Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Rescue Crews Work to Reach 13 Miners Trapped Underground

Aired January 03, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight: Danger. Nearly 400 feet below the surface of the earth, 13 coal miners may still be alive. Tonight, desperation is growing. It has come to light, however, that this coal mine has more than 200 safety infractions, safety violations, under the belt (ph). The last review, in just 11 weeks ending December 22, 46 violations in just 11 weeks. Can they survive? Can they be rescued?
And also tonight, a picture perfect family of four murdered New Year`s Day in their own home, Richmond, Virginia, Brian (ph) and Catherine Harvey (ph), their daughters, 9-year-old Stella (ph), 4-year-old Ruby (ph), bound with duct tape in the basement. None of them survived. Tonight we search for clues.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight: New Year`s Day, Richmond, Virginia, firefighters respond to a house fire, only to find four family members, including girls 4 and 9, throats cut, each bound with duct tape.

But first tonight, breaking news. We are live at a West Virginia coal mining town, 13 miners trapped hundreds of feet underground. At this hour, no one knows if the miners are still alive. The Sago mine, 208 violations -- 208 violations -- year 2005. Did those violations have anything to do with this blast?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) He`s a good friend. He don`t deserve this. All of them are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Once again with us tonight, CNN correspondent and anchor Anderson Cooper, there at the coal mine. Anderson, welcome back, friend. Bring us up to date.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Nancy, we heard a short time ago from a representative of the mining company, who said, We`ve made significant progress, but we are in need of a miracle here. That is -- that is the best thing that can happen here. That is the only thing that can save these miners at this point.

We anticipate hearing sometime in the next two to three hours exactly what is happening. At last count -- when we last heard from the mining company was at 5:20 in the afternoon. They said they were within 1,000 to 2,000 feet of where they believe these miners were located. These -- these -- this rescue team has been making slow but significant and steady progress. They`ve been moving about 1,000 feet per hour over the last 24 hours or so. So it is very likely that anytime between now and, say, 10:00 or 11:00 o`clock that they will in some way make contact with the miners. That according to company officials. So we are waiting and watching the clock very closely to get the latest information.

Where we are right now, Nancy, is an area where most of the families have been gathering for these 30-plus hours since this horrible incident began. There`s a church. You can`t see it because it`s too dark. But far over my shoulder, a couple hundred yards from here, that`s where hundreds of family members have been gathering on and off throughout the day. That is where many of them are gathered right now.

And they are the ones who receive the information first, and that is certainly the way it should be. Company representatives go talk to them and then go talk to brief the media what they told the family members. But they have -- the family members have not been told one way or the other what is happening, at this point. We simply do not know if these miners are alive or not, Nancy.

GRACE: Anderson, a lot of people have been twisted up on this, including myself. Now, we know that they are a little over 200 feet -- correct me if I`m wrong, Anderson, because you`re there on the scene -- below the surface of the earth. But -- why are they mining 12,000 feet to get to them? Could you explain that for us?

COOPER: Right. Yes, I know it`s confusing. Basically, this is what they call a drift mine. You know, most of us think of mines that go straight down. That`s not what this is. This is essentially -- imagine it as a tunnel that you walk into, into the side of a mountain. So it`s 10,000 to 13,000 feet into that mine, but that 13,000 feet basically slopes down over the course of 13,000 feet -- it slopes down about 260 feet. So the area where the miners is, is 260 feet below the ground level, but it`s deep into this mine, if you will. It`s not deep into the earth, but it is deep into this mine. And that`s why it is taking so long.

They`d hoped to drill down a quicker way, to drill down that 260-plus feet, but that has not gone as well as they had hoped. That`s why all the -- all the...

GRACE: Why?

COOPER: Well, they tried the first drill -- first of all, just getting this big drill up to the location was difficult. They kept delaying the time. You know, they said the drilling was going to start at 9:00 o`clock last night. Then they said, Oh, it`ll start at 10:30 last night. Didn`t start at any of those times. Just clearing a place to get this drill into position was very difficult, triangulating the position of exactly where to drill because you got to be incredibly precise.

Back at the Quecreek mine, Nancy, back in July of 2002, they hit it right on the mark. That drill went through. It`s about a 6-inch drill -- went right to where the miners are, and it was the miners who started tapping on that drill.

