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Nancy Grace

Did 15-Year-Old New Mother Dump Baby in Trashbin?; Andrea Yates in Court

Aired January 09, 2006 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news out of New Jersey. Did a new mother, a 15-year-old high school freshman, give birth, then throw the newborn baby away like trash -- literally? Did she dump the baby in a trashbin outside a local deli?
And tonight, live to Texas. She was found guilty for the drowning murders of three of her five children but escaped the Texas death penalty by that much. And now, after an appeals reversal, Andrea Yates in court, claiming she`s not guilty by reason of insanity. And tonight, North Carolina, a massive search under way on foot, by car, with dogs, with volunteers. It`s ongoing tonight. Where is 23-year-old Michelle Bullard?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Trained dogs lead a desperate search tonight for a 23-year-old North Carolina girl, Michelle Bullard, missing a week now after a home invasion at gunpoint, Michelle taken away from her boyfriend`s home as she sat on the sofa watching TV.

Plus, convicted child killer Andrea Yates pleads not guilty, non guilty by reason of insanity in the drowning deaths of her children. Well, it`s back to court, and guess who`s paying for it!

But first tonight, breaking news out of New Jersey, a 15-year-old girl charged with attempted murder, allegedly throwing her baby boy into a dumpster outside a local deli.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLAIRE GINSBURG GOLDSTEIN, BERGENFIELD RESIDENT: When I heard about this young lady who had this baby and threw it in a garbage can, it`s like all I wanted to do was cry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To think that the only solution is to dump the child into a garbage can is -- it`s kind of hard, especially being that it`s actually cold outside.

BRENDA JAMIESON, CO-OWNER, CROSSROADS DELI: Considering that we were here late that night, I was shocked. I was shocked. I couldn`t believe that it would happen so close to where we are. Fifteen years old, it`s very young. It`s very hard for me to say if she should be punished or not. It`s not right what she did. I don`t condone it in any way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Maybe we should ask the tiny infant baby thrown at the bottom of a trashbin!

Straight out to David Matthau with Millennium Radio out of New Jersey. David, thank you for being with us. Please bring us up to date, friend.

DAVID MATTHAU, MILLENNIUM RADIO, NEW JERSEY: Thanks, Nancy. It`s a terrible story and one that shocked everybody in New Jersey, certainly, and around the nation, as well. We learned about this situation over the weekend, when apparently, this young lady was taken by her mother to the hospital because she was bleeding, and doctors were able to determine at that time that she had, in fact, just given birth.

The story that we`ve been told is that the mother had not been made aware of the fact that her daughter was pregnant. Once the determined -- the determination was made that the young woman had just given birth, police were able to find the baby in that trashcan. And the baby is now in critical condition, fighting for his life, has been for the last couple of days.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIESON: She`s 15. She`s probably very scared. I don`t think kids have the proper education on the safe harbor law. I myself just learned about it after this had happened. It`s something that I think should be taught in schools, as well.

It`s just very sad, very sad. We`re very concerned for the mother, the child and her family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There have been so many killer moms that have made the headlines, it`s almost incomprehensible to many of us. There`s Amy Grossberg and her boyfriend, Brian Peterson. They got a sweetheart deal after bludgeoning their baby boy to death. There`s Melissa Drexler. She`s been known as the "prom mom." She gave birth in the bathroom during the prom, then had the wherewithal to go out on the dance floor -- out on the dance floor! -- and request a song by Metallica called "Unforgiven."

Let`s go to the next shot, Elizabeth (ph). There you go. That`s Heidi Anfinson. Her son, Jacob. She was convicted and sentenced to 50 years behind bars. The baby was weighted with rocks and thrown to the bottom of a lake. Go ahead, Elizabeth. There you go. Deanna Laney. She`s known as the "rock mom." She took her children outside one by one, bludgeoned them to death with rocks. Susan Smith drove her kids straight into a body of water, belted in the back in their safety belts, and then blamed an unknown black male for their murders, went on TV begging for people to help find her children. Well, they did find her children. They were dead by her hand.

Straight out to James Santulli, assistant prosecutor out of Bergen County. James, are you with me?

JAMES SANTULLI, ASST. PROSECUTOR FOR BERGEN COUNTY: I`m with you, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, James. Thank you for being with us.

SANTULLI: It`s a pleasure to be here.

GRACE: What`s your take on this? How will this 15-year-old mom be prosecuted?

