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Nancy Grace

An Accused Serial Rapist Escapes a Miami Jail. Multi-millionaire Cross-dressing Real Estate Mogul Robert Durst, Who Beat a Murder Charge, was Arrested for Violating Probation by Visiting the Galveston, Texas, Scene of the Crime of which he was Accused.

Aired December 21, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. An accused serial rapist escapes a Miami jail. He`s accused of raping seven girls and women in the Little Havana neighborhood there in Miami. Can you help police find this man, armed and dangerous?
And it didn`t take long for Michael Jackson to jump from the fire straight into the frying pan. Jackson tonight accused of kidnapping his own children out of the country.

And multi-millionaire real estate mogul Robert Durst beat a murder charge, that`s right. But now Durst has landed back in jail.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, you think a default on $200 million in loans is a problem for music icon Michael Jackson? Well, hey, that`s a drop in the bucket compared to papers accusing Jackson of kidnapping his own children straight out of this country.

And then, Robert Durst, cross-dressing real estate millionaire -- that`s right, cross-dressing -- after a Texas jury acquitted him for the death and dismemberment -- dismemberment! -- of his elderly neighbor, a 74- year-old man -- well, he has landed himself back behind bars.

But first tonight, breaking news. A man accused of raping seven girls and women in Little Havana, Florida, escapes from a Miami jail. He apparently -- OK, got to get a flow chart -- sawed through the bars in his cell, step one, went through a vent in the ceiling, step two, and then tied bedsheets bedsheets together to climb down, step three, step four, walk free!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was our number one priority from September of 2002 to September of 2003, 11-year-old children to 79-year-old women, 11 victims in that time period within a small area of our city. We have to find this guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to go straight out to Al Warnell. He is with WIOD Miami-Dade, reporter. First of all, Al, please tell me I`m wrong. Is this guy an immigrant from the Honduras?

AL WARNELL, WIOD MIAMI-DADE: He is from Honduras, and he`s an immigrant from Honduras.

GRACE: Well, since he`s already been arrested twice before these arrests, one for ag assault with a weapon -- and what`s the other one for, Ellie (ph)?

WARNELL: Following a 10-year-old girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: Right. OK. You`ve got a guy here that`s an immigrant from the Honduras. He allegedly follows -- fondles a little girl and has an ag assault with a weapon, and we still kept him here? Now we find out about the other, what was it, seven rapes?

WARNELL: That`s correct. Basically, those first two charges, the ag assault and the fondling, neither one of those witnesses testified. They refused to testify, so therefore, they had to throw the case out. So he had no criminal charges.

GRACE: You mean the little girl wouldn`t testify?

WARNELL: Well, I`m pretty sure her parents would not allow her to testify.

GRACE: OK. All right. And what about the ag assault with a weapon?

WARNELL: That was with his ex-girlfriend, and apparently...

GRACE: Oh, OK! Well, that doesn`t count then, I guess.

WARNELL: Well, he came at her with a hammer, and she said, Oh, he`s a nice guy. I`m not going to testify against him, so...

GRACE: OK, maybe I`m wrong...

WARNELL: ... the cops had no case.

GRACE: ... but when we have an immigrant in this country who gets arrested for fondling a 10-year-old girl and coming at his girlfriend with a hammer, I don`t know why he`s still in this country. And now we`ve got the rapes.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JOHN F. TIMONEY, MIAMI-DADE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Now, last night, shortly after 9:00 o`clock, Mr. Rapalo and another individual attempted escape from the jail. The other individual, in the process, wound up breaking one or maybe both of his legs, and so his escape was successful. However, Mr. Rapalo`s escape was successful.

The Miami neighborhoods of Shenandoah and Little Havana were terrorized during the summer of 2003, when numerous females age from 11 up to 79 were subject of rapes and sexual assaults by this man here, Reynaldo Rapalo.

Last night, shortly after 9:00 o`clock, Mr. Rapalo and another individual attempted escape from the jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what? This guy has no shame!

I want to go to a detective with the Miami-Dade Police Department, a special guest with us tonight, Nelda Fonticiella. Thank you for being with us, Nelda. Nelda, let me get this straight. We keep saying this guy is suspected in seven rapes, with victims ranging from age 11, a little girl, to 79 years old, an elderly lady. Is there DNA linking him to these rapes?

DET. NELDA FONTICIELLA, MIAMI-DADE POLICE DEPARTMENT: From what I understand, the City of Miami Police Department is the one that`s handling those cases. Out of those cases, six he`s been connected to them through DNA.