Finally, they did get one drill down. They put a camera down there. They didn`t see any massive mine damage from an explosion, which is maybe what they had anticipated seeing, but they didn`t see any sign of the miners, either. They drilled two other holes. The other one hit water, and the other was not as successful as they had wanted. They`ve actually stopped those other two drillings because the miners on foot, the rescue teams, have made such significant progress. They don`t want to upset sort of the delicate balance of the area where the miners may be. They`re now depending on those rescuers on foot to see with their own eyes, Nancy, what`s happening.

GRACE: With us there, Anderson Cooper. Here is what the CEO of ICG had to say. That`s International Coal Group.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN HATFIELD, INTERNATIONAL MINING GROUP: Mine rescue teams continue to move quickly toward the second left section area, where we are hopeful the missing miners are located. We`ve now advanced a total distance of about 11,200 feet, which is the distance from the mine portal to break number 56. At current pace, we are hopeful the rescue crews will reach the furthest extent of the second left section within the next three to five hours.

It is our goal to keep hope alive while there is hope, and we don`t want to discourage anyone that believes we can get there. We believe we can get there, if the crew has managed to barricade themselves and kept themselves protected from the toxic fumes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Anderson Cooper there in West Virginia. Anderson, why do you say we`re losing hope? Where are we losing hope?

COOPER: Well, Nancy, the readings they got when they -- when they got the drill down this morning, when they got air readings, they got carbon monoxide readings in that air which are three times the lethal dose. A person could last for about -- the way they quantify it, is a certain dosage that a person could last 15 minutes in. Well, this was three times that dosage. So that is certainly not good news.

The hope is, and the only hope that there is, Nancy, honestly, is that there was some sort of air pocket, that there was some area that these miners, who are all experienced miners -- I mean, 30-plus years of mining for many of these guys, tough guys -- the hope is that they found a pocket, an area that they could, you know, basically barricade themselves in and just hold on until help arrived.

And really, we`re talking about any minute now, Nancy. I mean, you heard in that sound bite from the guy who runs the mining company three to five hours. Well, that was back at 5:20. That three-hour window would be 8:20, which is in just a couple of minutes. So anywhere from 8:20 to 10:30, we are hoping that they make contact with those miners. That would be the first contact they have made.

And just imagine, Nancy, I mean, while we -- you know, it`s nasty up here, but imagine what it is like down in that mine, 4 to 6 feet high, 20 feet wide, pitch black. It is damp. There`s water running through it. I mean, these people have been down there more than 30 hours.

It is just a very difficult situation, as you can imagine, not only for the miners down there but the families that are waiting here, you know, in the rain, waiting in this church. And they were singing "Amazing Grace," I`m told, in the church a short time ago. It is just a very somber mood here right now, Nancy.

GRACE: Anderson, you just said something that really struck me -- 30 years of going down into those dark coal mines for a living, so far under the earth? Can you imagine it, 30 years of your life, Anderson, working down in a coal mine?

COOPER: Yes, let me tell you, one of the guys who`s down there, Terry Holt (ph), is a -- he`s been doing it, I think -- well, 20-plus years, I think, and he drives two hours each way to get to this job. He works three days on, three days off. And the schedule is brutal.

You know, it is a very tough living. He actually told his son he didn`t want his son involved in mining. His son now lives in Myrtle Beach and is looking for another line of work. But you know, for -- it goes back generations for a lot of families in this area. And this is a community which has really pulled together. This is a community which, you know, is paying close attention to this.

When I drove up here last night, I guess it was, you know, I drove by a lot of people`s homes, and you could see into their living rooms people just gathered around the television, families just watching the news, waiting for any word. This is a community -- they put up signs all over saying, you know, Pray for the miners, pray for their families. And that is what everyone is doing right now over these next very delicate hours, Nancy.

GRACE: Anderson, we certainly are -- standing by is Anderson Cooper.

Very quickly to CNN correspondent Kwung Lah. She is there at the mine. What`s going on there now? Thank you for being with us, Kwung Lah.

KWUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You bet, Nancy. What`s happening here is that we`re actually waiting for a news conference, a little more information directly from the mining company. The head of the mining company has been coming out every few hours and updating the media after they`ve talked to some of the family members and letting us know about the exact progress throughout the day.