SANTULLI: Well, right now, she`s charged as a juvenile delinquent under our law. She has underlying offenses of attempted murder and also endangering the welfare of a child. There are certain penalties for those charges in juvenile court. Once the investigation is completed, once all the statements have been taken, a decision will be made by our head prosecutor as to whether to waive this individual up to an adult status.

GRACE: OK. I was concerned, James, at the get-go when I heard a 15- year-old was being treated as a juvenile for attempted murder on an innocent baby. But from what I`m hearing, you say now that decision has not been made, correct?

SANTULLI: No. Under our law, there`s an exact procedure that has to be followed. Because she`s under 16 years of age, the prosecutor has to make a decision whether to attempt to waive her up. There has to be a hearing to determine probable cause, and then a defense attorney would have to show that the juvenile can probably be rehabilitated by her 18th birthday to thwart it from going to an adult status crime.

GRACE: Do you think it will be bound over to adult court?

SANTULLI: I really don`t want to predict it. It really depends upon all the facts of the case. And obviously, we`re at the initial stages of the investigation. I just want people to realize that it will be looked at very fairly, that this juvenile will be treated fairly, but that we also have a victim in this case that we have to be cognizant of. This was a five-and-a-half-pound baby boy who basically came into this world as an innocent fellow, is now hooked up to a respirator and is touch and go as...

GRACE: He`s hooked up to a respirator?

SANTULLI: That`s correct. That`s correct. And it`s touch and go as to whether he`s going to survive or not. So we do have a real victim here and that victim is this baby boy.

GRACE: To James Davy, who`s the commissioner with the Department of Human Services. I want to talk to you, sir. Help us understand the safe haven law.

JAMES DAVY, DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES: Well, in New Jersey, there has been a safe haven child protection law in place since August of 2000. And that law was passed, and it allows a mom who is desperate, who feels that she cannot take care of her children, who is thinking of doing something untoward -- abandonment, whatever the case might be -- they have the ability to bring that child to a hospital emergency room or to a local police station.

GRACE: Hold on one second. Everybody, you`re seeing all the safe haven states in red. All of these states have safe havens. And with us, James Davy, commissioner of the Department of Human Services, describing that. Go ahead, James. Sorry to interrupt.

DAVY: What happens is, if a mom feels that there`s just no way that she can take care of this baby, that what she does is bring the baby to an emergency room at a hospital or a local police station, and can bring that baby there confidentially. There will be no questions asked. If the baby...

GRACE: So bottom line, James, no prosecution.

DAVY: No prosecution. It`s confidential. As long as the baby is being brought there within 30 days of birth and there has been no apparent abuse or neglect of that child, that mom or her representative can bring that child to those two locations.

GRACE: Got you.

DAVY: There will be no questions asked whatsoever.

GRACE: Elizabeth, do I have Mr. Weichsel with me, John Weichsel? Joining us, John Weichsel, the defense attorney for this 15-year-old young lady. Mr. Weichsel, thank you for being with us. What`s your defense?

JOHN WEICHSEL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR 15-YEAR-OLD MOTHER: Thank you for having me. At this point, it`s preliminary to discuss a defense. But the girl has been extremely cooperative. She`s extremely traumatized. She is very, very young. She just turned 15. We`re going to have her evaluated by mental health professionals to see her state of mind, but she...

GRACE: Mr. Weichsel, did she have any history of mental illness? I have researched, and I have found none in all the wires I`ve read.

WEICHSEL: I don`t know, at this point. I don`t think so, but that still don`t doesn`t mean that her state of mind might have been altered at that time. She might have been extremely traumatized about the pregnancy, extremely frightened, and...

GRACE: I understand that, Mr. Weichsel. But to basically try and murder a tiny baby? The baby isn`t even 1 day old. To leave it there in that trash bin?

WEICHSEL: She -- she told the hospital personnel where the baby was. They found the baby. She did the right thing. She was very cooperative...

GRACE: Mr. Weichsel, now, hold on. You`re leaving a couple of facts out there. Telling the hospital, yes, you`re right, after her mother saw her bleeding, called the doctors, she went to the hospital. They clearly knew she had just given birth. And then police found out where the baby was. That`s the way it went down, Mr. Weichsel!

WEICHSEL: The police found out where the baby was from her.

GRACE: Yes, after police confronted her. If her mom hadn`t put a stop to the whole thing, that baby would be dead instead of now on a respirator!

WEICHSEL: That very well may be true. But you also have to look at her actions afterwards and the fact that she`s been extremely cooperative with the authorities, with the police.

