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Nancy Grace
Psychic Detectives
Aired December 30, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: Can holding a murder victim`s picture solve a case? Can just looking at a map miles and miles away from the scene actually find a missing person? Well, tonight, stories of psychic detectives contrary to the legal rules of evidence and never allowed before a jury. Skeptics like me? But what about the Ohio detective shot dead? With little to go on, police call in a psychic detective, Phil Jordan. And then the case of Bill Chapin (ph) -- Chapin fell into the icy waters of New York`s Finger Lakes after trying to rescue a student who also fell. Can psychic detectives do what traditional law enforcement cannot?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: Do psychic detectives solve unsolved crimes, find missing people? Exhibit number one, EMT and part-time cop Bill Chapin. Chapin falls in the freezing waters of the Finger Lakes, New York, to rescue a college student, Paul Sheers (ph). Rescuers search the water until exhaustion -- no luck. Enter psychic detective Phil Jordan.
But first tonight, to Akron, in the case of a detective, Gary Yost, murdered with his own gun while working off-duty security. At a dead end, police call in psychic detective Phil Jordan to crack the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL JORDAN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: I received a call from the Akron Police Department that they had had a murder of a police officer and wanted to know what my impressions would be on that case. When I went into the case, I specifically told the investigators, I don`t want to know anything about the case because I don`t want my information tainted by somebody else`s thoughts and theories.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the prime of his life, just 41 years old, Detective Gary Yost gunned down in the line of duty. He was an off-duty security guard that night, trying to make a couple of extra bucks. Police, at a dead, end call in a psychic detective.
Before we go to psychic detective Phil Jordan, straight out to Al Wilkinson, retired sergeant with Akron PD in the narcotics unit. Now, that`s not an easy job! Thank you for being with us, Sergeant.
AL WILKINSON, RET. SERGEANT, AKRON POLICE: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Do you recall when you learned your partner for years had been shot?
WILKINSON: Yes, I do.
GRACE: What happened?
WILKINSON: I was at home. We were off, and Gary was working an extra job. And I received a telephone call at home -- I don`t recall exactly who called me -- but that Gary had been shot at his extra job. And at that point, I went over to the crime scene.
GRACE: How long had you been partners?
WILKINSON: Gary and I worked together for ten years. We worked five years in the uniform division and then five years in detective bureau.
GRACE: Sergeant, I bet you two saw a lot together, didn`t you.
WILKINSON: Yes, we did.
GRACE: I know how deeply attached I still am, all these years later, to my various trial partners.
I want to go straight to retired detective David Van Pelt. Thank you, sir, for being with us. Detective, what happened to Yost that night? What actually went down?
DAVID VAN PELT, RET. DETECTIVE, AKRON POLICE: Well, it appears as though Gary was in the office and that he heard some noises out in the truck parking lot, probably a truck being opened. So Gary took his flashlight and went out to investigate, and it appears that he was surprised by the number of people that were actively involved in the burglary of a trailer. And they somehow wrestled his gun away from him and shot him.
GRACE: Detective, what type of a business was it? What was in that trailer that burglars would want?
VAN PELT: The trailer was loaded with brand-new radial tires, which was a fairly hot commodity at that time.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY VUILLEMIN, CO-PROSECUTOR, SUMMIT COUNTY: There was some speculation that Gary, as a narcotics officer, maybe someone, in retaliation, was setting him up for a hit.
WILKINSON: We went through everything Gary had in his locker to try to find maybe if there was a piece of information or something that could sort of give us a little direction. Came up with nothing.
VAN PELT: Crime scene reveals an open trailer that had been broken into, that contained a number of radial tires. The knees of his pants were torn and soiled, as were the palms of his hands, like he may have been knocked to the ground.
FRED ZUCH, CO-PROSECUTOR, SUMMIT COUNTY: Gary Yost did not die instantly. Coroner`s testimony was that he was shot in the back, came out from I think the right side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And suffered. Lied there and suffered. That is what happened to the detective. So to Van Pelt. Why did police come to a dead end?
