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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Steps Up Campaign to Sell Iraq War Strategy; Alito Hearings Continue
Aired January 10, 2006 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody.
We'll continue to follow the Alito confirmation hearings here.
Also tonight, President Bush steps up his campaign to sell his strategy for the war in Iraq while Iran and other potential enemies of this country escalate their challenge to U.S. strategic preeminence.
We'll have that special report.
And then, Mexico and Central America form an alliance to fight U.S. border and immigration policy. A blatant attempt to keep open a multibillion-dollar pipeline of money.
We'll have the story.
And tonight Americans might not be as concerned about secret wiretaps in this country as some members of Congress and civil liberties groups would like you to believe. We'll have the results of a new survey.
And first it was the Japanese, then the South Koreans. Now communist China is launching an assault on our automobile industry.
That story is ahead.
And the confirmation hearings of Supreme Court nominee Judge Samuel Alito. He's facing tough questions on abortion and presidential power on Capitol Hill, among other key issues.
We'll have complete coverage of day two of Judge Alito's confirmation hearings.
We begin tonight with what new polls say is the most important issue right now in the minds of most Americans: the war in Iraq. President Bush, facing rising public anxiety about his conduct of this war, today declared there will be more progress toward victory in Iraq. But the president predicted more difficult days ahead. The president's comments come after one of the deadliest periods for Americans in Iraq in months and three weeks before his State of the Union speech.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from the White House --- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're really considering the level of bloodshed in January, this kidnapped American journalist over the weekend in Baghdad, and also what some countries see as an aggressive move by Iraq's neighbor, Iran. President Bush is coming under increasing pressure to promote the war on terror.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our goal in Iraq is victory.
MALVEAUX (voice over): President Bush before the Veterans of Foreign Wars, trying to prepare the American people for what's to come.
BUSH: We will see more tough fighting. And we will see more sacrifice in 2006.
MALVEAUX: With an increase in violence, political uncertainty as well.
BUSH: And in the weeks ahead, Americans will likely see a good deal of political turmoil in Iraq as different factions and leaders compete for position and jockey for power.
MALVEAUX: The White House is now drawing on numerous approaches to try to win American support for the U.S. mission in Iraq by setting low expectations.
BUSH: So we shouldn't be surprised if Iraqis make some mistakes and face setbacks.
MALVEAUX: Admitting mistakes.
BUSH: The training of the Iraqi police is an enormous task and, frankly, it hasn't always gone very smoothly.
MALVEAUX: Offering more detail...
BUSH: And we can decrease our combat forces in Iraq from 17 to 15 brigades by the spring of 2006.
MALVEAUX: ... and even citing polls.
BUSH: Today, seven in 10 Iraqis say their lives are going well.
MALVEAUX: The White House's goal for this year, to lessen America's burden. The president urged not only the Iraqis to step up, but the international community as well, which has pledged more than $13 billion in Iraqi assistance.
BUSH: Yet, many nations have been slow to make good on their commitments.
MALVEAUX: And with his eye on the congressional midterm elections, Mr. Bush also tried to set the terms of the Iraq debate, warning his critics voters would make them pay for harsh remarks. BUSH: They know the difference between honest critics who question the way the war is being prosecuted and partisan critics who claim that we acted in Iraq because of oil or because of Israel or because we misled the American people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And President Bush will continue to see how that plays with American voters, of course, when he travels tomorrow, promoting the war on terror in a speech in Louisville, Kentucky -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you.
Suzanne Malveaux from the White House.
As the president today focused on Iraq and the war on terror, the threat to U.S. national interests from other countries seemingly rises every day. The latest threat to this country, Iran's decision to resume its nuclear research program, today removing United Nations seals from its nuclear facilities.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): While the president was focused on the threat in Iraq, there is a new triple threat that was never mentioned: Iran, with a militant new leader, defying the world to develop a nuclear program.
North Korea stalling for time while the country builds its nuclear arsenal. China aggressively building up its military, making threats against Taiwan.
Today Iran took the seals off its nuclear facilities and restarted its programs, dismissing the concerns of the world and the U.N. IAEA nuclear watchdog agency. Its new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, this year has threatened Israel, reeled against the United States at the United Nations and is looking to destabilize Iraq.
PETER BROOKES, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Iran is also up to its neck in the insurgency in Iraq. There have been cases of Iranian weapons being moved into Iraq, the Iranians are bankrolling Shia militias. So there's a whole host of things that Iran has been involved in that go against American interests.
PILGRIM: This year, China also has been blocking U.S. interests in a variety of ways, building up its own military with double-digit budget increases, passing laws that authorize the use of force against Taiwan, and holding joint military exercises with Russia.
GORDON CHANG, "NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN": President Bush is correct when he says that we should prevail in Iraq. But it's more important that we disarm North Korea, that we prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon. And perhaps most importantly, we have to call China to account for proliferation.
