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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Rumsfeld Announces Troop Reductions; Iraqis Demand a Recount; Secret Search for Dirty Bombs Revealed; Congressional Critics Question Wiretapping Program; 2005 a Rough Year for President; Memo Shows Alito's Views on Wiretapping; Congress Slashes Emergency Heating Program; Mexico Extradites Murder Suspect to U.S.; Congressman Debate Border Fence; Illegal Immigrants Affect Politics Despite Status; Fierce Legislative Battles Raged This Week; Clarence McKay Winners Honored
Aired December 23, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Wolf.
Good evening, everybody.
Tonight, some of our troops are leaving Iraq, but when will the rest come home? We'll go live to the Pentagon.
Plus, a secret government spying program to prevent a possible dirty bomb attack in this country.
Also, the fight to build a fence along our southern border. Two congressmen on opposite sides of the debate will join me.
And outrage after Congress slashes a program to help low income Americans pay their heating bills.
We begin tonight with news of the first major U.S. troop withdrawals from Iraq. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declared the number of combat brigades in Iraq will be reduced from 17 to 15. His announcement comes just days after Rumsfeld signed an order to cut the number of U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
Barbara Starr reports from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lull in violence is over. Northeast of Baghdad, nearly a dozen Iraqis killed and others wounded when a suicide bomber rode his bicycle into the courtyard of a mosque.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made it official: the first real reduction in troop levels. It's fairly modest. Two Army brigades, 7,500 troops have had their orders for Iraq canceled.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Because the conditions here in Iraq have evolved favorably, we've made a decision to reduce our brigades from 17 to 15 and to increase some of our assistance to the training and equipping of the Iraqi security forces. STARR: Even so, the current expectation is there will still be close to 100,000 U.S. troops in Iraq through most of the coming year. And even those units that shift from combat to training Iraqi forces will still find much of Iraq a war zone.
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, U.S. COMMANDER, IRAQ: It's just a start here. And this is going to be a measured and gradual process here that's going to play out over the next year or two.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: Kitty, senior defense officials say that U.S. troop levels in Iraq will now be reviewed every three or four months, but they insist that that is not in response to domestic political pressure, rather to pressure the Iraqis to train their security forces and take more responsibility more quickly for security in their country -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Barbara Starr.
Well, as Barbara just mentioned, U.S. troop withdrawals do depend how soon the Iraqi army and the police can take up the job of fighting the insurgents and keeping the peace. But there are serious doubts about the quality of those soldiers and policemen.
Aneesh Raman reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Any further reduction in U.S. Troops in Iraq is wholly dependent on the success of Iraqi security forces. The Pentagon says there are over 216,000 trained and equipped Iraqi troops and that 30 bases have either been closed or handed over to the Iraqis.
But a big issue next year will be evening out the effectiveness of Iraqi security forces. There is a great disparity on the ground between those that are able to conduct independent operations. The Pentagon puts that at around one battalion. And those who are literally training on the front lines.
Now another key factor will be a government, a country that Iraqi security forces are motivated and willing to fight for. On that front, troubling political news: voter fraud being alleged by virtually all of the major parties involved in the recent parliamentary elections. Thousands of Sunnis pouring out onto the streets today, demanding a new election take place.
Iraq's electoral commission says it's received over 1,000 complaints. And because they are looking into those, no final results will be announced until next year.
Now, this controversy was sparked after the religious Shia list got a huge number of seats based on those preliminary results. This is a list that is more religious than the others. It is closely aligned to Iran. The U.S., of course, had hoped for a more secular democracy in government to take root here, mainly to curb the violence.
Violence continued again today. Eighteen Iraqis killed in a number of incidents throughout the country. Nine of them died after a suicide bomber detonated north of the capital outside of a Shiite mosque.
Also two U.S. soldiers, the military announced, were killed. They were both members of Task Force Liberty. Killed after an improvised explosive device detonated while they were on patrol.
Aneesh Raman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: An Italian judge has issued a Europe-wide arrest warrant for 22 suspected CIA agents. Now prosecutors says the agents are wanted for the alleged kidnapping of a radical Islamic cleric in Iran in 2003. The Italians say the CIA flew the cleric to Egypt for questioning.
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has a different view of the case. He does not believe the CIA agents kidnapped the cleric, and he also says the government won't defeat terrorism by playing by the rules.
Well, government officials have told CNN about a secret spying program in this country to prevent a terrorist dirty bomb attack. Federal agents monitored predominantly Muslim areas for suspicious radiation levels in at least six major cities.
Jeanne Meserve reports -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: ... and shortly after 9/11 more than 100 Muslim sites in the greater Washington area, including mosques, businesses and homes, have been monitored for radiation by the FBI, with the support of the Energy Department's nuclear emergency support teams.
It was done without search warrant or court orders. Officials say those were not needed, because the monitoring was done outside from areas they define as public places, like parking lots.
