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Nancy Grace
Wendy Glass and her lover, Larry Framness, have been convicted of unsuccessfully attempting to murder her husband, James Glass, three times.
Aired December 26, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, imagine your own wife plotting, scheming to murder you so she can live happily ever after with her new boyfriend off your money. The brand-new boyfriend bugged (ph) up in your house, raising your kids? Oh, no! A love triangle literally blown apart with a grenade. After multiple attempts to kill the man who stood in their way, her husband, the two have a date with Lady Justice. Tonight, Wendy Glass, the day before she heads to prison, and the husband she tried to murder, James Glass.
Tonight, with us, an all-star panel lined up to break it down and put it back together again. Here in the studio with me, high-profile criminal defense attorney David Schwartz, ready for legal battle. Also with me, New York psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig. And joining me from the Seattle jurisdiction, Anne Bremner, a veteran trial lawyer, knows her way around the courtroom.
Now let`s get down to it. When you think of murder one, you have a picture in your head of an evil plot, a scheme. This woman, Wendy Glass, didn`t even have a traffic ticket. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WENDY GLASS, PLOTTED WITH LOVER TO KILL HUSBAND: I have no criminal history at all. I`m a very abiding citizen. I was convinced that the only thing to do was to kill my husband, by my lover. It was something that I had eventually put a stop to, but things turned out the way they did, and here I sit today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: How is it that a guy you`re sleeping with could convince you to try to kill the father of your children? I mean, I don`t understand how that kind of brainwashing could happen to a woman, an educated lady like yourself. You`ve got no criminal history whatsoever. I don`t understand how, in your right mind -- and this is a three-time attempt. There were the two attempts to get him to drive over a cliff. Then there was the attempt with a grenade. He lived, thank God, or you`d be looking at a murder charge right now.
But what I don`t understand is how you could be convinced -- how did this happen -- to murder the father of your children?
WENDY GLASS: It came from a lot of depression. My mom had died. Houston refused to be there for me when my mom died. We had a bad relationship for several years. He was verbally and mentally abusive. And I had a suicide attempt. My mom died. He refused to be there. And I just -- something happened to me. I just -- I just started listening to the wrong thing, and one thing led to another and there was a grenade thrown.
GRACE: OK, you know what? I`m interested in that portion of "one thing led to another," OK? When you say one thing led to another and a grenade was thrown, I think you`re leaving something out. I want to go back to -- you`ve got two kids by this guy. Did he ever beat you or torture you in any way?
WENDY GLASS: No, he never beat me. That was part of the marriage that he never did. He had no problems abusing me mentally, telling me that I was, you know, stupid, dumb, things like that. He had no problems throwing whatever was nearest to him at me. There`s many forms of abuse, and different women take it differently. And it had gone on for years, and like I say, I think the straw that broke the camel`s back was when he refused to be there for me when my mom died.
GRACE: And that made you want to kill him?
WENDY GLASS: No, but what little bit of respect I had left for him went that day.
GRACE: Did you ever think of divorce?
WENDY GLASS: Yes. I had mentioned it to Houston several times. I said, It`s only fair to get a divorce before we completely hate each other. He was completely against the idea of getting a divorce because, you know, he`s a warrant officer in the Marine Corps.
GRACE: Well, Wendy, you know, there are a lot of people -- a lot of marriages where one person wants to divorce, the other doesn`t, and they get the divorce. So did you ever consider calling a lawyer to get a divorce? I mean, how did you suddenly get from zero to 100 mph, where you`re murdering your husband?
WENDY GLASS: I have always tried to help Houston with his career, and I would never do anything that would hurt his career.
GRACE: Like murder him?
WENDY GLASS: If I had ever...
GRACE: Wendy, I think murdering him would hurt his career, OK? You know what, I got a feeling that you are not confronting what actually happened. Do you think that`s true?
WENDY GLASS: No. I know I did something wrong. I know I plotted against my husband. I know I stopped it. And I know Larry took it into his own hands to throw the grenade. So I have confronted it, and I`m going to prison for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: David Schwartz, this is what aiding and abetting, party to a crime, is all about. She needs just as stiff of a sentence as her lover gets.
DAVID SCHWARTZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, what act in further answer of this conspiracy did she partake in? Did she throw the hand grenade? Was she controlling the whole world from her San Diego home? She`s controlling what`s happening on the battlefield out in Kuwait? It makes no logical sense, Nancy!
GRACE: You know, David, you`re a very...
SCHWARTZ: If I were defending this case -- you know, it was a joke. Yes, she was sending e-mails to her lover back and forth. Yes, yes, she was plotting against her husband, but she never did an act in furtherance of that.
GRACE: You`re conveniently skipping over the first two murder attempts, where she gave her husband GHB, gamma hydroxybutyrate, and planned to drive him over a cliff, got him in the car, poisoned him and went to the cliff, all right, and then backed out. And both those times, this getaway second honeymoon they were going to have, there`s the lover, waiting in the shadows, waiting for him to die. That is a substantial furtherance in the crime.