North Korea has the bomb because of China. If Iran develops the bomb, it will be because of Chinese technology. So therefore, China poses a grave threat to world order.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, China, despite hosting North Korean talks, behind the scenes is also supporting North Korea's despotic leader, Kim Jong- il. China today refusing to confirm reports the North Korean leader was traveling in China, possibly to meet with Chinese leaders or possibly on route to Russia -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you.
Kitty Pilgrim.
Turning now to Capitol Hill and day two of Judge Samuel Alito's confirmation hearings, Judge Alito faced a barrage of questions today on two major issues: abortion and presidential power. The judge responded with carefully-measured answers that appeared to steer clear of any potential controversy.
Ed Henry has the report from Capitol Hill -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, in fact, Judge Alito is being grilled right at this very moment in the hearing room behind me by Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer on one of those two hot- button issues, abortion. And everyone was expecting heading into day two that there would be a lot of fireworks like this, especially since Democrats signaled they were heading into the attack mode yesterday in their opening statements.
But so far today, it's been relatively uneventful, in fact. We haven't really seen Democrats attacking that harshly, and we haven't seen Judge Alito make any major mistakes.
The fact that it's uneventful is good news for him. He certainly wants to steer clear of as much controversy as possible.
There had been, in fact, one Alito adviser telling me he believes Alito is doing great at this point, even though there had been a lot of concern among some conservatives, conservatives heading into these hearings that maybe Judge Alito is not as polished as Chief Justice John Roberts, maybe he would crack under pressure.
Instead, what we have seen is this sort of very blunt and straightforward forward, almost monotonous and boring approach, a professorial approach. It seems to be working a bit. The Democrats do not really seem to be scoring very many points.
Take a look at how Judge Alito handled some very tough, vigorous questions on the issue of abortion from the Republican chairman, Arlen Specter, who supports abortion rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Let me come now to the statement you made in 1985 that the Constitution does not provide a basis for a woman's right to an abortion.
Do you agree with that statement today, Judge Alito?
JUDGE SAMUEL ALITO, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: Well, that was a correct statement of what I thought in 1985 from my vantage point in 1985, and that was as a line attorney in the Department of Justice in the Reagan administration. Today, if the issue were to come before me, if I am fortunate enough to be confirmed and the issue were to come before me, the first question would be the question that we've been discussing, and that's the issue of stare decisis. And if the analysis were to get beyond that point, then I would have to -- I would approach the question with an open mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Now, you can hear Judge Alito really picking up on the theme that he first laid out in his opening statement yesterday afternoon that he would not take an agenda to the court as a Supreme Court justice. Echoing some similar themes really when he was pressed on the issue of executive power by Specter, and also various Democrats, basically saying that he believes the Bill of Rights of course applies, especially at a time of war, now more than ever, but really not going much further than that.
And I can tell you, the Republican senator, John Cornyn, said today that he believes as he looks across the (INAUDIBLE) at the body language from Democrats, the tone of their questioning, he really thinks, in his words, there's an air of inevitability that, in fact, Judge Alito will be confirmed.
Of course we're -- still have a few more days of hearings. A vote in the committee expected next Tuesday. Anything can happen between now and then, but at this point, the bottom line is it really looks like Judge Alito for now, smooth sailing -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry. Thank you very much.
Much more on the Alito confirmation hearings ahead here. Up next, we'll take a closer look at how Judge Alito did on the various issues.
Also, why Americans are not as concerned about secret government wiretaps as many members of Congress and civil liberty groups and many columnists have suggested.
Then, Ariel Sharon showing new signs of recovery tonight after his massive stroke. We'll have the latest for you.
And Mexico and Central America, those countries challenging U.S. border and immigration policy in a new threat to U.S. sovereignty. We'll have the special report coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: One of the main issues in today's confirmation hearings for Judge Alito, the extent of executive powers. Many members of Congress are outraged that President Bush authorized secret wiretaps on some Americans in the war on terror, but a new poll says many Americans simply do not share their concerns.
Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: ... the exercise of governmental powers...
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: The issue of presidential power versus civil liberties is a big one at the Alito confirmation hearings.
KENNEDY: He has supported a level of overreaching presidential power that, frankly, most Americans find disturbing and even frightening.
SCHNEIDER: Do they? The view that the Bush administration has gone too far in restricting people's civil liberties in order to fight terrorism has increased from 11 percent in 2002 to 21 percent in 2003 to 38 percent now. But 59 percent still say they have no problems with the restrictions.
What about the policy that's gotten a lot of attention recently, warrantless wiretaps?
ALITO: The government would have to come forward with its theory as to why the actions that were taken were lawful.
SCHNEIDER: Is the American public outraged by warrantless wiretaps of conversations between American citizens and suspected terrorists in other countries? They're split.
Fifty percent say the Bush administration was right to wiretap such conversations. Forty-six percent say it was wrong.