FBI officials deny that Muslim locations are being targeted, a spokesman saying all investigations and operations conducted by the FBI are intelligence driven and predicated on specific information about potential criminal acts or terrorist threats and are conducted in strict conformance with federal law.
But the Counsel on American-Islamic Relations called it a step towards a two-tiered justice system, with fewer rights for Muslims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIHAD AWAD, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: I'm afraid that we're moving into a nation of fear that that's led by fear, governed by fear, and just, you know, scapegoating minorities like the American Muslim community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Although the bulk of the monitoring was done in Washington, locations in New York, Chicago, Las Vegas, and Seattle were also checked out, according to sources. The aim: to find any radiological material that might be used by terrorists to build a dirty bomb, the scenario the government officials call their worst fear.
And Kitty, an amendment to the -- an addition to the FBI statement tonight. They said they were disappointed in CARE's reaction, that FBI agents will be working over the holidays in Cincinnati, for instance, to investigate the bombing of a local mosque there -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Jeanne Meserve.
Well, new charges tonight that President Bush did not have the authority to order secret wiretaps in this country. Former Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle, weighed in today. And he says the subject of wiretaps without court warrants never came up in negotiations with the White House.
Andrea Koppel reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the nation still reeling just days after the 9/11 attacks, Congress authorized President Bush to use all necessary and appropriate force to go after those responsible, authority Mr. Bush claimed just this week gave him a power to sign off on secret wiretaps of American citizens.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do I have the legal authority to do this? And the answer is absolutely. As I mentioned in my remarks, the legal authority is derived from the Constitution, as well as the authorization of force by the United States Congress.
KOPPEL: But in an op-ed in Friday's "Washington Post," Tom Daschle, the former Democratic leader of the Senate, challenged Mr. Bush's claim, writing, quote, "I did not and never would have supported giving authority to the president for such wiretaps. The president should explain the specific legal justification for his authorization of these actions."
It appears that's exactly what the Bush administration is trying to do. Just hours after Mr. Bush left the White House Thursday to start his Christmas vacation, the Department of Justice fired off a five-page letter to the leaders of congressional intelligence committees, asserting the wiretapping is, quote, "crucial to our national security." The letter argues that the nation's security trumps privacy concerns of individuals targeted for eavesdropping by the government. Critics say the Bush White House had other tools it could have relied on. It could have requested warrants from a secret intelligence court located in the Justice Department. Or it could have turned to the Patriot Act.
LISA GRAVES, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: No president has taken such an expansive view of presidential power since President Nixon. We should not return to those dark days. Congress needs to conduct thorough probing investigations into this matter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: But it is unclear if and when that will happen. Before adjourning for the year, House Democrats called for an independent panel to investigate, while in the Senate some Democrats are accusing Bush of slighting the law. Senator Russ Feingold for one says the president is playing, in his words, "fast and loose with the law."
But the Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, has cautioned his colleagues not to rush to judgment -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Andrea Koppel. Thanks, Andrea.
Still to come, critics say President Bush has had a terrible year. Has the president spent all his political capital?
Plus, new information about the record of Supreme Court nominee Judge Samuel Alito.
And an uproar over cuts in a government program to help America's neediest families with their heating bills. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The White House hopes the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq will help boost the president's numbers, his poll numbers. And the president's approval ratings also depend on success at home. But critics say the president has had a terrible year, particularly with his domestic agenda.
Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While President Bush summed up the year this way...
BUSH: This has been a year of strong progress toward a freer, more peaceful world and a prosperous America.
MALVEAUX: ... some political analysts have a dramatically different take.
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This was a grueling and brutal year for the president. DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISOR: if you look at the year in total, it's been a bad one for him.
BUSH: Do solemnly swear.
MALVEAUX: Last November, when President Bush seized the White House for a second term, he declared his 51 percent win a mandate and projected an air of invincibility.
BUSH: I earned capital in the campaign, political capital. And now I intend to spend it.
MALVEAUX: Early on he did have a series of legislative successes with agreements on free trade, energy and transportation. But by midyear, the centerpiece of his domestic agenda, Social Security reform, failed.
As gas prices rose, Mr. Bush's approval numbers fell.
CINDY SHEEHAN, MOTHER OF KILLED SERVICEMAN: We as Americans...
MALVEAUX: And during his normally quiet summer vacation, Mr. Bush didn't get a break, as protest mom Cindy Sheehan kept the heat on outside his Texas ranch calling for U.S. troops to come home. Hurricane Katrina roared through the Gulf Coast and overwhelmed the administration.
GERGEN: That really was, I think, a moment of extreme disappointment for a lot of Americans.
MALVEAUX: In September the president pushed through his new Supreme Court chief justice, but October brought more bad news. From Iraq, a grim milestone of 2,000 Americans dead. In Washington, the indictment and resignation of one of his top advisors, Scooter Libby, stemming from the CIA leak investigation.
And at the White House, his Supreme Court pick, Harriet Miers, forced to withdraw after conservatives pulled their support.