SCHWARTZ: Nancy, you just answered your own question. Where was the furtherance? Yes, she drove him to the cliff, but...
GRACE: She poisoned him.
SCHWARTZ: ... but did she -- she didn`t poison him. She gave him a date rape. That`s not poison.
GRACE: OK, wait a minute...
SCHWARTZ: It`s a date rape drug.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Anne Bremner is joining us from the Seattle jurisdiction. Anne, correct me if I`m wrong, but gamma hydroxybutyrate...
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: ... GHB, known as the date rape drug, is basically a poison that knocks you out so the perpetrator can have their way with you.
BREMNER: That`s exactly right, Nancy. It`s far worse than a lot of alcohol, which was their first plan (INAUDIBLE) too drunk and go off the cliff. This would kill him. They planned to use the GHB. And the other act in furtherance of the conspiracy to kill was her luring him into that guard shack on the cell phone so that the grenade could be thrown. You know, she -- you`re in for a dime, you`re in for a dollar with a conspiracy. You know, lightning doesn`t strike three times. Three times!
GRACE: And the...
BREMNER: You know, he`s like Rasputin. He wouldn`t die.
GRACE: And the other thing, David Schwartz, is she said she eventually put a stop to it. Yes, when he was full of shrapnel, lying in the military hospital. That`s when they put a stop to it.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: Am I missing something? She should be punished the same way as Larry should be punished?
GRACE: Yes.
SCHWARTZ: Larry`s the one that threw the grenade.
GRACE: I notice you`re on a first-name basis.
SCHWARTZ: I mean -- I mean, please, Larry threw the hand grenade...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: When did you get on a first-name basis with two defendants?
SCHWARTZ: How could...
GRACE: They`re like your friends.
SCHWARTZ: Oh, come on, Nancy. I mean, Larry Fromner (SIC) -- is -- I can`t pronounce his name.
GRACE: Framness.
SCHWARTZ: Framness. OK. He was the one that was a complete disgrace to the Marines and a complete disgrace to his country in trying to murder his fellow Marine. What did Wendy have to do with that from thousands of miles away from San Diego?
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) Robi, am I hearing second verse same as the first? You`ve got Wendy Glass crying, He made me do it. She`s been in bed with him for months on end while her husband is fighting for his country...
LUDWIG: Right.
GRACE: ... and now is trying to push all the blame off on him. Denial. It ain`t just a river in Egypt.
LUDWIG: Right. And also, she chose this man. So she chose a man that could seal the deal, that could help get rid of a husband who she was enraged with, who didn`t honor her mother`s death by attending the funeral, who wouldn`t give her a divorce. So this was the strong man that was going to protect her by eliminating her husband.
GRACE: When we come back, we`re going to find out and confront Wendy Glass about her two young daughters, how they are coping with their mom behind bars. And meet the man who came face to face with a hand grenade, James Houston Glass.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES GLASS, WIFE AND HER LOVER PLOTTED TO KILL HIM: It`s a blinding white light. It`s a sense of pressure slamming you against the side of the wall, pain, just sand and dirt and blood in your eyes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Remember, Wendy Glass has ended up behind bars for not one, not two, but three attempts to murder her own husband. Now, she claims that when she learned her lover was being deployed to the very same unit in Iraq as her husband, she wasn`t worried. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WENDY GLASS: I was at first until I talked to him and told him that it couldn`t happen, that Houston had to come home alive, that we would -- that I would just pack up and leave. And I told Larry that. I told him that twice. We had two conversations an hour long. And when he said, OK, I assumed he meant OK, the plan is off. I had no idea what he was planning to do.
GRACE: When you heard your husband had been bombed with a grenade, what did you think?
WENDY GLASS: The first day that I was told he was hurt, I had no idea. I thought it was some kind of accident, that something -- you know, I had no idea what was involved until the second day, when I was informed that Larry had thrown the grenade.
GRACE: Now, Larry Framness, your former lover, who actually threw the grenade into the tent with your husband, got 25 years behind bars. You got 7. Why is your sentence so much lighter than his?
WENDY GLASS: I didn`t throw the grenade. I didn`t -- I didn`t plan to throw the grenade. I felt I had stopped him from doing anything that he was going to do. And so I was convicted on the conspiracy of the other two portions of the -- the cliff part, is what I was convicted of.
GRACE: Your husband, Houston, suffered serious, serious injuries, correct?
WENDY GLASS: Yes. He had injuries to his neck, the backs of his legs, and severe injury to his wrist.
GRACE: And how do you feel about that, in retrospect?
WENDY GLASS: Well, it`s a horrible thing knowing that something I started is going to make sure that he has scars for the rest of his life, and it`s hard to deal with.
GRACE: Your two girls, how do you expect them to grow up with any kind of a normal comprehension of family life with this hanging over their heads? I mean, how do you expect these two girls to function normally with their mom behind bars for plotting to kill the dad? You`re not going to be there.