GRACE: But John, she`s caught red-handed! And I know you`re giving her a big break because she`s 15, but she put an infant, a baby, a child, a newborn in a trashbin! Do you know how many families in this country would give their right arm to have a baby, to love the baby, to raise the baby as their own? And she threw him away like trash!

WEICHSEL: I understand what you`re saying, but I think we have to give someone who`s 15 years old, who`s not much more than a child herself, the benefit of the doubt.

GRACE: I want to go straight out to Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Robi, I think I know where you`re going to head on this, but how can you suddenly claim insanity, temporary insanity, when you have no history of mental illness? Does my heart go out to her? Of course it does. Of course it does. But not to the extent of an infant baby just about one hour old!

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Here`s what we know about neonaticide, which is actually the elimination or killing of a child within 24 hours of its birth. And it tends to happen within the age range of 16 to 38, in most cases, 25 and under. And in some cases, these women, either due to fear or adjustment disorder, really don`t attach to their pregnancy and they deny it. So they deny it. They don`t dress pregnant. They don`t fantasize about the child. And so when they give birth, in some cases, that`s the first time that they know that they are pregnant, and they eliminate the child out of fear of losing support...

GRACE: Are you serious?

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: You carry a baby for nine months...

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: ... you give birth...

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: ... and you`re telling me that`s the first time you know you`re pregnant?

LUDWIG: In some cases. There`s almost like a disassociation, where they don`t connect with the child.

GRACE: Robi, you have two kids, right?

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: I believe we all knew you were pregnant.

LUDWIG: Yes, I know, but I was in my 30s, and I was -- I was married. I had the support and encouragement of many people around me. I was not an unwed teenaged mother. It`s a very different ballgame, and your psyche is in a very different place.

GRACE: OK. I will go with a different psyche to Jason Oshins, veteran defense attorney. That`s not going to wash with the jury, your psyche`s in a different spot. See that dumpster, Jason? Do you see that?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I see that.

GRACE: A baby boy about 2 hours old was thrown into that. Do you see that round hole cut into it? There`s no way that baby would ever have been found if police -- good police work -- if they had not found that baby themselves.

OSHINS: Nancy, I hear what you`re saying and I hear the plight of many families looking for a child, and this certainly, you know, heightens that type of feeling. But by the same token, as Dr. Ludwig said, these are children having children. These are children denying the fact that they`ve been pregnant for nine months, not even reaching out to their family members to disclose this, and then doing something, as you said the prom mother did, by having the baby and going back in and reacting as if nothing even happened, nothing traumatic to them and nothing traumatic of interest to what`s happening to the infant.

GRACE: Jason, Jason, what are you talking about?

OSHINS: Nancy...

GRACE: I mean, wait a minute. We`re not in court yet. Please don`t try to pull the wool over my eyes. We haven`t even gotten an indictment.

OSHINS: Nancy...

GRACE: For all I know, she`s going to be treated as a juvenile. She`ll get maybe some counseling. Maybe she`ll have to write a 300-word report, "What I did was wrong," and that`s it.

OSHINS: Nancy, the courts of New Jersey, since this law and even before it have -- has been enacted -- have treated these young mothers very, very softly, in terms of the time that they have done, very softly.

GRACE: OK. Here is what the deli owner had to say. Little did he know a baby had been thrown away like trash in the bin in front of the deli.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIESON: Considering that we were here late that night, I was -- I was shocked. I was shocked. I couldn`t believe that it would happen so close to where we are.

Fifteen years old, it`s very young. It`s very hard for me to say if she should be punished or not. It`s not right what she did. I don`t condone it in any way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: You`re taking a listen to the lyrics of "Unforgiven" by Metallica. That`s what another young mom did with her child, gave birth in the bathroom, tried to kill the baby, and then went out on the dance floor and asked for that song to be sung as she partied the night away.

Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for being with us. Yet another case of the disposal of a baby, an infant, this one a newborn. Right now, that baby, as we go to air tonight, is struggling to live on a respirator. This is an exclusive shot we got today of the trashbin where this young mother allegedly threw out her baby boy. Again, that baby struggling for its life.

To defense attorney Joe Ingber. Joe, what`s your defense?

JOE INGBER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think, first of all, Nancy, the psychiatric elements in whether or not she`s going to be tried as an adult or a juvenile are the first key factors. Learn as much as you can about the case. I don`t know whether I can have a defense. You know, for the first time, Nancy, you and I have disagreed. I feel very sorry for that infant.

