in Habib Nigeria Bank, African Petroleum and a logistics company serving multinational oil companies and Malibu Oil and Gas, a local multimillion dollar oil company.

The country's information minister says if there is evidence the vice president has been using his position to acquire personal wealth, then he should be treated no differently than other recent high profile corruption cases in Nigeria.

FRANK NWEKE, NIGERIAN INFORMATION MINISTER: The former inspector of general of police and currently in custody and is being prosecuted. The former president of the senate has lost his job and is being prosecuted. My former colleagues, some ministers, education, housing, I caught. They were dismissed. And here has never been any other time in the history of this country where you had people so highly placed in government actually come under such fire.

KOINANGE: Speaking to CNN, the vice president refused to comment on any investigations or allegations about his conduct. Instead, he said he was fully engaged in the war on corruption.

ABUBUKAR: I believe we are winning the war on corruption, and I have always commended the president for his aggressiveness, for his courage, for his rigidness as far as the fight of corruption is concerned, and I think we need it at this time, and I think he has reached a level where the threat against corruption cannot be reversed.

KOINANGE: Some of Atiku Abubukar's allies are already feeling the heat. Diepreye Alamieyeseigha was governor of Bayelsa state in the oil- rich Niger Delta. He was arrested in September when he arrived in London carrying more than 1 million pounds, nearly $2 million, in cash, and his assets in Britain, nearly $20 million, have been frozen.

While awaiting trial on charges of money laundering, Alamieyeseigha fled Britain. According to British police, he took a train for Paris and then flew home to Nigeria, where, as governor of a state, he enjoyed immunity from prosecution. But not for long. Last week he was impeached by the state assembly and was immediately arrested by Nigerian police. And on Tuesday he appeared in court in Lagos to face 40 charges of corruption and money laundering.

It wasn't the first time that British police moved against a senior Nigerian politician. Last year they arrested another Abubukar ally, Governor Joshua Dariye of Plateau state. He too was granted bail in London and fled back to his home state in Nigeria. But now a committee of the Plateau state assembly is examining charges brought against him by the EFCC.

The EFCC won't say whether it plans to bring charges against the vice president. Whatever the fate of Atiku Abubukar, President Obasanjo insists there is a new urgency in Nigeria about tackling corruption, and certainly the Finance Ministry has led an energetic campaign against alleged wrongdoers, whether the government allies or opponents.

NWEKE: It's no longer business as usual. People can no longer carry on with the kind of impunity with which they were doing things in the past. We know that it is only a question of time before we can, you know, really bring this to their level.

KOINANGE: But Nweke openly acknowledges.

NWEKE: One can say that not every one is committed to the fight against corruption.

KOINANGE: The anti-corruption watchdog, Transparency International, rates Nigeria as the sixth most corrupt country in the world. When I caught up with President Obasanjo in the country's capital, Abuja, I wanted to know whether anyone here is considered untouchable.

OLUSEGUN OBASANJO, NIGERIAN PRESIDENT: It does not matter who you are. If you are found guilty of corruption, you will be brought to book. No matter who you are, no matter where you are. Because we are in fact defining corruption, not only the abuse or misuse of public power for private gain. It is the abuse and misuse of any power, any position, public or private, for the gain that it is not authorized for. And for that reason, we are leaving no stone unturned. Anybody for that matter.

KOINANGE (on camera): Nobody is above the law, sir?

OBASANJO: Nobody. And we have proved that, that nobody is above the law.

But we allow due process to manifest itself and to take its course.

KOINANGE (voice-over): But some Nigerian analysts believe that beyond the swirl of corruption allegations, there may also be a political dimension to the row between the president and his number two. Atiku Abubukar hopes to succeed Obasanjo as president, but the president may still harbor ambitions of running for a third term if the national assembly amends the constitution.

One possible consequence of their dispute is political paralysis. Under Nigerian law, the president cannot simply dismiss his deputy, no matter how much evidence is produced. Impeachment of the president and his deputy can only be done by the country's national assembly.

(on camera): Now riffs between presidents and their deputies is nothing new in Africa. Most recently, South African President Tabo Mbeki sacked Jacob Zuma (ph) as vice president. Zuma (ph) now faces perjury and tax evasion charges.

But this is Nigeria, where personal egos dominate political life, where accusations mixed with ambition dim the contest for political influence and the presidency of Africa's most populous nation. Nigerian politics, it seems, may be about to enter a new and potentially dangerous phase.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, Abuja.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: We take a break. When we come back, changing a culture of corruption.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: It's going to be a little harder to get around Nigeria for the next little while. The government has grounded three domestic airlines after a string of crashes and close calls. More than 200 people have been killed in air accidents in just the past two months. Protestors call the country's airplanes flying coffins. The president himself says the problem is corruption.

Welcome back.

In aviation, as elsewhere, the Nigerian government knows it has a problem. Nigerian President Obasanjo ordered the country to change the way it oversees air safety. He fired senior officials and a new task force is investigating the problem. Will that be enough to convince you to fly in Nigeria? Is anything the president has done enough?