VAN PELT: Well, in most cases, in a criminal homicide case, you have very few suspects. In our case, because of the nature of the assignment Gary was working on, including narcotics, we had hundreds of suspects to go through.
GRACE: Want to go to Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney. Renee, you and I usually disagree violently, but I think we can agree on one thing, a narcotics detective puts his or her life on the line every day. You know these cops wanted to solve this cop killing.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy. You have a situation here where this -- they`re absolutely at a dead end. My concern is, when you`re using a psychic, are you using it to solve a crime or maybe to just get started on a hot trail? You don`t ever want to bring any kind of psychic ability into a courtroom. After all, Nancy, you`ll agree with me, is there anything more sacred than what goes on in a courtroom?
GRACE: No. I have to agree with you. There is no way, Renee, that I would ever bring a psychic into court. Why? A, I`m a skeptic on that. But, B, because I would fear I would jeopardize the state`s case, the case representing the victim, representing the people, because somebody on that jury -- I don`t know the 12 in the jury box -- somebody on that jury may not like psychics. They may not believe in psychics. And they would hold that against the state`s case.
You`re darn right. Whether I believe it or not doesn`t matter. What matters is what that jury thinks.
ROCKWELL: Absolutely. But what about the person on the jury that takes that and runs with it and won`t listen to anything else, that has made up their mind because they say, Oh, that`s it, we found him, this is the guy, and they`re not going to listen any further?
GRACE: Yes. Yes. And to psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig. The other thing, though, what I was getting at in this case, you have a cop gunned down that lay laid there and suffered...
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right.
GRACE: ... suffered before he died, had to lay there and think about his family, think about what happened, hear the people running around him as his life ebbed away. Long story short, you want to tell me if these cops could have solved this on their own, they would have.
LUDWIG: Absolutely. And very often, people turn to psychics when they don`t have anywhere else to turn. So if you are feeling hopeless and you want to explore every possible avenue, then why not use somebody who has a good track record that you trust, who has helped you with other cases?
GRACE: Hey, Elizabeth (ph), can you show me that shot of Detective Gary Yost one more time? Gary Yost, 41 years old, Akron Police Department, narcotics -- look at that, scrubbed in sunshine, grew up to be a cop.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILKINSON: There`s a lot of anger. You bet there`s a lot of anger. We always talk about the thin blue line that`s all that stands between the community and anarchy, and it`s a wake-up call for the cops.
VUILLEMIN: There was just this laundry list of people that they were looking at and shaking down.
VAN PELT: We had a large number of suspects, but we really didn`t have any viable suspects that we could say, Let`s spend some more time with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to retired detective David Van Pelt. So when did cops reach a dead end, hit a brick wall, and decide they had to call a psychic?
VAN PELT: Well, we had gone through our laundry list of suspects, and we, again, had no viable suspects, so we were looking for things that would help us. And one of the sergeants involved in the case had heard about Phil Jordan and decided to contact him and see if there was any possibility that he could help us.
GRACE: And what were your feelings at that time, when you realized a psychic would be brought in?
VAN PELT: Well, as you know, Nancy, as a prosecutor, and police officers in general are used to working with physical, tangible evidence, something that they can see or touch or feel. And so obviously, a little skeptical.
GRACE: And to Al Wilkinson. This was Yost`s partner for many, many years. What were your thoughts when you discovered Akron PD was calling in a psychic to solve your partner`s murder?
WILKINSON: Well, once again, as David said, we`re pretty much used to dealing with direct physical evidence. And I think most policemen, when you talk about psychic detectives, are a little skeptical and wait and see what happens. We were looking for something to go on, and we felt it was worth a shot.
GRACE: Everybody, when we get back, I`m going to introduce you to the psychic detective that is credited with cracking the case, Phil Jordan. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shocking crime hits close to home.
VUILLEMIN: When a police officer is injured, killed, or that call goes out, Officer down, there is a response, and there is a response in numbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With little else to go on, police must rely on a different kind of witness.
JORDAN: Dark. I see shadows. I immediately felt that it was not a personal vendetta.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in Akron, Ohio, are working around the clock to solve the murder of one of their own.