GRACE: I didn`t say I didn`t feel very sorry for her. I do feel sorry for her, the 15-year-old, and the infant.

INGBER: Well, I do. And I can`t have a hard time separating how I, as a grandfather and a father -- if I`ve got a 15-year-old daughter, how do I not know she`s pregnant for nine months? And where did she cut the umbilical cord? And when she comes in bleeding, why aren`t I confronting her? What`s going on.

GRACE: You know, those are great, great points, Joe.

Let`s go straight back to David Matthau with Millennium Radio, New Jersey. David, I am not shifting focus or blame to the 15-year-old`s parents. No! Not going to go there. But his points are well taken. What can you tell us?

MATTHAU: I think they`re great points, Nancy. I think the average New Jerseyan, they hear this story, they cringe. They share your sense of outrage and disbelief. And while people may feel a sense of sympathy and sadness and, you know, distress about what this young woman has done, this 15-year-old, I think a lot of people are also angry and enraged and look at their own family situation and say, Wait a minute, if my 15-year-old daughter was pregnant, I would know what was going on. I would have some sense of what was happening. And I don`t think that my own child would do this kind of thing.

So there`s obviously a disconnect here, but I think that a lot of people feel disgusted and outraged, and rightly so.

GRACE: Back to Joe Ingber, defense attorney. Joe, I do feel deep sympathy for the 15-year-old, but not at the expense of this unborn child. And you know -- I mean, this tiny child. You know, Joe, if a male had done the same act with a baby, what would happen.

INGBER: Well, I know exactly because in California, our haven law covers for either parent who brings in a child. Now, fortunately, many years ago, after it was passed in California, I had the occasion of taking a child into a station. And you know, they can take them into a church. This girl was 50 yards away from a church. You can take it into a church and have the same effect. And I feel very sorry for this very, very vulnerable infant, but I also am concerned that we not jump to conclusions. We`ve got to do what is fair to both...

GRACE: What do you mean, jump to conclusions? This woman has no history of mental illness. Having a baby didn`t fit in...

INGBER: We don`t know that.

GRACE: Well, her lawyer just told us!

INGBER: We don`t know that, Nancy.

GRACE: Having a baby didn`t fit into her plan, so she threw the baby away like trash. Joe, I`ll give you an opportunity to fight back.

Got to go to break. But very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." The man who tried to assassinate the pope, Pope John Paul II, is set to be released from prison this week.

Also in legal news tonight, congressional hearings kick off today for Samuel Alito, President Bush`s third nominee to fill Justice Sandra Day O`Connor`s seat on the U.S. Supreme Court. Alito`s views on abortion expected to dominate the hearing. According to a CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, a majority of America believes Alito should not be confirmed if these hearings reveal he would overturn a woman`s right to choice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDSTEIN: When I heard about this young lady who had this baby and threw it in the garbage can, it`s like all I wanted to do was cry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A sentiment shared by many. We are covering a story tonight where a 15-year-old girl is accused of tossing her infant into the trash.

I want to go to a veteran trial lawyer, Joe Hurley, who represented Bryan Peterson, Bryan Peterson and his girlfriend, Amy Grossberg, accused of killing their newly born baby boy. Joe Hurley, what was your defense?

JOE HURLEY, ATTORNEY FOR STUDENT WHO WITH GIRLFRIEND THREW NEWBORN IN TRASH: Well, my defense is about what everybody else`s defense is, and that is there has to be an acceptance of responsibility. There has to be information, scientific information given to the prosecutor in order to offer the appropriate resolution. And there has to be, likewise, appropriate information given to a judge so that an appropriate sentence is imposed.

GRACE: Joe, what was the sentence that Bryan Peterson and Amy Grossberg pled guilty to?

HURLEY: Well, what they pled guilty to and what the sentence was are two different things. The sentence was two-and-a-half years in prison for her and -- oh, there`s me -- two years -- I`m just looking at the screen...

(LAUGHTER)

HURLEY: Two years...

GRACE: That`s you.

HURLEY: Yes, two years for Bryan.

GRACE: So two years.

Very quickly, to John Weichsel. Everybody, that`s Joe Hurley, who represented Bryan Peterson. I strongly disagree with the sentence. Two years for the bludgeoning death of a baby boy? Hurley, veteran trial lawyer.