WENDY GLASS: I know I`m not going to be there. And that is the most painful part of the whole thing, is not being there. But they know everything Mommy has taught them, and they will always remember that. And I feel confident that they are going to be fabulous adults.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, Robi, Mommy taught them how to throw a grenade. How`s that going to help them when they start dating?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. That`s not so great. And clearly, she wasn`t thinking about the children when she was making this plan. She was thinking about herself, that she and her lover were acting like adolescents who were just really thinking about, It`s all about me. If we can just have our life the way we want it, then we`ll be happy. Maybe she`s tried to send her children the right message, but children follow what you do, not necessarily what you say.
GRACE: Right. Do as I say, not as I do.
LUDWIG: That`s right.
GRACE: That`s not going to work this time. Let me go to Anne Bremner standing by in Seattle. Anne, if I were the judge in this case, I would send her straight back to the holding cell because she`s still lying.
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: She`s pretending she knew nothing about the grenade, the third attempt on her husband`s life, when she`s -- explain the cell phone call, Anne.
BREMNER: Well, and -- that whole -- you know, what a -- what a coincidence that she -- she wants him in his shack on the cell, phone where he`s going to get better reception. And basically, that`s what occurs. And the plan is then toss the grenade in the guard shack. So she -- you know, in for a dime, in for a dollar means when you`re in a conspiracy -- and she was three times, and including the last time -- then you are as guilty as the principal. But she`s not acknowledging that at all.
GRACE: She`s still saying she didn`t know...
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: ... she had nothing to do with the grenade attempt, that when she heard about him being bombed, she thought it was all in good nature. I guess the Iraqis did it.
Let me go to you, David Schwartz. The realty is, when you go before a judge for sentencing, you better act remorseful and not stand there and pretend, Hey, I don`t know what happened. All I did was sleep with the guy. Next thing I know, my husband`s full of shrapnel. Uh-uh.
SCHWARTZ: Yes, I mean, but you do have to mitigate your circumstances. And I agree with what Robi said, this is adolescent pillow talk, from her standpoint. From her standpoint, there are a bunch of e- mails, there are little love stories going back and forth, but she didn`t know anything about the hand grenade.
BREMNER: Now, wait a minute. What a coincidence that she`s going to have him in that -- in the shack to take the call, and then the grenade comes in there, in the middle of Kuwait, you know? This is not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She`s calling him at, like, 2:00 AM!
SCHWARTZ: She was told -- she was...
GRACE: ... to talk about her computer malfunction. BS! Total BS. David Schwartz, you know I respect you as a lawyer, even though I disagree with you, but you`re losing respect here because her calling at, like, 2:00 or 3:00 AM to have a little chat with her husband is totally bogus. You know it. I know it. She knows it.
SCHWARTZ: No, I`m -- well, I`m laying out the defense arguments here, Nancy. And it`s not...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: It`s not that unusual to come...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: To call your husband at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning is not that unusual. And I think the lesson to be learned is, Don`t abuse your wife. If you`re going to abuse your wife, don`t bother getting married.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Go ahead, Anne. Very quickly...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: There`s no abuse.
BREMNER: And we don`t have the death penalty for abuse. I mean, that`s the bottom line. There`s divorce, like Nancy said. And she`s saying, I was abused. She never reported it before. There`s no evidence of that. She`s never told anybody that until now.
GRACE: But the other thing -- Robi Ludwig, boy do we need a shrink. I asked her specifically, Did he beat you? Did he abuse you? Did he torture you? No, no, no.
LUDWIG: Right.
GRACE: She said, He called me stupid.
LUDWIG: Clearly, she was spending the life insurance money, so she liked the idea of a dead husband and the money she could get. It was almost like, If you can`t take care of me in life, I`ll find a way to take care of myself in death.
GRACE: Quick break. When we come back, meet James Houston Glass. He`s talking about a murder plot on his life that his wife, Wendy, and her lover hatched against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES GLASS: Every emotion went through, you know, shock, anger, disbelief, hurt. It was terrible. It was the lowest moment of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. You know, it`s pretty hard to trick the grim reaper. James Houston Glass did it three times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES GLASS: He lured me into a guard shack. That afternoon, he came to me and he said that he believed that there was some type of illegal activity going on. So we go out to that area. That`s in the middle of the night. It`s about 2:00 o`clock in the morning.
GRACE: Well, that`s usually when illegal activity goes on...
JAMES GLASS: Exactly!
GRACE: ... Houston. So I can`t say that should have tipped you off. OK.
JAMES GLASS: But you know...
GRACE: Nothing good`s going on at 2:00 AM.
JAMES GLASS: Right.
GRACE: OK? Nothing good is going on.
JAMES GLASS: Right.
GRACE: So you go out. All right.
JAMES GLASS: Well, we were on a base surrounded by both Kuwaiti armed forces, Air Force and Marine Corps. First thing on my mind that something like that was going to happen. And there was some really loud John Deer generator, so I really couldn`t hear a lot that was going on. And I thought I heard something in the center of the guard shack, and about then, the grenade exploded, blew me against the side of the guard shack.
GRACE: Did it knock you unconscious?