BROWNSTEIN: The president suffered an almost uninterrupted series of reversals and missteps in 2005.
MALVEAUX: Even overseas, in November Mr. Bush was bombarded in South America and Asia with questions over his administration's positions on secret detention sites and torture.
GERGEN: A pattern of secrecy, a pattern of perceived or alleged abuse that has really troubled an awful lot of Americans.
BUSH: Millions of people voted.
MALVEAUX: December's landmark elections in Iraq are now overshadowed by the controversy over whether Mr. Bush overstepped his bounds in authorizing a secret domestic spy program.
Heading for the holidays, Mr. Bush seemed to acknowledge the challenges ahead.
BUSH: We got a lot of work to do.
MALVEAUX: Political analysts say Mr. Bush is poised for a come back.
GERGEN: We have a weakened president but a president that's not on the ropes. There's plenty of fight left in this fellow.
BROWNSTEIN: Bloodied but unbowed, they feel that they are in a position to begin to recover in 2006.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And part of that recovery, of course, is to push forward and get modest legislative victories as well as getting his Supreme Court pick confirmed. But both Bush aides and political analysts, Kitty, agree that the wild card will be Iraq -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Suzanne Malveaux.
Well, newly released documents show Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito has supported the right of federal officials to order domestic wiretaps. The documents include a memo Alito wrote while working for the Justice Department in the Reagan administration.
Joining me is our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. And Jeff, what do you make of this memo?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I think it is not that big a deal, to tell you the truth. Because if you look at what the memo is really about, it deals with the question of whether government officials can be sued. Are government officials like the attorney general immune from lawsuits regarding domestic surveillance? The substance of the memo is not really domestic surveillance. It's much more this immunity issue.
PILGRIM: Of course, they're going to try to make it look like it's very much related to the current issue of domestic surveillance.
TOOBIN: Right. And Senator Specter has already written to Judge Alito, saying he wants to hear his views on that subject. Judge Alito has a very good opportunity to do what Supreme Court nominees almost always do, which is duck the question specifically.
PILGRIM: He has no obligation to weigh in, does he?
TOOBIN: He doesn't, and he can say this is being discussed. It's a hot controversial topic. It may somehow come before the court. So beyond certain generalities regarding his view of presidential power, we're not likely to hear a lot from him in his confirmation hearings about the specific controversy that's going on now.
PILGRIM: The timing of this, though, may not be all that good for the president. TOOBIN: Well, you know, what's interesting about Supreme Court hearings is they always tend to reflect what's in the news at that given moment even though Judge Alito may serve 30 years and deal with millions of other issues. Domestic spying is on the agenda. There will be a lot of questions about it.
What is clear from these memos is that Alito believes in a strong president with -- who does not have to kowtow to Congress. But that's what President Bush believes, and that's one reason he got picked.
PILGRIM: Let's move on to one quick thing. This program to surveil mosques for -- and radioactive things in the air whatever that were done on public property but were done in and around mosques. How do you assess this?
TOOBIN: Well, I think you can say almost without fear of contradiction this was a legal operation. Because if government officials are standing in a public area, whether it's on the street, or in a parking lot, any surveillance they do is legal. And this has come up many times in court.
If, for example, an agent wants to take a photograph. You don't need a warrant for that. Sometimes they -- they can check the air. This is one where they're checking the air for nuclear residue of some kind. As long as they don't...
PILGRIM: I think most citizens would like that.
TOOBIN: You know what? I don't think -- this is horrifying to many people. And, you don't need a warrant for it. It's legal. And you know, if some group were targeted simply because of their ethnicity or their race, that might be a question, but if they have any justification to look at a specific place, it's clearly legal.
PILGRIM: Thanks for sorting it out for us, Jeff Toobin.
TOOBIN: All right. Have a nice Christmas.
PILGRIM: You, too.
Well, another story that we're following, a surfer has died off the coast of southern California. That was after trying to navigate massive waves. Now waves as high as 15 feet have been pounding the southern California coastline this week. They're coming from a powerful storm which is 1,000 miles offshore. Now, this surfer went out on his board, despite warnings from officials to stay out of the water.
The waves are subsiding today. But they are still far stronger than normal.
Still ahead, cold hearts on Capitol Hill. Congress completely ignored needy families struggling to heat their homes. We'll have a special report ahead.
Plus it's the United States versus Latin American in the fight over our border fence. Two congressmen on competing sides of the issue will be my guests. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The holiday spirit was nowhere to be found on Capitol Hill this week. Congress went home without offering a dime of new assistance to families struggling to pay the heating bills. In fact, heating assistance was cut.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The politics, hot, and the politicians warmer still up on Capitol Hill. But if you're strapped to pay for heating, Congress has a message for you. There's less money this year to help you with your heating bills.