What's behind the split? Partisanship.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: On this issue, Lou, like many others in today's political environment, partisanship overrides everything -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, partisanship, certainly. But the fact is that that demonstrates a clear lack of concern on millions -- on the part of millions of Americans, extrapolating from this survey, on the issue of wiretaps.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. I think there are several reasons.
One is the partisan reflex, when it's identified as a Bush administration policy. Another is, of course, the justification is to fight terrorism. And Americans will do just about anything to fight terrorism, including sacrificing their civil liberties.
But probably equally important, a lot of Americans aren't aware of an outrage that they're immediately familiar with. They don't tell stories about someone whose rights have been violated or someone they have heard of or read about in the newspaper, except, of course, for foreign operatives. They don't know much about people's whose rights have been violated, so there's not a lot of outrage or objection.
DOBBS: Also concerning in its own dimension. Thank you very much. Bill Schneider.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Joining me now for more on the Alito confirmation hearings, our CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, our chief national correspondent, John King.
Jeffrey, let's start with you.
In your judgment, how's Judge Alito doing? I think part of that question might be, how are those senators doing?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Judge Alito's doing a lot better than the senators are, at least the Democrats. He is -- he's basically set down a marker in the very beginning of his testimony with Senator Hatch -- Senator Specter, the chairman of the committee.
He said, look, those provocative statements I made in 1985, that was then. Look at my last 15 years. I have an open mind. I've been a reasonable judge. That's the kind of Supreme Court justice I'll be.
And that's basically where things have stood all day long. And the Democrats who've tried to portray him as the lawyer he was in 1985 don't seem to have made much progress.
DOBBS: John King, I was also taken with the dialogue between Judge Alito and Senator Feingold on the Vanguard recusal or lack of recusal. What did you make of that? That seemed like, at least to me, that it didn't go anywhere after a great deal of pomp and circumstance leading up to the issue.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It hasn't gone anywhere yet in terms of any new admission by the judge. Democrats are very frustrated about this, Lou. And look for the Democrats and the interest groups on their side of this debate to try to continue this argument.
On the Vanguard issue, the judge had promised the Judiciary Committee to recuse himself from cases. Then he heard some cases involving Vanguard, the investment firm. And he says he can't recall just how it came to be that Vanguard was not on the list that the court clerk's office had of cases he should not hear.
The same issue came up -- he said he could not recall just why it was that he joined an alumni group at Princeton University, concerned alumni for Princeton. And the Democrats are saying this is too cute, too clever for them.
This is the judge who can recall the intricate details of so many cases, can recall the intricate details of all of those memos he voted -- eroded (ph), excuse me, back in the Reagan days, and yet on these two issues that they think, the Democrats think are critical to these hearings, he says I can't recall. Look for the Democrats to hammer him more on that.
DOBBS: And I was struck as well, Jeffrey, with the dialogue between Senator Graham and Judge Alito on the issue of precedent going back to World War II and the cases in terms of detention of enemy combatants. For all the world, it looked like Senator Graham was trying to help the judge. The judge didn't want his help, it appeared.
TOOBIN: He didn't, but that was very friendly questioning.
There was also a very interesting exchange about precedent with Senator Dianne Feinstein, who did the most detailed questioning about abortion. And he -- Judge Alito listed a number of circumstances when precedence might be overturned, when technology has changed, when an original law didn't work out, and a couple of other areas. And those areas actually did not apply to Roe v. Wade.
DOBBS: Right.
TOOBIN: So those who think that Judge Alito is very anxious to overturn Roe v. Wade, I think they might have been a little surprised and disappointed. And perhaps supporters of abortion rights a little heartened by that response.
DOBBS: And to the degree that one finds this to be something more than political theater, I had to be -- I was struck by Judge Alito's statement when asked about whether he was opposed to minorities and women attending colleges. Judge Alito had this to say, if you gentlemen will listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALITO: Senator, I had never attended a non-coeducational school until I went to Princeton. And after I was there a short time, I realized the benefits of attending a coeducational school.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TOOBIN: Lou, that was about as racy as it got. You know, I think John Roberts is Chris Rock compared to this guy. I mean, this was pretty dry stuff today, I think.
DOBBS: It's pretty dry. And John King, is this really -- you know, for all of the world, I can almost see some of these senators puffing up with great importance and some lust for the eye of the camera. And it just seems like a highly inefficient use of time. KING: Well, many of the judge's supporters and many other veterans of this process saying it is supposed to be a hearing. Why are the senators doing all the talking and not listening more to the nominee?
The Democrat are looking, Lou, either for some way to trip him up on the way to nomination or for some -- perhaps a reason to justify a filibuster. They don't have either one of those right now.
But this is about something. Jeff was just talking about the exchange with Senator Feinstein.
Judge Alito would replace Sandra Day O'Connor on the high court. She is the judge who has set the standard on how you can restrict abortion. Never mind Roe v. Wade for a minute -- how can you restrict abortion.