GRACE: Oh, 11 years old, 79 years old. Nelda, what can you tell us about the escape? And where are you looking for this guy? Everybody, Rapalo last name, Reynaldo first name -- let`s see a picture of him, Rosie (ph), please. Go ahead, Nelda.

FONTICIELLA: Well, we have a task force established with the county officers, city of Miami officers, and (INAUDIBLE) department law enforcement, as well as the U.S. marshals and ICE, which is Immigration and Customs. We`re searching for him, basically concentrating here in Miami- Dade County, but we do have a nationwide alert. And if he stopped anywhere in the country, hopefully, there`s a search for him anywhere elsewhere where they stop him, they can check on the national computer and he will appear there as an alert.

GRACE: Take a listen to what Miami-Dade police have to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIMONEY: It`s clear to me that there are people out in the community that know -- obviously, know this gentleman, who also know where he is now or what his intent is. And so while our investigators from the Miami-Dade Police Department and the Miami Police Department will work as many hours as necessary, it`s my feeling that one of the keys to getting this guy is help from the public.

BILL SCHWARTZ, MIAMI DEPARTMENT: We`re checking all avenues of escape, the airports, bus terminals, train stations, a lot of operational things I can`t talk about, but they are in place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This guy is on the run. Rosie, can you show that shot again? This guy, Reynaldo Rapalo, age 40 -- excuse me -- age 34, considered armed and dangerous, accused in seven rapes, victims aging 11 to 79 years old, plus four attempted assaults. Tip line, 305-471-TIPS. He is known as the Shenandoah rapist out of Miami, Florida.

And let me get this straight, Pat Lalama. Is it true Rapalo has a wife and three children back in the Honduras?

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, he does. He has a wife, and the eldest child is her child from another relationship, and then they have two together.

You know, one thing I just want to add, Nancy, and I`m sure the detective will concur on this -- this guy has nothing to lose. I mean, he is particularly what I like to call triple-D dangerous because he could face life in prison. He`s got nothing to lose. He probably doesn`t want to have to go back to Honduras. I`m telling you, this guy is probably really dangerous, aside from being a compulsive alleged criminal.

GRACE: Is it true, Al Warnell -- everybody, Al Warnell, WIOD Miami- Dade reporter -- that a visitor at the jail noticed him climbing down the side of the jail with the sheets?

WARNELL: That`s the most ironic thing I`ve ever heard of. A visitor noticed him climbing down at the jail facilities. What happened to the guards? What happened to the security cameras? What were they doing at this particular time? And that`s the question everybody is posing to the correction officials. What were your employees doing?

GRACE: You know what? You know what, Al? If this guy wasn`t such a clear and present danger to the women of the Miami-Dade area, I would actually laugh that a visitor sees him climbing down the side of the jail with sheets tied together.

Back to the detective with the Miami-Dade Police Department, Nelda Fonticiella. Nelda, how -- what are the resources police are using to catch this guy?

FONTICIELLA: Nancy, we`ve got everything that`s at our disposal is being used to find him. First let me clear up that unlike other areas in the county, where the sheriff`s department is part of the jail, it isn`t that way in Miami-Dade County. The corrections department is a separate department from the police department.

We`ve got -- like I said, we`ve got not only local, we`ve got state and national agencies helping us with this. So yes, I agree with the other guest that you had on. He has got absolutely nothing to lose. We do consider him armed and dangerous, and we really need the public`s assistance. If anybody sees him, to please contact the Miami-Dade Police Department through Crimestoppers (ph).

GRACE: Before we take you to our next story regarding Robert Durst back in jail, we really need your help tonight. The ladies, women in Miami-Dade area need your help. This guy already linked by DNA to, we believe, seven rapes, one little victim 11 years old, another 79 years old. This guy is out of jail, considered armed and dangerous. His name Reynaldo E. Rapalo. He is from the Honduras, age 34. Tip line, 305-471-TIPS.

Very quickly, back to investigative reporter Pat Lalama. I`m almost afraid to ask, but what is his immigration status?

LALAMA: Expired visa. I mean, welcome to my world out here in California.

GRACE: Whew!

LALAMA: If I could tell you the number of violent offenders here in California prisons, and you know -- and they`re repeat offenders...

GRACE: He`s expired. Why is he still here?

LALAMA: Well, you know, that`s a big D-U-H, Nancy.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You know what? We are spending $200 million to build a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, but we can`t send this guy packing back to the Honduras? I don`t understand that.