A short time ago we got in touch with Anthony Goldman of Clearwater Research Services, a London-based consulting firm.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANTHONY GOLDMAN, CLEARWATER RESEARCH SERVICES: I think that if you look at the plus points, there have been many. A former head of the police has been arrested, investigated and convicted of stealing very large sums of money. A number of government ministers, senior government ministers, previously people who might have been regarded as beyond any kind of probe or investigation, have been arrested and have been sacked from their jobs for allegations of corruption.

MANN: Has it had any impact? Would someone visiting Nigeria or investing in Nigeria or living in Nigeria actually notice a difference?

GOLDMAN: We get a lot of inquiries from countries, European and American companies, about whether things are changing in Nigeria and whether they're going to find it an easier place to do business. Now, the World Bank and IMF and many creditors believe that Nigeria is making advances in this area, and they've rewarded Nigeria with a fairly generous package of debt relief which should see pretty much the elimination of Nigeria's $35 billion plus foreign debt.

But the question is, to what extent is that seen as an end in itself in a country like Nigeria, or how far the reformer will be able to take those good signs from the international community, those signs of goodwill, and be able to translate that into a different way of doing business. So far, I think at least, I think the signs are mixed, particularly in the economically critical oil sector, where I think a lot of the big players still have complaints over the level of transparency in the industry and how genuine the government really is about root and branch changing the way that Nigeria is governed.

MANN: Well, someone obviously is making a lot of money out of all of this corruption. How hard are those people fighting back?

GOLDMAN: Well, I think that one of the problems that the government has is there are serious vested interests, entrenched interests, people who have benefitted very well from the way that Nigeria has been run, or rather not run in many instances, and it's quite difficult to roll all of that back.

For example, when there was a new industry in time, GSM Mobile Licenses, the process was a lot more easy for the government to manage in terms of licensing than in more established industries in terms of the city regulating the power sector or competition in the oil sector. And I think for those reasons it's a huge job, and I think one of the regions why there are some people around the president who are beginning to use the size of that task as a pretext perhaps for looking at some of the sort of political issues, saying that the reform process in Nigeria has reached a critical stage. The team is there, the momentum exists, and the last thing that Nigeria needs now is a change of direction and the instability that that might bring. And that's why many people are beginning to dress up the anti-corruption issue as a political issue and looking to whether or not President Obasanjo should change the constitution and remain in power.

MANN: We're going to talk about that more in a moment, but without naming any names that will get us sued, when you look at the problem, is the government trying to take on the political class? Is there a criminal class that's responsible for this? Or is it just the entire culture of he country from top to bottom that has to be changed?

GOLDMAN: No, I think this is a massive issue. This isn't something that started a few years ago. This is something that has been eating away at nigeria for 20 years, fueled in part I think but also I think by the complexities of ruling a country that is as vast as Nigeria is and has expanded as quickly as Nigeria has done, and I think the problem for decision-making, the lack of capacity within the bureaucracy, I think has helped create this culture, if you will, of corruption, when every day in people's lives, their experience of how to get through each day and the compromises and the shortcuts that people have to make. In a sense, there is much of a political and economic reform question. This is also a cultural question, and Nigeria needs as much a revolution in attitudes and thinking as it does in new legislation or new measures.

MANN: Well, I asked that because, as you have eluded to, the president may serve two terms, he may try and serve a third term. But ultimately, do you think that he can succeed? Do you think one man's effort in the space of a decade or so is enough to change this?

GOLDMAN: I think that one of the problems in Nigeria is a question of leadership, but the question -- in years gone by in Nigeria -- it's a question of creating a real coalition of interests around a central figure.

Even in the darkest days of dictatorship, Nigeria was ruled through a network of interests across this vast, vast country with many disparate political constituencies, and I think in a way that's one of the things that makes Nigeria quite a difficult place to change very quickly, because you have so many different factions and constituencies to balance off.

And I think that one of the questions that President Obasanjo's supporters are now supporting is that, with a reform team in place, with some aggressive people who are establishing a track record and delivering on making some of those change which point the way, perhaps, to a different kind of Nigerian, a kind of pace where initiative is properly rewarded, that those kinds of people need the support that perhaps and uncertain political period around our actions in 2007 might not deliver. And I think for that reason that there is increasing pressure from some constituencies at least for Obasanjo to stay on in 2007.

By the same token, other people are saying that if Nigeria is ever to work, the key to it has to be due process, that it's not a question of whether one man should really be able to make a difference. It's a question of whether the system can be made to work, and the simple fact is that if you change the system 18 months before a president leaves office, it looks very much as if it is being done to accommodate a particular individual and their own particular circumstances rather than a system itself which should be able to have the organic and institutional strength to be able to make those confident moves, to change Nigeria for the better any way.