The last press conference that was held here a few hours ago, about three hours ago, two hours, 40 minutes ago, there was a marked change in tone in the head of the mining company, a bit more of a somber tone, saying that it is a sad day, but saying that they will keep the efforts alive, that they will keep searching at 100 percent levels as long as there is some hope.

GRACE: To Kwung Lah, CNN correspondent, there at the scene of the mine, my question is this. I understand that the air below is so dangerous and so toxic, it put off the rescue attempt. Now...

LAH: That is exactly right.

GRACE: OK. I understand also that there have been around -- according to the Associated Press, 208 safety infractions at this mine, the Sago mine, and some of them are for carbon monoxide in the air. Question. Do those infractions have anything to do with this explosion?

LAH: Well, at this point, what the mining company has said -- the head of the mining company says, from what they have seen, it appears that this may be a methane explosion. He`s not saying that that is the case, but as far as what they can tell, that it does appear to like a methane explosion. At this point, we don`t know how that fits in with the safety records. What we do know is that, according to the federal government, that in the year 2004, Sago mines, as compared to other mines of the exact same size...

GRACE: Three times.

LAH: ... it had three times the injury rate.

GRACE: Kwung Lah, you`re absolutely correct. Anderson Cooper, did you hear that? This mine, for its capacity, has three times the accidents as other mines in this country. Why, Anderson? Now, listen, we don`t know exactly if there`s a connection between the infractions, the violations, and this explosion. But Anderson, when you don`t know a horse, you look at its track record. What do you know about this explosion? Why did it happen? And also, Anderson, why don`t they have -- I know there`s an underground phone system. But you give miners the tools to see and to mine. Why don`t you give them the tools to communicate?

COOPER: Well, number one, the communication was there, but that was - - they believe that was just knocked out by the explosion. You got to remember, this is, from all reports, a pretty massive explosion, occurred around 6:20 or so AM, knocked out electricity, knocked out the phone lines. They do have a communication system down there, but they lost communication with the miners. And the phones, which are in the mine itself, they also lost communication with. They`ve also been trying to rebuild those as they go into this mine. They do have communication, of course, with the rescue miners.

Talking about the safety record. You know, that is clearly something in the days and weeks ahead, there are going to be a lot of questions about, and people are going to be poring over this with a fine-tooth comb. The company has said, at this point, Look, we only recently took over this mine. Safety has improved greatly under our record. And if the federal government really had problems with the safety of this mine, they would have shut it down. That is what the company is saying and what they have said.

But that is a question, Nancy. Those are questions that we`re going to hear a lot more about tomorrow and the next days. Right now, everyone is focused on what is happening 270 feet beneath the surface of the earth right here in Sago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON COTTRILL, NEIGHBOR: About a quarter after 6:00 yesterday morning, it was storming, but this was a different sound than thunder. And it was a big boom, and then it just kind of rumbled off, just like it was going through the tube. And I`ll tell you what, it shook houses all around here and woke everybody up. And you could tell it was a different sound than thunder.

Everybody just jumped up and said, What was that? What was that? And then in a little while, just a few minutes later, somebody called my wife and said (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. This particular mine, Sago mine, has had over 200 infractions in the last year. In one 11-week period ending December 22, they had 46 infractions. Did any of those infractions lead to this explosion that is now risking the lives of 13 miners?

Straight out to Anderson Cooper standing by there in West Virginia. Anderson, what can you tell me about the robotic device that was sent down in the mine?

COOPER: I can tell you that it didn`t really do much. They had a lot of hopes pinned on that robotic device. We`re told that it basically got stuck in the mud, ran into some obstacles it just couldn`t overcome.

What this has boiled down to, really, is human effort. I mean, it is -- it is a group of men, a group of miners who are going, leap-frogging team after team, one going, then another going in front of it, who, around the clock, have been the ones making the progress on this. I mean, the drills have been kind of a letdown, not as successful as they had hoped. That robotic device also kind of a letdown. But it is these miners who, in the next couple hours, we anticipate are going to make contact with the 13 miners who have been down there. And -- so that`s basically all I can tell you about the robotic device.

GRACE: And Anderson, before I let you go, have you spoken to any of the family members?