JAMES GLASS: No, it didn`t knock me unconscious. My first thought was that -- well, I didn`t think it was a grenade at first. I had wounds all in the front of my left leg and in the back of my right leg. By all miracles, what had happened is there was three cases of water bottles sitting in the middle of the guard shack. The grenade rode behind, you know, these cases, about this big, and exploded. And I was sitting in the only spot in that guard shack where I could have survived.
GRACE: I take it that you were taken to the hospital.
JAMES GLASS: Right.
GRACE: When did you realize he was involved?
JAMES GLASS: He confessed an hour or so after it happened. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations came and got a statement from me, and you know, of course, he was the first one they interviewed. And he confessed to it. And they came and told me that night in the hospital.
GRACE: So you find out that night...
JAMES GLASS: Yes.
GRACE: ... that he`s responsible. But when did you find out your wife was in on it?
JAMES GLASS: I put two and two together that night. The minute they told me, you know, I knew that she was involved.
GRACE: And then what?
JAMES GLASS: Every emotion went through, you know, shock, anger, disbelief. I mean, it was terrible. It was the lowest moment of my life. Those two weeks I sat in the hospital bed, you know, I went from being just angry at the world, outraged, you know, and I started slowly, you know, trying to figure out, you know, how I could pull my life back together again. And I came to the conclusion that, you know, I could either be, you know, shocked, outraged, just totally angry at everything, or I could try to be as compassionate and considerate about the whole mess as I could be.
GRACE: Now, when you first saw her after this incident, what happened?
JAMES GLASS: A lot of emotion, a lot of that emotion of hurt, disbelief, came flooding back, and -- you know, and I went up to her and hugged her.
GRACE: OK, Houston. That`s weird, OK? When you saw her, you went up and hugged her.
JAMES GLASS: Right.
GRACE: Why?
JAMES GLASS: This is a woman that I had spent 13 years of my life with. She had been through a terrible time in her life. Her mother had died. Her father had to be put into a hospital. They really didn`t think he was going to live at the time. And this is while I was deployed, and this is when Larry Framness, instead of being the friend -- the friend that he should have been and been there for her emotionally, tried to step in and take advantage of the situation.
Now, I`m not absolving her of all blame. That`s why, you know, I wound up divorcing her. But you know, she was very fragile at that time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, David Schwartz, you`ve got it so easy on this case because sometimes it`s hard to prosecutor a case when your victim is on the side of the defendant. Here`s a guy that`s loaded with shrapnel, and he`s saying the woman that tried to kill him three times is fragile. It is a defense attorney`s dream.
SCHWARTZ: It sure is. You know, obviously, you`d want the victim of the case on your side. I mean, the bottom line is, the state would have to bring evidence against Wendy. They would have to bring this evidence. This case is really about Larry Framness, the disgraceful attempted murderer of his fellow Marine. To me, it`s 100 percent his culpability in this case. And really, she had nothing to do with it.
GRACE: Let me make my closing argument, Anne Bremner. Hi, Houston? I know it`s 3:00 AM in the morning, but I`ve got a computer question. Could you help me realign my hard drive? I mean, reality is, that cell phone call was so arranged to get him up, to get him over to that barracks where her lover was waiting with a grenade. Anne, if you could just quickly outline for us, Anne Bremner, the two prior attempts to get him high on GHB and run him over a cliff.
BREMNER: Well, I mean, basically, they were -- what they were trying to do is to have him go to a party, get too drunk, drive over a cliff, have him ingest GHB, you know, which would get him to go off a cliff and die. And every step of the way -- and then, of course, they had this more complex plot in Kuwait, which would have ended...
SCHWARTZ: But Anne, that makes no logical sense, Anne! I mean, it`s a complete joke! You`re going to drive your husband off a cliff? It just makes no logical sense.
BREMNER: Oh, no!
SCHWARTZ: That didn`t happen, and she was not present in Kuwait when the hand grenade was thrown.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: She really had nothing to do with it. How are you going to prove that at trial, Anne?
BREMNER: The bottom line is, is what they planned together, and they`ve admitted to together, and there`s evidence of three attempts, which is, he will kill himself. I mean, he`ll go off the cliff. He`s going to get too drunk. But oh, he didn`t get drunk enough. So let`s try and give him a date rape drug. Oh, now let`s see if he goes off the cliff. Oh, well, let`s do the grenade. You know you throw a grenade in a shack at someone, they`re going to die. He didn`t. It`s astounding.
And now here they are. And they should both be -- both of them -- in prison for the same length of time. And just because -- just because she somehow has hoodwinked her husband to thinking that she was not involved is no reason under the law to give a lesser sentence. And the U.S. attorney takes my position which is, We don`t -- we`re not going to listen to his attempts or his pleas to have a lesser sentence because she deserves the maximum. That`s what he asked the judge.
GRACE: Well...
BREMNER: And he`s right.
GRACE: ... James Houston Glass has apparently forgiven his wife for three murder attempts on his life. We`ll hear more about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): When Chief Warrant Officer James Glass entered federal court today, he did so with a purpose: to let the judge know that he loves his wife and that, although she is accused of conspiring to kill him, he wants her released on bond.