ROBERT GREENSTEIN, CENTER FOR BUDGET AND POLICY PRIORITIES: What we see in Congress is an increasing lack of understanding on the part of senior policy makers, key leaders, on what it means to hit hard times. What it means to have trouble making ends meet and to be a family working for very low wages.
TUCKER: What was to be a $5 billion program is now a $2 billion program with $200 million less than last winter, and heating costs are skyrocketing.
Whether you heat your home with oil or gas, costs are up dramatically. Home heating oil is up roughly 25 percent over a year ago. Natural gas prices, up about 70 percent.
Officials in Illinois are estimating that it will cost $600 more per month to stay warm this winter. Not surprisingly, requests for help are also on the rise. Nation-wide, requests are already up 10 percent over last year, with the coldest months still to come.
ED HURLEY, ILLINOIS OFFICE OF EMERGENCY ENERGY ASSISTANCE: This crisis does not have a date specific. This is not Katrina. This is not Rita. And I often times say perhaps the crisis begins when you get the first bill. Because we've had an early onset cold, people are beginning to see that bill now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Low income home energy assistance programs in the states like Illinois typically run out of money sometime in March. This year, however, they are in danger of running out of funds as early as the end of next month, Kitty.
PILGRIM: And so are many Americans running out of funds for the heating. Thanks very much, Bill Tucker.
Well if you thought the now infamous bridge to nowhere project in Alaska was dead, think again. Congress voted last month to drop the more than $400 million in funding for the bridges. That's after a public outcry. But Congress didn't take the money away from Alaska. It merely said it shouldn't be used for two bridges to nowhere. Alaska was able to hang on to the cash and to spend it as it sees fit.
Well, in the new state budget, Alaska's governor has, you guessed it, included almost $200 million in state funding to build these two controversial bridges. Now, Alaska's governor says the bridges won't be built as fast under the new arrangement, but he says they will be built.
Still ahead, Mexico's president opposes it. A lot of Americans, however, think differently. Two leading congressmen join me in a battle over a border fence.
Plus President Bush versus Congress. Three of our nation's leading political analysts take a look back at a week of stunning clashes on national security.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Still ahead, will the United States finally build a border fence in 2006? Two congressmen will join me with their outlook, but first, this hour's headlines.
Americans have begun the great holiday getaway. More than 60 million Americans expected to be traveling this weekend for Christmas and Hanukkah celebrations. Most will be heading out by car. AAA expects an almost two percent increase in auto travel this holiday, and that's despite higher gas prices.
A new report says sales of new U.S. homes dropped more than 11 percent last month. That is the largest monthly drop in more than a decade. Now the report is raising new concerns about the health of the U.S. housing market. .
And a very long distance Christmas delivery this holiday season. The unmanned cargo ship Progress docked with the International Space Station today. And the spacecraft carried 2.5 tons of food, books, DVDs and science equipment for the crews.
Well tonight a Mexican illegal alien wanted for the murder of a Denver police officer is about to face justice, American style. Raul Gomez Garcia is in U.S. custody tonight after Mexico finally agreed to his extradition. But there are still thousands of criminal suspects that Mexico refuses to extradite to the United States.
Dan Simon reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a homecoming of a different sort. Twenty-year-old Raul Gomez Garcia arrives in Denver Thursday night amid much fanfare but no seasonal goodwill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let us take leave of our brother, Donnie. SIMON: It's been nearly eight long months since the funeral for police detective Donald Young. The Mexican national allegedly shot and killed him and wounded another officer at a baptismal party in Denver. The motive still not clear.
Raul Gomez Garcia, a dishwasher in Denver, fled to Mexico, where he was arrested in June. Last month the Mexican government approved his extradition back to the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder in the second degree.
SIMON: It only seems right that the Mexican government would extradite its citizens accused of committing crimes like murder while living illegally in the states. But until last month the government there resisted, refusing to hand over suspects who faced life sentences in America's prisons. Mexico still won't extradite its citizens that face the death penalty. But the government has eased restrictions overall for fugitives wanted in the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It almost in all cases they're murder cases.
SIMON: Los Angeles district attorney Steve Cooley says there are an untold amount of fugitives across the border wanted for murder in California. Like the U.S. ambassador in Mexico, Cooley welcomes the country's new stance on extradition but he questions how much effort the Mexican government will exert in locating the fugitives.
STEVE COOLEY, L.A. COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I'm optimistic the law -- now, the law allows for it. I'm less optimistic about whether or not there's a mechanism in place to find these, literally, thousands of fugitives.
SIMON: The case of Raul Gomez Garcia (ph) marks a starting point. The widow of slain officer Donald Young hoping she'll soon get justice.
KELLY YOUNG, MURDERED DETECTIVE'S WIDOW: The biggest thing is, is we want to see him back here, we want to see him go through our justice system.
SIMON: A public defender says she may seek a change of venue for the trial, given the media attention.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON: Kitty, the larger question here is whether other victims and relatives will also have the opportunity to get justice by having their trials on U.S. soil. Of course, that's something that only the Mexican government at this point can answer -- Kitty?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Dan Simon.