VUILLEMIN: When a police officer is injured, killed, or that call goes out, Officer down, there is a response, and there is a response in numbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Psychic Phil Jordan has given detectives their first clue.
JORDAN: I didn`t feel that it was a hit of any kind. I felt as though it was a robbery, a robbery gone bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But for now, the shooter walks free. Investigators need more information to track him down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Forty-one-year-old detective Gary Yost gunned down in the line of duty. The guy was a narcotics detective during the day, a cop at night. He tried to make extra money working security when he was ambushed by a gang, a gang of men that police seemingly could not identify. Enter psychic Phil Jordan.
Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Look, if you`re a skeptic like me, fine. But first, take a listen to Phil Jordan. Sir, welcome. Thank you for being with us. When were you called in to solve this homicide?
JORDAN: Well, Nancy, I was called in by the Akron police a while after the incident happened, and they had sent me a photo of Officer Yost. I did a report to them, and then they asked me to come out to the scene.
GRACE: They sent you a photo, and you did a report off a photo? What do you mean by a report?
JORDAN: When I do crime scene reconstruction, I call it, I will take a picture of the person who may be deceased or missing or having been murdered, or whatever the case may be. I don`t want a lot of information on the case, I just want to do a report or a crime scene reconstruction, which I talk into a cassette recorder and do a 10 or 15-minute tape, telling what I feel actually happened at the scene of the incident.
GRACE: And from just seeing his photo, what vibration did you get? Now, see, right there, Renee, that`s a question you could never ask in court -- what vibration did you get? There would be an immediate objection, like a nuclear missile coming out of the defense! What vibration? Excuse me. Objection! Vibrations not admissible in court!
ROCKWELL: And of course, he`s talking about what he`s feeling. So -- and how do you cross-examine that? But go ahead, sir.
JORDAN: Well, what I do is, as I look at the picture, I perceive things about the person. I may perceive things that are going in their everyday life, but I try to focus on the time of their death and what I feel happened.
And in this case, I felt that it was a robbery gone bad. I felt that there was five individuals involved. I felt that it was for the motive of robbery. I remember one thing that I found very interesting was being -- seeing a basketball hoop and couldn`t figure out why that was there. But as Officer Yost was taken to the ground and lay dying, across the way was a basketball hoop in another parking lot, that was probably right in his line of vision.
GRACE: And you put all of this...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You got these vibrations from holding his photo, and you put this in writing. Is that correct?
JORDAN: And I put it in writing. Yes.
GRACE: OK. Did you ever feel, handle, observe any of his, Detective Yost`s, belongings?
JORDAN: I did. When I went to Akron, Ohio, they showed me some of the evidence, along with other pictures. And again, I do another crime scene reconstruction, and I was able to see the weapon that killed him. And as I touched that -- of course, it was in an evidence bag -- I immediately felt that the person that pulled the trigger had the tip of the trigger finger missing from the finger that pulled the trigger.
GRACE: Did you handle any of the detective`s belongings?
JORDAN: That was quite a while ago, so I can`t recall, but I believe they probably had other evidence there. I believe there was a watch there and some other things that I was able to work with. That`s not absolutely necessary for me. Some people that work in my work it is necessary for, but it`s not absolutely necessary for me.
GRACE: You handled his watch?
JORDAN: I believe that I did, yes.
GRACE: Hold on. Experiment. OK. Nothing coming. Getting -- no, absolutely nothing!
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: To retired detective David Van Pelt. When you first got this written report from the psychic, what did you think? He says he sees a basketball hoop and there are five people involved.
VAN PELT: Well, we knew from the crime scene photographs that there was a basketball hoop in an adjoining parking lot. And it had been one of the investigator`s theories all along that there had to be more than one or two people involved in this, due to Gary`s size and abilities physically.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Psychic Phil Jordan believes slain narcotics officer Yost knew his attackers through his undercover work
VAN PELT: Immediately now, we start looking backwards into cases. And who have we dealt with in the last year? We went back to our files, and we put together numbers of photographs of people who had been involved with us over the period of the last year or so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The list balloons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a cop killer behind bars, detectives realize how much they gained from the psychic`s insight.
