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Nancy Grace

The Minds of Molesters, Victims

Aired December 27, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: From Jessica Lunsford to Sarah Michelle Lundy, both in Florida, to Samantha Runion in California, the deadly trend of child molestation as a motive for murder is making one shocking headline after the next. Tonight, into the minds of child molesters and victims. We are looking for answers to help stop this horrific but age-old crime.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Child sex abuse, one of the single most underreported crime son the law books. A child molestation goes down practically every minute. It is a crime that cripples and destroys the lives of innocent children well into their adulthood, if they survive.

Tonight, inside the minds of two convicted sex offenders. And hear the stories of fall-out of abuse from child sex victims. With us tonight, Alison Arngrim. Alison was a child star. I know you recognize her. She starred as Nellie on TV`s "Little House on the Prairie." In real life, Ali was repeatedly raped by a family member who baby-sat in the home. Also with us, a woman who remains anonymous. Tonight we will call her "Sue." Her grandfather began molesting her at age 2. Also with us, clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders. Later, we`ll be joined by two convicted child molesters.

But right now, I want to speak to the victims of child molestation. First, as I call her Tenellie (ph), Alison Arngrim. Ali, thank you for being with us, friend.

ALISON ARNGRIM, "LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE" STAR, MOLESTATION VICTIM: Thank you. Thank you very much.

GRACE: You know, you are so brave in your demeanor, but I know this must be very difficult for you to talk about.

ARNGRIM: It`s getting easier all the time. I mean, obviously, when I first began to talk about it, yes. And it`s not pleasant.

GRACE: Rape victims, child molestation victims very often are ashamed to come forward, ashamed to tell their parents or file a police report. Why is that, Ali?

ARNGRIM: Well, that`s part of how the molester, the rapist, manipulates their victims and maintains control over the situation. Also, of course, when you`re a very young child, you really have no concept of what is legal and what is illegal. I know that in my case, when the molestation started, it was so early I did not have a concept of what sex was. I couldn`t have gone to someone and said, I`m being forced to have sex, I`m being molested, because I could not have explained accurately what was even being done to me. So right there, someone who`s preying on children is giving themselves an advantage over their victims` ability to even report.

GRACE: Ali, an interesting facet of your case is that you`re a superstar. You may not see yourself that way, but all of us that watched Nellie grow up -- this means so much to me as a crime victim because other people that are watching tonight will think, Nellie was a child molestation victim? I don`t believe it. And look at her. Look how great she`s doing.

You know, the fact that you realize, as a victim, that you are not alone, others have faced the same problem and have survived is very empowering.

ARNGRIM: And it`s true. I mean, it seems weird for me to come on TV and, you know, be talking about "Little House on the Prairie" in one breath and then talking about child rape in another. But for people who are watching, because I was on TV and they feel, Oh, well, we know her, it may make it easier for people to grasp. And you know, that`s fine, if people feel like they have a relationship with me because of the show.

And the reality is, is what happened to me is no different than what is happening to millions of people right now. It`s always exactly the same. You`re not getting any better deal because you also happen to be on TV, as well as molested.

GRACE: Alison, what did happen to you?

ARNGRIM: Well, like pretty much everybody else, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I was sexually molested. And it started -- it starts out slow. There`s a one-time incident. There`s a test. They will molest a child once. Or you hear about these cases of grooming, where they start with lesser activities. And what they`re doing is seeing if the child is going to tell anyone. And then they may wait several months, and then the sex acts begin to escalate. So by the time you`re ready to, like, say, Oh, my God, this must stop, I must tell someone, it`s already too late. You`re absolutely trapped in an untenable situation.

GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders, explain this whole grooming thing. We`ve heard a lot about it recently because of the Michael Jackson child sex case.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s one of the most malignant aspects of the way that child molesters and pedophiles work, is they effectively seduce the child by gaining their trust. Very often, they`ll gain or try to gain the trust or bribe the parents, so that the parents feel as if their child is safe with them. And they`ll say things like, I`m your daddy, when they`re not, as if it was just...

GRACE: It`s just our secret.

SAUNDERS: It`s our secret. It`s...

GRACE: It`s just normal.