COOPER: Yes, we have. I mean, you know, they`re all around, and we talk to them. And I know you`re going to talk to some coming up. I mean, it is -- they are just such -- they`re really hanging together. I mean, they are really -- they`re joined together. You know, a lot of them have been here literally around the clock. I mean, it`ll be 40-plus hours at 10:00 o`clock tonight. So I mean, they have been up for hours and hours and hours.

You know, last night, I mean, I went to a hotel and slept for about an hour-and-a-half, and when I left, I mean, I saw families huddled under blankets that were given to them by the Red Cross, just waiting, just out in the elements, just waiting, you know, just hoping. They just didn`t want to leave the scene, just in case something happened, just in case their loved one came out. They wanted to be there.

GRACE: You know, Anderson, I saw some raw footage of you driving around town, looking around town. I don`t know if it ever made air or not. But you passed, I guess it was a church, and you said, Everyone is praying. Anderson, is there -- is everybody giving up on a miracle?

COOPER: No. I don`t think so. I don`t think so at all. I mean, I got to tell you, people -- you know, everyone -- all of us who have been here this whole time, we`re committed to seeing this through. And I mean, people are optimistic and believe, you know, a miracle can happen. I mean, these are -- you know, you got to go back to who these miners are, I mean, the amount of experience these men have is extraordinary. These are tough guys. And if anybody can pull through, if anybody can do it in this kind of a situation, it is men like this, with this kind of experience. If I was down in the mine, these are the kind of guys I would want to be with, with that level of experience.

So you know, you got to put your hope and your faith in their abilities, of the training they`ve had and knowing these mines like the back of their hands. And that is where the hope lies tonight, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what, Anderson? I somehow don`t think it`s up to them anymore. I think -- I think it -- it`s a miracle that we`re looking for. Anderson Cooper joining us live. Thank you, friend.

COOPER: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly, to tonight`s "Trial Tracking." Hundreds gathered for the funeral of another university student, Olemadu Adujoje, whose burned remains found in a Mississippi house, October.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw her growing into such a beautiful person, and it really hurts me that somebody had to do this to her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, Maurice Wallace (ph), charged with the 21-year-old`s murder, pleads not guilty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: These are brave people and good people, hard-working people. And the families are clinging and pulling together and drawing off of each other`s -- off of each other`s strength, inner strength. And it`s really what gets us through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Tonight, the fate of 13 miners rests in the hands of a rescue team. I want to go straight out to Cecelia Hart-Hodges with the American Red Cross. What is the Red Cross doing tonight, Cecelia, to help the families?

CECELIA HART-HODGES, RED CROSS PUBLIC RELATIONS: Well, we have food that we are serving. We have mental health -- trained mental health professionals that are there right -- working with the families, assigned to families, even. Each family has a worker. We`ve got cots set up for those who need to stay. But our job is just holding their hands and just listening to them and trying to keep them comfortable.

GRACE: To Kwung Lah, CNN correspondent. My question is, why does it seem that, at this hour, there is diminishing hope of rescuing them? And can you make any connection between these prior infractions and this explosion? Because if you can, they are so liable in a court of law, possibly even criminal liability.

LAH: And the record -- the federal record is quite extensive, as you said. But it`s impossible for us to know, without knowing what the cause of the actual explosion was, if we can make any sort of connection. We have to wait for the investigation. And at this point, the company is certainly not even speculating as to what the cause is, only saying that it appears it may be a methane explosion-related, that that`s what it appears to be. But that`s as far as they`re going to go, so we can`t make any connections for you there.

But at this point, they say they`re going to put everything they can into trying to find these men and trying to pull them out alive.

GRACE: To Bruce Dial, mine safety expert, 30 years in the mining industry. Bruce, is this an unusual explosion? How often does this happen?

BRUCE DIAL, MINE SAFETY EXPERT: Well, these seem to happen, oh, every three to five years, Nancy. They do happen in different situations. Wintertime is one of the worst times of the year for these type of explosions.

GRACE: Now, if they only happen three to four years apart, what causes them? And Bruce, you`re the expert. Do you see any connection -- I`m trying to make a legal nexus between the infractions, which I know involved toxic air, and this explosion?