Back to John Weichsel, defense attorney for this 15-year-old. Have you ever considered, sir, that when a child is the victim of a violent crime, the plea deal is so much lighter? It`s as if their life doesn`t matter as much.

WEICHSEL: No. I haven`t thought of that. I think here we`re dealing with a child herself. This girl just turned 15. She`s a child herself, and we have to look at it as a standard of a juvenile, as opposed to an adult who commits this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

911: Are you there alone?

ANDREA YATES, CONVICTED OF DROWNING HER CHILDREN: Yes.

911: Andrea Yates?

YATES: Yes.

911: Your husband there with you?

YATES: No.

911: OK. Why do you need the police, ma`am?

YATES: I just need them to be here.

911: For what?

YATES: I just need them to come.

911: Are you sure you are alone?

YATES: No. My kids are here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... number 8802005, the state of Texas versus Andrea Pia Yates. We the jury find the defendant, Andrea Pia Yates, guilty of capital murder as charged in the indictment, signed by the foreperson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Andrea Yates found guilty in the murders of three of her five children. Of course, all five were murdered. Well, now she`s back in court. She`s got a brand new trial. Her plea: not guilty by reason of insanity.

Straight out to KFNC radio reporter Mike Shiloh. Mike, explain to us what`s happening.

MICHAEL SHILOH, KFNC RADIO: Well, she made an appearance in court today, as a matter of fact, in the pretrial hearing. She now is set to go to trial on March 20th. This would be, I believe, a retrial of her original plea, which, of course, she lost and was found guilty of the murders of three of her five children. This is how it stands today.

It was a routine court appearance. She looks better than she has in the past. And we have to keep this in perspective, because the world is changing, in addition to this case going on. We know a lot more about postpartum depression now than we did when the case was tried back in 2002.

And, of course, there`s the fact that everyone, I believe, agrees that she has a mental defect, to use the legal language of this. So it`s just a matter of whether or not a deal can be arranged by her attorney and the prosecutor, Mr. Owmby, or whether or not she will just go to trial and end up possibly going back to prison.

GRACE: Mike, what happened to the death penalty?

SHILOH: Well, this is not a case where the death penalty, I believe, applies, mostly because the ability to overturn a situation like this would be so easy. I would defer to Mr. Parnham on that...

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait. In the first trial, wasn`t the state seeking the death penalty, Mike?

SHILOH: Yes, they were originally, but that...

GRACE: Well, have the facts of the murder changed?

SHILOH: The facts didn`t change, no. I believe the approach changed by the prosecution.

GRACE: Yes, yes. You know, speaking of the defense attorney, another veteran trial lawyer who represented Andrea Yates from the get-go, George Parnham, is with us.

George, why was the case -- why was the jury conviction reversed?

GEORGE PARNHAM, ANDREA YATES` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the jury heard testimony from a...

GRACE: Park Dietz.

PARNHAM: ... forensic psychiatrist by the name of Park Dietz about an episode of "Law & Order" that he said he consulted on that dealt with a woman who drowned her children, pled not guilty by reason of insanity, and was acquitted, and that show aired shortly prior to June the 20th, 2001, the date that Andrea drowned her children.

GRACE: Didn`t the defense ask him that question?

PARNHAM: I did. I asked that question and...

GRACE: So, George, now, wait a minute, George. Now, look. I know I`m tangling with a veteran trial lawyer here, but you asked the guy the question.

PARNHAM: Correct. But that doesn`t...

GRACE: And then you get a reversal off it?

PARNHAM: Well, what`s interesting, if you ask the question, that doesn`t necessarily open the door for a person to not tell the truth.

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding he did.

PARNHAM: Telling the truth -- let me finish -- telling the truth doesn`t really depend on who`s asking the question. The man`s under the oath.

GRACE: I agree.

PARNHAM: And he ought to tell the truth, regardless whether I`m asking the question or the D.A. is asking it.

GRACE: I agree. But, George, didn`t he consult on that TV series?

PARNHAM: He consulted for NBC. There was never a series involving a woman -- never an episode involving a woman who ended up drowning her kids and pleading not guilty by reason of insanity on "Law & Order."

GRACE: OK. OK. You know what? You know what, George?

PARNHAM: And as a consequence, he never consulted on it.

GRACE: Point well-taken.

So I`m going to take Park Dietz, the famed doctor, off trial. And I`m going to put your client, Andrea Yates, on trial. Now, isn`t it true, George, that Andrea Yates waited until her husband was gone, took the children one by one, killed them, and then called police, knowing very well she had done something wrong? And the definition of insanity is not knowing right from wrong at the time of the incident.