SAUNDERS: This is normal. I`m going to...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I love you.

SAUNDERS: I love you. I`m going to teach you all about touching and kissing, like nobody else can do.

GRACE: Here in the studio with me is a very special guest speaking out for the very first time, and we are calling her "Sue." Sue is a victim of child molestation. Thank you, friend, for speaking to us tonight.

"SUE", MOLESTATION VICTIM: You`re welcome.

GRACE: You know, there`s so many people out there that have been molested, that don`t have the strength or the energy to speak out against it. I really appreciate you and Ali tonight so very, very much.

"SUE": It means a lot. If I could try to help somebody...

GRACE: And you will. You may never know them, you may never know their name or see their face, but they`re hearing you tonight. Tell us your story.

"SUE": Well, basically, my grandfather sexually abused me when I was around 2. He, in my eyes, was a great man and took us a lot of great places. And that`s what the problem is, is when you`re abused by a family member versus somebody that you don`t know...

GRACE: A stranger.

"SUE": ... a stranger, is that you have this double feeling. Part of you feels like you love him, and then the other part of you is being violated. And you live night after night in tremendous fear. And what happened with me is it happened when I was so young that it was during my pre-verbal times...

GRACE: Oh!

"SUE": ... when you don`t really have a voice.

GRACE: Can`t put a name to it.

"SUE": Right. You don`t know what it means. You don`t know what it`s about. And all you know is that you have fear.

GRACE: Most likely, you`re not his only victim.

"SUE": Oh, I know I`m not. Actually, my mother was abused.

GRACE: Didn`t they get it, Sue, not to put you in harm`s way? Were they that much in denial?

"SUE": Well, my mother, yes, put a lot of all of us in denial and repressed most of it. She didn`t share very much of that with my father out of the same reason as I didn`t share it with other people. It`s shame.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... that you`re damaged goods, that something`s wrong with you.

"SUE": Right.

GRACE: You know, that is so wrong, Doctor, that her -- now, don`t get mad at me, but I can`t help by blame your mom a little. I`m sorry because if she doesn`t want to speak about her own problems, her own horrible experience, I understand that. But to allow her child to be placed in harm`s way, I don`t understand that.

"SUE": You`re 100 percent right, and I went through many years of that feeling...

GRACE: Hating her...

(CROSSTALK)

"SUE": ... resenting her, hating her, wondering how -- just not understanding.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) do anything.

"SUE": She was a good mom, and she is a good mother. And I just didn`t understand how she could do that. My mother has turned -- it`s -- she had told me that she will always be there for me, she will answer whatever she could answer and help me the best I can...

GRACE: Sue, I`ve got to tell you...

"SUE": ... to get better.

GRACE: ... you`re more of a woman than me because I`m afraid that I would be angry for the rest of my life.

"SUE": I know.

GRACE: So -- you know what? I`m going to take you up on that offer, and Dr. Saunders is going to explain how it is -- what is the psychology of a mother that knowingly allows her child to be in harm`s way of a child sex molester. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. You can`t help but know about the crime of child molestation. We see it in the headlines all the time. Very often child, molestation victims don`t live to tell their story. And if they do, they are scarred for the rest of their lives.

Tonight, in addition to Dr. Patricia Saunders trying to make some sense out of it, two child molestation victims have come forward to speak out. Later, we`ll be joined by two convicted child molesters.

Right now, I want to go back out to Alison Arngrim. You may know her as Nellie from "Little House on the Prairie." Ali is a child molestation survivor. Ali, did your abuser ever become violent?

ARNGRIM: Oh, yes. That`s real common, too. There`s sort of this fantasy that some molesters, especially intra-family molesters, are non- violent, that they`re not like other pedophiles, they don`t hurt the children. And that`s just what it is, is a fantasy. It`s about power and control and domination, so threats of violence and physical violence absolutely were used all the time.

I was very much like a battered wife, that I had to lie and cover up, and I had to constantly worry about placating this other person and monitoring his moods, so that I would not be beaten senseless at any time. And knowing that anything could cause him to fly into a rage and injure me meant that, obviously, when it came time for molestation, I was hardly in a position to fight back.

GRACE: Your parents never became suspicious?