DIAL: Yes, they had, like you said, I think 208 violations in the year of 2005. To use an analogy to explain that, say part of those 208 would be like parking tickets, part of them would be speeding tickets, where you are doing something dangerous, but if you slow down you`ll be OK. And then part of them are like drunk driving tickets. They`re imminent danger. It has to stop right now. So as the inspectors go through and make these inspections, they`ll issue these different types of tickets. If they find one that is an imminent danger, they will shut the whole mine down at that time.

GRACE: To Richard Lohr, very quickly, you were involved in the 2002 successful rescue in Somerset County. What is your comparison?

RICHARD LOHR, SOMERSET CO. EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT, COORDINATED 2002 MINE RESCUE: The Quecreek mine rescue, which happened in 2002, within the first 24 hours, we had contact that the miners were still alive. And that`s very important to know that you`re hearing something from beneath the ground from them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): This Richmond neighborhood is shaken at the thought of what happened inside this Woodland Heights home. An entire family brutally murdered. Bryan Harvey, his wife, Kathryn, and their two daughters, 9-year-old Stella and 4-year-old Ruby, all were bound with their throats cut. In front of her Carytown store, customers honor Kathryn Harvey and her family by leaving piles of flowers and candles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It just doesn`t make sense, not that any violent crime ever does. But a whole family? A seemingly middle-class family, nice neighborhood. The mom, the dad, the two little girls, 9 and 4, all murdered systematically, all left there in the basement bound with duct tape? Why?

Straight out to "Richmond Times-Dispatch" reporter, Jim Nolan. Jim, help us.

JIM NOLAN, "RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH": Well, Nancy, it`s a mystery right now. Police are busy trying to track down everyone who may have known the family, family members, business associates, friends, acquaintances, just about anyone, musician friends of Bryan Harvey. It`s really a mystery. It`s almost too wide now for them to speculate on exactly who or whom they thought might have done it.

GRACE: Jim, take me to the beginning. Tell me how this happened. And I understand that the family, it was New Year`s Day, and the -- or was it New Year`s Eve?

NOLAN: Well, actually, the murders were New Year`s Day, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

NOLAN: It actually starts out as a 2:00 p.m. chili party, a New Year`s Day party that the Harveys were hosting. Around 1:40 p.m....

GRACE: Was it a kid party or a grownup party?

NOLAN: No, it was a grownup party. There were going to be families there. The Harveys have a wide circle of friends. Bryan`s a well-known musician, and Kathryn was a well-liked businesswoman in a popular shopping district of the city.

They were going to have a chili New Year`s Day cookout. And what happened is, at 20 minutes before 2:00, a friend shows up, a very good friend and former bandmate of Bryan, and he notices there`s doors open. He walks in. He is engulfed immediately in smoke and a foul-smelling air and looks, seeing nothing on the stove, assumes that the family has gotten out of the house, runs out, yells for a neighbor to call 911.

When the fire department arrives, they go into the house and go right to the source of where the smoke is coming from, which is the basement. They actually end up taking two of the bodies out of the basement before they realize, in fact, that they don`t have fire deaths but four homicides.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNNY HOTT, HARVEY FAMILY FRIEND: I saw the smoke in there, and I just thought that they`d left something on the oven and they went out for around-the-block walk. And so, you know, the door was opened, as it usually is, you know, it wasn`t locked.

There was a lot of smoke in there, but the smoke was really coming from the basement. That`s what I found out, when I didn`t see -- there wasn`t any food, either, that I could see. And they were having a party.

KELLY WILKS, KATHRYN HARVEY`S CO-WORKER: They`re a big part of this community, with Bryan and his music. And I`ve been receiving phone calls all morning, as far as Roanoke people asking me, "Please, tell me this isn`t true." Just real tearful phone calls from all over today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another thing, Jim Nolan -- Jim is with the "Richmond Times- Dispatch" -- isn`t it true that one of the little girls had a sleepover the night before and that mom brought her home sometime between 10:00 and 11:00 a.m.

And when the victim mother came to the door, she came up from downstairs, from the basement area, and she looked very pale and very shaken up, very anxious, and, in fact, the friend says, "Is anything wrong?"

NOLAN: Yes, that`s exactly what happened, Nancy. In fact, it`s one of the most tragic aspects of this horrific crime, which is that the girl, Stella, who`s 9 years old, a third-grader, was returning home from a New Year`s Eve sleepover at a friend`s house from elementary school. And when the mother brought them there, Stella immediately ran, we`re told, down to the basement, which is where the family normally hung out and socialized. As the mother and daughter were waiting...