LALAMA: It`s such a sensitive issue. But let me tell you, the good thing about this case...

GRACE: How much is a one-way ticket, for Pete`s sake, $200?

LALAMA: Well, yes. I mean, or less. But the good thing about this is at least the Honduran government is saying it will cooperate. A lot of times, these countries, because they`re against the death penalty or against life in prison, won`t help us out. The Honduran government has already said it would help, and that`s a plus.

GRACE: Oh, wait! And here`s how that will work, Pat Lalama. Once he goes back to the Honduras, then they`ll so very kindly send him back to us, then he`ll be our problem when he gets paroled back out on the streets of Miami-Dade.

LALAMA: Right. And maybe...

GRACE: You know what? Keep him!

(LAUGHTER)

LALAMA: Yes!

GRACE: Don`t send him back to us COD. I can see where that`s going.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHWARTZ: His trial was coming up in January. He escaped just in time for Christmas. This is like a scene from "The Great Escape," but this guy is no Steve McQueen.

ROBERT PARKER, DIRECTOR, MIAMI-DADE POLICE DEPARTMENT: There is two concurrent investigations, one into the actual escape and the second one into the circumstance which led to the escape. And we will leave no stone unturned in determining whether this was happenstance or whether something needs to be corrected about the process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, we need your help, and so do the ladies and the population in Miami-Dade, Florida. This guy is armed and dangerous, already suspected in seven rapes, four attempted assaults. Charges were dropped in a molestation of a 10-year-old little girl and another aggravated assault. This guy literally climbed out of the jail with bedsheets.

To Nelda Fonticiella. I know you have an all-points bulletin out on him, but does it go across the country, Nelda? Do all law enforcement know about this guy?

FONTICIELLA: Definitely. It`s part of the national computer system, where we`re trying to let everyone know, so if he gets stopped, let`s say, in Iowa, that the police officers in Iowa will know that we`re looking for this guy.

GRACE: And very quickly to Vito Colucci, private investigator. Vito, before we go to break, what methods should they be using to find this guy tonight?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, what Nelda said is important. I`m just hoping that the police departments have access to his picture. You`ve shown his picture about 12 times already since you started the show. A police officer just stopping him or stopping a car, he could have a gun on him, he could shoot somebody, OK? You need to know what you`re dealing with. This is a little tiny guy, 5-foot-4. He may have a weapon.

GRACE: Hey, hey, hey! He may be tiny to you, but somebody that`s 5 feet, like me, you know, a gun or a knife makes a big man little and a little man big, OK? So he may not be that little when he`s got his foot through your bedroom window at 1:00 AM, OK?

COLUCCI: Oh, definitely. Definitely. So this is a two-fold thing. You have the people very afraid, the women especially, but you have to protect the police officers across the country. They need to know everything about him. This has to be announced at line-ups, midnight shift tonight, as well as his picture, not just his name and the information. I hope they got the pictures and all the description of this guy.

GRACE: OK, I`m going to show it one more time. There you go. Thanks, Rosie. Oh! Rosie, stick it back up one more time. Shenandoah rapist, contact Miami Police. They need your help, 305-579-6630. Reynaldo Elias Rapalo. Thank you to everyone, especially Nelda Fonticiella, detective with Miami-Dade Police Department, and Al Warnell.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Sad news to report tonight. A body found in a car pulled from the Oakland, California, estuary last night positively identified tonight as missing doctor we introduced you to, Dr. Zerah Attari of San Jose, Dr. Attari known for treating the poor and uninsured children at her private practice. She went missing November 7 after leaving her office to go to a medical conference. Tonight, our thoughts and prayers with her family, and especially her daughter, a doctor just like her mother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury find the defendant, Robert Durst, not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I`ve heard is that he traveled to Galveston County, which he denied permission to do. Have not seen (INAUDIBLE) paperwork or the petition on that, but that`s my understanding.

This is the state violation for a state conviction of failure to appear out of Galveston County. He also is on federal probation for interstate transportation firearm, and that is out of Philadelphia, but he`s being supervised here on that probation because he`s living here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Multi-millionaire real estate mogul Durst behind bars tonight. You remember Durst. There you go. That`s a shot of him when he`s not dressed as a woman. He loved to cross-dress. In fact, when he got arrested on the murder charge, he was in a gas station, like a 7-Eleven, dressed as an albino woman, stealing a submarine sandwich. Yes, you heard me, dressed as an albino woman with an afro, stealing a submarine sandwich, him, multi-millionaire Robert Durst.