ARNGRIM: You know, and that`s the thing. I would say pretty much clueless. The problem, too, is that at the time, in the `60s, there were no brochures with these seven signs of an abused child. When people saw things that made them think that possibly a child was being molested, they either completely didn`t recognize it or denied it.

When you look at it historically, child rape was a misdemeanor until 1950 because people just didn`t believe people did those things. It just didn`t exist. No one talked about this. Battered child syndrome wasn`t until, what, 1969. So there was an enormous amount of denial in society, and of course, in my household. And that is where -- molestation and incest flourish in families where there are secrets generally being kept, there is denial generally going on, so that there`s just an obvious opening for someone to run riot.

GRACE: And bottom line, Dr. Saunders, what is the child to make of it? This is -- let`s take Ali, for instance. She`s being molested by a baby-sitter in the family`s home. The parents, you would think, they would catch on. She`s bruised. She obviously will have a personality change. Her grades in school will drop. She will begin acting out badly.

The parents don`t get it. They don`t say anything, so the child, I assume -- I`m just a lawyer -- is left to think that they`re all part of a big conspiracy, that it`s OK with the parents.

SAUNDERS: Children assume that, A bad thing is happening to me, so I must be bad, I must be worthless, I must be garbage. And this is the tragedy of child abuse, is that children will not give up the dependency -- they can`t -- on the adults who take care of them, on the adults who love them. So they take their evil upon themselves.

GRACE: Ali, did your family ever accept the truth that you had been molested right there under their nose?

ARNGRIM: Yes, ultimately. It`s true. Because, as a child, you don`t want to give up this relationship with these people who are supposed to be protecting you and you assume that you`re going to say or do the right thing to stop the abuse, one of the problems we have in society now is an emphasis on reuniting the family abuser with the family. And what they often do is literally force the child to attend therapy with their abuser.

GRACE: Oh, oh, oh! I don`t like that at all! That sound terrible!

ARNGRIM: Oh, I just met a woman yesterday who told me that when she refused to go to therapy with her father, who molested her, they told her they would put her in juvenile hall. So you have people forced to do this who don`t want to. And since you already have a victim who thinks it`s their job to make their abuser happy, and then you say, Well, yes, it is, you need to go to therapy with them and fix them -- right now, in most states, if you are a family molester, if you didn`t molest a stranger, the first line of defense in the law is not jail but probation with no time served, family therapy involving the victim and the molester together, and deferred entry of judgment, so that you are, in fact, not a registered sex offender.

GRACE: Well, you know what? You know what, Ali? You`re talking Greek to me because in my jurisdiction, every time I got my mitts on a child molester within the family, they weren`t going to therapy. They`re going to jail.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: This is a shock to me.

ARNGRIM: Oh, no. Unlike you...

GRACE: It`s more victimization of the victim!

(CROSSTALK)

ARNGRIM: Yes, it is. And many prosecutors and judges actually are -- try -- they don`t do what you`re doing. They say, Let`s get them back in the house. And I`ve met several women who they were told their abuser was cured, and he continued...

GRACE: Cured!

ARNGRIM: ... to abuse them as soon as he got home.

GRACE: There is no rehabilitation, there is no cure for child molesters! I don`t care what -- whatever shrink wants to tell me different, I don`t believe it. I really believe, Dr. Saunders, as Ali is pointing out, that is revictimizing the victim, like, they need to go to therapy? Did they do something to egg this on?

SAUNDERS: There`s a protocol in New York called "Making Families Safe for Children," which is one of the most ironic titles I`ve ever heard. I was trained in this. The first time I did it with a family, I watched a child fall apart under my very eyes. As Nellie was saying, that the child wants to please, they`re trained to please the abuser, and they will sell their soul to the devil doing it. It`s traumatic for children, and I don`t recommend it for anybody.

GRACE: For a child to have to face off in therapy with their molester!

With me, two victims, two survivors of child molestation. Also with us, Dr. Patricia Saunders. Shortly, we`ll be joined by two convicted child molesters. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us, an important topic tonight. You can`t read the paper, you can`t turn on the television or flip on your radio in the car without hearing about yet another child molestation victim. They`re often ending in murder.