And Senator Feinstein was trying to get the judge to explain his views on the issue because many believe he would let the Congress and state legislatures go a lot further in restricting abortion than Justice O'Connor will.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, we thank you. John King. Jeffrey Toobin.
Still ahead, our nation's technological surrender to communist China. Why it is now becoming a rising national security threat to this country.
Plus, Costa Mesa, California, it wins key support in its historic fight against illegal immigration. Our special report is coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, a new warning about a once thriving American industry that has increasingly lost competitive advantage to communist China. A new report finds the decline of U.S.-made printed circuit boards a rising threat to U.S. national security.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Printed circuit boards are the interconnect technology between microchips and the software that drives those chips. They're fundamental to military navigation, missiles and communications. But the U.S.-printed circuit board industry has been in steady decline. Since the mid 1980s, U.S. production has dropped from 42 percent of the world's output to less than 10 percent projected this year.
JOHN KANIA, IPC ASSN. CONNECTING ELEC. IND.: I would describe what's happened to the U.S.-printed circuit board industry as devastating. I think any time you lose nearly 50 percent of your manufacturing capacity, you've suffered a devastating loss. SYLVESTER: Much of the work has shipped to Asia, particularly China. A year-long study commissioned by the National Research Council finds a potential crisis.
The United states is becoming increasingly reliant on questionable foreign sources for printed circuit boards. There's a risk of future shortages, and even more troubling, of potential sabotage.
DAVID BERTEAU, NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL: What we're only now beginning to suspect is that someone could embed in the chip a capability to disrupt, to plant a Trojan horse, as you say, or even just to disable it at an unspecified or specified point in time.
SYLVESTER: There's also a worry that the United States is losing its cutting-edge innovation for good. As the companies pack up for destinations like China, they take with them a lot of the know-how.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While their workforce is being trained and they're being invested in, in state-of-the-art electronic technology, the U.S. is losing that. If there's no industry here to invest in, the investments in the technology and training aren't there either.
SYLVESTER (on camera): The committee recommends collecting more data on these third and fourth-tier suppliers to find out where the work is being farmed out and just how reliant is the United States. It also recommends DOD implement new policies to ensure the industry does not disappear altogether. As the chairman of the committee said, it's easier to steer a moving car than one that's sitting sill.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Someone who'd identified himself or herself only as "Anonymous" wrote in to say, "Of course big business leaders are saying that Americans aren't good workers. They've never met an American worker. Any jobs they haven't already exported to another country are filled by illegal aliens."
Romain in Maryland wrote in about Microsoft blocking a blog in China for discussing democracy: "Lou, Microsoft is a multinational corporation. The purpose of such entities is to maximize their shareholders' wealth, not to promote American ideals. To do business around the world, they must adhere to the laws in effect in those countries."
Ah, you just haven't quite convinced me.
And Dave, in Indiana, "Lou, all businesses are giving away American values for the mighty dollar. Soon I will have to pay with everything with Yen. I think this country is due for a second revolution, but none of us can afford to buy ammunition to fight it."
And Tracy in North Carolina, "How do you justify to the American people the shoving of democracy down the throats of the Iraqi population and at the same time kowtow to the removal of democracy- related information from the Internet in China?"
We'll have many more of your thoughts to share with you coming up here later in the broadcast.
Up next, a brand new red car coming soon to a car dealer near you. Can Detroit compete with yet another foreign exporter?
And then, Central American diplomats passing the buck again in the illegal alien crisis and blaming the United States. Our special report ahead.
And Colorado's controversial new proposal to deny illegal aliens costly state services. We'll have a debate.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up, the Colorado crackdown, a new move to set off costly state services to illegal aliens. We'll have a debate on the issue.
But first, a look at this hour's top stories.
Doctors say Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will now likely survive the massive stroke he suffered last week. Sharon is regaining new movement in his hands. Doctors still have no idea about the extent of the brain damage the prime minister suffered.
At least two dozen people are now infected with the bird flu in Turkey. These cases are not thought to be life-threatening, however. Officials say the outbreak can be brought under control soon. Three people have died from the bird flu in Turkey during this outbreak.
And President Bush today renewed legislation in the fight against human trafficking rings. This bill provides more than $300 million to help prosecute human smugglers working mostly in the teenage sex trade.
In Mexico City this week, the leading diplomatic minds of Mexico and Central America met and were at it again. These diplomats and government officials attack the United States for proposed border security crackdown and they stepped up their efforts to influence the U.S. immigration debate.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Mexico and Central America want guest worker programs for their citizens. And they want illegal aliens already in the United States to be, as they put it, regularized. MARK KRIKORIAN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: They don't want the gravy train to be interrupted by American immigration law enforcement.
ROMANS: And a gravy train it is. Remittances wired from workers in the United State are Mexico's largest source of revenue behind oil. According to the World Bank, in Mexico more than half the population is considered poor and one in five lives in extreme poverty.