Well, you know that Texas jury -- now, there`s the irony. A Texas jury lets the guy go after he kills his neighbor, Morris Black, and dismembers his body. His head was never found.

I want to go straight out to Leslie Snadowsky, investigative reporter. She was on this case from the get-go, in the courtroom every day. So Leslie, welcome to the show.

LESLIE SNADOWSKY, "NEW YORK POST": Thank you.

GRACE: I tried to get the picture of Durst in that outfit, but "The Post" wouldn`t give it to me, OK? So you`ve got to explain to the viewers what this is all about.

SNADOWSKY: Well, you know, like a moth to a flame, Bob Durst just can`t get away from Galveston. He`s back in jail...

GRACE: The scene of the crime! He goes back to the scene of the crime!

SNADOWSKY: I mean, you know, some experts say that`s kind of textbook when it comes to people who commit crimes. This whole thing is such a fascinating story. Durst himself admitted -- OK, he admitted to openly killing (INAUDIBLE) shooting. He said it as an accident, but he shot someone, and then he admitted to slicing and dicing up his victim, a 71- year-old elderly neighbor.

GRACE: I wish you wouldn`t say it that way.

SNADOWSKY: Oh, I`m sorry!

GRACE: When I think of Morris Black -- and you know what the defense was -- as if I need to tell you -- that the neighbor was cranky, the grumpy old man defense. So he killed him and chopped his head off.

SNADOWSKY: Yes. And as you stated, the head has never been found. But I`ll tell you, it was very interesting. During the trial, the prosecution brought on several medical witnesses and said that Morris Black was cut up like a side of carved beef, and so that no amateur could have done this. And that was so fascinating. I mean, one of the doctors said all the layers of skin and tissue and arteries he had to cut through to deal with, Bob Durst admitted to doing. I mean, it was -- it was crazy! It was crazy listening to all that.

GRACE: And I wonder, regarding him being arrested and put back in jail, what exactly -- what brought the arrest about?

SNADOWSKY: So strange. On December 16, he is in Galveston, and he`s not supposed to be in Galveston. He`s under what`s called SISP, super- intensive supervision program, from the state. He admitted to bail jumping and tampering with evidence, so the state has him on these charges. So he`s intense supervision. He`s pretty well tethered to home. He`s wearing an electronic monitor. And you know...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Electronic monitor?

SNADOWSKY: On his ankle.

GRACE: Then why didn`t an alert sound at headquarters, HQ, when he left to go back?

SNADOWSKY: Well, he left Harris County to go to Galveston, and you would think, you know, someone would be alerted. But I`ve asked several people, and I haven`t been able to get a straight answer about this monitor. Some people say this monitor is the type that just -- they check when you`re supposed to be home. So if he`s wearing it and he`s at home when he`s supposed to be home, it`s OK. It`s not a GPS monitor. It`s not one of those things where they can find you wherever you are.

GRACE: Well, I`m sure it was a little bit of a surprise for the former neighbors of Robert Durst, who dissected their other neighbor, Morris Black, to see him outside, perusing the structure.

Everybody, with me is Leslie Snadowsky. She is with "The New York Post," covering the Durst case. This multi-millionaire back behind bars. Why? He violated the terms of his parole and went back to the scene of the crime.

We`ll all be right back. But very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police now calling the husband of mom-to-be, remember, 21-year-old Christine Rudy -- calling her husband a person of interest in her murder. Shaun Rudy reported Christine missing two full days after he said he dropped her off on a Wisconsin highway during icy temperatures November the 12th. Christine`s remains found just last Friday in a wooded area.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t butcher somebody, put him in pieces, pack him up, dump him in the bay because there`s an accident. You cannot plan to have an accident. You cannot plan to act in self-defense. It doesn`t happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Multi-millionaire real estate mogul Robert Durst behind bars again. Now, Durst, as you know, beat murder charges. He admitted he shot his 74-year-old neighbor, Morris Black, and then dismembered him, but a jury let him off. Some of these jurors said they thought they couldn`t convict on murder without a head. Yes! To me, that`s all the more reason to convict. The victim didn`t have a head!

Straight out to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. Explain to me the terms of his parole. He was on parole for weapons charges, correct? Because he was acquitted on the murder.

LALAMA: Yes. Well, he had -- he had state and federal charges that he had to deal with. Or excuse me, local and state charges that he had to deal with, and some were gun charges, the other one was the bail jumping, et cetera, et cetera. And all of it was going to be over November 2006. He would have been entirely free.