Tonight, with us, Dr. Patricia Saunders, who has treated literally hundreds of child molestation victims. Also with us, Alison Arngrim. You may know her as Nellie. Nellie`s all grown up into a beautiful woman now. Nellie is also a child molestation survivor.

And when I think back on the times, Ali, of watching you as a little girl on "Little House on the Prairie," you gave so many people so much joy, including me, and during that time, you were battling the demon of child molestation. It`s almost as if the eye is deceiving the mind because you`re such a beautiful little girl, so together, you`re a child actress, you`re a star. To reconcile that with you having been the victim of repeated rapes as a child, it`s almost like a mind trick.

ARNGRIM: Well, it is. It`s hard for people to believe. But that`s the thing. I mean, you may see beautiful children in the street every day, who may be A students, who may seem together, who, in fact, are being molested. I mean, the fact that I wound up playing Nellie Oleson was a marvelous twist of fate and really, a wonderful thing that happened to me because here I was, playing this character, who...

GRACE: I don`t know, Ali! She was kind of mean!

(LAUGHTER)

ARNGRIM: I was vicious. And the constant raging and screaming and breaking things -- I can`t begin to tell you how wonderful that was for me, how blatantly therapeutic it was, because the rage and the pain that we all hold in when we`re victimized, it has to go somewhere, and it usually results in illness. I mean, I know I went through a phase where I threw up and had rashes and was sick all the time. But I tell you, when I was doing Nellie, my blood pressure was quite even. I was able to let out an awful lot of pain in that performance.

GRACE: I remember, as a crime victim, the first time I gave an opening statement in court, I let it loose! And then I turned around, it was done, everybody was sitting there, going -- and I thought, Well, I just gave an opening statement. Why are they acting like that? I didn`t realize all of that had come out.

Here on the set with me, another adult victim of child molestation. We are calling her "Sue. Sue is a long-time victim of child molestation.

Now joining us, convicted sex offender who molested his own 3-year-old daughter, Jake Goldenflame. Also with us, we will call him Bob, joining us from Illinois, a convicted sex offender. He molested a young relative. Also with us Bill Ford. He is a sexual offender counselor.

Boy, you got your work cut out for you, Bill! Thank you for being with us...

BILL FORD, SEXUAL OFFENDER COUNSELOR: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: ... gentlemen. Very quickly, I want to go to Sue. How hard is it for you, even as an adult -- this happened many years ago -- to talk about this?

"SUE": Part of me still feels a lot of the shame and the guilt. It`s difficult to trust because people that were supposed to protect you didn`t.

GRACE: Did not.

"SUE": So that`s very -- that`s the hardest -- one of the hardest (INAUDIBLE) a lot of shame. And then it just feels that if you tell, that you just will go down a very deep, dark hall and never come out.

GRACE: Dr. Saunders, this is an age-old story, but I don`t think it`s getting any better. You know, we`re in 2005, and we still have child molestation victims feeling shame, feeling guilt that it`s their fault, not coming forward.

SAUNDERS: We have to fight this conspiracy of silence. Unfortunately, the normal social reaction to atrocity is to banish it from our awareness.

GRACE: Dr. Saunders, what are some of the symptoms that your child has been molested?

SAUNDERS: Well, any change, any sudden change, from a child`s normal behavior, OK, parents should be suspicious about it. When kids start isolating themselves from friends, when they suddenly acquire sexual knowledge that kids their age should just not have, OK, when they start all of a sudden having problems at school at learning problems, when they start bed-wetting, when they`ve been toilet trained before, or show any kind of aggressive behavior, a 6-year-old suddenly starts sucking his thumb, when kids start compulsively masturbating or show, you know, intense interest in...

GRACE: What about self-harm?

SAUNDERS: Self-harm comes in a little bit later, but we see child victims of sexual abuse pulling their hair and banging their head. That`s a big warning that something is really off.

GRACE: Promiscuity in adolescence?

SAUNDERS: Big problem. Adolescent girls and boys who have been abused tend to be highly promiscuous.

GRACE: Why do child molestation victims often become promiscuous in adolescence?