VAN PELT: Well, it helped us narrow our focus. We were going in so many directions. Don Webb (ph) is one of the pictures that the psychic picked out and put to the side, which made this thing kind of come together even more.
WILKINSON: It was pretty specific. You know, it wasn`t way out in left field somewhere. And it was something to go on and something to work with, and we were looking for that. Who`s to say that there isn`t something there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Akron police at a dead end trying to solve the murder of one of their own, gunned down in the line of duty.
I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Finally, they call in a psychic. To Al Wilkinson, former Akron Police Department sergeant. So when you got this written report from the psychic, detailing a vision of the basketball hoop, of five people being involved, he came to the scene, he senses or has a vision of some sort that the trigger person is missing part of a digit. What did you do then to solve the case?
WILKINSON: Well, we, of course, started going into suspects that were known to the drug unit. And we tried to narrow it down to people that perhaps we`d had altercations with of some type in the past, during an arrest or some situation like that. And I think -- as I recall, we narrowed it down to about 35 to 40 suspects that we...
GRACE: Did you show him photos?
WILKINSON: Yes. We pulled photographs of these people, and as I recall, we laid them out for Phil and had him go through them.
GRACE: And to David Van Pelt, retired detective also from Akron PD. What happened when he saw all these photos?
VAN PELT: Well, Phil examined all the photos, and then he gave us an impression that -- he picked five of the photos and gave us the impression that these five people were possibly involved in the case.
GRACE: Then what happened?
VAN PELT: Well, then we started doing extensive backgrounds on these people as to where they are, where they were, where they`d been, if they had any alibis for the night that the incident happened. And it started a new avenue of investigation.
GRACE: And?
WILKINSON: And these five people ended up being arrested and charged.
GRACE: Arrested and charged in the murder of Detective Gary Yost.
WILKINSON: That`s correct.
GRACE: What happened to the case?
WILKINSON: Well, one of the defendants pled guilty almost immediately. Two others were found guilty, and two were found not guilty.
GRACE: Phil Jordan, when you realize the power that you say you have, that`s an incredible burden. It`s a duty.
JORDAN: I consider it a gift. I believe that we are all given gifts. I believe we all have talents. And I think the more I work with my ability and gifts, the more my talent expounds itself and shows itself. And I just am grateful that I`m able to use my talents and my gifts in a way that can help our fellow human beings.
GRACE: And very quickly, to Al Wilkinson. Did the use of a psychic come into the jury trial?
WILKINSON: No, it did not.
GRACE: Whew! So Renee Rockwell, what do you say to that?
ROCKWELL: Well, you know, Nancy, you really can`t argue with that, can you. But my -- just out of curiosity, did anybody have part of their finger missing?
GRACE: Good question. Did they, Phil Jordan?
JORDAN: Yes, they did.
GRACE: And which one was it? Which one was it, Phil?
JORDAN: I`m not sure of the names of the individuals, so I believe it was the man they figured was the trigger man. But I think the detectives could relate that to you.
GRACE: I think that says it all. OK, Renee, skeptic, put that in your pipe and smoke it. We`ll all be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspects Phil Jordan identified are all in custody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re dealing with all drug people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have a drug person that is not dependable, both from what he says and does, but quite frankly, what he remembers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But getting information out of them is nearly impossible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): In upstate New York, two young men mysteriously disappear and a frantic community mobilizes to find them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tremendous amounts of ice, rushing water, darkness was coming on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the search party reaches a dead end, desperate police turn to an unlikely source for help.
PHIL JORDAN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: I keep seeing a red flower.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can a psychic`s bizarre vision help rescuers bring the lost men home?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Imagine diving into the icy waters of the New York Finger Lakes to save a college student who slipped in. Well, that is exactly what Bill Chapin did trying to rescue another. He lost his life. But then, after exhaustive searches, the men could not be found.
I`m going to go straight out to Don Murray, retired chief of the New York State Parks Police, Finger Lake Division. Don Murray, thank you for being with us, sir. It`s a real pleasure.
DON MURRAY, RETIRED CHIEF OF NEW YORK STATE PARK POLICE: You`re welcome. Thank you.