And what he was supposed to do was check in with his parole person at all times. He was not to go to Galveston. If he had to go there, if he had to travel anywhere, he was supposed to check in and tell them. But you know what`s ironic? A couple of weeks ago, the judge in the case was shopping in Houston at a mall. She bumped into this person, looks up, it`s him.

GRACE: You know, to Dr. Stanley Titlebaum, psychiatrist. Dr. Titlebaum, why is it -- and I notice especially in rich people -- why do they think the laws by which we live don`t apply to them?

DR. STANLEY TITLEBAUM, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, because they live kind of in a bubble of their own, and they do want and then they think about it later. You know, they don`t worry too much about the consequences because -- and especially in this case of Mr. Durst, he has a history of, you know, kind of getting off easy, getting out of things.

And I think he`s the kind of personality who kind of needs to be in the midst of controversy, and so he finds another way, in this case, to go back to the scene of this crime and to revisit it, probably has some internal fantasies about what to do or what he might have done otherwise.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can`t convict someone on our thoughts or what we think or what we perceive or what we speculate. We can`t do that. We went on the facts that was presented to us from the prosecution. We could not convict him. He is not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were people that cried; there were people that fussed and argued. My stomach is still knotted up. But we did the best with what we had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A day late and a dollar short. She may have a sick stomach, but Morris Black is doing without his head tonight. Robert Durst was acquitted on the death and dismemberment of his 74-year-old neighbor, Morris Black. And now, violating the terms of his parole, he went back to the scene of the crime and nearly scared the wits out of his other neighbors living there.

Straight back out to Leslie Snadowsky, Leslie, what is his history? What has become of that Westchester investigation into the disappearance of his wife and then of one of the family`s best friends, killed execution- style out in California?

LESLIE SNADOWSKY: Well, Durst has had a very tragic life, especially his childhood. I mean, he witnessed his mother`s death. His family owns the Durst Organization. They are the Durst Organization, a multi-billion- dollar real estate company. They own skyscrapers in Manhattan...

GRACE: That doesn`t really sound tragic to me, Leslie.

SNADOWSKY: Well, he was passed over to lead that organization. He even testified himself that that wasn`t his thing, but his brother, Douglas, took over. And, all of a sudden, a lot of animosity started happening, among all of his siblings. There`s a big trust that they all draw on, and it`s really become almost a soap opera about who gets the most money. In fact...

GRACE: Well, how much money is in there, Leslie? I mean, what are they fighting over?

SNADOWSKY: The trust fund -- I`ve heard a lot of figures, but Durst himself said that he gets $2 million a year. That`s what he draws from the trust. But it`s split, not only among the core members of the family, but also now, you know, sons and daughters and relatives and things. So it`s become -- they`re not getting as much, I guess, as they did before.

GRACE: Leslie, Leslie, have any of them thought of, like, getting a job?

SNADOWSKY: Actually, you know, he did. He`s supposedly at a vitamin store with his first wife, Kathy, which I`m sure we want to talk about. I mean, that`s kind of what started his troubles.

In 1982, his first wife disappeared. And Durst was always, you know, a person of interest, I should say. Family members of Kathy and a lot of Kathy`s friends are convinced he`s the killer, but there were no charges, official charges, ever brought.

GRACE: Why?

SNADOWSKY: Well, she was never found.

GRACE: Well, you know, you can prove a murder case without a body, right, Richard Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, come on, Nancy. Very, very difficult to do that.

GRACE: Oh, really?

HERMAN: Very difficult.

GRACE: Really? I once had a case where there was only a glass eyeball left.

HERMAN: Well, Nancy, you know, you`re super-human, so you did that. But I`m telling you...

GRACE: Well, I can`t take credit on that one, but I can tell you this much: People prove murder cases without bodies all the time. I don`t know what jurisdiction you practice in, Richard, but it happens all the time.

HERMAN: The Big Apple, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, well, they don`t even have the death penalty in New York.

HERMAN: That`s right. That`s right.

But, Nancy, why don`t you comment on the fact that the inept prosecution on that murder case never had lesser included charges in that case? That was ridiculous. The defense attorneys ran circles around the prosecution. The jury had no choice but to acquit him in that case, absolutely not.

GRACE: You know, they did that. They didn`t let the facts get in the way of that acquittal.

To Lauren Lake, I guess you would argue that going back to the scene of the crime is not a violation of his parole.

(LAUGHTER)

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you got me on the ropes tonight, because I`m here to tell you this is one of these defendants where, as a defense attorney, you`re saying, "What in the world is your problem?"