GRACE: Oh, wait. So you mean the basement was like the den?

NOLAN: It was like a den.

GRACE: OK.

NOLAN: We`re told it was a partially finished basement, and it was a very natural thing for her to go running, saying, "I`m home, I`m home," and run down there to the basement. Before the rest of the mother and daughter actually got to that point, they were met in the house by Mrs. Harvey, who appeared, as you said, ashen and nervous, somewhat agitated.

And she told the woman who asked her that she felt maybe like she was getting sick or something. And not wanting to intrude, the mother and the daughter, her daughter left.

GRACE: Got you.

NOLAN: And they were probably the last people to see both of them alive.

GRACE: To Betsy Ross, criminal profiler, looking at the facts of this, what stands out, Betsy?

BETSY ROSS, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Nancy, first, I`m not a criminal profiler. I`m a criminal investigator. But thank you.

What stands out? The family -- someone waited for this child to come home. It almost seems like the individual that was in the basement with the other family members waited for the last member to come home, who was 9 years old.

GRACE: To Rich Lohr, how would you approach the case, Rich?

LOHR: Well, the case, result of the case, depends upon good investigative work. They have seasoned...

GRACE: (OFF-MIKE) you approach the case?

LOHR: Beg your pardon?

GRACE: How would you approach the case?

LOHR: The same way you do any homicide scene. The first thing is to properly identify and document all of the evidence at the scene. You want to review the autopsy reports.

If it`s a long-term investigation, if the police do not have a suspect identified and the case drags on for several days, a victimology is very important. You`ve got to delve into this family`s life, what was going on.

GRACE: Right. Right.

To Tammy Smith, a friend of Bryan Harvey, the deceased, what can you tell us about the family? Are there extended family members? Was this the entire family? Is there anyone you can think of that would have a personal interest in this family?

TAMMY SMITH, FRIEND OF VICTIM BRYAN HARVEY: That`s what`s so confusing. This family is so incredibly well-liked in and around the Richmond area on so many different levels, in the community, as far as the business community, with the Fox School (ph) mothers, she was well-liked there. Bryan has friends that date back 20, 25 years in the music scene that just absolutely think he was wonderful.

GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The music scene. Tammy, I understood that he worked for the school district and that he was, you know, like a musician at night.

SMITH: I think, in the last year, the last few years, yes, because he settled down and had responsibilities. He did take on the job of working with the Henrico County -- excuse me, the school department. But, at heart, Bryan was a musician. And he had achieved a good bit of fame in the late-`80s, early-`90s with the band, House of Freaks. They had videos on MTV. They had albums and record deals. And he did achieve quite a bit of notoriety.

GRACE: Now, let me ask you something, Tammy. It`s my understanding that the wife was somehow related to a star on "Desperate Housewives"?

SMITH: Yes. It`s her half-brother. He played Rex.

GRACE: Oh, Rex is dead.

SMITH: Yes. Rex, unfortunately, passed away. And that was her half- brother.

GRACE: Wow.

SMITH: So, I mean, there`s a little bit of a celebrity extension there.

GRACE: OK. To Penny Douglass Furr, veteran defense attorney, Penny, remember when the entire Groene family was wiped out? Elizabeth, do you have video of that? And the theory was proffered that there was a sex predator that wanted the children because they were missing from the home, and we all pooh-poohed it because it was so ludicrous.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. The difference there is that two of the children had disappeared. Here they killed the whole family, which makes me believe it`s some type of personal issue, because they used a knife and they didn`t steal anything. So it appears to me that somebody is very angry about something. They might have made some enemies along the way. But something appears to be personal.

GRACE: Well, you know what? You`re right about that, enemies, for sure.

Dr. Paul Schienberg, forensic psychologist, this is more than just your common-day enemy. We all make enemies in our lines of business, in our personal lives, whether we intend to or not. But these children, ages 4 and 9, had their throats slashed. There is no pretty way to put it, Dr. Schienberg. Read it for me.

PAUL SCHIENBERG, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, the way I read it is that somebody wanted to get involved in terrorizing each of the family members, including murdering them. So when you slash people like that in front of other people, you`re really wanting to make the other people psychologically tortured, as well as dead.