Thanks, Dan.
That brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. Now, do you believe any illegal alien criminal suspect who escapes to Mexico should be extradited back to the United States to face American justice? Yes or no?
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast.
Well, the House of Representatives finally got tough on border security last week when it passed the Sensenbrenner bill calling for a sweeping crackdown on illegal aliens. Part of this bill calls for the creation of a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexican border.
Now, this one provision has sparked a major outcry in Mexico, where President Vicente Fox is trying his best to kill this measure and influence the U.S. political process.
Tonight, two congressmen on different sides of the border fence issue.
New York Congressman Pete King joins us tonight from Babylon, New York, and he is the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. And he helped write the Sensenbrenner bill.
And we also have Texas Congressman Henry Cuellar, who joins us tonight from San Antonio, Texas.
And, gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us.
U.S. REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Good to be here.
U.S. REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D), TEXAS: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Let's start with you, Congressman Cuellar.
Why do you oppose the fence? It seems like perhaps with this many illegal aliens pouring over our border year after year, it is a drastic measure but one that's very necessary.
CUELLAR: Well, I've represented the border as a state representative, as the Texas secretary of state and now as a congressman from Laredo, the border area.
I'm familiar with the border. I believe in strong enforcement but at the same time we have to have something that's balanced.
Keep in mind what's happened, Kitty. For decades, the border has been underfunded, has been neglected. We need to be smart in how we protect the border -- more Border Patrol, more electronic technology that we ought to use. But we have to be targeted in the right way to...
PILGRIM: Well, why not both?
CUELLAR: Well, because the fence is not going to work.
Look at the Great Wall of China. Look what the French did with the Germans in World War II. Look at the Berlin Wall.
There are other ways that we can use the couple billion dollars we can use. Imagine if we had a couple billion dollars what we could do with more Border Patrol, more technology, better ways of guarding our border instead of using a wall.
PILGRIM: We are going back in history to call up the Great Wall of China into this debate.
Congressman King, go ahead.
KING: Kitty, I think all of this is need.
We need more Border Patrol, we need more technology.
The bill we passed mandates that the Department of Homeland Security and the Pentagon use all available military technology to seal the border. But also the wall is very important because it's in a very key location. It's essential. It provides the extra assistance that we need.
And I think it's wrong to compare it to the Berlin Wall. The Berlin Wall was to keep people in. This is to keep people out.
And quite frankly, I think it helps the Mexican government when you think of all the innocent Mexicans who die in the desert, who die trying to come across the border.
To me, this is the extra assistance that the Border Patrol needs.
So I don't think it's one or the other. I think we need overall immigration reform. But we can't do any of that until we seal the border. And I think the wall is an integral part of that protection that we need.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about U.S. domestic policy and how we have some considerable interference from Mexico at this point on things that really should be the concern of our own legislators.
How do you feel about that, Congressman Cuellar?
CUELLAR: Well, first of all, I understand the President Fox's, Mexico's president concern about this.
But at the same time, I feel very strongly, and I believe the chairman agrees with me on this point, that Mexico needs to do more to help us guard our borders.
You know, we have worked with Mexico on so many other issues. We worked on the CAFTA agreement that's a -- the trade agreement that we had with CAFTA. I supported that trade agreement.
But to put a wall, it's a wrong message.
Now, the Mexican president needs to work with us. And we need to make sure that we keep one thing in mind, that the Rio Grande which is on the U.S.-Mexico border does not divide us but it actually unites us.
And we need to work with them. They need to work with us also.
PILGRIM: But they haven't so far and so then we're at this impasse.
Congressman King?
KING: Well, Henry is right. He and I actually agree on a number of things, and especially on this issue of President Fox.
It's wrong for him to be criticizing the United States. He has not been cooperating with us very much at all on the issue of immigration. We actually have signs or evidence where the Mexican government actually hands out booklets showing their citizens how they can make it across the border, what they should do when they get to the other side, how they can get social services, what they should so.
So the president of Mexico, President Fox is really, I believe, falling down on the job.
And it's really wrong for him to be attacking the United States the way he is. I think if he's serious, he should be cooperating with us a lot more rather than just sitting back and being negative and being critical. It's really out of line.
PILGRIM: The fact is that Mexico relies very heavily on the money that comes back from illegal aliens working in this country that they send back home. And Mexico is addicted to those remittances.
What have you to say about that, Congressman Cuellar, there's an economic incentive not to fix this on the part of Mexico?
CUELLAR: Well, without a doubt.
If you look at the largest income that goes into Mexico, first it's oil from their petroleum and then number two -- it used to be tourism -- now it's the money that comes in from the undocumented workers that we have in the United States that send that money to Mexico.
Mexico has an economic reason to cooperate with us. The wall is not the -- I respectfully disagree with my chairman. The wall is not the way.