JAMES GLASS, WIFE AND HER LOVER PLOTTED TO KILL HIM: I`m not absolving her of all blame. That`s why, you know, I wound up divorcing her. But, you know, she was very fragile at that time.
WENDY GLASS, PLOTTED WITH HER LOVER TO KILL HUSBAND: He stood behind me because he did what he thought was the right thing to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Even after Wendy Glass tried to murder her husband, Houston, three times, he is still incredibly forgiving. How can that be?
Let me go to you, Dr. Robi Ludwig. Will he ever be able in life to confront the truth?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, probably over time. And you have to remember that the legal system in some way has helped him to do that because the legal system has convicted her. So he doesn`t have to hold on to all of that anger because she is receiving punishment. And also, divorcing her was a way to leave her. So he is moving on with his life. In that way...
GRACE: Well, after I talked to him, he still basically is blaming himself and his buddy, her lover.
LUDWIG: Well, it may be so overwhelming and hard to conceptualize. And he doesn`t see her as a murderous person. And that`s probably what he`s grappling with. He doesn`t see her that way.
GRACE: Robi, do you think that it`s hard for people to accept that their judgment was poor or they couldn`t see what was going on?
LUDWIG: It`s very scary, because if you can`t trust yourself to make an important decision in your life, then who else can you trust? And what these people have to remember is often, when they marry these people, they`re very likeable and loveable.
GRACE: To Anne Bremner in Seattle, Anne, what is the strongest evidence the state has against her?
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, they have the e-mails. I mean, that`s one thing that we all need to learn in society, whether it`s a civil case or a criminal case, e-mail, e-mail, e-mail.
GRACE: Which e-mail specifically do you think bolstered the state?
BREMNER: Well, I think their plotting about the attempted homicides, but also plotting about this and then coordinating between the two of them the fact that they`re going to have the grenade thrown at a certain time, at 2:00 in the morning, in Kuwait and that she`s going to make a phone call. I mean, that`s very strong evidence, and that`s why she pled guilty.
GRACE: You know, David Schwartz, as a defense lawyer, you keep pretending she had nothing to do with the grenade attempt on his life. But the e-mails say something very different.
DAVID SCHWARTZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I don`t think the e-mails specifically state that she knew about the grenade attempt. I think the e-mails show that she was supposed to make a phone call at a certain time. That doesn`t show...
GRACE: Why? But why?
SCHWARTZ: Making a phone call is not a crime.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Answer my question. Why was she plotting with her lover to make a cell call at a certain time?
SCHWARTZ: Guess what, Nancy? That`s for the government to prove.
GRACE: But I`m asking you.
SCHWARTZ: And that`s why we have to challenge the government on these cases.
GRACE: Do you have an answer? Do you have an answer?
SCHWARTZ: I don`t have an answer because I wasn`t there.
GRACE: OK, OK, OK, that`s fine.
SCHWARTZ: I wasn`t there.
GRACE: Anne, what do the e-mails reveal?
BREMNER: I`m sorry, what?
GRACE: What do the e-mails reveal?
BREMNER: That there was a plot to have a phone call at a certain time. And that`s what occurred. It`s not a coincidence that he threw the grenade into the shack. And the idea was to get him in the shack because he didn`t want to have interference on the phone.
And so he would go in there when she called. The other idea as part of the e-mail was to wake him up, and the phone call woke both of them up, and then led to his being lured, essentially, into that guard shack.
GRACE: David?
SCHWARTZ: But, Nancy, what proof does the government have? What proof does the government have that she knew about a grenade? It is not a crime -- wait, wait...
GRACE: OK...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: It`s not a crime to make a phone call. It`s not a crime to wish your husband dead. These are not crimes.
GRACE: Second verse, same as the first. What do they have? They`ve got e-mails between her and her lover where he tells her call him at this outlandish hour of the morning so I can get him into an empty barracks. And she actually does it.
Not only that, you have all the attempts with poisoning him and trying to drive him over a cliff. Wait, wait, wait. And if that`s not enough, you have a signed confession, right, Anne?
BREMNER: That`s right.
GRACE: We`ve got a confession in this case. Are you saying the confession was tainted or as a result of torture?
SCHWARTZ: From a defense standpoint, Nancy, I am arguing...
GRACE: You`re screwed! It`s over!
SCHWARTZ: ... I am arguing this case prior to the confession. Had she not confessed -- obviously, obviously, she made a confession.
GRACE: Anne, help me! You cannot argue the case...
SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait. She made a confession, and this case is about punishment.
GRACE: ... if the confession doesn`t exist. She wrote a confession, and you`re still pretending none of this happen.
SCHWARTZ: But nowhere in the confession does it state that she knew about a grenade. Nowhere in that confession does it state that. So we`re back to the same point again.
Why in the world -- I can`t figure it out -- would she get the same punishment as the guy who threw the grenade?
GRACE: Well, wait a minute, Anne...