You escape conviction by the hair of your chinny-chin-chin, and all you have to do is stay away. And up until now, he`s been a model parolee. But, yes, he`s going to leave me and the defense attorneys to try to argue why in the world he`s back at the scene of the crime. And let me admit: It`s going to be tough.

GRACE: And can you imagine, Lauren, say, a little old lady making her coffee at the kitchen window and looks out and sees this guy? I don`t know if his head was shaved or was he was wearing an albino afro wig. I don`t know. But I`m sure she did a back flip on the way dialing 911.

LAKE: Oh, I know she did. I mean, he`s notorious. I would have been scared to death. So, as I said before...

GRACE: Lauren, I thought you loved all your clients, embraced all your clients. Why would you be afraid of one?

LAKE: Nancy, I embrace the law and I uphold the law and represent my client to the fullest. But if I tell you, "Don`t you go around there"...

GRACE: You know what? I`m cutting that sound of you saying you embrace the law.

LAKE: I embrace it.

GRACE: Hey, take a listen to what -- actually, I want to show you what his lawyer had to say about violating his parole.

"This was a mistake in judgment, probably due to his Asperger`s syndrome. It`s typical that they" -- people affected with it -- "make errors in judgment. All he did was go to Galveston to visit his attorney and his doctor and sat in a coffee shop."

OK. Well, it`s my understanding, Leslie Snadowsky, with the "New York Post," that even the lawyers couldn`t get it straight. Some of them said he went back to look at some real estate. Some say he was in a coffee shop. So even his lawyers can`t come up with a straight story?

SNADOWSKY: I got two stories, as well. I mean, with the property, he has a real estate firm now. And, you know, he`s always been interested in real estate. His lease is up at his Houston townhouse where he is right now. So one of the attorneys said that maybe he was looking at property.

The weird thing is, the old department house that he lived in when the murder happened and when he sliced and diced up that guy, there`s a vacancy. And even more ominous, this person next door who saw Durst, it wasn`t just a person. This was a prosecution witness.

That`s why it was a little scarier, I think, but what`s he doing around a witness that basically testified against Durst?

GRACE: You know what, Leslie? We`ve been poking a little bit of fun at Robert Durst. I did not realize that the lady that got so scared had been a state`s witness. That puts this in an entirely different light, Leslie, because, you know, when investigators were taking a hard look at Durst in the disappearance of his wife, one of the family`s very dear friends, who may know information about that case, or at least about their marital history, suddenly turns up execution-style murdered in her home in California. No wonder this lady is so afraid tonight. Explain, Leslie.

SNADOWSKY: Well, you`re talking about, of course, Susan Berman, who was Robert Durst`s best friend. It turns out that she was supposed to give some sort of interview to a publication about Kathy Durst and the disappearance. And a couple of days later, boom, mysteriously found dead in her home, shot execution-style to the back of the head.

Durst is still a person of interest in that case. In fact, from this case, the weapons that were involved, the weapons found in Durst`s home, they were all shipped to L.A., because detectives were looking at them trying to find some sort of connection.

GRACE: Here`s what the task force has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The detective who`s on our task force was notified this morning. He`s in Huntsville right now. So he notified us and said the warrant was issued this morning, and so this is the address that he`s at. So we went over there to see if he was there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so you knocked on the door?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knocked on the door, he answered it. We advised him we`re the U.S. Marshals. You have a parole warrant that was just issued. And we put him in handcuffs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was somewhat surprised, but I wouldn`t say totally shocked. He was cooperative while we were there. And we transported him to the Harris County Jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Pat Lalama, where is he tonight?

PAT LALAMA: Nancy, did I hear my name?

GRACE: Yes. Where is he tonight, Pat?

LALAMA: He`s in jail and there`s a hearing that will be set, but not for a couple of weeks. So it`s very possible he`ll be having his little Christmas dinner behind bars.

GRACE: Oh, oh, boo-hoo!

And very quickly to Dr. Stanley Titlebaum, I`ve always been intrigued as to why criminals go back to the scene of the crime. Remember Scott Peterson kept going back and looking out over the San Francisco Bay before Laci and Conner washed up? That`s just one example of what happens so often.

TITLEBAUM: Yes, you know, that`s something that we call what-if and if-only fantasies. And people often go back to the scene of the crime to revisit something, to try to work out something internally that they`re struggling with.

GRACE: I think they`re going back to relive the whole thing...