In a statement released by the Mexican Ministry of Finance, the group declared, "Migrants should not be treated as delinquents, regardless of their immigration status."
And, they took a swipe a legislation to enforce American immigration laws. "Measures that only tighten immigration policies are not a comprehensive solution to the challenges created by the migratory phenomenon."
No mention of the causes of this migratory phenomenon as the diplomats called it, poverty, mismanagement, corruption.
REP. ED ROYCE (R), CALIFORNIA: Right now, many of these governments rely, to a certain degree, on earnings from outside the country, in order to sort of overcompensate for the lack of reforms internally that would give people opportunity.
ROMANS: Congressman Royce argues Mexico has strict enforcement of workers coming across its southern border and says the United States already has the most liberal immigration policy in the world. In this working group with Mexico are some of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, sending their workers away, depending on foreign cash rather than growing from within.
Statistics show in Honduras, at least 53 percent live in poverty. In Nicaragua, it's 50 percent. In Guatemala, 75 percent. While 36 percent of Salvadorans live below the poverty line. And those numbers would be even worse without the billions of dollars wired home every year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: The Center for Immigration Studies says these poor countries are desperate for remittances, money that's actually fostered in a kind of welfare-dependency mentality. It's no wonder Mexico and Central America are so worried about movement in the United States to actually enforce immigration laws, Lou.
DOBBS: The language that we're hearing now from a lot of open borders advocates, so-called Hispanic advocacy groups -- they're far more than that, believe me -- it's starting to sound like they're reading from the same hymn book.
ROMANS: It really is. You read that long joint declaration from the Mexican Finance Ministry and these other Central American countries, closely mimics a lot of language we're hearing from here in the United States, as well from those very groups. DOBBS: And is it extraordinary that there is no -- so little recognition of the fact that the source of this problem is U.S. employers hiring illegal aliens with absolute impudence.
It's remarkable. And the way in which corporate America, led by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is basically saying, it's fine for corporate employers, for businesses, to hire illegal aliens because they need them for a work force. It is just extraordinary, rather than going to the legal source and say to the U.S. Congress, most of which they own anyway, "We want to raise legal immigration."
ROMANS: It certainly is remarkable.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Christine Romans.
Tonight, an important show of support for Costa Mesa, California, and its groundbreaking decision in our nation's border emergency. The nearby town of Cypress, California, says it will support Costa Mesa as it begins to enforcing federal immigration laws itself. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Border security activists converged on Cypress, California, to speak in favor of a proclamation supporting its Orange County neighbor, Costa Mesa.
Last week, Costa Mesa was the site of a hostile demonstration, as supporters of illegal aliens, all because the city voted to train police officers to help federal immigration authorities determine the immigration status of criminal suspects.
BERNARD CARROLL, ANAHEIM RESIDENT: I support the training as the only way that we at the grassroots will ever generate enough heat on our state and federal politicians to get them to do anything.
LARRY CULBERTSON, SAN JUAN CAPISTRANO RESIDENT: My personal brief is that all 15 million of the illegal aliens should be deported. Then we could talk about a temporary worker program. But even if your belief is less draconian, I would hope that you would approve of deporting criminal illegal aliens.
WIAN: Opponents tried to turn the debate into one about skin color, ethnicity, and language.
ROSALINDA GUILLEN, SANTA ANA RESIDENT: The proposal would increase the risk of racial profiling, which is prohibited by state and federal laws. Under the proposal, officers could question to detain immigrants they believe to be undocumented, targeting countless residents who may not look or sound American.
WIAN: Nonsense, says Mayor Pro Tem Phil Luebben, who has descended from and married to legal immigrants from Latin America.
MAYOR PRO TEM PHIL LUEBBEN, CYPRESS CITY COUNCIL: This is not an issue of race, this is not an issue of racism. This is not an issue of racial profiling. This is strictly a legal issue.
MIKE MCGILL, CYPRESS CITY COUNCIL: (inaudible) necessarily want to necessarily take over all of those federal immigration roles. I'd rather stick a sharp stick in the eye of our federal government and make them do their job.
TODD SEYMORE, CYPRESS CITY COUNCIL: I'm for legal immigration. Love to have you, great, but do it legally. Thank you.
WIAN: Council members unanimously approved a letter of support for Costa Mesa and for Orange County, which is also preparing to train its sheriff's deputies in immigration law enforcement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Though the vote was largely symbolic, it's another example of how cities, even those far from the border, are taking a stand on border security. Immigration and customs enforcement says its in discussions to train officers in dozens of local jurisdictions nationwide -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, this is a remarkable development, and while it is heartening to see that sanctuary laws are being rolled back and that local law enforcement is ending a lot of the nonsense surrounding the citizenship status, the legal status of criminal suspects, it is remarkable. The frustration with the federal government simply selling out to corporate America and to special interests on the issue of illegal immigration and border security.