SAUNDERS: OK, two reasons. One is that the child learns how to not trust her own perceptions and judgments because of the betrayal and whatever garbage the abuser has fed her. And she is not very good at picking up danger signals. She can`t read them.

GRACE: I would have guessed that it`s because they got acceptance or some type of reinforcement for going along with child molestation as a child, and then as an adolescent, a teenager, they think that`s the only way they can be liked, is to have sex.

SAUNDERS: That`s all that they`re worth, and that`s the other part, too, is that they feel that their only worth what somebody can use their body for.

GRACE: What about depression or suicidal ideation?

SAUNDERS: Yes. Suicidal thoughts and depression are very common in kids. We see that more in adolescents.

GRACE: It`s a sudden change in their behavior.

SAUNDERS: Exactly. And these are post-traumatic reactions. Parents, please take it very seriously. Children do not just have these signs. There are reasons for them, and they need help.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone. When we come back, you will be meeting two convicted child molesters. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

A re-intro of all of our guests. Joining me, Allison Arngrim. Not only was she Nellie Oleson on "Little House on the Prairie," Ali is an adult survivor of child molestation, repeated rapes for years on end. She is here to speak out tonight.

Here in the studio with me, Dr. Patricia Saunders, psychologist. And also with me, an adult child molestation victim we are calling "Sue" tonight. Now, we are being joined tonight from San Francisco, convicted sex offender and author, Jake Goldenflame.

In Chicago, we call him "Bob." He is a convicted sex offender, as well. And here in New York, sex offender counselor Bill Ford.

Jake Goldenflame, first to you. When you hear the stories of these child molestation victims, don`t you feel horrible? I mean, how do you live with this huge weight that you`re a molester?

JAKE GOLDENFLAME, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: Nancy, as I -- I want to thank both of those women from the bottom of my heart -- and I mean that -- for sharing their pain and agony this morning.

As you did so, young women, I want you to know that I went through it with you. I was also a victim of child molestation. I was raped for a year by a bigger boy at school repeatedly. The very things you talked about I went through, too. And I was recalling them with every step that you were brave enough to take this morning.

I remember being suicidal at 16 years of age. I thank God that you`re brave enough to come forward so other children don`t go through what we all did.

I wound up becoming a child molester because of the damage that was never healed in me. And that`s why I feel adamant that every child who is molested by anyone under any circumstances must be given help.

I`m not talking family reunification. That`s not my specialty. I mean help. Because, otherwise, we just grow up to become damaged people.

Thank you so much for your courage. I`m honored to have you present in this show on my life. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

GRACE: Jake, Jake, question to you.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes, yes.

GRACE: Do you recall the first time you molested a child?

GOLDENFLAME: I was recalling the first time I was molested this morning, Nancy. That`s what I`m recalling. And that`s what I`ve got to deal with. It was very painful.

GRACE: My question to you...

GOLDENFLAME: And I want to stay with that, because I want...

GRACE: ... though, is do you recall the first...

GOLDENFLAME: ... I want you to be clear, Nancy.

GRACE: ... time you molested a child?

GOLDENFLAME: Nancy, I`m not arguing. But if you want to understand us, what you`re looking at is you`re looking at former victims. That`s all you you`ve got on this show. Please see it that way. And then we`ll start to have healing.

GRACE: Jake, Jake...

GOLDENFLAME: If you keep dividing us falsely into, "Well, they`re the victims, and those are the offenders," all you`ve got is a social...

(CROSSTALK)

ARNGRIM: On the one hand, the point is, yes, by golly, he, and no doubt Bob, is going to tell us he was also a victim as well. And, indeed, they should have received help at the time, which could have done a lot towards this.

However, I don`t believe that Sue -- and I know I have not -- we are both victims of molestation, and neither of us have gone on to act out and molest a child. So there is an element of choice about what you do about your pain.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes, yes, yes.

ARNGRIM: And that`s the objection I have.

GRACE: You know, that`s a really good point, Ali, because Goldenflame, you are going on and on about being a victim. Do you recall the first time you molested your 3-year-old daughter?

GOLDENFLAME: No, I blocked it out this morning. The pain of being a victim is too great and all the other victimizations I caused is too great.

"SUE": I laughed myself off the couch.