TITLEBAUM: It could be to relive it...

GRACE: ... for some freaky thrill.

TITLEBAUM: ... or to consider, "What if I hadn`t done it that way? What if I had gone somewhere else that way? Or if only I had done something differently with him or if I hadn`t taken that next step things would have turned out better or turned out differently."

And the need to go back and to revisit the crime kind of outstrips the judgment in this case of, you know, what is he thinking, you know? Surely they`re going to find that he went there, that he violated his parole.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know about that, Doctor, because, apparently, the anklet he was wearing didn`t work.

And, of course, Leslie, if the neighbor had not seen him, the state`s witness, police would never have done a thing. A big thank you to Leslie, joining us tonight from the "New York Post," for filling us in on Robert Durst.

Everybody, very quickly, before we go out to the Michael Jackson case -- that`s right, Michael Jackson back in court again -- we want very much to help in our own way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Take a look at Estevan "Steve" Montano. Steve, 44, father of five, found dead from multiple gunshot wounds after a hunting trip, August 26th, 2004, Tucson, Arizona. If you have info on this husband and father, Estevan "Steve" Montano, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, toll- free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS MESEREAU, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: Mr. Jackson has been repeatedly advised by those who stood to make fortunes in his business affairs to pay money rather than face certain false allegations. As a result, many years ago, he did pay money rather than litigate two false allegations that he had harmed children.

People who intended to earn millions of dollars from his record and music promotions did not want negative publicity from these lawsuits interfering with their profits. These two false allegations must be placed in a proper perspective. Mr. Jackson has interacted with millions of children. Many millions of children around the world love Michael Jackson and never...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We thought it was all over, but guess what? He`s back. Papers in court claiming Michael Jackson has kidnapped his own children and taken them out of the country.

Straight out to Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. What exactly do the papers say and what does it mean?

LALAMA: All right, here`s the story. I`ll make it short and sweet. He made the deal with Debbie Rowe, the woman he had two of his children with. "You shut up, don`t talk about the kids, how we had the kids, where they came from, bodies, test tubes, whatever, I`ll pay you a certain amount of money, now just go away and leave me alone."

Right before the trial, he claimed that she violated their agreement and he stopped paying her. She got mad. She went to court. They started negotiations.

Well, don`t you remember during that Jackson trial when she got on the stand, surprised everybody by suddenly talking about what a great man he was, when, in fact, she had truly told the detectives that she thought he was -- and I`ll use the term -- a sociopath. Those were her words. And she worried for her kids.

She changed her testimony, we feel, or most of us feel, to get back in his good graces. They made a settlement, and everybody was happy.

Well, guess what? Now he`s taken the children to Bahrain. She doesn`t like that. She says he`s deliberately keeping them from her. A lot of people think that she wants to get back in the spotlight with Jackson and likes to stir up all this trouble.

So there you go. Now she`s claiming he abducted the children.

GRACE: Brian Oxman, response?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: During the trial, which was held in Santa Maria, there was a feud with Debbie Rowe, which was being publicized by people who were violating a confidentiality agreement which existed between those people. There never was a quid pro quo with Debbie Rowe. There never was any kind of an agreement of any kind with her. Her testimony was her own testimony.

And let tell you: It was as surprising to me as it was to anyone else, because there was a genuine feud with her.

GRACE: I mean, your response to the papers filed in court by Debbie Rowe accusing Michael Jackson of abducting the children.

OXMAN: Oh, Michael has never violated a court order in his life. He is not that kind of man. It is not the way he operates. I cannot imagine a circumstance in which Michael Jackson would violate a court order.

GRACE: So, Pat Lalama, what exactly do the papers allege?

LALAMA: Well, no one can see the papers because they`re private. And all custody matters are private. But there is a reporter, a local producer reporter, who was able to see the front of the documents, the front of the complaints, that stated that the contention was abduction.

And sources say that this is what she is claiming, that he deliberately took the children there just to, basically, you know, chap her hide. And it`s happening. And there`s all kinds of this lingering emotional stuff going on with Debbie Rowe. I mean, this has been years...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, the reality, though is, Richard Herman, even if a California judge says, "Bring the children back home," what good is that going to do in Bahrain?

HERMAN: It`s going to be extremely difficult to enforce that order. He`s in Bahrain right now with the children. And you know, Nancy? Tom Mesereau referred to as a breeder.

She made a deal to have his children, get paid for it, and waive her parental rights. And as Pat Lalama just told us, during the course of the trial, she reneged on testimony or discussions she had with the government, completely flipped to try and get in his good graces. She has zero credibility, zero.