GRACE: Do you recall this incident?
MURRAY: Yes, I do.
GRACE: What happened?
MURRAY: Well, it was a sunny, spring-type afternoon on March 15, 1986. We`d had several days of warm weather and several days of rain. And the two college students that were involved from Cornell opted to enter a closed area at the Buttermilk Falls State Park gorge area and walk in for a hike, passing fenced-in areas and a warning sign.
GRACE: In other words, exactly where they were not supposed to be.
MURRAY: Absolutely, hazardous conditions posted on the sign, and it turned out to be a fatal decision.
GRACE: And I understand that, even though it was finally a sunny day that day, the water was still incredibly cold.
MURRAY: Absolutely. The runoff from the snow pack in the hills above the park was flowing at a white flood stage, whitewater flood stage, down to the gorge. And it was extremely cold, both in the water and down in the gorge.
GRACE: In fact, the trails were closed because of ice. And here come these two students. So how did Chapin get involved?
MURRAY: He was preparing to attend a retirement party.
GRACE: Oh, gosh.
MURRAY: And he was dressed in civilian clothes, and a sport coat and dress clothes. And the call came in. And since he lived and resided at the ambulance barracks, he opted to respond to the park. He also was a part-time police officer for me during the summer. He knew that area. He wanted to help and see what he could do to come up with a rescue.
GRACE: And, of course, with his background -- everybody, Chapin was a part-time cop and a certified EMT. So of all people, he reached down deep and felt the call to save. So what happened then, Don?
MURRAY: Well, he entered the same area that the college students had entered. Unfortunately, the conditions were at its worst, after a complete winter of freezing temperatures. The ice pack was from six to eight inches thick and it had frozen, making an ice slide towards the stream bed or the creek bed. And, upon entering that ice floe, ice pack, he had slipped, lost his footing, and slid into the creek.
GRACE: And then, after exhaustive search, neither of the men could be found.
MURRAY: Correct. The water was, again, at flood stage, whitewater, just roaring down to the gorge. It drops in that area 600 feet in three- quarters of a mile, so it was just racing down through the gorge.
GRACE: And how difficult was this terrain to search? And there was always the possibility that they could have gone under and come up somewhere along this very difficult terrain and could be dying of exposure at that very moment, the whole time that you were searching.
MURRAY: Well, absolutely. The conditions the night that we lost Bill and the college students was late in the evening. Darkness had fallen. The ice conditions were such that we couldn`t risk sending anybody else down the gorge trail.
That was the hardest decision, to stop the search for that night. However, we did post people searching on the rim trail above the gorge, calling out Bill Chapin`s name, using flashlights and any available light to see if we could locate anybody that had surfaced and found a safe haven.
GRACE: I`m going to go out to a very dear friend of the victim, Bill Chapin, who is joining us today, Jeff Bangs. Jeff, I want to thank you for being with us. When did you learn about your friend?
JEFF BANGS, FRIEND OF BILL CHAPIN: As Don said, there was a retirement party for one of our employees at the time. And myself and Dale Johnson, another very good friend, close friend, of Chapin`s were at the party. And we heard the call go out, didn`t think of it at the time. And then all of a sudden, on the radio we heard that a rescue personnel had also fallen in. And I looked at Dale and Dale looked at me, and we knew who it was.
GRACE: Why did you immediately know it was your friend and coworker, Bill Chapin?
BANGS: Just the community spirit he had, and he was above and beyond, as far as anymore I have ever met to help another individual.
GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, we see so many bad actors, you know, child molesters, dopers, killers. Why is it that it`s always a decent guy, the hero, that gets killed? Why is that?
ROCKWELL: Maybe...
GRACE: Have you ever noticed that in your practice?
ROCKWELL: Yes. And every now and then, the angels are picked, Nancy. The angels are picked. And this is one here, you see.
GRACE: Yes, you`re looking right at one right now.
And, Dr. Robi Ludwig, once again, we see within this community cops, EMTs, the whole community joining together to find one of their own, the pressure unbearable.