GRACE: Sue?

"SUE": You don`t have any feelings about what you did to that daughter? You don`t feel anything? You don`t sit there and feel the pain that you have caused her...

GRACE: He blocks it.

"SUE": ... and what she`s living with that day by day by day?

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDENFLAME: Why do you even ask such a question? Why do you even assume such a thing?

"SUE": Well, I would like to hear that.

GOLDENFLAME: What gives you the right to say, "He doesn`t feel any pain"? You`re not a mind-reader. Who gave you qualifications to read my mind? I sure as hell didn`t.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Bob from Illinois. He is a sex offender, as well.

Bob, my question to you is -- which I was trying to get from Jake Goldenflame -- I want to know, after the first time you molested a child, did you feel badly about it? Did you feel satisfied? Did you feel more angry? Did you feel self-loathing?

"BOB," CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER: Nancy, first of all, let me tell you that I was a child myself when I started offending. And I remember every incident, and I will never forget any of them.

And, after every incident, there was always a horrendous low. And I will take each one of those incidents to my grave. Even today, every day when I get up in the morning, you know, a part of that past of mine lives with me. And I remind myself of it actively, because I have to remember how horrible it was and the impact that it has on those people so that I won`t do it again.

GRACE: Is that how you keep yourself from repeat offending?

BOB: That`s part of it, never forgetting, you know, what it was like. And I don`t say that like reliving it, but never forgetting that it wasn`t about the victims, it wasn`t about anything good, that it was about something bad. It was about trying to recover a sense of normalcy and fill a hole that was left in my life from my own victimization, which I don`t use as an excuse.

It`s an explanation of where something got started and went wrong in my life, but it does not excuse anything that I did. I have always taken responsibility for every action of my own. There did come a point where I made the choice, and I accept responsibility for that.

GRACE: Did you do jail time, Bob?

BOB: I did a week in county jail after doing six months in a locked psychiatric hospital. And then I did four years of probation, through which I was mandated for therapy.

And I`ll tell you, at the time of my conviction, I was 16 years old. And I was treated as an adult in the court system. I have a Class X felony conviction on my record, was required to be registered as a sex offender. So, you know, I`ve gone through a lot since.

GRACE: Bob, I have a question. Was your offense a full-blown rape? Was it fondling? What was the offense?

BOB: No. I never penetrated any victim. It was simply touching and actions like that.

GRACE: That`s what`s being alleged...

BOB: And I`m sorry. "Simply" is the wrong word. I shouldn`t say that, because that minimizes that. It was an invasion.

GRACE: You know, I appreciate that you said that.

BOB: It was an invasion.

GRACE: Yes, because, with children, even a minimal violation like that leaves them with this horrible insecurity and guilt feelings the rest of their life.

I want to go quickly, before we go to break, to a very special guest that is Bill Ford. And he is a sex offender counselor.

Bill, you see this every day. How do you do it?

FORD: It`s not an easy job. My partner in the business in (INAUDIBLE) forensic social work is a survivor of sexual abuse. He was abused when he was 14 years old.

Now, the gentleman who works with our Hispanic population is a survivor of sexual abuse. He was a victim at 11 years old. These gentlemen work diligently at helping and assisting other individuals who genuinely want the help to change their behavior. And that`s what my motivation is.

GRACE: Do you think that`s possible, Bill? Because, in my experience as a prosecutor, you get a hold of a child molester, you look at their rap sheet, you`ll see 20 years worth of peeping tom, exposing themselves at the K-Mart, harassing children in the neighborhood, and it graduates up to molestation. There will be years of offenses. I really, in my heart of hearts, do not believe that sex offenders can ever be rehabilitated.

FORD: Nancy, I agree with you on one stance, in that there are some offenders who will not be rehabilitated. There is no help for them. The only place for them -- and I stand by this -- is prison.

But there are others who genuinely want the help, who seek the help, who, even after being convicted realize, "Well, gosh, now I have to attend a program." They don`t understand exactly what it entails. But after learning about their behavior, learning about the treatment, hearing from other gentlemen who have been helped...