SCHWARTZ: It makes no logical sense.
BREMNER: This is somebody, again, the black widow, who wants to confess to get a deal, and she`s going to turn in the man she loves -- the man she loves -- to save herself. And that`s what she does to get a better deal.
But, of course, she has all of these e-mails. You know, but importantly, I think something we haven`t talked about is all the insurance money, that there was $350,000 in insurance money. And then, during the course of this, she tries to get another $50,000.
GRACE: Anne, what was she doing with all of that money?
BREMNER: Well, I mean, she basically was -- she wanted to go off with her, you know, new boyfriend, soon-to-be husband. I don`t know. I mean, she wanted the money. So it`s not just...
GRACE: You know, Anne, Anne, it sounds like they`re going off to spring break together or something.
BREMNER: Yes.
GRACE: I need you on this, Robi. The reality is, is this whole plan sounds like two teenagers in puppy love and they`re plotting this fantastical crime. The reality is, the husband ends up full of shrapnel in a military hospital in Iraq.
LUDWIG: We don`t know who Wendy Glass was before she married James Glass. I mean, he seemed to be buying a car either from her parents or grandparents. We don`t know whether she has an education, who she dated, what her options in life were...
GRACE: Robi, I`ve some news for you, OK?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Murder has nothing to do with whether you`ve got a PhD, OK? I`ve had people with fifth-grade educations and a rabbi may commit a murder, OK?
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: I hear you. I hear you. And we`ve talked about this.
GRACE: With about 10 PhDs in his back pocket.
LUDWIG: But we don`t know why she married James Glass.
GRACE: Do we care?
LUDWIG: Maybe James was a way...
GRACE: Why do we care?
LUDWIG: Yes, because maybe he was away to get away from her controlling parents. And then, when she married him, she found a way to get away from James.
GRACE: Robi, Robi, Robi, Robi, why do you keep talking about her being controlled by other people? Because, to me, it looks like she`s the puppeteer, that that she`s playing everybody.
LUDWIG: She might be.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She landed one guy behind bars, one guy in a military hospital full of shrapnel. And now she`s like, "Judge, I didn`t know anything about this."
LUDWIG: No, I agree...
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: I`m not buying it, and even if...
GRACE: Schwartz, Schwartz, I think, is totally sucked in. She may be looking at...
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: I mean, the bottom line is, Nancy...
GRACE: The wife better get worried.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: I hear a lot of questions why. Anne doesn`t know what was going to happen with the insurance money. Nobody knows. And you know what that tells me, Nancy? Mere speculation.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: Mere speculation. That`s what this case is about.
GRACE: Did I dream up the confession?
SCHWARTZ: It`s mere speculation from Wendy`s standpoint in this case.
GRACE: Did I dream up the confession? Just yes/no, did I dream up the confession?
SCHWARTZ: Yes, you did, because there was no mention in that confession of a hand grenade.
LUDWIG: But you said she was going to pay bills and then she was going to use the extra...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hold on. Anne, what about that motive for murder, got to pay the bills with the insurance money? That doesn`t help anything. That`s not helping.
BREMNER: Well, yes, that doesn`t help at all. I mean, this case is a slam dunk for the prosecution. And you know, when you attempt to murder somebody, not once, not twice, but three times, three times, she should be in jail for the rest of her life, period, end of story. And yet here she sits saying, "Oh, he wasn`t there for me."
GRACE: "He called me stupid."
BREMNER: Oh, there were issues in her marriage.
GRACE: "He called me stupid." Bang, bang. I bet he never does that again.
(LAUGHTER)
BREMNER: Yes, I mean, it`s just -- you know, and for women offenders, you know, we have someone come in and say, "It`s everybody else`s fault except for mine." I think that that`s something the judge should look at.
GRACE: Hey guys, we are...
BREMNER: That`s something the D.A., the U.S. attorney saw.
GRACE: We are going to a quick break. When we get back, closing arguments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us.
As you know by now, James Houston Glass survived three murder attempts on his life, all at the hands of his own wife. But she didn`t act alone. She had help from her lover, Larry Framness.
Now, Framness played a dual role in this performance. He was not only the couple`s next-door neighbor -- go figure -- he was also one of the victim`s best friends. Now, Glass lived, but he is obviously in denial. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GLASS: I don`t think it so much as hurts me now to look back on it because I`ve been through all of that numerous times. And it`s just something that I have to deal with. I have to go on with my life. I have two wonderful children I have to be strong for.
GRACE: You do, two beautiful girls, beautiful. How are they now?
GLASS: They seem to be handling it very well. They`re really upset that their mother is gone. And something you have to understand, their mother was a stay-at-home mom. She was there every day of their lives. And that`s something they really miss.
And especially being a single parent now in the military, I have to spend a lot of time at work. I`m getting ready to deploy again. And so they don`t have the emotional support that they once had.
GRACE: Now, how long is she behind bars, your ex?
GLASS: Seven years.
GRACE: How do you explain that to two children? How do you say Mommy tried to kill Daddy three times?