LUDWIG: Yes, absolutely. And also, they have an intimate understanding of what these police officers go through every day. I mean, really, they put their lives on the line every day. And so when a life is lost, it is just so tragic.
GRACE: And especially in this case, where the cops were not even sure he was dead. He could be alive, for all they know, until enter psychic Phil Jordan. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORDAN: The information comes to me using all of my senses. I can hear things. I see things. I smell things. I feel things. It`s sort of like I`m taken into a very intense daydream.
There`s a lot of emotions in a search, and it`s very easy to allow your human self to be caught up in those emotions. And that can detract from your psychic self. So you sort of have to maintain your own psychic individuality, your own psychic self, in order to fulfill the mission, so to speak.
I met with some of the rescue personnel that were on the scene. I began to talk with them about the map that I had drawn. For some reason, I keep seeing a red flower, and I don`t know what that`s going to mean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Phil had mentioned that there would be one area below the main falls where we would locate a piece of clothing of some sort.
JORDAN: I actually felt as though they might bring something out of the water, but I didn`t feel that it would be a body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Dr. Robi Ludwig, you know, we all have questions about psychics. I`ve never introduced a single one into a single case I tried ever. How are they tested?
LUDWIG: Well, and many psychics who are authentic like the idea of being tested. Some will even undergo an EEG, where their brainwaves are monitored. And what they`ll show is that the brain waves will actually switch to the opposite side of the brain when they`re assessing psychometrize (ph), when they assess what an object, who it belongs to, and the characterology of the person that they`re trying to assess.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Rescuers in upstate New York are in a race against the clock to find Paul Sheers and Bill Chapin, two men who`ve fallen into the rushing rapids of Buttermilk Creek.
After unsafe conditions forced them to call off their search for the night, Lieutenant Murray, desperate for help wherever he can get it, takes a dramatic departure from police protocol and contacts psychic Phil Jordan. Jordan agrees to help the search party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): It`s been two days since Paul Sheers and Bill Chapin tumbled into the icy rapids of Buttermilk Creek. A psychic has located Chapin`s sport coat, but there`s still no sign of the missing men.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The searchers were becoming frustrated due to the fact that we hadn`t made the recovery yet and that resources were becoming a problem, equipment and the weather. Temperatures were very difficult to work in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Hope begins to fade, and the mood at the scene changes. Searchers have to face facts: This isn`t a rescue mission anymore. Now they are looking for bodies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. Police, EMTs, the whole law enforcement community banding together to find this man, part-time cop, certified EMT, who risked his own life to save a student. Bill Chapin dived into the icy waters of New York`s Finger Lakes and was not seen again.
Very quickly, out to Don Murray. When did you realize that you were no longer searching for your friend, you were searching for a body?
MURRAY: I would say the following day after the night had passed. The way the water was flowing and rushing down to the gorge and the cold temperatures, I couldn`t imagine how anybody could have survived that roaring rapid. It just wasn`t going to be. We had to start to look for the bodies.
GRACE: And I understand that you all gathered there on the bridge overlooking the water when you realized he had to be dead.
MURRAY: Yes. We had a memorial service on the bridge that crosses the gorge area on the following Tuesday night, where we had some moments of silence and tossed a wreath into the gorge.
GRACE: And then, of course, psychic Phil Jordan has a vision of flowers going into the water. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORDAN: I don`t believe that they`ve gotten out of the park area here yet.
I immediately sensed they were still up in the gorge. I knew they hadn`t gone beyond that point, and so I knew that I was able to direct people more precisely where they might be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He felt strongly that the bodies were still in the gorge area, possibly in one of the plunge pools. So that`s where we generally were focusing our main efforts.
JORDAN: I suddenly could see a red flower, and I consciously couldn`t figure out why a red flower would be there, because it was late winter, early spring, and there wouldn`t be any red flowers in bloom. And I felt as though one of the men, the larger of the two, was probably located near where that flower was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back out to retired chief of New York State Parks Police, Finger Lake division, Don Murray, Don, when did you decide you had to call in a psychic?
MURRAY: Well, I believe it was about the third day into the search.
GRACE: And how long is this waterway? How many miles does it encompass?