GRACE: That all sounds great. But, frankly, Bill, you`re calling them gentlemen. I don`t buy it. But I want to hear more about it. Everyone, please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDENFLAME: I`m recalling the first time I was molested this morning, Nancy. That`s what I`m recalling, and that`s what I`ve got to deal with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was Jake Goldenflame. He is a convicted child molester. He was sentenced to 10 years behind bars for molesting his three-year-old daughter. And in his book, he admits to many, many other molestation victims.

Welcome back. I want to go straight back to Bob from Illinois who`s a sexual offender, a child molester.

Sir, do you still seek daily treatment? I mean, how do you get through the day without molesting again? And do you still feel those urges?

BOB: I am still in treatment. I attend a weekly group session. And when I need it, I do seek individual counseling with a therapist who I`ve actually been seeing since I was 16.

And, you know, for me, it isn`t really about urges. It`s not like I see somebody and I need to go and offend. You know, it`s hard to explain. For me, it`s more of that there`s a line that most people have that they won`t cross, and I`m able to cross that line.

I do want to make one thing clear: I`m not a pedophile. This is a mistake a lot of people make is they try to lump everybody into one class. My primary sexual attraction is with age-appropriate females. I have the ability to go elsewhere, I guess you would say. And, for me to stay safe, I have to continually monitor that and monitor...

GRACE: It`s interesting the way that you put it because, Bill Ford, when Bob talks about everyone having a line that he`s willing to cross that others don`t, most of us -- we don`t have a line because we don`t realize we need a line. It would never dawn on us. Is their minds just genetically different from ours?

FORD: I wouldn`t say it`s genetically different, but what I would say is Bob is putting it very clearly in identifying that he has this line and that he does have urges or he has feelings. His treatment focuses on his ability to monitor those feelings that may lead to his acting out.

GRACE: You mean behavior modification?

FORD: Yes.

GRACE: Take a listen to Jake Goldenflame. He seems to say that he`s a victim, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDENFLAME: I wound up becoming a child molester because of the damage that was never healed in me, and that`s why I feel adamant that every child who was molested by anyone, under any circumstances, must be given help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Saunders, explain to me why child molesters use the crutch, "I was a victim, too," as if somehow that makes it OK and we`re all supposed to feel sorry for them.

SAUNDERS: Exactly. We`re supposed to feel sorry for them. "I`m the victim here, not my real victims." It`s a rationalization. It`s a denial. And it`s not standing up like a grown-up and taking responsibility for his actions.

GRACE: As a matter of fact, when I asked Jake Goldenflame about the molestation of his three-year-old girl, he got up and walked off the set. Now, why is it that he could write a book about molesting but can`t take responsibility for what he did?

SAUNDERS: You said it, Nancy. Because I think that he`s created a shell, an appearance, that he believes that he is healed and that he`s under control. From the data that I`m aware of, and the child molesters and pedophiles that I`ve seen and worked with, they never change. They don`t get over it. And I think he`s just kidding himself and, unfortunately, us.

GRACE: Well, apparently, Bob -- we`re calling him "Bob" -- may sometimes have those urges again, but is in active behavior modification. So while he may still have an occasional urge to be with children, he is fighting that tooth and nail.

Ali, response?

ARNGRIM: I think, even if you were going to go from a "let`s get them therapy" point of view, the fact that he said he can`t remember molesting his own daughter tells us he`s not getting better.

And I would say to Sue, who asked, you know, can you feel your victim`s pain? No. That`s the point. Jake can`t feel anyone`s pain but his own. That`s why he`s doing this.

And he could write a book about it but not talk to you about it because you`re not going to give him the amount of money the book will. It`s pretty much cut and dry.

He`s not doing this for the good of humanity. He`s getting a rush and an ego boost out of talking to you about this the same way he would his victim.

Bob has a different pitch, I will concede him that. But Jake is very much attempting to manipulate television producers, like he did children, and get his jollies. That`s what`s going on.

GRACE: You know, Ali, he tells us he`s not making money off the book.

ARNGRIM: I hope not. Good.

GRACE: So would this fall into the category of seeking fame or getting some kind of vicarious thrill of...

ARNGRIM: Child molesters have the ego that ate Cincinnati. That`s kind of why part of the element...