PARNHAM: Well, let me break that down a little bit with you, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

PARNHAM: It is true that she waited until her husband left and waited until her mother-in-law was -- did not arrive to the house, called 911. She also went down to the homicide division, gave a confession, named the names of her kids, the dates of birth, what her husband did for a living.

We find out that she did this because she wanted to be executed. She wanted to go to death row immediately. She didn`t want a trial. She wanted the governor of the state of Texas to execute her because that and only that would slay the evil one. And the evil one was Satan, who lived within her. And she wanted to save the world, much like she wanted to save her kids.

She did all the right things, which would indicate some type of mental culpability, but for all the wrong reasons. And that`s the reality of a person who lives in a psychotic delusional state. You have different values. You have different ways of making decisions. Different things are important. And a mother suffering from postpartum psychosis, all the things of motherhood are still intact, but she perceives danger where there is no danger.

GRACE: You know what? Not to defuse blame here, but, Robi Ludwig, I once interviewed Rusty Yates, the father. And I asked him pointblank, "Why did you" -- he had plenty of money -- "why did you move your wife and all of your kids into a school bus to live?" Five kids and a wife into a school bus to live. He got mad at me and stomped off.

But, long story short, I get postpartum depression totally. But murdering five of your children?

LUDWIG: And what disturbs me about this...

GRACE: And when does depression rise to -- I mean, look at these children, Robi. When does depression rise to insanity? And why do people get treated more leniently when the victim is a baby?

LUDWIG: You know, I think what happens is that you have this odd situation where both the mother and the child are considered victimized in this case, and that mothers are very often perceived as desperate, which they often are.

And they`re considered crazy, because children are almost considered an extension of the mother. And very often, when mothers kill their children, they keep them close to the home. It`s almost like they`re not hiding anything. In Andrea Yates` case, she said she killed her children because...

GRACE: You see that baby? You see the baby right there?

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: Her little baby, the baby girl, was covered in bruises, Robi. The little baby`s body covered in bruises because, when that baby was drowned, it fought to live.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: It tried to struggle so it could live.

LUDWIG: And that`s what`s so hard to come to terms with. It takes a lot of strength and energy...

GRACE: Yes, I`m having a hard time.

LUDWIG: ... to kill five kids. At no point did she realize she was doing something wrong. She said they were not developing properly and she was a bad mother. Now, at that moment...

GRACE: No, if she didn`t know something was wrong, why did she call police and tell them she did a bad thing?

LUDWIG: Right. So that`s what makes it hard to understand.

GRACE: No, no, no, no, no. I`m asking you. You say she didn`t know she did something wrong. She called 911, "Hey, I did a bad thing."

LUDWIG: See, that`s what I`m saying. I`m not convinced that she didn`t know. But, if she didn`t know, if she was psychotic, then she would think that perhaps she was doing it for an altruistic reason. She wasn`t a good mother, so she needed to send her kids to heaven where they`d be safe. We`re not exactly hearing that. Clearly, this is not a well woman.

GRACE: You know, to Jason Oshins, defense attorney, you know, we`ve seen a lot of these cases, you and I, you as a defense, me as a prosecutor, where children are murdered, just outright murdered.

OSHINS: Right.

GRACE: And I think that jurors, and the public, and even for me, it`s easier to accept that a mother is just crazy, she`s insane or she wouldn`t have done this. Because to think she was sane would violate so much of what we hold dear. It`s almost too awful to take in.

OSHINS: Well, I think you`re right. I think we`ve identified -- at least as we`re talking here -- the fact that there are two victims. There`s the mother, who`s suffering from mental illness. And, of course, the victimized children, who are deceased. I mean, you can`t distinguish who the victims are as a defense attorney. As a defense attorney, you can`t...

GRACE: I don`t know what you`re talking about, because Andrea Yates is still alive and well and she has the top-flight attorneys. And speaking of that, to George Parnham, George, are you representing Yates this time around?

PARNHAM: Yes, I am, Nancy. And if I may follow up...

GRACE: Is there a plea deal on the table?

PARNHAM: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Is there a plea deal on the table?

PARNHAM: I`m really not going to go into any type of plea negotiations...

GRACE: I guess that means yes.

PARNHAM: Suffice it to -- well, not necessarily. Suffice it to say that I`ll do everything that I possibly can, given certain non-negotiables that I will not negotiate away...