GRACE: Well, that`s an interesting point, Doctor.

But to Jim Nolan, this is very integral to the investigation, Jim. Do we know if the family, if they were all killed there in the basement, or were they killed in their homes and then disposed of in the basement? What do we know? Were they bound with duct tape?

NOLAN: We know that they were taped. I`m not sure that we know the exact kind of tape. There is a work area down also in that basement, so perhaps the way they were killed had something to do with what was found and readily available in the basement, as we believe the fire to have been set, basically, by things available.

GRACE: You know, to...

NOLAN: Our understanding is that all four at one point were alive in the basement and that all four were, in fact, killed in the basement.

GRACE: To defense attorney Hillah Katz out of the Florida jurisdiction, Hillah, this is starting to sound more and more like a crime of convenience. Apparently, the killer did not take a weapon into the home. They were all killed there in the basement, having something to do with ongoing construction in the basement. What do you think?

HILLAH KATZ, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s obvious that somebody who wanted these four people dead knew who they were. They knew that there was a time before 2:00 in the afternoon that the house would not be full of guests yet. They also knew that this family would be home at that time, and they saw the perfect opportunity. And then they tried to cover it up by lighting the house on fire and eliminating any trace of what they were able to leave behind at the time that they murdered these people.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The house, located on West 31st Street in Woodland Heights, is now a crime scene. Police forensics teams combing the house for clues, looking for anything that might lead them to the killer of the Harvey family. A 10-year friend of Kathryn, Kelly Wilks, says the Harveys will be sorely missed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Two little girls, ages 4 and 9, now murder victims, along with their parents in the family basement, leaving no family member alive. Why? In this seemingly ordinary, I would say upscale neighborhood, no hint of violence in the home in the past.

Straight out to Vito Colucci, private investigator with Colucci Investigations, what evidence do you believe this killer may have left behind? You and I have both seen plenty of murder scenes.

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE DETECTIVE: Yes, there`s going to be -- I feel there`s going to be a lot of evidence. The way they were killed, Nancy, there`s going to be a lot of blood, bloody footprints.

GRACE: Yes, I can`t believe the father didn`t at least put up a fight.

COLUCCI: I believe there was more than one person involved in this. That`s just my opinion in reading this. I believe there had to be two people.

GRACE: But why, Vito, in Groene, we thought the same thing, when Dylan and Shasta Groene`s entire family was wiped out, remember, the mother, the father, the mother, the boyfriend, and the 13-year-old son all bludgeoned to death? One person.

COLUCCI: I thought it was more, too, on that one myself, Nancy. But I just feel on this one it is, just because the way they were bound, their throats slashed. This is a serious case of revenge. I`m telling you: There`s somebody that plotted this. They wanted these people dead.

GRACE: But wait, why do you say "plotted"? Because if it was so well-plotted, they didn`t come in with their own weapon. They used what was handy to subdue everyone.

COLUCCI: Plotted in their mind that they wanted revenge on these people. The mother goes to the door a nervous wreck, OK?

GRACE: Yes, yes.

COLUCCI: The individual or individuals, I feel, were already in the family room waiting, not necessarily waiting for the young girl to come home. I don`t think they knew that. But that was an opportunity. And it`s somebody that the family knew, because I think even the 4-year-old would have been able to pinpoint who this was.

GRACE: Big question to me, Penny Douglass Furr -- you`ve seen a lot of murder cases, as well, on the defense end -- the Groene case shattered a lot of people`s opinions about the methodology of crime. If this was someone the family knew, it may not have required more than one attacker, Penny?

FURR: You`re right, if there is only one. But I agree with the investigator, that somebody was already in the family room. And the fact that they killed the young children leads me also to believe they did not want to leave any witnesses.

In Groene, they took both children which them, which also would lead to believe maybe it was somebody that was a child molester. Why did he take the two young children? In this case, they killed both children. They were either getting rid of witnesses or attempting to torture the parents by killing the children while the parents were there.

And do we know the father didn`t fight back? That was a question I wondered, too.

GRACE: You know what? We really don`t.

To Jim Nolan with the "Richmond Times-Dispatch," what more do we know tonight about the scene?

NOLAN: Well, we know that police took a tremendous amount of evidence out of it. We know that, obviously, some of it`s been compromised by the fact that there was a fire lit, presumably after the homicides, that had been burning for sometime when fire department firefighters arrived.