But I think we can -- next year we can put some provisions to get the Mexicans to work with us and cooperate with us because it's a shared problem.
It's not our problem by ourselves. It's also the Mexicans' problems to make sure that we work together to address this true immigration reform that we need.
PILGRIM: Congressman King, given the rhetoric that's coming out of Mexico at this point, cooperation is anything but on their minds.
KING: Right now it seems that President Fox does not want to cooperate. But he's going to have to cooperate because this is a short-term benefit he's getting of illegal Mexican workers sending money back into Mexico.
If Mexico is going to thrive, as Henry said, CAFTA and NAFTA, all these agreements have to be enforced. There has to be work. There has to be free trade. There has to be an economic cooperation and border agreement.
I mean, President Fox has to realize that he can't look the other way as millions of his people are streaming across the border violating the law and really doing it with impunity.
So there has to be more cooperation from Mexico, and right now I am really disappointed in President Fox. He is not stepping up to the plate at all.
PILGRIM: On that one point I think we can all agree.
Thank you very much for being with us, Congressman Henry Cuellar and Congressman Peter King. Thank you, gentlemen.
KING: Merry Christmas, Henry.
CUELLAR: Merry Christmas, Mr. Chairman.
PILGRIM: All right.
There are new fears tonight that the illegal alien crisis is weakening our country's bedrock notion of one person, one vote. Now border states with large illegal alien populations will soon gain major political clout if nothing is done to stop a growing threat to our democratic system.
Louise Schiavone reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The political power of the United States is on course for a major change due in large part to a population that can't even vote, namely illegal immigrants.
CLARK BENSEN, POLIDATA: If the fight is that every person because they're here and they participate in the United States way of life, whether or not they vote, whether or not they're legal or whatever, well, then you'd have to include non-citizens in because they are, in fact, inhabitants of the country, they do reside here.
SCHIAVONE: The freshly released 2005 Census Bureau population estimate is politically good news for states in the South and Southwest, because the higher a state's population, the greater the number of congressional seats.
So far, the Census estimate rates the population winners this way. Nevada registered the fastest population growth rate, with 82,000 more people; 11,000 of whom were classified as international migrants. The Census does not distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants. Arizona's growth rate was number two, up 200,000 people, 28,000 international migrants.
Texas and Florida were big winners, too -- Texas up 388,000 with 110,000 international migrants, and Florida gained 404,000 new residents, 87,000 of whom came from other countries.
And these immigrants are shaping the nation's political future.
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Just tolerating widespread illegal immigration has broad ranging effects on our society that did go well beyond the usual discussion about jobs and welfare and so forth, and one of those impacts is on the reapportionment of House seats.
SCHIAVONE: Former big population hubs in the Northeast and Midwest are losing ground, the state of New York among them. Massachusetts and Rhode Island lost several thousand citizens, too.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Kitty, the next adjustment in congressional seats will be based on the 2010 census. That's still five years away. And as the nation saw after Hurricane Katrina, populations can shift dramatically and without warning -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Louise Schiavone. Thanks, Louise.
Well, just ahead, the Bush administration loses the fight to make the Patriot Act permanent, while for now, three of our country's top political minds join us next to talk about that.
And our weekly salute to our nation's heroes. How two American troops rescued the crew of a downed helicopter in Iraq. Stay with us for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: This week started on a positive note for President Bush, when his approval ratings rose from all-time lows, but then the fierce legislative battles on Capitol Hill quashed any positive momentum for the White House.
So joining me are three of our country's top political commentators: John Fund of "The Wall Street Journal" joins us; Jeff Greenfield, our senior analyst; and the former adviser to four presidents, David Gergen. And thank you all for being here. I don't know any people I would rather kick around a week like this with.
Let's start with the tough legislative climate, the Patriot Act and where we stood on that. There were a couple of surprise turns. It was turning into quite a soap opera. Let's start with you, Jeff.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: I think this is a bank shot. I think some of the reaction to the story of the warrantless eavesdropping on the NSA probably pushed just enough Republicans, the people who we actually talked about a week or so again, the more libertarian conservatives, the ones who were suspicious of big government no matter what, to a position where they were saying, you know, we better think about all this.
And I think the effort to say we have got to pass this Patriot Act completely, we're not going to let them be extended for a little while, it didn't have enough support, given the climate created I think by that other story.
PILGRIM: David, you know, Jeff brings out this point, this wait a second moment that we had in Washington. Do you think it will hold? Or will it just go away after Christmas?
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: I think the extension fight really underscores that the president, despite his gains these last few weeks, remaining wounded at the end of the year, and will enter the new year, I think, still wounded.
After all, the new year starts in less than three weeks. Congress comes back for the Alito hearings in less than three weeks. And it was only three or four weeks ago the president has said -- stood firmly on the torture question. I will not, we cannot, we must not tie my hands. John McCain led the fight; the president signed it.