(LAUGHTER)

And I hear Dr. Saunders laughing hysterically. It`s true. And one of the things -- there`s a marvelous website you must go to where Jake Goldenflame advises rapists and molesters how not to go to jail. And he tells them, "If you`ve hurt your victim, you should call a public defender and have them call an ambulance."

My favorite is, "If you`ve killed your victim, I`m very sorry for you. It must be hard for you now. But don`t worry. You can get your life back and be back in power and control." And Jake Goldenflame actually advises murderers on this Web site how to get their power back and take control of their life. It`s quite charming, and I think it tells you what he`s really like.

GRACE: How can you get well when you can`t realize -- this guy with a three-year-old daughter victim has blocked it, he said, this morning, conveniently just before I asked him about it.

Bill Ford, how often -- Bill is a sex offender counselor -- Bill, after dealing with so many offenders, can you tell almost immediately when an offender has a conscience and doesn`t have a conscience?

FORD: No, Nancy. That would mean that I would be some sort of psychic, and I`m not. I provide treatment for those individuals who exhibit a desire to change their behavior. And even those individuals, I question whether or not they`re telling the truth at every moment their lips are moving. Treatment is a difficult process.

GRACE: You sound like me, a hard-hearted prosecutor. I mean, I can`t help it. I take it all with a box of salt. Why did you decide to work with sex offenders?

FORD: In 1990, I began working with New York City Department of Probation. And at that time, a very dear friend of mine was sexually assaulted. A week later, I was placed in a unit working specifically with batterers and sexual offenders.

Nancy, I have to tell you that my first instinct was to go out and take the psychological -- to get my gun so that I could deal with these individuals appropriately, in my mind.

Fortunately, I didn`t take that route. I ended up myself in therapy, working on the issues that I had about not being able to help this individual who was assaulted.

Some time later, I began working independently, when I was working on my master`s degree in social work, with an individual who was helping sexual offenders. And I found this to be -- I couldn`t understand it.

But by sitting in on the treatment groups, listening to the work that was being done by some of the offenders, and speaking to them individually about the changes they`ve made in their life, I began to believe that, you know, there is some hope that an individual, there is some hope that individual, if he possesses the capacity and the desire to change, that he can.

GRACE: You know what, Bill? I could not even imagine what your answer was going to be. But now that I`ve heard it, I`m so knocked out.

My take was, if I can just put this child molester behind bars for the maximum, maybe I can save one kid. Your take is, if I can just get my mitts on this offender and stop him from doing this again when he gets out -- and he will get out -- then I have saved one child.

I am so knocked out by you, friend.

We are taking a quick break. Everyone, please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, please call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472-2301, or go the website, CNN.com/NancyGrace.

Welcome back. In our remaining moments, I want to put the focus on two adult victims of child molestation.

Sue, final thoughts?

"SUE": Well, first of all, I feel like we`re focusing here a lot on the victims -- I mean, on, like, Bob, for example.

GRACE: The offenders.

"SUE": I have a question -- right. I have a question for you. You say that you`re in group counseling and all that. Do you work?

BOB: Yes, I do. I have a full-time job. I support myself and my family.

"SUE": Right. Well, guess what? It`s a little bit difficult for me to do all of that because I have to pay for therapy and for treatment. And I`m still not anywhere better. And I still suffer with shame and feelings of being trapped and et cetera. And who`s going to pay for all of that?

GRACE: So you`re still in therapy?

(CROSSTALK)

"SUE": I`m still in therapy right now.

GRACE: You know, child molestation victims carry this the rest of their lives.

Ali, final thoughts?

ARNGRIM: Final thoughts. If your viewers, if you`re sick and tired of people like Jake Goldenflame telling you how it should be for victims and deciding how society`s attitude towards molesters should be, please go to www.Protect.org, the National Association to Protect Children, Protect.org. I`m on the board.

We are going nationwide to change laws to protect victims. And, yes, I`m a survivor of molestation. And my therapy is seeing to it that Bob and Jake never see the light of day. Thank you.

GRACE: Allison Arngrim, she`s also known as Nellie on "Little House on the Prairie." Here in the studio with me, Sue. Thank you. Thank you to all of my guests tonight.

But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END