GRACE: Why did the state take off the death penalty?

PARNHAM: ... to -- well, the jury happened to find in the last trial that Andrea Yates was not a suitable candidate for the death penalty.

GRACE: OK. So the state can`t proceed on anything greater.

PARNHAM: And so, as a consequence -- correct. But I`d like to revert back briefly...

GRACE: OK, I`ve got 20 seconds. Hit me.

PARNHAM: Children. You`re right on point. This case is about the kids. And it seems to me that the legacy of the Yates children needs to be that future generations of kids should be entitled to be raised by the one woman that they trust and love the most in this world, their mother, free from mental illness as far as possible.

GRACE: You know what, George? I just want them to have the chance to live. With us tonight, special guest, George Parnham.

To tonight`s case alert. A crack in the case of a family of four found murdered in their basement New Year`s Day. Ray Joseph Dandridge, Ricky Gray apprehended in Philadelphia, both of them, and linked to seven Virginia murders, including those of Kathryn and Bryan Harvey and their two girls, Stella and Ruby. They were just 9 and 4 years old. Investigators may link the two to similar murders in other parts of the country.

Everybody, tomorrow night joining us here, a special guest, Sharon Rocha, Laci Peterson`s mom. She`ll be here at the Headline News studio with us about Laci, about Scott Peterson, the trial and her life since Peterson was sentenced to death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAREN RIOJAS, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: We don`t have any major leads, only that we know that Michelle was abducted and that she has not been heard of since the abduction late Sunday evening, early Monday morning. I did talk to Michelle Sunday afternoon and did see her Sunday around 5:00 p.m. And her cell phone was working, because I did reach her.

We love her. We miss her. And we want her back in our arms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you help us help police find Michelle Bullard? Minding her own business, sitting on a sofa watching TV, home invasion, boom, she`s gone. Straight out to Julia Oliver, reporter with the "Fayetteville Observer."

Julia, welcome. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

JULIA OLIVER, "FAYETTEVILLE OBSERVER": Hi, thank you. Well, authorities are still searching an area about two miles away from the trailer where the abduction happened. They say they haven`t ruled anybody out, but I discovered this afternoon that the man who committed suicide in Harnett County was apparently convicted of second-degree murder in 1975. And that didn`t show up on our initial record check. But he was convicted of shooting a tavern owner in Fayetteville.

GRACE: Very quickly to Karen Riojas. This is Michelle`s mother. Welcome back, Karen. Thank you for being with us.

Everyone, the tip line, 919-718-4577. A confidential tip line to the Lee County Sheriff.

Karen, I understand there are reports Michelle and David Wilson, this guy that committed suicide when cops approached him, may have crossed paths in a convenience store earlier that evening. True or false?

RIOJAS: True, Nancy. What we have learned is, between 10:00, 10:30 p.m. on the 1st of January, Michelle and this 49-year-old plumber were spotted on a surveillance camera in a store at the same time.

GRACE: Right.

RIOJAS: Not together, but at the same time.

GRACE: And then, Karen -- that`s a good distinction to make -- and then, when police approached him later, he committed suicide rather than talk to police.

Here in the studio with me, as you may have heard at the open tonight, the search now being led by specialty dogs. Here in the set with me, I`m going to introduce you a very special guest, possibly the best guest I`ve ever had. This is Osa, a dog trained to find people like Michelle.

And with me here, Eric Martin and Laura Lopresti, Osa, their dog. To you, Eric, explain to me what a dog like Osa can do in the search for Michelle?

ERIC MARTIN, SEARCH AND RESCUE SPECIALIST WITH OSA: Well, a dog like Osa -- and there are many dogs out there that are trained by dog handlers - - can basically provide a sensor, which can pick up dead skin cells that have fallen off of all of us. And it`s very, very vital. They can cover a large area in short a period of time.

GRACE: It`s that different from a cadaver dog?

MARTIN: Yes. And what we have done is we`ve actually started to evolve with being politically correct and sensitive to the family to actually call them a human remains detection dog. It`s significantly different. A lot of times, the human remains detection dog will actually start to pick up the scent of the body decomposing. So a cadaver dog may not really be useful if the person is still alive and not buried in a shallow grave.

GRACE: Laura, how is a dog like Osa trained?

LAURA LOPRESTI, SEARCH AND RESCUE SPECIALIST WITH OSA: Basically, you start them finding their owner, something that they`re very comfortable with.