WIAN: These grass roots organizations are very vocal. They're showing up at city council meetings all over the state and all over the country and they're not going to be cowed by these illegal alien supporters who come to these meetings and try to shout them down, Lou.
DOBBS: And shut them down, inevitably, invariably with the race card held prominently forward. It's galling.
WIAN: That's what a lot of people say, if you can't win the argument on the fact, you play the race card and that's what a lot of them are doing, Lou.
DOBBS: Casey Wian, thank you, Sir.
In Colorado tonight, debate is heating up over a proposed ballot measure there that would cut illegal aliens off from virtually all state services, excluding grade school education and emergency medical care.
Supporters of this measure say it would save Colorado millions of dollars in taxpayer money. Opponents say the cost of enforcement would be so high that Colorado would end up spending more than it would save.
Joining me tonight to discuss the issue is Wade Buchanan, he's the president of the Bell Policy Center, a group that is opposed to this initiative and Fred Elbel, the director of Defend Colorado Now, the group fighting to place the proposal on the 2006 ballot. Gentlemen, thanks for being here.
WADE BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, BELL POLICY CENTER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Let me begin if I may with you, Wade Buchanan. Why are you opposed to a measure that would stop state services to those in your state illegally?
BUCHANAN: Well, state services are already not allowed to go to people who are here illegally. And what our research shows is that in fact very few illegal immigrants are accessing services outside of the mandatory services that you mentioned. So...
DOBBS: ... Then the question is, to you Fred Elbel, why bother, if Wade is right?
FRED ELBEL, DIRECTOR, DEFEND COLORADO NOW: Well, I contend that the report itself is a little bit soft and all it does is collect information that has been published elsewhere. The fact is that Colorado citizens are fed up with the fact that our federal government, and even our state government are ignoring our laws and are allowing illegal immigration to continue.
DOBBS: Well, why are you tolerating congressmen, congresswomen, senators and legislators, who don't represent the views of the citizens of the state of Colorado then? Why don't you just throw them out?
ELBEL: Well, that's a little bit harder to do than, you know, obviously than you can imagine.
DOBBS: This is America. It ain't always supposed to be easy.
ELBEL: Yes, I know that.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Wade. If basically there's no issue here, you don't think there's any problem, why are you fight so hard against the ballot initiative?
BUCHANAN: Oh well, we're not -- all we've done is put out an issue brief to say that this is a group that wants to launch to, ascend to a costly statewide campaign over an issue that won't solve the problem. They have a solution that misses the mark entirely.
DOBBS: Well maybe -- OK, let's get to what is the problem in your judgment then?
BUCHANAN: The problem in my judgment is that we have national laws that say stay out and we have an economy that says come on in.
DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait. You're part of a think tank. Don't say we have an economy that says. You have employers illegally hiring illegal aliens and benefiting at taxpayer expense. Wouldn't you say that's a more specific way to put the issue?
BUCHANAN: No, I certainly wouldn't.
DOBBS: You wouldn't. How would you put it?
BUCHANAN: I would put it as saying that we have an economy that creates about 700,000 low-scale jobs.
DOBBS: I thought companies and businesses and employers created jobs.
BUCHANAN: They do, and they're part of the economy.
DOBBS: And they have to hire somebody if they've created a job, right?
BUCHANAN: Correct.
DOBBS: I'm not hiring illegally, why not do what everybody else in this country has to do, go through a legal process? Why you are excusing, rationalizing on economic terms what is an outright criminal act?
BUCHANAN: I am not rationalizing it.
DOBBS: You certainly are. You said the economy is speaking differently.
BUCHANAN: Well, it is speaking differently. And, look...
DOBBS: ... Now, people are not speaking honestly and that's one of the things on this broadcast we try to do. You know, I will certainly listen to every argument that you make, but please be straightforward and honest. What you're saying is people, you believe, obviously, should be able to hire in their businesses, others illegally?
BUCHANAN: No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we need to design a laws to serve the best interest of our economy.
DOBBS: Of the economy -- whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. We don't create laws to serve the interest of the economy, but create laws to serve the nation, to serve the American people.
BUCHANAN: The economy is the American people.
DOBBS: Government of the people, by the people, and for the people, Wade.
BUCHANAN: Lou, would you like my opinion or would you like to yell at me about this.
DOBBS: I want you to answer my question.
BUCHANAN: I am answering your question.
DOBBS: You think the laws are to serve the economy not people?
BUCHANAN: The laws are here to serve the people --
DOBBS: There, now -- go ahead, Wade. Now we're on the same page, partner. Go get 'em.
BUCHANAN: The people are the economy.
DOBBS: No, no, no.
BUCHANAN: Yes, they are.
People who work and they spend the money.
DOBBS: No, partner. There is an economy and there is a political system. And the fact is that that's why the framers of this nation wrote of the people, by the people, for the people. You remember that?
BUCHANAN: Of course.
DOBBS: Now talk to me about the economy because it's an independent issue.