GLASS: There is no easy way to do that. And that`s something that there`s a lot of heartache in, you know, trying to figure out how to do.
GRACE: Do they really understand what happened?
GLASS: I believe my oldest does. Youngest, I`m really not so sure about.
GRACE: You`ve remarried, and you have found happiness.
GLASS: Yes, I have.
GRACE: Tell me about that. I guess it`s hard to trust another woman after the one you sunk your heart and soul into for 13 years tried to kill you three times.
GLASS: You know, I don`t look at it that way. You know, I look at it as an individual. You know, Wendy was an individual who made a mistake. And it`s just not like that for every woman.
GRACE: She made three mistakes that we know of.
GLASS: Well, three mistakes.
GRACE: She actively participated in attempts on your life, the father of her girls.
GLASS: Yes.
GRACE: I think you`re way too soft on her. Have you had that accusation made before?
GLASS: Oh, I`ve had -- oh, yes, I have. If I have to err on the side, I`d rather err on the side of being too soft. You know, I`ve got to be there. I`ve got to be level-headed for my girls. They love their mother. They don`t like what she did, but they still love her.
GRACE: I spoke to your wife the day the divorce was final.
GLASS: Yes...
GRACE: She kept telling me that you weren`t there for her when her mother died, that I think you wouldn`t go to the funeral, you weren`t there for her. Now, when you`re over fighting for your country, I don`t know how you can be there for her. I get the sense that you`re somehow blaming yourself for three attempts on your life.
GLASS: Well, there is a little bit of fault on my part.
GRACE: How can that be? I`ve asked her a lot of questions about you. And to me, you sounded like not only were you serving your country but that you were a good husband. So how do you find fault and somehow blame yourself for this?
GLASS: Well, I can always look back and think that, if I had been there more for her emotionally, then, you know, she wouldn`t have had to rely on Larry Framness, fall back on him. There`s a little bit of guilt about that because, you know, not only was I hurt in this whole deal, I`ve got two children whose lives were turned over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, what is this, survivor guilt? What is that?
LUDWIG: Yes, I think in part. And he also knows how he behaved in the marriage.
GRACE: Robi, Robi, Robi, he called her stupid.
LUDWIG: Yes, I know.
GRACE: That does not equal the death penalty.
LUDWIG: Right. I know. But he also described -- and he also could have been controlling. He said no to a divorce. Now, we say, "Oh, maybe it`s because he loved her." But maybe it`s because he didn`t want to give her what she wanted.
GRACE: I think you`re speculating. How would you know if he was controlling?
LUDWIG: I am speculating. I`m just -- well, also, she was drawn to two military men. We don`t know what that represented in her mind, powerful, strong men that could protect her. So I`m not saying anyone deserves to be murdered or to have a murder plot planned against them. But, you know, it is possible...
GRACE: You know what? You`re saying she`s drawn to these strong, authority figures. I say she`s a black widow. She goes from one man to the next and destroys each one. One she nearly kills, the other`s behind bars for 25 years, OK? This is not some weak woman who follows along behind other people.
LUDWIG: I`m not saying she`s weak. However, it is interesting, though, that she started to act this way once her parents were no longer around. Now, for some people, their parents keep them in check...
GRACE: She was already sleeping with the neighbor.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, just surprise me. Sleep with somebody else. Why does it always have to be the husband`s best friend?
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: They were swinging before they moved to Arizona, so they were kind of flirting with danger of experimenting with other couples before they were even neighbors.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, question to you regarding the punishment. Have you found that women get lighter sentences for the same act as men?
BREMNER: I have. And I think, you know, I guess we`re the gentler sex. However, in this case, I don`t think that a woman should get a lesser sentence. But the answer`s yes. And a lot of times, there`s a quote, you know, that men are demonized and women are diagnosed or, you know, women in some way, you know, that justice system kind of looks at them differently because most crimes are men`s crimes, not women`s crimes, especially homicide.
SCHWARTZ: You know, Nancy, I`m ready to fall off my chair by Ann`s comments. The reason why they`re getting a different sentence is very simple: He threw the hand grenade; she didn`t. He was obsessed with his fellow marine`s wife; she wasn`t, OK? He was in the heat of battle in there. He`d the one that did all the outward steps towards this crime.
BREMNER: It doesn`t matter.
SCHWARTZ: What did she do, Anne? She made a phone call. That`s what she did. He threw a hand grenade. That`s why they have different sentences.
GRACE: You know what, David? You`re very conveniently forgetting that she fed him poison, an illegal drug, gamma hydroxybutyrate, not once but twice, and tried to drive him off a cliff, that she acted as the decoy, so to speak, by -- let me finish -- calling her husband 2:00, 3:00 a.m. to ask for computer help so her lover could arrange a murder plot. Now, just get real for a minute. How do you explain that?
SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, obviously, she gave him the date-rape drug, but did she drive him of the cliff? No. Nothing happened there. The attempted murder case is the hand grenade in Kuwait. That is the attempted murder case.
GRACE: No, there are three charges, the two of driving him over a cliff and throwing a grenade.