The president then said, I will not accept this short-term extension of the Patriot bill. We must have it by December 31st. Now he's signing it. That's been a pattern that I think must worry the White House as they look ahead to next year, which is going to be a tough year for them.
PILGRIM: And we've had a tough time in the domestic issues, a pretty good time in international with the Iraqi elections going off reasonably well.
JOHN FUND, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": If there was no fraud.
PILGRIM: If there was no fraud, right.
FUND: And that's going to be one of the problems. On the Patriot Act, I think both parties are very, very nervous about how it plays. The White House certainly was hurt by the national security wiretap story, although the facts are still very murky.
But the Democrats were also nervous because they didn't want to feel as if they were completely opposing it, because the president is always stronger when he's playing in his home court. And remember, we haven't had a terrorist attack in this country for four years. There is no (INAUDIBLE) to that. So if the president could say, there has been no terrorist attack because of the Patriot Act actions that I took, that does put the Democrats on the defensive. Both sides are nervous.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about the spending cuts, because that seems particularly egregious. You know, Medicaid, student loans, child support enforcement, the heating we just reported on the assistance to heating. This seems extremely mean-spirited. GREENFIELD: Well, there are two points to that, it seems to me. One is when you realize that, what is it, 90 percent of the federal budget is more or less untouchable -- defense, entitlement, interest on the debt. If you want to cut the budget, you're talking about cutting the budget from 10 percent. And you have got a -- you have a Republican Congress that tends to be more suspicious of that kind of spending.
The other point I would make really quickly is this is $40 billion, John, over four or five years in -- what is the budget, 2.5 ...
FUND: It is .2 percent of the budget.
GREENFIELD: And my point is, the idea that this represents a blow for fiscal discipline, when you realize that the oldest baby boomers are going to turn 60 in about -- start turning 60 in about eight days...
FUND: January 1st, yes.
GREENFIELD: And in five years, they're all going to be retiring and going on Medicare. The idea that this comes to grips with the tsunami of fiscal dilemmas that the United States is facing would be funny if it wasn't so unfunny.
PILGRIM: But some poor kid who has -- depends on the student loan program is...
FUND: Well, let's be clear. These cuts aren't really cuts. They are decreases in the rate of increase. The federal budget has been going up 8 or 9 percent a year the last few years. A spendthrift Congress and White House. Inflation has been 3 percent. So the federal budget continues to grow faster than inflation and population. So let's put these cuts in perspective.
PILGRIM: David, weigh in here.
GERGEN: OK, the only problem I have with what John just said is that for kids trying to go to college, we know that tuitions are going up around the country much faster than inflation. And for -- to cut the student loan program for colleges is to me stunningly bad policy, because at the very moment we're doing this, we also face a competitiveness problem from China, India and other countries. And we have to get people trained up in order to face that, in order to hold jobs of the future.
And you know, on the one hand, the Congress, the White House is saying, yes, we've really got to face this competitiveness challenge. On the other hand, they're taking money away from universities.
FUND: David...
GERGEN: That does not seem to be
(CROSSTALK) FUND: I realize you're sitting in a very prestigious university. But let's be clear, tuition is going up a lot, because, frankly, there's a lot of goldbricking and a lot of feather-bedding at universities. Maybe we should address the costs of the university rather than the student loan program.
PILGRIM: Well, let me defend him a bit. The funding increase from science and math was 8 billion, and they only got four billion. They got about half of what the Senate was asking for.
FUND: I would love to compete out some of the universities to some private entities, and see if we can reduce the costs. The tuition costs have been unconscionable, and if you actually look at how much professors work, I don't think you really want go to 10- or 15-hour a day weeks -- weeks that they put in.
GREENFIELD: If you indeed read (ph) "The Wall Street Journal." But I do...
PILGRIM: We better wrap this, guys, they're telling me.
GREENFIELD: OK. The quickest point I want to make about this, is that in all of these areas, there is absolute unwillingness to address structural reasons for these costs. I don't care if it's education, Medicare, Social Security. It's across the board. And at some point, we're going to hit a brick wall. And it's coming sooner rather than later.
PILGRIM: David, last shot. Go ahead.
GERGEN: With all due respect, of course the universities ought to tighten up, but we still have to invest in science and technology, if we're going to compete. And we are doing this, trying to do this on the cheap, and we're going to get our heads handed to us, and our kids are going to get punished because of this, because of the shortsightedness of refusing to build ourselves up in math, science, and technology, and taking the Chinese and Indians on head on in this country. We can compete, but we cannot do it with one hand tied behind our back.
PILGRIM: David, we've got to go here. Made your point.
GERGEN: Thanks, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thank you. OK. Gentlemen, always a pleasure. John Fund, David Gergen, Jeff Greenfield. Thank you, sir.
Coming up at the top of the hour here on CNN, "SITUATION ROOM," Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: A dramatic new turn in the death penalty debate. Will scientists now prove that an executed convict actually was innocent? This is a remarkable story. The implications could be enormous.