BUCHANAN: Well, let me tell you about the economy.
DOBBS: Please.
BUCHANAN: This economy creates 700,000 low-scale jobs -- every year. The premise of the immigration policy is that most of those jobs should go to Americans, native-born folks. The fact of the matter is that there aren't many wanting to take those jobs.
DOBBS: Wait a minute, not native-born folks. Wait a minute, not native-born folks. U.S. citizens, naturalized or native-born.
BUCHANAN: Let me finish, Lou.
DOBBS: You have to say it right.
BUCHANAN: Your point is accurate. But the point I make is that with the aging of the baby boomers, with the freeing up of high-tech jobs and of higher-skilled jobs, we should be training our own people, our citizens, our naturalized citizens, our native-born citizens to take the higher-paid higher-skilled jobs.
DOBBS: You mean that are being outsourced to Asia right now?
BUCHANAN: If we don't have an economy that is -- or if we don't have a situation where low-skilled workers -- or if we have a situation where American citizens have to go for low-skilled job, that's a failure of our education system. Not a failure of our immigration policies.
DOBBS: All righty. Thank you for that. And Fred, you get the last word here.
ELBEL: Well, I'd like to point out that out in North Carolina, and this was our your show, Lou, that the University of North Carolina demonstrated that 63 percent of the Hispanics who moved to the states since 1995 are illegal aliens. They are depressing the economy there by two billion dollars in wages. What we want to ask here in Colorado is whether the taxpayers want to continue our taxpayer subsidy to cheap foreign labor, or whether they want their tax dollars to go to American citizens. And that's what this is all about.
DOBBS: Right, and again, Fred, I'd been arguing with you. You're not subsidizing those illegal aliens. Your subsidizing the businesses and the companies that are hiring them illegally. You're subsidizing people who are committing illegal acts and you're subsidizing both, in nearly every case, very low wages. Substandard wages that simply imposes poverty and exploitation.
It allows the people of the state of Colorado and frankly all of us to be a party to of what is a very ugly exploitive process.
ELBEL: Right.
DOBBS: We thank you very much, Fred, Wade.
And that brings us to the subject of our poll. The question, do you believe the Bush administration's decision to leave the borders wide open makes a mockery of something called "Homeland Security."
Cast your vote at loudobbs.com, we'll have the results coming up here later.
Still ahead, charges tonight that the U.S. military allowed Osama bin Laden to escape capture. My guest tonight, a former top CIA commander in Afghanistan.
And how Communist china is joining Japan and South Korea in the Asian assault on the U.S. automobile industry. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More than four years after September 11, the United States still has not captured Osama bin Laden. One of the best opportunities to have captured bin Laden came in the battle of Tora Bora in Afghanistan in late November and early December. And the CIA's field commander says it's a time the U.S. military failed to provide enough troops to capture the al Qaeda leader.
That field commander, Gary Berntsen. He is the author of a brilliant new book "Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and al Qaeda" He joins us here tonight. Good to have you with us.
GARY BERNTSEN, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Pleasure to be with you tonight, Lou.
DOBBS: Why did we fail to get him at Tora Bora.
BERNTSEN: Most people need to understand that after Kabul fell. I sent an eight man team into Nangahar province, where bin Laden had fled. The province was out of control. Large numbers of al Qaeda moving around in company-sized elements, Taliban. That eight-man team linked up with a warlord. Got down to the White Mountains and we put a four-man team of Americans, two CIA officers and two military officers folded into my team up on a mountain top over bin Laden and about 1,000 fighters that had fallen back with him. And they begun calling in air strikes for 56 hours on that --
DOBBS: And what was the effect.
BERNTSEN: We destroyed ultimately 75 percent of his force in those mountains.
DOBBS: And with that firepower, and you blame those who did not respond to your call for 800 special forces troops to secure the perimeter. And to stop his retreat.
BERNTSEN: We received, first off, a special forces team did come in and assist us by creating a triangle and used laser designators to call on air strikes. The U.S. military provided hundred of aircraft of this battle over 16 days and also sent Delta Force in. I had requested Rangers because I was concerned bin Laden would get out of the back door, so to speak.
DOBBS: You had just about everything that the United States military has to throw at it plus the resources of the CIA.
BERNTSEN: And a lot of Afghans we had put on line, but we didn't circle him. We were able to cover our side of the border. Ultimately, Pakistan would put 4,000 people up against the backside of the border. It would capture 130 of al Qaeda that got out, but bin Laden would get away.
DOBBS: Do you know how he got away?
Well, we know what tribe assisted him, and I have written about that and how he slid off.
DOBBS: And do you know why General Tommy Franks didn't respond to your request directly?
BERNTSEN: Well I sent my request back to CIA headquarters and also communicated with general officers on the ground in Afghanistan. It was a rapidly-moving situation. I think that, two, you have to remember, CIA and intelligence officers had not been on a battlefield operate like this since the OSS and it was their first time dealing with us like this. This was new for us as well. It was a shotgun wedding and it worked quite well.