SCHWARTZ: But she didn`t drive him over a cliff.
LUDWIG: Maybe you could be a dependent murder...
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: ... where you have to rely on somebody else to do your dirty work. (INAUDIBLE) anywhere?
GRACE: OK, very quickly, regarding the girls, OK, this couple, forget about it. Framness behind bars. Wendy Glass behind bars. Houston moving on. Number one, is he in denial? And, two, how do these girls grow up with Mommy down the street in jail, in the federal pen?
LUDWIG: You know, James is doing the exact right thing. He is basically presenting a loving picture of their mother, which is very important, because it is in the best interest of the children to recognize that what their mother did was wrong but that it`s OK to love them, because they`re a combination of both their mother and their father. And if they`re going to hate their mother, they have a better chance of hating part of themselves.
GRACE: Anne, what does this do to custody? If she goes to jail on a felony charge, does she lose custody of the kids?
BREMNER: Yes. And, you know, in a case like this, you know what the U.S. attorney is saying is that her husband, you know, his pleas for mercy, are basically being made because he wants to be on a talk show circuit with the children. I mean, we do have that aspect of the case. But that`s the only thing there is to look at, in terms of...
GRACE: Well, I beg your pardon, Anne. I didn`t see the kids on air tonight. So that`s totally bogus.
BREMNER: No, I`m just telling you -- I mean, what I`m saying is you`ve got the U.S. attorney in this -- the only person pointing a finger at him is the U.S. attorney in a way that I don`t agree with. But getting back to the custody is that he should be raising those girls. She`s in prison, and she`ll have visitation, but it should be limited.
SCHWARTZ: You know what, Anne? The U.S. attorney should stay out of what happens in the family itself. That should be left to the family courts. I don`t think the U.S. attorney really had standing to try to figure out what`s in the best interest of their children.
BREMNER: No. No. What the U.S. attorney is saying is something very different. What the U.S. attorney is saying is, if someone seems to be true, they usually are, and all of this forgiveness, he is looking at with a somewhat of a jaundiced eye. That`s all I`m saying. And that`s his position, in the criminal case, not the family law case.
GRACE: Anne, do you believe that the judge was biased by giving her a lighter sentence than him? To me, they deserve the same sentence.
BREMNER: I think they deserve the same sentence. I don`t agree with the judge`s sentence. I agree that she`s a black widow and she`s hoodwinked everybody in this case, every single person, even including the judge.
GRACE: Another question here: Was money also a motive in the plot to kill James Houston Glass? We`ll take a look at that when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): In this 10-page indictment, investigators say Chief Warrant Office Larry Framness was in love with another marine`s wife, so in love that investigators say Framness and the marine`s wife plotted to kill the marine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: James Houston Glass survived three murder attempts at the hands of his wife and her lover, one of his best friends. She`s headed to jail. David Schwartz, final thoughts?
SCHWARTZ: The person responsible for this terrible crime is doing life in jail.
GRACE: You`re not going to give up, are you?
SCHWARTZ: Larry is the one that`s responsible. Wendy, you know, should be with her children.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know what you are?
SCHWARTZ: She should get psychiatric treatment. And she should not be doing seven years.
GRACE: You know what? This is what you`re doing. Everybody but me, blame him, blame the controlling father. So your final thought is somebody else did it.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: No, he threw the hand grenade. She didn`t. It`s simple.
GRACE: OK. OK. David Schwartz, you`re overruled.
Robi?
LUDWIG: Framness wouldn`t offer her happiness if she was able to be with him, because her ideas about relationships were completely are off- base. This is a woman who didn`t...
GRACE: You`re talking about relationships. Can we talk about murder?
LUDWIG: OK, all right. This is a woman who didn`t have a lot of options in life. She went with her first option, with James when he asked to marry her, and then, when she found a better offer, she was just tempted and could not resist getting rid of her husband the only way she knew how, which was via murder.
GRACE: Anne Bremner, please throw me a life raft here. These people are crazy.
BREMNER: Women have been looking for equality forever. In a lot of ways, we don`t have it. It is, to me, as a lawyer, as a former prosecutor and defense lawyer, watching a case like this is very disheartening, to see a woman use her gender and her lack of involvement when she was really the master, the master of the equation, to say, "Give me less time, and I will sell out my husband, I will sell out my lover, I will sell out anybody for myself." And it was accepted. And that is the worst ending of all.
GRACE: You know, David Schwartz, this time, the victim lived to tell the story. Yes, no, you`re still sticking with the defense it`s somebody else`s fault?
SCHWARTZ: I think it`s clear-cut. Larry threw the hand grenade. She didn`t. She deserves less time.
GRACE: That would be yes or no. That was a yes or no. OK. We`re in cross-examination here, David.
SCHWARTZ: OK.
GRACE: What a lineup of guests, and what a story. James Houston Glass lived to tell us tonight. Stay here on Headline for all the news all around the world. I want to thank you for inviting us into your homes tonight. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. I`ll see you tomorrow here on NANCY GRACE. And until then, goodbye, friend.
END