GRACE: Well, you know what? That`s funny. Because I think, during the Michael Jackson trial, when she testified on his behalf, you told us how credible she was and what a great witness she was. So you`re certainly doing an about-face today, Richard Herman. And P.S., that was Debra Opri that referred to Rowe as a breeder.

I`m not disagreeing with you regarding her testimony, but at the time, when it suited you as a defense attorney, you loved her testimony. Now you`re using it against her.

HERMAN: Nancy, what kind of human being waives parental privileges to get a few dollars in her pocket and doesn`t want to see her own children? It`s outrageous.

GRACE: Well, maybe I`m crazy, but, Lauren Lake, aren`t these papers designed, this lawsuit, this custody battle, designed to get the children back?

LAKE: Look, Debbie Rowe -- you can see me; I`m getting going -- Debbie Rowe does not want those kids. Hello, can we just admit it? She sold the kids. That is the cut and dry of it.

All she wants to do is keep her money train on the track. And who is Debbie Rowe without Michael Jackson and those kids? Nobody. She wants to get by the fireplace on another special and have a little dreamy lighting and talk. She needs to go somewhere and sit down, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. OK. I`m asking about the papers and what effect they will have in Bahrain.

LAKE: Nothing!

GRACE: But let me switch gears quickly. To Pat Lalama, what about the money? Very quickly, before we go to break.

LALAMA: Well, which money? Are we talking about his financial...

GRACE: The millions of dollars in debt, the $272 million loan package.

LALAMA: Well, right now, he is on his last string, begging and pleading with the investment company to just give him more time, you know, maybe he`s hoping a fairy godmother will come down from heaven and get him some money. But let me tell you: He doesn`t have a lot of cash, and he may have to give up his half of the Beatle catalog unless this company says, "All right, Michael, we`re going to trust you." But I don`t know how many friends he`s got left. I mean, really.

GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much: It`s already -- the deadline was yesterday.

LALAMA: Right.

GRACE: If you and I didn`t make our loans on time, we`d probably be out on the sidewalk in a paper box.

LALAMA: Oh, absolutely.

GRACE: OK, very quickly, to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Sukhrob Davronov, wanted in connection with the May 2005 murder of 30-year-old Adiljan Ifamov (ph).

Davronov, 31, 5`9", 165 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. Take a look. If you have information, please contact the FBI, 312-431-1333.

Local news next for some of you. But all of us will be right back. And, remember, coverage of the Saddam Hussein trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Please stay with us tonight as we remember, we remember Marine Staff Sergeant Kenneth B. Pospisil, 35, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We here at NANCY GRACE want to do out part to help the very neediest this holiday season. Please go to the Red Cross. For information, you can dial, toll-free, 1-800-GIVE-LIFE. Or you can go online, www.givelife.org. Please, remember the neediest, along with us, this holiday season.

We are taking you now across the country and the latest in the Michael Jackson saga, as it goes on. So, Brian Oxman, not only do you seem very unconcerned about the fact his ex-wife is filing papers, saying he`s kidnapped children, what about that $272 million debt? Ouch.

OXMAN: Nancy, I`ve represented the Jacksons, and Randy`s divorce, Tito, Jermaine, LaToya, Michael. I`ve had six divorces in this family. I`ve seen it all, I`ve heard it all.

There`s always these reports of financial disaster taking place. And you know something? It`s never happened. For 15 years, we`ve heard these reports. It`s never happened. And as we talk right now today, Michael is doing fine. Everything is status quo. And I expect that`s going to be as we see as the weeks pass the same thing.

GRACE: Brian, are the children actually in Bahrain?

OXMAN: The children have been going between the United States and Bahrain. It is a passage of time where they`re there at one point and they come to the U.S. at another point.

GRACE: Are they supposed to have any visits with their mom at all?

OXMAN: I think you`re going to have to rely upon the news reports that are surfacing regarding this, because there`s a confidentiality agreement between these people. When I get into these divorce cases, you can`t violate an agreement between the parties to keep the proceedings confidential. And, in this case, there`s a confidentiality clause. You`re going to have to rely on all of these really unreliable reports that you`re hearing in the press.

GRACE: OK. Well, I guess we can rely on court documents that have been filed. Thank you to Brian Oxman, Jackson family attorney.

But I want to thank all of our guests tonight. Tonight, like every night, our biggest thank you is to you for inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, I hope. And until tomorrow, good night, friend.

END