DOBBS: And you lost officers as well in this.
BERNTSEN: We lost officers as well but not in Tora Bora. We lost officers in other places. Those U.S. Military that were on the ground fought like lions. Delta Force was remarkable. The special forces officers on our front lines kept us from being overrun by the Taliban.
DOBBS: The book is "Jawbreaker," and we thank you very much for being with us. We wish you a lot of success with it.
BERNTSEN: It's a pleasure, thank you, Lou.
BLITZER: Coming up on the top of the hour here on CNN, "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf, tell us all about it.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you very much, Lou. We're watching several important stories including a developing story. Another miner is trapped 900 feet below earth. Rescue workers on the scene right now trying to save him. We're going to be bringing you all the late-breaking developments.
Plus, Starbucks explosive. Who put that homemade bomb in the bathroom at a Starbucks? A look into the investigation in San Francisco.
And Osama bin Laden, inside the mind of the world's most wanted man from the people who know him personally. Find out why he couldn't be happier right now about what's going on in Iraq. All that coming up, Lou, right at the top of the hour.
DOBBS: Thank you, Wolf.
Coming up here, another cheap Chinese export headed for the United States. This one isn't even up to U.S. safety standards yet, but don't worry about it, it's all about free trade. Don't worry about our automobile industry, or middle-class workers. We love China. Our special report coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Communist China has arrived in Detroit and will try to be in your driveway soon. For the first time, an automobile made in China will find its way into the American marketplace. The company is called Geely, China's largest independent car maker. This week, they unveiled their new product for the U.S. market at the Detroit Auto Show. Bill Tucker has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Its name doesn't exactly roll off the tongue -- the MR-7151 ACK sedan. And the company's name invokes images of a bad J.Lo/Ben Affleck movie. And the car doesn't yet meet U.S. safety or emissions standards. But Geely is the first Chinese auto maker to show its wares at the Detroit Auto Show, a first in the show's 98-year history.
The company's chairman openly admits that quality is a problem, but he says in 18 months, the car will go on sale in America. No one expects an overnight success, but...
MALCOLM BRICKLIN, CHAIRMAN & CEO, VISIONARY VEHICLES: Five, 10 years from now, all the Chinese manufacturers who are now partners with all these joint ventures will be independent, will have their own factories, and will come in like Toyota and Nissan and Honda and Mitsubishi and Subaru did. TUCKER: Bricklin has announced his own plans for importing a lot of cars from China, starting with the Cherry.
For now, Ford, General Motors and Chrysler are clinging to the upper hand in the market; the big three owning 56 percent of the American market, versus 44 percent by the foreign automakers. Critics point out that in entering into their joint ventures with China, they have created a massive strategic blunder.
PETER MORICI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Their biggest enemy is themselves. They're in China and they're transferring technology and know-how. They are pushing their suppliers to go to China to lower their costs here so they can import components.
In the process of doing so, the General Motors and Ford are manufacturing competitors for themselves. In some ways, they are giving away the family jewels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: The Geely is expected to sell for under $10,000. Lou, that is a price made possible by the company's average cost per worker, which is around $3.50 an hour.
DOBBS: $3.50, oh, my gosh. Well, there's no problem. It's all about competition, right?
TUCKER: You bet.
DOBBS: Forget the living wage and a living standard. Thank you. Bill Tucker.
Still ahead, more of your thoughts on our broken borders and the culture of corruption in Washington. And we'll have the results of our poll. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll again, overwhelming: 97 percent of you say the Bush administration's decision to leave our borders wide open makes a mockery of something called homeland security.
More of your thoughts tonight. Nancy in Michigan wrote in to say: "It's outrageous that a San Antonio, Texas radio station," as we've reported, "is broadcasting locations of Border Patrol officers in order to warn illegal immigrants crossing the border. If the location of our cities' local police with radar guns were broadcast, there would be immediate arrest of the perpetrators. Why is our national security less important than local traffic laws?"
James in Tennessee: "Far worse than our broken borders has been the government's response. With both parties compromised by corporate cash, the ballot box is useless."
John in Tucson: "Between the neocons and the current trend in Latin America, the American people are between a rock and a hard place, and that place, the USA, has been mortgaged to China."
Marge in Connecticut said: "Lou, to watch our congressmen scrambling pitifully to give back their Abramoff dollars is almost laughable. I would much rather have them tell us which of their votes were bought with this money. The damage has been done. Giving the money back is hardly going to do any good at this point."
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. You'll receive a copy of my book, "Exporting America," if your e-mail is read here, and we thank you for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow when I'll be joined by the governor of the state of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty. He wants to give local police the power to enforce immigration laws. The police chief of Minneapolis disagrees. Both of them will be here. Please join us.
For all of us here, thanks for being here tonight. Good night from New York. "THE SITUATION ROOM" begins right now with Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.
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