Plus, closed for Christmas. Are some churches actually shutting their doors this Sunday for Christ or for convenience?
And he's been quiet for some time about his role in the CIA leak case. Now Robert Novak, he'll join us for a special interview on that still open investigation and the close of his 25-year career here at CNN. It's all ahead, Kitty, right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
PILGRIM: Thanks, Wolf. President Bush has given two Tennessee men extra reason to celebrate this holiday season. He pardoned them -- he pardoned them on decades-old charges related to selling moonshine. Now, the men were busted years ago on a liquor law violation, but one of them said he never meant to sell the moonshine; he just wanted to drink it himself. And he says he's so grateful for the pardon he might even think about becoming a Republican. How about that?
Still to come, heroes, two Air Force captains honored for a daring rescue operation in Iraq. We'll have the remarkable story next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now our weekly tribute to the men and women serving this nation overseas. Tonight we honor this year's winner of the prestigious Clarence McKay Aviation trophy.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Air Force captains, Brian Creel and Robert Wrinkle, have trained for years for this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today we have the heroes from the two HH60 crews being awarded the prestigious McKay trophy for the most meritorious flight of the year. A flight that occurred April 16, 2004.
WIAN: As combat search and rescue pilots, it was the rescue of a lifetime. A Chinook helicopter crashed in a sandstorm, five soldiers on board. Creel and Wrinkle were tapped to lead a mission to rescue or recover.
CAPT. BRYAN CREEL, U.S. AIR FORCE: It was tense. Previous experience with some sandstorms in Afghanistan was not good. So had some hesitation there.
WIAN: Each flew a Pave Hawk Helicopter with a team of rescuers on board. They navigated through hostile territory, found the crash site and spotted survivors.
CAPT. ROBERT WRINKLE, U.S. AIR FORCE: They were all huddled together. They were waiting on us. They had their radio out trying to communicate with us, unfortunately it wasn't working. We couldn't get communications with them until we actually landed. The wreckage was only 500 meters away. So that is about five football fields away. We couldn't see it because the visibility was so bad. WIAN: Flying under the vicious sandstorm with no visibility Creel and Wrinkle made two harrowing approaches, knowing they, too, could crash at any time.
CREEL: I was using an infrared light to shine out in front to where we could actually see where we were going. As soon as I got down, I centered all the controls, and I looked up to about where we're standing right here, and there were the survivors no more than about 25 yards away.
WIAN: Wrinkle landed safely as well. The survivors luckily weren't injured and were quickly picked up. But back in the air they came under attack.
WRINKLE: As I'm descending down and turning behind that tree line, P.J. on the right side. Matt he seized what we believe to be an RPG go out the right-hand side. It was on a straight trajectory missing the aircraft. In that turn and almost immediately Sergeant Silver (ph), out my gunners window, he sees two corkscrews come up from that town behind him and come toward the aircraft.
Those having missed, we turned to the north to try to get some separation. Now everybody is up in the cabin looking outside to our rear to see if they can see anything coming. Sergeant Silver is now leaning out this window to look to the rear. And they identify two more corkscrews coming up out of that town.
WIAN: They fired 50 caliber weapons at the enemy on the ground. The missiles missed, and they finally made it to safety.
CREEL: I have flown in desert storm, flown in Afghanistan, flown in Iraq a couple times as far as deployments. And this one definitely was the top one, I would say if you want to call it that just based on the environmental factors that we had and the challenges and also the enemy was out there in force trying to bring us down.
WIAN: As McKay trophy winners, Creel, Wrinkle and their teams join the likes of Chuck Yeager and James Doolittle in aviation lore.
Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Congratulations to two real heroes.
Still ahead the results of our poll. Some holiday greetings from our troops. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. Eighty-nine percent of you said illegal alien criminal suspects who escape to Mexico should be extradited back to the United States.
Finally holiday greetings from our troops. Each night we share the thoughts of some of the men and women serving our nation overseas. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...stationed in Djibouti, Africa. I wanted to wish my mom and dad and everyone in Kentucky, happy holidays. I love you guys and I miss you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is sergeant Sean McCord (ph) from Iraq. I would like to say happy holidays to my family and friends in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Happy holidays mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Michael Fletcher, and I'm here in Iraq. I would like to take this time to wish my family in Buffalo a Merry Christmas and happy holidays.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm special Snagro (ph). I'm here in Iraq. I would like to say happy holidays and hi to my husband and my kids in Texas. I love you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, this is Major Jim Richie (ph) stationed with the 96 civil affairs with Djibouti, Africa. I want to wish my wife, Mary Ellen, my daughter, Katie, and my son, Allen (ph) in Whiting, New Jersey. I love you and miss you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, my name is Fester Piggies (ph). I'm in Kabul, Afghanistan. I want to say hello to my family, and I love you back in Oxford, Mississippi. Happy holidays.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: We wish them our very best.
And that is our show for tonight. Good night from New York. "The Situation Room" starts right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Kitty.
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