MANN: Well, we're going to talk more about that in a moment, but for now, Anthony Goldman of Clearwater Research, thank you so much for talking with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

We take another break. When we come back, a closer look at President Obasanjo's political ambitions. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: Olusegun Obasanjo was elected in 1999, a former military leader voted in to lead the country again democratically. He was reelected in 2003. As we've heard, the Nigerian constitution bars him from seeking another term, but there are widespread suspicions that his anti-corruption campaign is an instrument to clear opponents from his path.

Welcome back.

The president has never said he wants to remain in office, but he has taken a number of steps that suggest it, and Nigerians are divided about whether he should.

Joining us now to talk about that is Emira Woods, co-director of Foreign Policy and Focus at the Institute for Policy Studies.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Why do so many people believe that the president wants a third term?

EMIRA WOODS, INST. FOR POLICY STUDIES: Well, there is a sense that there is momentum now with the Obasanjo administration and they want to maintain that momentum, the momentum in the West Africa region and on the global and international stage as well.

So there is a sense that let's keep things going, as they are going relatively well from the perspective of the government.

MANN: Well, to what extent can you tell, can outsiders tell, if the anti-corruption drive is being manipulated for that purpose, to keep him in office?

WOODS: Well, it's difficult to second guess. Clearly, anti- corruption measures are to be congratulated. They are steps in the right direction. Very much in line with the United Nations and International Convention Against Corruption and other international measures that are saying we cannot have democracy, we cannot have rule of law, unless these very core issues of corruption, of transparency, of accountability are addressed.

So they are steps in the right direction that should really be upheld. The question on the political end in terms of the Obasanjo intentions is a whole 'nother issue.

MANN: Is that why the vice president is in trouble, because he's standing in the president's way?

WOODS: Well, clearly there are rivals within any kind of a political campaign, and there are rivals within, as we get closer to 2007, within the Nigerian political context as well.

It is an issue to be addressed, but what needs to be respected here is the rule of law, and I think there are clear indications that the rule of law will be respected and that in fact Obasanjo and the administration will not move towards changes in the constitution.

MANN: Well, if the change in the constitution is done lawfully, one could make the argument that the rule of law is respected, that a popular president stays in office because the people want it. Is that necessarily a harmful thing? We heard from one guess who said that it really probably wouldn't be all that good in the Nigerian context.

WOODS: Well, it depends on how much arm twisting there is. I think there will be a clear sense in the international community. Now you have the African Union, with its peer review mechanisms in place, that there should be a core belief in the constitution and it should not be changed to fit the whims of any particular regime. There should be core respect for the constitution and it should be maintained.

MANN: Well, you're saying it depends on how much arm twisting is going on. Once again, outsiders say that the ruling People's Democratic Party has essentially been purged, at least the leadership has been purged, of anyone who wants to stand in the president's way. Is that a fair accusation to make?

WOODS: Well, I think it's a concern, and I think clearly there are opposition leaders that are making that concern quite clearly and quite articulately at the national level.

What needs to happen really is for both foreigners and the international community more broadly, West Africans in particular, to say we respect the leadership that has been provided by the Obasanjo regime and that we need to have that regime respect also its own due process, its own rule of law.

MANN: Up until now we've been talking about the law and the political class. Let me ask you about the people of Nigeria. It's an enormous country, 120 million people of diverse ethnicity, of diverse regional loyalties. Will they stand for President Obasanjo staying in office for another term? Would they support it?

WOODS: Let's be clear. The parliament has changed over the last few years. It has become much more responsive to the needs of their constituency, of the Nigeria people. The calls for debt repudiation, for not repaying the debt of Nigeria, those came from people saying no, we don't owe, we won't pay, and insisting that their leadership reflect that sentiment.

I would suspect that that leadership, which has found its voice on the corruption issue, will continue to say we must have the constitution respected, the rule of law respected, and to make sure that the due process is actually sustained and maintained.

MANN: Let me just ask you one lat question, and that's about the person of the president himself. He seems to be a profoundly democratic man, a man with democratic instincts, a man who supports the rule of law, a man who is taking great measures against corruption, a man who has done something to relieve the debt of his country. It seems like Nigeria could do worse than have President Obasanjo for one more round.

WOODS: Well, let's be clear. This is not about just one person or one individual. So often we focus on that. We have to say yes, there are some positives with this administration. There are also some negatives. Let's be clear as well. The Charles Taylor issue is still very much alive and well with a former dictator being pretty harbored there in Nigeria. So the picture is not entirely rosy. There are many blemishes on the score card. But what can be said is that there have been steps in the right direction in terms of political leadership on the African continent, and it is those steps that have to be congratulated and yet encouraged to move beyond one individual toward a broader political process, due process, where peoples' needs, peoples' priorities, and the will of the people is actually upheld.

MANN: Emira Woods, of the Institute for Policy Studies, thanks so much for talking with us.

WOODS: Thank you.

MANN: That's INSIGHT for today. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com