MURRAY: Well, the area that we were working in, in the gorge area, it was three-quarters of a mile. But past the park, the creek continues on down to the inlet into Cayuga Lake, and then out into a 40-mile lake.
GRACE: Oh, lord.
MURRAY: So we really wanted to try to...
GRACE: You had to find him then. You had to find him before his body went any further.
MURRAY: Absolutely.
GRACE: Hey, Elizabeth, could you show that map again?
I`m going to go straight out now to psychic Phil Jordan. Phil, what happened?
JORDAN: Well, I had been aware of the search because it was only about 15 miles from my home, so I was aware of what was happening and was wondering if I would be called in on the search because, at that time, I had done several different police cases and thought maybe they would call me in.
And on the Wednesday morning, they contacted me and sent me a map of the gorge. And I put some x`s on the map where I felt they would find evidence of where the bodies may be.
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Right there, if somebody sent me a map, I mean, I don`t know how I would go about trying to identify where I thought they could find two bodies. I mean, how do you do that?
JORDAN: Well, one of my -- one of the parts of my gift seems to be able to take a map -- and I`ve done it on several different cases -- where I can take a map and pinpoint certain areas where they may find evidence, or they may find a body, or they may find a weapon, or they may find something significant to the case. And so I sit with the map and then just suddenly visualize on the map where I think there`s going to be something significant.
GRACE: So you mark spots on the map. X marks the spots. Then what did you do?
JORDAN: That`s right. And then I returned the map to the investigation team. And then, the next day, I went to the scene of the incident.
GRACE: I want to go back out to Don Murray. What happened when you received the map and when Phil Jordan, the psychic, came to the scene?
MURRAY: Well, we discussed the x`s that he`d marked on the map. And it appeared to be three major plunge pools below the point of entry into the creek. These areas were deep...
GRACE: What`s a plunge pool? What`s a plunge pool, number one?
MURRAY: A plunge pool is eroded area in the creek bed. Over the years, the swirling action sculpts out a deep hole in the creek bed.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
MURRAY: These were approximately 20 feet deep.
GRACE: So you got the map. You went to the location. And?
MURRAY: We started focusing our efforts on our dive team. Again, we were still fighting the elements because of high water, the cold temperatures and ice. We had to repel our diving teams and searchers down to the plunge pools by repelling lines, because there was no...
GRACE: That is really hard to do, to dive -- I`m a diver -- but to dive in those extreme conditions. And you were repelling them down?
MURRAY: Yes. And there was no way of walking or getting down there without repelling down to the entry into the creek.
GRACE: Man. So, long story short, what was the significance of the x`s on the map?
MURRAY: Well, the major plunge pool, the first plunge pool we came to had a log that had fallen into the creek bed. And underneath that log, after further searching, we found Bill Chapin`s body. On the water surface, rescuers advised me that there was flowers located above the location.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Psychic Phil Jordan has directed the search party to a series of plunge pools deep in the gorge and advised them to be on the lookout for red flowers. No one expects to actually see flowers this time of year, until rescuer Steve Yagel (ph) makes an eerie discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knowing what Phil Jordan had said the day before, I was shocked and felt a little strange about it. But, at the same time, you know, I believed what I was seeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: It`s the end of year one here at Headline News. The NANCY GRACE staff put together a special surprise. I thought you would love it just as much as I did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, what do you know?
Are they kidding?
Everything is bass ackwards!
Man, oh, Manischewitz! That`s a legal term.
Holy moly! The new technique is to be nice? That`s the secret weapon?
It`s all about love!
See no evil, Mikey. Speak no evil.
My anger is not directed toward you. You`re just the messenger.
Sit down and shut up!
I am stunned!
On time and wearing his pants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, my biggest thank you is to you, as always, for being with us and inviting this story and all of us into your homes. Remember, Court TV`s New Year`s Day "Psychic Detective" marathon 12:00 to 12:00 a.m. Eastern.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off. As New Year`s Eve approaches, I wish you well and give you thanks.
My New Year`s wish? For all violent criminals to be where they belong: behind bars.
See you right here weeknights, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, friend.
END