GRACE: Do you give her a treat reward or a ball reward?

LOPRESTI: She likes the ball. That`s her favorite. So she`ll work all...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What we`re talking about is a game. If the dog hits successfully, you play a game with it. You throw it the ball. And I remember the first time I brought a drug dog on in front of a jury. I thought I would get to give it a treat. I threw it a ball. And that was the best witness I ever put on the stand, bar none.

So back to you, Eric. How do you take a dog like Osa into this situation to try to find Michelle?

MARTIN: Well, it`s a much bigger picture than just using one single resource. Osa is a canine. There are night-vision goggles. There are helicopters. There are human searchers.

You need to make sure that -- and North Carolina has one of the -- along with Virginia, has some of the best-trained search teams out in the country. You need to focus on search management. And they need to work alongside of the investigators on the law enforcement side.

They need to maintain a crime scene, securing the evidence as they find it. But more importantly, they need to really establish the scenario analysis. There are a number of different probabilities they`re going on.

But, like we always say, without having proper search managers to determine where they`re going to send the dog and what segment of the search with the highest probability, well, that`s like going to a football game without a coach or a quarterback. You know, you`re not going to play if you don`t know where you should send that single resource.

GRACE: Karen Riojas is with us, Michelle Bullard`s mother. What can you tell us about the search tonight, Karen?

RIOJAS: Well, Nancy, they have been working around the clock and the two counties as to where -- this was very close to two county lines.

GRACE: Right. What are they doing tonight to try to find Michelle?

RIOJAS: Well, they have worked around the clock with these dogs, with the scents, to find a common place as to where maybe this crime occurred.

GRACE: Everyone, with us, Karen Riojas, Michelle`s mother, now largely relying on the instincts and the training of search dogs to find her girl.

Very quickly, to tonight`s "All-Points Bulletin." Law enforcement across the country looking for Stanley Blair Hill in connection with the Tennessee murder of 32-year-old Vickie Hill. Stanley Blair is six feet, 175 pounds, brown hair, hazel eyes.

If you have info, call the TBI, TBI-FIND. Local news next for some of you but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage Court TV of the Alito hearings.

Stay with us as we remember Army Private Robbie Mariano, 21, an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: ... very much to help in our way solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at 12-year-old Amber Harris, Omaha, Nebraska, since November 29, 2005. If you have info on Amber, please call Omaha police, 402-444-5600, or go online to BeyondMissing.com.

Here in the studio with me, one of the best guests I`ve ever had. No offense, people.

To Eric, how long does it take to train a dog like Osa?

MARTIN: Approximately two years.

GRACE: And to you, Laura, does Osa live at home with you?

LOPRESTI: Yes, she does.

GRACE: Like a baby?

LOPRESTI: Yes.

GRACE: To Karen Riojas, Michelle`s mother, Michelle Bullard. Everyone, there is a $10,000 reward for information leading to finding Michelle. Phone number, 919-718-4577.

Karen, what do you believe has happened to Michelle?

RIOJAS: Nancy, if I knew, I would go to her now and I would get her.

GRACE: What you said last week about her leaving the house without her shoes on stuck in my mind.

RIOJAS: She does not have shoes on her feet. And it sticks in my mind.

GRACE: Is the boyfriend helping?

RIOJAS: I have not spoke very much to him, Nancy. My life has been turned completely upside-down. I want to find my daughter. I don`t care who, when and why. I just want my daughter back. That is our goal.

And in solving this, you know, I went through a million different scenarios as to what could have happened to Michelle. But I do know Michelle is a fighter. And she is a survivor. And I do know Michelle is smart. And if she can get out of this situation, she will, Nancy. And...

GRACE: Karen, Karen...

RIOJAS: Yes?

GRACE: ... we`re not letting go of this.

RIOJAS: No, I`m not.

GRACE: Everyone, please take a look at Michelle Bullard. Please help Karen bring her daughter home.

RIOJAS: Somebody knows something, Nancy.

GRACE: They certainly do. Everybody, $10,000 reward. Karen, thank you.

But thank you to all of our guests tonight, especially to our special guest here on the set, Osa. Our biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting us into your homes.

Tomorrow night, a special guest, Sharon Rocha, Laci Peterson`s mom, here in the studio, talking about Laci, Scott Peterson, the trial, her life, her book.

(DOG BARKS)

Oops. Coming up, headlines from all around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp. Until then, good night, friend.

END