We are not being told whether there`s any forensic indication of a fight or defensive wounds or anything like that at this stage.

GRACE: OK. How far advanced, very quickly, Jim, was the fire?

NOLAN: I`ve heard different things. We`ve been told that it could have been burning for as long as an hour or so before it was first discovered by Mr. Hott.

GRACE: But the bodies were intact?

NOLAN: I don`t know what the status of the bodies are.

GRACE: OK.

You know, to Hillah Katz, defense attorney, Hillah, why do people -- don`t they ever watch true crime stories? It`s ridiculous. Have you ever had a case where there was a crime covered up by an arson? I have.

KATZ: Oh, me, too. I`ve had a few cases, actually, where that`s happened.

GRACE: Yes. Why do people think if they burn up the scene -- don`t they get there`s still going to be the remains of the body. If there was a weapon used, very often you can find that on the burn remains?

KATZ: Well, they do. I think what they think is that, when they start to set a fire on a scene, it will eliminate certain types of forensic evidence, which it does. You know, it becomes very difficult to have fingerprints or to have certain types of DNA, because if that fire was still burning, the fire department goes in first with water and then eliminates a lot of the things that are there.

But what`s interesting about this fire is that the neighbor comes in and it`s still only smoky, which means that maybe the fire had put itself out or it wasn`t that big of fire.

GRACE: Got you, yes.

KATZ: So, in this case, I think the police actually have a good chance of finding a lot of forensic evidence to help them in their investigation.

GRACE: Another thing -- I think you`re right, Hillah. It just dawned on me.

Jim Nolan, as we were evaluating the evidence, the bodies were intact, because, if these bodies were just charred remains, they would not know the cause of death being the slashing of the throat.

NOLAN: Well, I`m not a forensic expert, but certainly we`ve been able to determine, at least that investigators believe, that they were, in fact, cut on the throat. Whether that ends up being the ultimate determining cause of death after an autopsy, we don`t know.

But we do know that a couple of bodies were initially removed from the basement by firefighters who, at the time, as they`re trained, thought that they were dealing with potential victims who might have been unconscious and needed help.

GRACE: Very quickly, to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." FBI, law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Rosemary Lorraine Godbolt-Molder, wanted in connection with an `89 Texas murder of her 5- year-old stepson, Rayshon Omar Alexander (ph).

Godbolt-Molder, 38, 5`1", 120 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info on Rosemary Lorraine Godbolt-Molder, call the FBI, 915-832-5000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Florida teen drunk driving death, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Please stay with us tonight as we remember Private Jonathan Pfender, just 22, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 14-year-old Juanita Medina. She disappeared, Phoenix, Arizona, November 14, 2005. If you have info on Juanita Medina, please call Phoenix police, 602-262-6151, or go online to BeyondMissing.com. Please help us.

Straight back out to Jim Nolan with the "Richmond Times-Dispatch." I know the fire has been put out. I know all of the bodies have been taken out of the home. What is the speculation there on the scene as to why this happened, completely wiping out an entire family? And are there extended relatives, such as a sister or brother?

NOLAN: Well, that, of course, is the big question, Nancy. And I think, certainly, we reported today that police still want to talk to a couple of extended family members who they haven`t been able to talk to, at least as of yesterday.

And of course, it`s panicked a very comfortable and established community because nobody is getting the answer that they want exactly now, as to whether it is something random or something specific.

GRACE: To Paul Schienberg, forensic psychologist, what does the manner of death tell us? And do you believe this could have been random? I do not.

SCHIENBERG: I don`t believe it`s random. The manner of death is clearly vicious. And it tells us that this person or persons really wanted to -- had to get some enjoyment or thrill out of performing these kinds of acts.

I believe that something is going on that required them to take each person one at a time and do this. It almost reminds me of the "In Cold Blood" movie with Capote. It keeps ringing in my ears. Even though they may have known this person, that was certainly a random act. This feels like it was actually so cold-bloodedly done that it`s unnerving.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But, as always, our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us and our legal stories into your home. Happy 2006.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world. And tonight, not just from me, but happy new year from the control room. We`ll keep both eyes on America`s courtrooms in year 2006.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp. And until then, good night, friend.

END